"Truth is a foreign concept to the human mind."

[M30USA]

For the past several weeks I've had this phrase floating through my mind. As far as I know, it's not a quote and nobody has said it. But I've been repeating it in my mind as I'm laying in bed and throughout the day. I think it's possible that the Holy Spirit is speaking to me in a non-audible way.

 

 

I have always believed that humans are born sinful. Lately I have been thinking about the idea that truth, itself, is not even comprehendible by the natural human mind. Furthermore, the ONLY avenue by which we can discover truth is via the Holy Spirit. That is it. No others. Zero, zip, zilch. Even with things that are "scientific", the correct interpretation of data cannot be done without the holy spirit. This explains why two scientists looking at the SAME data can draw different conclusions--one in favor of God (like Isaac Newton) the other against God (like 90% of scientists today).

 

 

Everything that man knows and understands is for his own self interest. This, by necessity, blinds him from truth, since truth is objective and does not depend upon self interest. This is also why Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He was the ONLY person to have ever lived a life without self-interest. Instead of following his own desires (since he was in fact a man), he followed the will of the Father 100%. And when he left, he sent the Holy Spirit. This is literally his spirit on earth, speaking to those of us who will hear it.

 

 

Without the holy spirit, you can bank on the fact that EVERY single one of our thoughts is erroneous, self-centered, and distorted. This even applies to Christians. We don't get a free pass as if we are special. If WE don't listen to the Holy Spirit in every facet of our lives, we are no better off than the rest of the unbelieving world.

[jba10582]

As I understand some Hindu's also believe the Earth is a middling world between full of good and evil (like the Yin and the Yang) and hence a place between ignorance and truth and Jnana Yoga is a path to God through Knowledge. As I also read about Buddhism the 10 fetters that bind humans to suffering, and the 10th (higher) fetter is that of being free of ignorance which is eerily similar to Christianity's own version NIV John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

[M30USA]

As I understand some Hindu's also believe the Earth is a middling world between full of good and evil (like the Yin and the Yang) and hence a place between ignorance and truth and Jnana Yoga is a path to God through Knowledge. As I also read about Buddhism the 10 fetters that bind humans to suffering, and the 10th (higher) fetter is that of being free of ignorance which is eerily similar to Christianity's own version NIV John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

 

The Bible does not teach that good and evil are equal and opposing forces. God is supreme and self-existing. It's Satan which is dependent upon God and leeches off his goodness. If good didnt exist, neither would evil. However, if evil didnt exist, good would continue to exist.

 

The problem is that in our current world, God had allowed and willed it for evil to have a temporary stay here. In his wisdom he is letting it accomish a greater purpose for the sake of his chosen people. God has full control over satan and evil, and he could eliminate it at any point. Therefore evil is inferior and transient. This differs from Buddhism and every other religion.

Edited January 24, 2014 by M30USA

[TaraMaiden]

Buddhism differs from every other religion in that it holds no God to be permanent or omnipotent.

 

The Buddha gave us 4 Noble truths.

'Noble' in the sense of indisputable.

 

But that's the only non-variable truth I know of. Everything else has moveable goalposts, and can only be classified as personal perception and a person's 'personal' self-creditable truth.

 

Speaking as a Buddhist, and not out to pick a fight here.....

 

noble

ˈnəʊb(ə)l/

Adjective

1.

belonging by rank, title, or birth to the aristocracy.

"the medieval palace was once owned by a noble Florentine family"

synonyms: aristocratic, noble-born, of noble birth, titled, patrician, blue-blooded, high-born, well born;

antonyms: humble

 

2.

having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral principles.

"the promotion of human rights was a noble aspiration"

synonyms: righteous, virtuous, good, honourable, honest, upright, upstanding, decent, worthy, noble-minded, uncorrupted, anti-corruption, moral, ethical, reputable, magnanimous, unselfish, generous, self-sacrificing, brave, lofty, exalted, elevated, grand, sublime, imposing

antonyms: dishonourable, ignoble, base

of imposing or magnificent size or appearance.

"noble arches and massive granite columns"

synonyms: magnificent, splendid, grand, stately, imposing, dignified, distinguished, proud, striking, impressive, majestic, glorious, marvellous, awe-inspiring, awesome, monumental, palatial, statuesque, heroic; More

antonyms: unimpressive

 

of excellent or superior quality.

