BS as "innocent victim"

[OpenBook]

I can assure you that every person here who responds to you knows their relationship and is fully able to speak as to how it was. If they were happy, thought their ws was happy, but ws never told them otherwise, then who is responsible for that?

 

Do you not see how contradictory these two statements are?

[janedoe67]

Do you not see how contradictory these two statements are?

 

Actually no. When a WS is unhappy but doesn't have the character and cajones to SAY they are unhappy and make it clear it needs to be worked on, they cannot then hold the BS accountable for not reading their mind. People can only act on the info they have, and if the WS didn't give the BS the unhappiness info, that is the WS's fault.

[Got it]

Do you not see how contradictory these two statements are?

 

I think this is a great question. I have always wondered how well DO we know our SO, our relationships and even ourselves. I think a large number of people are not introspective enough to really even understand themselves, what they really think, feel, need, do that to truly understand others is very difficult.

 

I don't believe we really ever know someone else. Not fully. Since we are always learning about ourselves, it just doesn't seem plausible. We all live in facade of daily life, a routine we get into that doesn't require deep reconnecting with the other person.

 

I think we know what others want us to see and optionally all they see. But it isn't actually knowing them to their very core. The silver lining, you can continue learning and discovering new things. There is potentially always something new and exciting as we continue to discover ourselves through life.

[HermioneG]

Actually no. When a WS is unhappy but doesn't have the character and cajones to SAY they are unhappy and make it clear it needs to be worked on, they cannot then hold the BS accountable for not reading their mind. People can only act on the info they have, and if the WS didn't give the BS the unhappiness info, that is the WS's fault.

 

Yes.

 

Especially- and this is not true in every case, for sure, but in some situations, even more compounded by the eventual betrayed asking the wayward directly, and being told specifically that they are loved, and that relationship is very good and solid.

 

If someone ( not you, Jane- just a general you) asks a question and is told there is no issue, we are left with an icky result. Either the wayward is truthful, and the marriage is truly a good one, or the wayward lied, in response to a direct question.

 

Affairs. Messy.

[janedoe67]

here is what I mean by "let them know":

 

You tell them directly that you are unhappy and why

 

You say it more than once

 

You say it calmly and not in a ranting way that makes them defensive

 

You examine YOURSELF and see if there is something you can change that will make them more motivated to meet your needs/touch you/want to be with you/etc

 

You keep it on the front burner in an "I love you and want this to work way" and not a nagging way

 

You draw clear boundaries when you are reaching the end of your tolerance (I cannot remain in this situation much longer - something's gotta give)

 

You work HARD on your side of the street

 

If they DO move toward making changes, you recognize and encourage it.

 

IF a WS has done this and the BS still say - with their actions - I don't give a blank...it is still wrong to cheat.

 

That is when you leave.

 

If you DO cheat - YOU are responsible for cheating.

 

If the BS, however, says "the marriage was great, I just don't get it," you know that they are spouting "BS" of a different kind...but you lost all your ground when you cheated, so don't make that choice.

[Zenstudent]

Jane, your two latest posts were the best reads this week.

[Fluttershy]

In my husband's A I was conpletely innocent except that I enabled him. Even my FWH says it wasn't, in our case, the marriage that was lacking it was him, inside of him.

But am I always right or 100% "innocent". Nope. I have struggles like the next guy/gal.

 

But I am not a victim. I don't like feeling that way so yeah.

[rumbleseat]

When it comes to why a ws stays, there is an analogy that may be helpful.

 

Let's say I have an issue with my foot that is very painful but could be fixed by surgery. The surgery has an extremely good success rate at curing the problem.I know that I could end my pain at any time, yet for whatever reason, I decide against the surgery and opt to take anti inflammatory medication instead. It really doesn't fix anything in my foot, it just dulls the pain. It ruins my stomach and causes me to have problems there, but I choose to continue on anyway.

 

Who's fault is that?

 

My foot's or mine? Sure, maybe there are reasons such as fear, etc. that I opt not to fix the problem altogether, but my fear is 100% on me and no one else. The surgery was obviously not the most attractive option to me.

 

 

 

You can expect someone else to be responsible for your happiness or lack thereof. You can not expect someone else to be responsible for your choices.

