BS as "innocent victim"

[Sub]

It's just so strange to me. I really can't figure out why it is, that some people won't accept that some people act destructively because of issues within them selves. Every action just HAS to be caused by a negative action from someone else?

 

I've asked the question several times, but no one seems to have an answer.

 

It's not just that, though. There are so many variables involved. My WW wasn't looking for an affair. She confided in an old "friend" about some issues we were having. The old "friend" had a thing for her from way back. Her other friend was in her ear convincing her I was having an A with a student. It turned into a perfect storm. We're all vulnerable to missteps at times. The reasons for the vulnerability, and those missteps, aren't as cut and dry as most make it out to be.

[ThatMan]

Hey inappfriendly. I have to wonder if you are heading in the correct direction to heal and move on from how you've been treated in a past relationship. I cannot imagine how a spouse treated you to feel this way and how much you've struggled with this. I understand that there is plenty of hurt and blame, but if you really feel serious about moving on with your life to be happy again, then you should not constantly seek out a justification for your actions. Instead of pointing a finger, why not simply talk about what experiences have been painful for you and give yourself a moment to grieve before moving on?

 

Did you know that abuse is so consistent that there is quite literally a universal playbook? Cycle Of Violence - Domestic Violence

 

Whenever you quite literally point a finger there are three digits on your hand facing directly towards yourself. I do not know if you've ever pursued individual therapy before, but in clinical psychology there is a term called projective identification.

 

Projective identification is the unconscious act of attributing something inside ourselves to someone else.And abusers possess elements of projective identification to the point where we can reasonably anticipate that an abuser will blame their victim. The predictability has reached the point where every abuse counselor is specifically trained to know than an abuser will blame their victims. This includes not only those wayward spouses like us who commit adultery to get even, but also men who wail on their wives with closed fists, "You've done this! You've made me do this to you! You. You. You."

 

How badly do you want to continue being miserable, toxic to be around, and flat out negative? Go outside. Get a real job. Do something constructive with your life. The only thing I see you doing is seeking out like-minded individuals do affirm your screwed up model of the world. Seek help from a genuine professional if you want to actually work through the pain of how that one spouse treated you. Don't sit here in a circle trying to reinforce a pathetic belief-system with other cheaters who are perfectly content in remaining miserable with their lives.

[HermioneG]

It's not just that, though. There are so many variables involved. My WW wasn't looking for an affair. She confided in an old "friend" about some issues we were having. The old "friend" had a thing for her from way back. Her other friend was in her ear convincing her I was having an A with a student. It turned into a perfect storm. We're all vulnerable to missteps at times. The reasons for the vulnerability, and those missteps, aren't as cut and dry as most make it out to be.

 

But had her boundaries been healthy, her friends could have whispered whatever they wanted to say about you in her ear, and she would have brushed it away, set a boundary, been honest, and stopped the conversation.

 

Which means- at the end of the day, still her choice.

[dreamingoftigers]

Completely untrue. Do you think people are just soooo happy, sniffing the daisies, loving their spouse, life is easy, and they just see a 22 year old blonde and go "Oh man, I just gotta get me some of that". Please give me a break.

 

The two are completely related. It's just that people don't want it to be because that would mean facing the true issues, not just one mistake. All the others fall by the wayside, just like I said. It is sad.

 

Some people with emotional maturity issues do.

Like my husband who blatantly said he thought our marriage was great and fun but he could have it all. He could live "like a married man and a single guy too." He was shocked at how hurt I eas at his infidelity. To the point of resent. Because then the marriage "wasn't fun" and he had to "sneak and feel guilty." And "why couldn't we just forget about it."

 

But God help him if I ever cheated.

He has (historically) resolutely refused to work on the marital and personal issues but instead would rage when I cried or ripped me down saying I was "so negative and untrusting."

 

Long-suffering? Hah. He had EVERYTHING he wanted, at the expense of everyone else.

 

It wasn't until his ass hit the cold pavement that he realized what he was missing out on.

[inappfriendly]

"How badly do you want to continue being miserable, toxic to be around, and flat out negative? Go outside. Get a real job. Do something constructive with your life. The only thing I see you doing is seeking out like-minded individuals do affirm your screwed up model of the world. Seek help from a genuine professional if you want to actually work through the pain of how that one spouse treated you. Don't sit here in a circle trying to reinforce a pathetic belief-system with other cheaters who are perfectly content in remaining miserable with their lives."

 

Really, ThatMan? YOU are going to give ME grief about projecting?! Don't you think your analysis of me as negative and toxic is just slightly hypocritical?!