"Chardonnay is the noble grape from which some of the finest white wines are produced"

synonyms: excellent, splendid, marvellous, magnificent, superb, fine, wonderful, exceptional, formidable, sublime, prime, first-class, first-rate, high-grade, grade A, superior, supreme, flawless, choice, select, finest, superlative, model;

antonyms: poor

[Clair93]

I have always believed that humans are born sinful. Lately I have been thinking about the idea that truth, itself, is not even comprehendible by the natural human mind. Furthermore, the ONLY avenue by which we can discover truth is via the Holy Spirit. That is it. No others. Zero, zip, zilch. Even with things that are "scientific", the correct interpretation of data cannot be done without the holy spirit. This explains why two scientists looking at the SAME data can draw different conclusions--one in favor of God (like Isaac Newton) the other against God (like 90% of scientists today).

 

Just a correction, this is not what science is about. Science is not about finding truth, science is about finding what is not the truth. This is called Phenomenological Epistemology which is the basis of science. Science doesn't enter the world of drawing conclusions, that's personal opinion of scientists.

 

About the rest of your comments, I think it's just another Presuppositional apologetics argument in a bizarre way, e.g. You can't know the truth unless you believe in the same things we do.

[jba10582]

Just a correction, this is not what science is about. Science is not about finding truth, science is about finding what is not the truth. This is called Phenomenological Epistemology which is the basis of science. Science doesn't enter the world of drawing conclusions, that's personal opinion of scientists.

 

and a lot of engineering is trying to make something work safely, efficiently, for dirt cheap and have it done two weeks ago before you even get the right information.

[M30USA]

Just a correction, this is not what science is about. Science is not about finding truth, science is about finding what is not the truth. This is called Phenomenological Epistemology which is the basis of science. Science doesn't enter the world of drawing conclusions, that's personal opinion of scientists.

 

About the rest of your comments, I think it's just another Presuppositional apologetics argument in a bizarre way, e.g. You can't know the truth unless you believe in the same things we do.

 

You are correct. Science is merely observation. Did I ever say it should be otherwise?

[Clair93]

You are correct. Science is merely observation. Did I ever say it should be otherwise?

 

You said correct interpretation of data cannot be done without the holy spirit and your reasoning for that was that scientists draw different conclusions reading the data so there's no way to know what's true. But there are ways to know what's not true, therefore correct interpretation of the data can in fact be done without any need for the holy spirit (or Zeus).

[M30USA]

You said correct interpretation of data cannot be done without the holy spirit and your reasoning for that was that scientists draw different conclusions reading the data so there's no way to know what's true. But there are ways to know what's not true, therefore correct interpretation of the data can in fact be done without any need for the holy spirit (or Zeus).

 

Scientists can theorize. That was my point.

[Clair93]

Scientists can theorize. That was my point.

 

And test those theories to see if they're wrong... there's no need for a holy spirit in that.

[M30USA]

And test those theories to see if they're wrong... there's no need for a holy spirit in that.

 

By "testing", we are still talking about observation.

 

Don't confuse that with theorizing and drawing philosophical conclusions.

[pureinheart]

For the past several weeks I've had this phrase floating through my mind. As far as I know, it's not a quote and nobody has said it. But I've been repeating it in my mind as I'm laying in bed and throughout the day. I think it's possible that the Holy Spirit is speaking to me in a non-audible way.

 

 

I have always believed that humans are born sinful. Lately I have been thinking about the idea that truth, itself, is not even comprehendible by the natural human mind. Furthermore, the ONLY avenue by which we can discover truth is via the Holy Spirit. That is it. No others. Zero, zip, zilch. Even with things that are "scientific", the correct interpretation of data cannot be done without the holy spirit. This explains why two scientists looking at the SAME data can draw different conclusions--one in favor of God (like Isaac Newton) the other against God (like 90% of scientists today).

 

 

Everything that man knows and understands is for his own self interest. This, by necessity, blinds him from truth, since truth is objective and does not depend upon self interest. This is also why Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He was the ONLY person to have ever lived a life without self-interest. Instead of following his own desires (since he was in fact a man), he followed the will of the Father 100%. And when he left, he sent the Holy Spirit. This is literally his spirit on earth, speaking to those of us who will hear it.