 

The ws is no more a victim than the bs. If a bs is to be held responsible for whatever lousy decisions they may have made within the m,and I feel they should be, then the ws is just as responsible for their lousy choice to have an affair.

 

At some point, we are not longer children and we need to truly accept responsibility. That goes beyond lip service to actual change.

 

Some ws do it. Whether they stay in the m or not, they work damned hard on themselves and they come out the other side a better, happier person. It's gruelling work that is never easy, and they are very brave for undertaking it.

 

Some don't do this. Some choose to stay and blame the om/ow for making them cheat, while still others leave and blame their bs for making them cheat.

 

Either way, who is really to blame?

[experiencethedevine]

The wayward spouse takes full responsibility for the affair. It is a conscious choice no matter what supposed 'issues' may or may not be present in the marriage. Fact.

 

 

A spouse simply cannot be 'forced' into an affair. One could argue that it is possible to make the wayward wish to be elsewhere or with somebody else, but if the betrayer is unhappy, there are alternative choices to make other than engaging in clandestine activity, such as therapy, divorce and so forth.

 

 

It is common for a wayward to lay blame at the door of the betrayed as an excuse, but that is simply all it is. An excuse for a complete lack of ethical conscience, poor boundaries, and narcissistic tendencies.

 

 

It is counter-productive for a betrayed spouse to take any responsibility for the affair or any part of it. She/he cannot 'make' it happen, neither can she/he make an affair stop.

 

 

We can only make ourselves available for resolution of any supposed issues in the marriage, but even then, those inevitably being the excuses made by the wayward for the affair in the first place, they are going to be disproportionate and over inflated. More so if the affair is being defended, or continuing underground.

 

 

Is the betrayed spouse a victim? Persecuted clandestinely, absolutely.

[goodyblue]

Do you not see how contradictory these two statements are?

 

This. (ten characters)

[goodyblue]

Quiet, I appreciated your post so much. I am just thinking about it. I don't want to say anything until I've seriously thought on it.

[kaylan]

So I see this all the time on LS. BS always portrayed as the innocent victim. It is like an automatic given. Spouse cheated. Poor H/W. End of analysis. Well what about all of the sins leading up to the WS's A. What about years or even decades of lies, narcissism, emotional abuse or physical neglect? Why is BS miraculously baptized in the wake of infidelity? Not only does it seem like they get a free pass from the past, but moving forward are absolved from any further wrongdoings because WS will NEVER be right or worthy in their eyes again. If they ever were to begin with.

Seems like dishonest people are looking for a way to slander the betrayed.

 

Sorry, not gonna work. Dont pull the betrayed person down with you. People who cheat, and people who help others cheat, need to own up to their garbage without painting others badly.

 

Dont project.

[goodyblue]

Seems like dishonest people are looking for a way to slander the betrayed.

 

Sorry, not gonna work. Dont pull the betrayed person down with you. People who cheat, and people who help others cheat, need to own up to their garbage without painting others badly.

 

Dont project.

 

 

Of course. BS's are innocent of any wrong doing in the marriage. Enjoy your blindness.

[whichwayisup]

Of course. BS's are innocent of any wrong doing in the marriage. Enjoy your blindness.

 

Please stop saying this as it's NOT true. Nobody has ever said ALL WRONG DOING in the marriage is ALL WS's spouses fault and the BS is innocent.

 

BS's are NOT to blame for their husbands or wives choosing to cheat.

 

It is not a BS's fault that a WS chose to have an affair.

 

Each person in the marriage is responsible for their part in the demise of the marriage. Most will not argue that. The blame of having an affair lays at the feet of the person actually cheating.

[dreamingoftigers]

Of course. BS's are innocent of any wrong doing in the marriage. Enjoy your blindness.

 

That's the same line of logic as saying:

 

"The married person must've cheated because their spouse is an axe murderer. So if you want To find an axe murderer, see if their spouse is cheating."

 

Ridiculous.

Diagnosing one person by another's actions.

[janedoe67]

I think I just realized why this can sometimes be a "sore topic" from the WS's or AP's perspective...