I admit that I am here to gain perspective. Why are YOU here? From your posts, it seems to criticize and condemn.

 

Sad times, Dude. Lighten the eff up or at the very least, reply in a constructive fashion! To do otherwise is just self-serving and mean.

[Sub]

But had her boundaries been healthy, her friends could have whispered whatever they wanted to say about you in her ear, and she would have brushed it away, set a boundary, been honest, and stopped the conversation.

 

Which means- at the end of the day, still her choice.

 

Oh, definitely. I'm not absolving her. I'm just trying to illustrate that it's not as simple as one "cause/effect" scenario.

[mea_M]

I hear you. I tend to look at it this way. Any relationship is a two way street. It takes two to tango & there are to sides to every coin!

 

Mea

[HermioneG]

Oh, definitely. I'm not absolving her. I'm just trying to illustrate that it's not as simple as one "cause/effect" scenario.

 

For sure. I totally agree.

[confusedandhurt2002]

An affair is justified how? EVER? Walk out. Get a divorce. Break it off. Whatever you need to do. An affair is completely destroying a person from the inside out. It is the ultimate evil. It is an attempt to make a person feel less like a woman or a man fee less like a man. Guessing you are a cheater. If you weren't, you wouldn't be defending it. Good luck with that. Hope you're never on the other end and if you are I hope it hurts like hell.

[Trimmer]

So I see this all the time on LS. BS always portrayed as the innocent victim. It is like an automatic given. Spouse cheated. Poor H/W. End of analysis.

 

But who is the authority on which party hurts most, suffers longest or offends the worst? Isn't it more personal than universal which sins are more damning than others?

And yet, you are the one trying to make universal generalizations about what happens "all the time on LS. BS always portrayed as the innocent victim."

 

In your own words, isn't each situation more personal and individual, than universal?

 

Just my opinion. Don't worry, I know nobody will look at this and take in that quote, take it to heart and realize it would be best for them. They'll get defensive.

Ah, so if I don't agree with you, there's something wrong with me? Actually, I do agree with much of what you said - if a BS is not going to be able to move on, if things are just going to be years of torture and end up stuck in the same rut, then why subject yourselves? Go ahead and bail. But then I would say the very same thing to the poor, beleaguered WS imagined in the opening post: if the WS is suffering, miserable - even abused, as the OP posits - why the heck stay with it, and furthermore: why the heck throw another bomb onto an already devastated mess by cheating? In that scenario, I don't propose that anyone is blameless, but I also don't generalize that scenario and project it onto "all" BS or WS.

 

I appreciate the responses. Even the nasty ones. The topic is loaded and I understand the strong feelings it evokes across the board. Reading individual stories helps with perspective. It is the generalizations regarding this particular experience that inspired the start of the thread. My intention was NOT to place blame on each and every BS, mine included. Simply to acknowledge that betrayal comes in different forms.

Well, that would have been a good way to start the thread, instead of "BS always portrayed as the innocent victim. It is like an automatic given." The words always and automatic kinda, sorta do make it sound like you were saying each and every BS, don't you think?

Edited January 22, 2014 by Trimmer

[Confused48]

Completely untrue. Do you think people are just soooo happy, sniffing the daisies, loving their spouse, life is easy, and they just see a 22 year old blonde and go "Oh man, I just gotta get me some of that". Please give me a break.

 

Seriously? If you spend anytime on LS you will see posts by WS that say their BS was perfect. Their M was perfect. They screwed it up by having an affair.

 

It happens or you would not hear about it from the WS. I'm not saying its the most common thing since probably majority of all M both parties have something they are not happy about. But it does happen.

 

Even in M's that are unhappy, I still think the reason for the A is the person having the A was damaged in some way to be vulnerable to it. Even if they were in a 100% happy M, they still would have had an A, given the same level of temptation.

[inappfriendly]

Y'all do more investigative work than prosecuting attornies! I like that. I can hear the hurt in your posts and I am sorry for your pain. I also don't mind taking a brow-beating. I deserve at least that.

All comments are fair and appreciated as long as they are not blatantly rude or disrespectful. There is really no need for that as we clearly have no personal relationship. Let's keep it Classy, LS.

[NYWoman]

Just get a divorce sounds so easy.

 

My H and I made equal amounts, sure he paid half of the bills, but he felt the rest of his pay was his to play with. And play he did. Out of state fishing and golf trips costs in the thousands of dollars and left him with very little to put away for retirement and a 401K.

 

I paid thousands for my divorce and that snake felt that he had a right to half of my 401k. He didn't get it but it cost me more thousands.