 

 

Without the holy spirit, you can bank on the fact that EVERY single one of our thoughts is erroneous, self-centered, and distorted. This even applies to Christians. We don't get a free pass as if we are special. If WE don't listen to the Holy Spirit in every facet of our lives, we are no better off than the rest of the unbelieving world.

 

Excellent. During many points in my life I would have told you that I had attained near spiritual perfection, or at least on the right road towards it…lol…deception at it finest.

 

In analyzing my thought process, then and now, either there has been a major deterioration or I was simply deceived on some very high levels then. Granted more experiences can make one a cynic and possibly a hater, but I am not happy with my thought process as of late- thinking taking off the rose colored glasses possibly had something to do with it.

 

Kudos to you M30, as I strongly believe God has us right where He wants us…now if you will excuse me, I need to repent for the rest of my life:)

[jba10582]

I believe intuition in particular is the source of a lot of creative insights into a lot of complex academic fields of science, mathematics, engineering, medicine ect. I know the greatest insights I ever had after really thinking about a difficult problem for weeks came to with a flash of insight while I was sleeping or once I awoke. One may argue that the source of the powerful alighment of facts could come from a higher source.

 

Was reading about intution in particular and how some of the Christian Mystics relied on this "power", whether it be from a super-conscious mindset, the holy spirit, or something else I do not know....and do not want to interject to much on THAT because I know in some sects of religions other sects are often rejected for certain beliefs ect.

[M30USA]

Clair93,

 

I caught your little equating of Zeus to the Holy Spirit.

 

It's interesting you brought that up because I can actually prove to you, Biblically and historically, that Zeus is Satan. It's just another human name given to him.

[Clair93]

By "testing", we are still talking about observation.

 

Don't confuse that with theorizing and drawing philosophical conclusions.

 

Drawing philosophical conclusions is NOT the same thing as interpreting the data, this is something you're confusing I think.

 

You may need an ideology to validate your philosophical conclusions against, but there's no need for a holy spirit or whatever supernatural to understand if our theories (which are formed by interpreting the data) are matching our observations.

 

Clair93,

 

I caught your little equating of Zeus to the Holy Spirit.

 

It's interesting you brought that up because I can actually prove to you, Biblically and historically, that Zeus is Satan. It's just another human name given to him.

 

So replace Zeus with Thor I picked it randomly. To me they're all the same thing: claims that have yet to meet their burden of proof.

[jba10582]

have you heard the joke about the scientist who was testing a frog...

 

he conditioned the frog to jump whenever he heard the word "jump", much like pavlov, the frog could jump 4 feet with four legs...the scientist cut one leg off and observed that with three legs the frog could jump 3 feet, the scientist then cut off one more leg and observed that the frog could jump 2 feet with two legs, the scientist then cut off one more leg and observed that the frog could jump 1 feet with one leg...lastly the scientist cut off the final leg and observed that when he shouted jump the frog could not jump and noted that the when you cut off four legs of frog the frog became deaf.

[Sidz]

 

I have always believed that humans are born sinful. Lately I have been thinking about the idea that truth, itself, is not even comprehendible by the natural human mind. Furthermore, the ONLY avenue by which we can discover truth is via the Holy Spirit. That is it. No others. Zero, zip, zilch. Even with things that are "scientific", the correct interpretation of data cannot be done without the holy spirit. This explains why two scientists looking at the SAME data can draw different conclusions--one in favor of God (like Isaac Newton) the other against God (like 90% of scientists today).

 

 

The difference between your reasoning to that of those of a scientific mind is, I think, most scientists don't view their data as being against God because they don't presuppose that there is one. It is your notion about the nature of God that leads you to view data as being against God. I find this burdensome to our efforts to view things as they simply are, which is hard enough.

[M30USA]

Drawing philosophical conclusions is NOT the same thing as interpreting the data, this is something you're confusing I think.

 

 

Oh, brother. Let's just clear this up and put an end to this tangent:

 

 

Science equals observation. Nothing more. Hypotheses can be tested based on further observation.

 

 

Once we step outside of mere observation, we get into the area of philosophy. Much science has been infiltrated with philosophy. An example would be: "There is so much order in the universe, so there has to be a God." While I do agree with that statement, it's still a jump from science/observation to philosophy. The people on the other side do the same thing. An example would be: "Biology appears to evolve based on genetic mutation, so there cannot be a God." Again, a leap from science/observation to philosophy.