 

I have no problem agreeing that the choice to cheat is 100% on a WS. The WS - regardless of what they might have been going through or whatever - did have a choice. And we CHOSE to betray. That is very clear to me.

 

I think my frustration comes from this:

 

I hear many BS who will SAY "yes both parties may have contributed to the state of the marriage"...but then it is left there. Everything else is about the A. I do get that, but at some point, if there is going to be ANY reconciliation, the brief "yes both parties" must be addressed. It seems sometimes that the implication is "Yes, maybe I helped make my marriage bad, but their A trumps that so it is no longer relevant."

 

I realize that is not always the case and that I am probably sensitive to that because I worked like crazy and was truly repentant and NOTHING in our M from his end changed. But that is probably where a lot of the "but" comes from on the WS/AP end.

 

I have no idea if I expressed myself well.

[cocorico]

I think I just realized why this can sometimes be a "sore topic" from the WS's or AP's perspective...

 

I have no problem agreeing that the choice to cheat is 100% on a WS. The WS - regardless of what they might have been going through or whatever - did have a choice. And we CHOSE to betray. That is very clear to me.

 

I think my frustration comes from this:

 

I hear many BS who will SAY "yes both parties may have contributed to the state of the marriage"...but then it is left there. Everything else is about the A. I do get that, but at some point, if there is going to be ANY reconciliation, the brief "yes both parties" must be addressed. It seems sometimes that the implication is "Yes, maybe I helped make my marriage bad, but their A trumps that so it is no longer relevant."

 

I realize that is not always the case and that I am probably sensitive to that because I worked like crazy and was truly repentant and NOTHING in our M from his end changed. But that is probably where a lot of the "but" comes from on the WS/AP end.

 

I have no idea if I expressed myself well.

 

 

Exactly!

 

.

[OpenBook]

I hear many BS who will SAY "yes both parties may have contributed to the state of the marriage"...but then it is left there. Everything else is about the A. I do get that, but at some point, if there is going to be ANY reconciliation, the brief "yes both parties" must be addressed. It seems sometimes that the implication is "Yes, maybe I helped make my marriage bad, but their A trumps that so it is no longer relevant."

 

I realize that is not always the case and that I am probably sensitive to that because I worked like crazy and was truly repentant and NOTHING in our M from his end changed. But that is probably where a lot of the "but" comes from on the WS/AP end.

 

This is why I'm bewildered too - the notion that there is NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between the state of the M and the infidelity. It boggles my mind.

[rumbleseat]

So everyone can blame their poor choices on someone else? ow far are we to take this?

 

Let's say a man gets married. He loved the woman enough at the time, and thought enough about her to take that step. Unless it was an arrnaged marriage, he must have felt something for her and tough she met his needs.

 

Ten years down the road, he feels she's been treating him badly, and he has an A.

 

His ow uses the rationalization that "he only cheated because she treated him badly and he had no other choice".

 

let's apply that to their marriage. Can we say that she only treated him badly because he pushed her in to it and she felt she had no other choice? What was it about the M that morphed her into the shrew he paints her as? Is this correct?

 

According the logic of " MM only treated her badly because of the way she treated him"

 

Personally, an this is just my own wild and crazy opinion here, if a bs is being told they should accept responsibility for their contribution state of the marriage, then the ws needs to accept full responsibility for their part and also for their decision to have an A rather than leave.

 

No one forced the ws to stay. No one forced the ws to cheat, and no one forced him or her to either leave the marriage or stay and reconcile. They made those decisions themselves.

 

I know it's easy for the om/ow and also the bs to blame someone else for the ws's actions, but that is misplaced blame.

 

We call this concept being an adult.

[waterwoman]

I think I just realized why this can sometimes be a "sore topic" from the WS's or AP's perspective...

 

I have no problem agreeing that the choice to cheat is 100% on a WS. The WS - regardless of what they might have been going through or whatever - did have a choice. And we CHOSE to betray. That is very clear to me.

 

I think my frustration comes from this:

 

I hear many BS who will SAY "yes both parties may have contributed to the state of the marriage"...but then it is left there. Everything else is about the A. I do get that, but at some point, if there is going to be ANY reconciliation, the brief "yes both parties" must be addressed. It seems sometimes that the implication is "Yes, maybe I helped make my marriage bad, but their A trumps that so it is no longer relevant."