 

As for the sex, whilst courting he was a good lover, after the vows he was extremely selfish. In short I had 18 years of a sexless marriage, years I will never get back.

 

Some men deserve to be cheated on

[goodyblue]

My guy went through similar, even in his divorce. He lost a lot. But for him it was worth getting it over with. Of course we know that really, it wasn't okay to cheat. It was a mistake... but that doesn't mean that we can't simply see WHY it occurred. I'm not saying it happens ALL the time, but a lot of the time, there are reasons.

[BetrayedH]

...the orthodoxy on LS is to assume (sometimes even after proof to the contrary) that *all* BS are automatically innocent of *any* wrongdoing in the R. The A just wipes the slate clean, and they are immediately sanctified.

 

Really? "All BSs are automatically innocent of any wrongdoing...and they are immediately sanctified?" I'd love to see an example of that. If there's any common theme amongst the BSs that I read, it's that the BS gets to own 50% of the marital problems but the wayward owns 100% of the decision to cheat. Where I would concur with you is that many times the marital problems end up taking a backseat when an affair comes to light. But in most cases I've seen, BSs do try to multi-task, addressing both the affair and any marital problems that existed prior to the affair. Most BSs are perfectly willing to acknowledge the existence of marital challenges and will attend MC in an attempt to address them. They just wisely refuse to conflate the two as cause and effect. The ultimate cause of cheating is making a choice to cheat. Under the same circumstances, others don't make that choice.

[goodyblue]

So... treating the spouse horribly, that's a marital issue, not an issue with the offending spouse. Ignoring the spouse, denying sex, emotional intimacy etc. is also a marital issue and not an issue with the offending spouse. But the infidelity, well dang, THAT is the fault of the offending spouse and the other things had no play. Wow.

[whichwayisup]

the orthodoxy on LS is to assume (sometimes even after proof to the contrary) that *all* BS are automatically innocent of *any* wrongdoing in the R. The A just wipes the slate clean, and they are immediately sanctified.

This is just your opinion, doesn't mean it's the truth. I think there's an exaggeration though. Show me a thread that proves your point.

 

Most BS's on here have shared their issues IN the marriage, owned their part in problems etc., not sure I've ever seen what you are claiming. (bolded part).

[whichwayisup]

So... treating the spouse horribly, that's a marital issue, not an issue with the offending spouse. Ignoring the spouse, denying sex, emotional intimacy etc. is also a marital issue and not an issue with the offending spouse. But the infidelity, well dang, THAT is the fault of the offending spouse and the other things had no play. Wow.

 

This seems to be more your situation and experience with the BS, not so many on here.

 

Read the actual infidelity stories, I don't see it? That the BS is nasty to their WS, enough that he/she has to go and cheat because of emotional abuse. Again this also falls on the shoulders of the WS, why not divorce. Speak up and LEAVE! Get the F out if one is being abused, denied sex, treated poorly, treated with no respect at all.

[Shepp]

In my book as soon as someone cheats I lose sympathy, harsh but there you go.

 

They didn't deal with whatever problem in there relationship and to me cheating is a choice that can't be pinned on anyone else.

 

That said it certainly doesn't make the BS perfect or an innocent victim of the relationship break down, I do think it makes them an innocent victim of the affair.

[yellowmaverick]

So... treating the spouse horribly, that's a marital issue, not an issue with the offending spouse. Ignoring the spouse, denying sex, emotional intimacy etc. is also a marital issue and not an issue with the offending spouse. But the infidelity, well dang, THAT is the fault of the offending spouse and the other things had no play. Wow.

 

 

Yes, ALL of those things - including financial irresponsibility, lack of parental involvement, and more - were a part of my M. A spouse certainly WAS treated badly - ME. Yet, HE is the one who cheated. I put up with his selfishness because of my kids, because of my vows. And, honestly, I never had an expectation that a M was supposed to be perfect - I was pretty realistic.

 

Everyone who knew us, including mutual friends and his own mother, would agree that I was the one who got the raw deal out of the M, even before the A.

 

I wasn't perfect, especially after the A was revealed, but I can sleep at night. I can get up every day and face myself in the mirror. I would take that over the "highs" of an affair any day.

[Zenstudent]

Yes, ALL of those things - including financial irresponsibility, lack of parental involvement, and more - were a part of my M. A spouse certainly WAS treated badly - ME. Yet, HE is the one who cheated. I put up with his selfishness because of my kids, because of my vows. And, honestly, I never had an expectation that a M was supposed to be perfect - I was pretty realistic.