 

I realize that is not always the case and that I am probably sensitive to that because I worked like crazy and was truly repentant and NOTHING in our M from his end changed. But that is probably where a lot of the "but" comes from on the WS/AP end.

 

I have no idea if I expressed myself well.

 

I can see that must be frustrating. Can you also see how frustrating it is when APs insist the BS MUST have been responsible for the failures in the marriage when they simply were not. I have asked H many many times to tell me what i was doing wrong....he can't come up with anything (Oh he gets pissed off when I use the hair dryer when he's listening to the radio in the morning!). I can see things that weren't right but no matter how many times I ask him he won't blame me for anything. Because he sees that any issues were 50% him and 50% me - so none of it was 'my' fault and most of the time he didn't see that anything WAS wrong. If anything I was the most unhappy and had been for a while. TBH I still am a little. But any conversation I have about making things better is a bloody monologue. It's like listening to a play by Beckett - lots of long silences and tangential comments. Arrgghhhhhh!!!!!!! if we don't make it it won't my for want of trying on my part.

[janedoe67]

So everyone can blame their poor choices on someone else?

 

I may not have expressed myself perfectly, but no objective person could read what I wrote and conclude I meant THIS.

 

That is another frustration. I am trying to be honest and helpful, but since I am a FWW of course I MUST be justifying. That gets old.

 

The BS IS an innocent victim of an A. They may or may not be innocent in the state of the marriage. And regardless of how well they recover from the A due to the WS's remorse and work, if the MARRIAGE ISSUES are not at some point addressed, it will NOT be a good marriage....and an honest person cannot look at the big picture and blame everything on the A.

[dreamingoftigers]

I think I just realized why this can sometimes be a "sore topic" from the WS's or AP's perspective...

 

I have no problem agreeing that the choice to cheat is 100% on a WS. The WS - regardless of what they might have been going through or whatever - did have a choice. And we CHOSE to betray. That is very clear to me.

 

I think my frustration comes from this:

 

I hear many BS who will SAY "yes both parties may have contributed to the state of the marriage"...but then it is left there. Everything else is about the A. I do get that, but at some point, if there is going to be ANY reconciliation, the brief "yes both parties" must be addressed. It seems sometimes that the implication is "Yes, maybe I helped make my marriage bad, but their A trumps that so it is no longer relevant."

 

I realize that is not always the case and that I am probably sensitive to that because I worked like crazy and was truly repentant and NOTHING in our M from his end changed. But that is probably where a lot of the "but" comes from on the WS/AP end.

 

I have no idea if I expressed myself well.

 

I think you did beautifully.

 

I could agree.

I can only speak from my own marriage.

I find my husband's expectations to be, well, ridiculous.

 

He expects me to support him because "we are a team." But I find he does very, very little (if anything) to support or even know what my dreams ARE.

 

I currently make more than he does which translates to: "if I want anything, you can get it for me regardless of cost of effort or time away from our family. If you want something go and get it because you make more than I do."

 

But he costs. A LOT. And he rarely works more than a 10 hour work week and now he is in school part-time without a way to fund it unless I come up with it. He never resolved his funding issues and because "I make more" I am automatically expected to cover his unilateral decisions.

 

Yet, he continues to expect more "over and above" the example listed.

 

He has done *some* work to deal with the aftermath of his cheating. But honestly *very little* and he has been proactive about exactly NONE of it.

 

And shown very little empathy for my feelings.

 

But the second the undealt-with cheating comes up, out come the "well you don't clean up enough blah blah blah." Regardless of the fact that we split household chores I typically did 80+% of my list and he typically.....made breakfast.

When we'd fight about chores he would always give me the same excuse: " I don't even know where the list is." It's on the fridge. It isn't hiding under anything. He can locate bacon in the fridge at will. Like a bee to a flower. But he cannot for the life of him locate the very obvious household chore list directly on the front of the fridge. And in his mind, somewhere, this appears to be an acceptable excuse for the living room being a recreation of wartime Dresden. If there was a package of bacon hiding under the couch cushions, he would be in there like Wolverine ripping them apart. But the household list..... ..yeah.....the uncrackable code it seems.

 

I have no problem with him raising marital concerns. NONE in fact. HOWEVER, it seems that he:

 

A) Completely, on all accounts, fails to account for what HE is investing before complaining about my "lack of investment."

B) Shares these concerns SPECIFICALLY when I bring any up about him. As a "hey we cancel each other out." No. We don't. And my concerns have only grown and festered because of his avoidance.

C) fails to validate the myriad of things I have put into the marriage. They are not just not appreciated. They are rarely even recognized.

D) Does not stick to his end of agreements. Often with a very lame excuse. But still expects me to anticipate his needs and figure out his stuff. But don't dare cross that thin, beige line into managing it.

E) talks to me like I am some crazy, controlling b*tch like his mother. I am not. In fact, I think we are polar opposites. I think he uses verbal abuse to "keep me from controlling him" like his mother did. Thus, HE actually acts just like his mother. Who does whatever she wants, has lame excuses for it, but has sky-high expectations of others. Coincidentally, her husband is a nice, charismatic man that tries to please her and she verbally and publicly abuses him.

F) He has actually just texted me to transfer him some more money during the time I have typed this post.

 

If he has concerns, fine.

But he keeps expecting my corner to be spotless while patently refusing to invest in cleaning his own corner. I realize that a lot of this is emotional immaturity and conflict-avoidance. That's why I have been patient.

 

But to be honest, I see this pattern SO OFTEN with WS.

 

Honestly, WS, don't even come to your spouse with your demands unless you have something tp show them. Why should your spouse keep caring when you won't pull your half?

 

Jane. I am not directly applying this to you.

[dreamingoftigers]

This is why I'm bewildered too - the notion that there is NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between the state of the M and the infidelity. It boggles my mind.

 

There is a connection.

 

In a high-percentage of cases it is the OVERBENEFITTING spouse that cheats.

 

As frustrating as it is to think about, I would probably have acquired a happier and more stable marriage if I concerned myself MUCH LESS with my spouse's needs.

[rumbleseat]

I may not have expressed myself perfectly, but no objective person could read what I wrote and conclude I meant THIS.

 

That is another frustration. I am trying to be honest and helpful, but since I am a FWW of course I MUST be justifying. That gets old.

 

The BS IS an innocent victim of an A. They may or may not be innocent in the state of the marriage. And regardless of how well they recover from the A due to the WS's remorse and work, if the MARRIAGE ISSUES are not at some point addressed, it will NOT be a good marriage....and an honest person cannot look at the big picture and blame everything on the A.

 

Actually, there are cases where the M was going along well, but the ws had personal issues that had nothing to do with the bs or the M. Whatever stressor hits, and they end up in a state where an affair could happen much more easily than otherwise.

 

There are some bs out there who really are quite nasty ( although I always wonder why the ws ever married them in the first place if they are that horrific) and thing really are awful. In this situation, the ws had two choices; stay and endure the poor treatment or leave for a better life. They chose to stay. That is on them.

 

As for the idea that by pointing out that the ws is responsible for their choice to have an affair , the bs is somehow trying to absolve themselves of responsibility for the state of the marriage, that's bs ( and I don't mean betrayed spouse). As most who have successfully reconciled will tell you, there is a whole lot of work to do to repair the damage and move onwards and upwards.

[dreamingoftigers]

If anything I was the most unhappy and had been for a while. TBH I still am a little. But any conversation I have about making things better is a bloody monologue. It's like listening to a play by Beckett - lots of long silences and tangential comments. Arrgghhhhhh!!!!!!! if we don't make it it won't my for want of trying on my part.

 

I feel this so much.

 

I am sick of hearing MYSELF trying to work this out.

 

I've tried to talk about everything OPENLY and KINDLY so many times.

I have also "given him space" to "work on it himself" for MONTHS at a time.

 

TBH. I am on the way home now and I want to start planning to pack up and separate again.

I am worried that when I arrive that I will fall under the spell and just get even older before I claim any kind of life for myself.

 

But these years are precious and I want to spend them raising my four-year old daughter. Not ckeaning up after my 35-year-old teenage "son."