Everyone who knew us, including mutual friends and his own mother, would agree that I was the one who got the raw deal out of the M, even before the A.

 

I wasn't perfect, especially after the A was revealed, but I can sleep at night. I can get up every day and face myself in the mirror. I would take that over the "highs" of an affair any day.

The above bolded, I guess, could often be a major component to infidelity - unrealistic and sometimes un-communicated expectations.

[peaksandvalleys]

So I see this all the time on LS. BS always portrayed as the innocent victim. It is like an automatic given. Spouse cheated. Poor H/W. End of analysis. Well what about all of the sins leading up to the WS's A. What about years or even decades of lies, narcissism, emotional abuse or physical neglect? Why is BS miraculously baptized in the wake of infidelity? Not only does it seem like they get a free pass from the past, but moving forward are absolved from any further wrongdoings because WS will NEVER be right or worthy in their eyes again. If they ever were to begin with.

 

 

What about the years/decades? MY life was taken from me. My health was jeopardized. My children were lied to. My finances were jeopardized. I detached from a painful marriage. So I deserved to live a life of lies for decades?MY WS will never be right or worthy of anything ever again in his entire miserable life. I hope he gets just that...nothing. NO love, NO respect, NOT the truth. Just die alone a miserable poor broke piece of crap that he is.

[whichwayisup]

That said it certainly doesn't make the BS perfect or an innocent victim of the relationship break down, I do think it makes them an innocent victim of the affair.

 

Everybody I think can agree with this, especially the bolded. ^^

[ThatMan]

Just get a divorce sounds so easy.

 

My H and I made equal amounts, sure he paid half of the bills, but he felt the rest of his pay was his to play with. And play he did. Out of state fishing and golf trips costs in the thousands of dollars and left him with very little to put away for retirement and a 401K.

 

I paid thousands for my divorce and that snake felt that he had a right to half of my 401k. He didn't get it but it cost me more thousands.

 

As for the sex, whilst courting he was a good lover, after the vows he was extremely selfish. In short I had 18 years of a sexless marriage, years I will never get back.

 

Some men deserve to be cheated on

 

Your story reminds me of a few others.

There was this one woman who needed a few smacks across her pretty little face. She was great at first. But then she wouldn't put out any sex, she enjoyed solitary nights out without me, and she was otherwise being difficult.

 

Some women deserve to be struck.

 

Empowerment begins with us as individuals. I have a good friend who struggled much in the similar fashion as you. So for everything that we can say, stories like what you've experienced really are incredibly painful and often feel hopeless. But you still had options. So did my friend who never cheated on anyone. She could have chosen to file for bankruptcy, live in a shelter, invest more money into relocating while meeting the needs of her children. But she chose to stay in the same household as her former husband until the divorce could be finalized. She empowered herself by choosing what was best for her, even if it wasn't ideal.

 

Holding the belief that people deserve mistreatment is tantamount to abusive behavior. Abuse counselors really are trained to recognize not only do abusers blame their victims, but also both people in this position feel trapped and hopeless, just like you did in your story. That's why this is a pretty huge deal to claim that people deserve to be hit, struck, cheated on, or hurt. Holding this belief system ruins lives and ends relationships. Treating potential spouses this way fosters destructive behaviors and isolation.

 

Let me tell you, in no uncertain terms, that wayward spouses do move on to lead a more fulfilling life. Some reconcile by strengthening a relationship to be open and loving. Some move forward and foster new relationships free from mistreatment, abuse, and infidelity. The wayward spouses who do move on have put in hard work and determination to challenged their own preconceptions and belief system. They lead happy and fulfilling lives.

 

Wayward spouses like you and the original poster remain exactly where you are. You've come here to reaffirm the belief that some people deserve to be cheated on. While other people focus entirely on fault and blame rather than focus on themselves to make changes. For wayward spouses to gather in a circle to reaffirm their dysfunction is vile and disgusting.

[MissBee]

So I see this all the time on LS. BS always portrayed as the innocent victim. It is like an automatic given. Spouse cheated. Poor H/W. End of analysis. Well what about all of the sins leading up to the WS's A. What about years or even decades of lies, narcissism, emotional abuse or physical neglect? Why is BS miraculously baptized in the wake of infidelity? Not only does it seem like they get a free pass from the past, but moving forward are absolved from any further wrongdoings because WS will NEVER be right or worthy in their eyes again. If they ever were to begin with.

 

 

I think the problem with statements like yours is that

 

1. On LS, they are usually made by the OW (not even OM so much) currently in the affair or pining after the MP, so that already comes with a huge bias. It's a second hand tale their MM told them who is cheating, so already all of that is suspect. It's like in court, you can't bring hearsay into your case. If the other party isn't there to say what they did or hasn't sent in a written statement, then it isn't "evidence" or a fact, it's simply a speculation that is inadmissible. And clearly in the case of OW who want MM or MM who wants to cheat, a reasonable person would take any complaints with a grain of salt.

 

2. Statements like that seem to suggest that an affair is a result of someone else's behavior and not a choice of action that some people choose and others don't.I don't subscribe to the philosophy that an affair is a result of someone else doing something wrong. This is NOT the same as saying BS is flawless and has no issues. This is simply saying the choice to have an affair is the choice to have an affair, it's not a choice helping the situation, and whatever someone else did wrong doesn't really all of a sudden mean the affair is okay.

 

I always think of when kids get into trouble they say "But Tommy made me do it, but Jim did it too, but such and such." A smart parent would point out that what Tommy did or didn't do has nothing to do with your child's free will to act as an independent person.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right and usually it seems like when people are talking about the affair, the OW esp, not even the MP, wants to deflect and say "But the BS did this and that"...again this is back to the hearsay thing and being a former OW, I knew nothing about her and what she did or didn't do, so cannot understand why OW want to go to bat for MM against the BS. But I also get it on another hand why they would but that dynamic wasn't there for me. In my own case, in my mom's case, in lots of cases, even with the few WS's here, I hardly ever hear that the BS is this horrible person doing all this. If I round up the WS's posts here...the lot of them are "There is no spark, we're roommates, co-parents, I don't want a divorce though, nothing is wrong but it's not amazing, blah blah"....RARE is it the case of abuse and whatever other atrocity you mentioned....so again...it seems like some kind of search for something horrible to excuse the affair instead of saying, cheating is a bad way to deal with your marriage problems, the choice is the cheater's choice and no one "made" them do it.

 

The marriage problems and if the BS is narcissistic, abusive etc are the BS and MM's issue to fix. When it comes on to the actual affair, that's on the WS. And it certainly isn't on the OW. But I get that it does feel better to think the MM isn't so bad since he is only responding to being treated badly. I wanted that too in my A...unfortunately it wasn't the case. He never uttered a bad word about her but was still in an affair nevertheless and when I asked he admitted that nothing was wrong with their relationship. I am sorry, I do not believe, neither has the LS sample or real life proven that majority of WS's are victims of abuse etc. It's often a TWO-WAY street and this post for me seems like it's trying to address the two ways, but it's not, it's turning it around to blame the BS and complain about them as the victims...which I honestly don't see why it bothers an OW so much.

 

The LS issue again is that these stories are told by the OW who often hears from the MM....I mean come on...no one knows if they are lies, truths, exaggerations, so I don't pay attention to that as much. As usually how it unfolds is someone who has never met this woman (the OW) but heard from the cheating person is telling it vehemently or there are so many holes and from my experience here on LS with OW coming back and finding out lots of these things were lies...I don't see a benefit in assuming it's true. Even if it is true, as I am sure in some cases it is, I am uncertain of why that's the OW's issue or why addressing MM's cheating means the BS is absolved??

 

I just see it as a whole bunch of deflecting, as with any situation of being a "victim" of something, it doesn't mean you've never done anything wrong in life, but regardless, you are a victim of the particular thing being discussed and if the particular action is wrong, it's still wrong regardless.

 

BS being flawed doesn't make cheating right.

 

BS being flawed doesn't make MM not flawed, I'm sure he is too.

 

OW coming to LS to tell us about BS's flaws = suspect and not OW's problem

 

OW often knows part of the story and is ready to swear on all things sacred that it's the truth and that poor MM is justa victim= suspect.

 

Cheating and it's attendant problems can be addressed without that meaning that BS has no flaws and is absolved of other issues.

 

Cheating only compounds marital problems and adds to any existing flaws and OW pointing out BS's flaws doesn't really solve anything either. WS and BS need to address their marriage without input of OW.

 

And finally: cheating and secret relationships are convoluted as hell and often leave things clouded in hearsay, smokescreens and partial truths, so given that, always be suspicious and esp when it comes to going to bat, please think twice before going to bat for your MM when you most likely don't know the whole truth. Be in the affair, enjoy, leave the BS out of it though is my own philosophy, it makes things a lot simpler for you that way. Being OW and marriage counselor is not a good plan.

Edited January 22, 2014 by MissBee