 

 

My only point was that the Holy Spirit is the ONLY source from which we can draw CORRECT philosophy. If we don't have the Holy Spirit, we will make observations (through science) and draw the wrong philosophical conclusions. Even the Bible follows this rule. To one person, Scripture is foolishness. To another, it's the powerful and inspired written Word of God.

 

 

So replace Zeus with Thor I picked it randomly. To me they're all the same thing: claims that have yet to meet their burden of proof.

 

 

Zeus is the highest god in ancient Greek mythology. It's interesting that all these Greek gods engaged in immoral, human-like behaviors such as orgies and senseless violence. It's also interesting that Zeus (and other Greek gods) are portrayed in sculptures as human in appearance. This is a trait of angels in the Bible. Zeus was the highest fallen angel. Thus Zeus was Lucifer/Satan.

 

 

All of the Greek gods are a mythologized version of the Biblical account in Genesis 6 and II Peter 2 where fallen angels abandoned their positions in heaven, came to earth, defiled themselves with human women, and had hybrid offspring (half human, half god). Their offspring in mythology are called "demi-gods" or "titans". An example would be Hercules. The Bible calls them "Nephilim". An example would be Goliath.

 

 

As Biblical evidence, we can read:

 

 

“To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

 

These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives." (Revelation 2:12-13)

 

 

Anyone who studies ancient history will discover that the biggest religious building in Pergamum was the Temple/Altar of Zeus. People went there to worship Zeus. Connect this to the fact that Revelation 2 says Satan lives in Pergamum, and you have a strong tie between Satan and Zeus.

[TaraMaiden]

His Holiness the Dalai Lama has very strong and close connections with various centres of research throughout Asia, Europe and the USA.

He has famously stated that,

 

My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.

The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality (2005)

 

and -

 

 

If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change. In my view, science and Buddhism share a search for the truth and for understanding reality. By learning from science about aspects of reality where its understanding may be more advanced, I believe that Buddhism enriches its own worldview.

The New York Times (12 November 2005)

 

So far, in all the years that he has cultivated this close connection, no Scientific data has arisen to negate one iota of Buddhist teaching or philosophy.

[happydate]

For the past several weeks I've had this phrase floating through my mind. As far as I know, it's not a quote and nobody has said it. But I've been repeating it in my mind as I'm laying in bed and throughout the day. I think it's possible that the Holy Spirit is speaking to me in a non-audible way.

 

 

I have always believed that humans are born sinful. Lately I have been thinking about the idea that truth, itself, is not even comprehendible by the natural human mind. Furthermore, the ONLY avenue by which we can discover truth is via the Holy Spirit. That is it. No others. Zero, zip, zilch. Even with things that are "scientific", the correct interpretation of data cannot be done without the holy spirit. This explains why two scientists looking at the SAME data can draw different conclusions--one in favor of God (like Isaac Newton) the other against God (like 90% of scientists today).

 

 

Everything that man knows and understands is for his own self interest. This, by necessity, blinds him from truth, since truth is objective and does not depend upon self interest. This is also why Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He was the ONLY person to have ever lived a life without self-interest. Instead of following his own desires (since he was in fact a man), he followed the will of the Father 100%. And when he left, he sent the Holy Spirit. This is literally his spirit on earth, speaking to those of us who will hear it.

 

 

Without the holy spirit, you can bank on the fact that EVERY single one of our thoughts is erroneous, self-centered, and distorted. This even applies to Christians. We don't get a free pass as if we are special. If WE don't listen to the Holy Spirit in every facet of our lives, we are no better off than the rest of the unbelieving world.

 

Universal truth is a foreign concept to the human mind, because the human mind is made to think. It has both "EGO" and "PRIDE". There is no "EGO" and "PRIDE" in the spiritual realm.

 

Jesus has always said all spiritual paths will lead to God. Some religion do not believe in one god; but that is the truth.

 

Most spiritual people are in a state of "DOING" rather than in a state of "BEING". If you are in a state of "DOING" then you will never see the spiritual truth and your identity in this world rather than BEING one with the Universe and being one with what you believe. I see many spiritual people who are extremely well versed in the teachings and following their masters, doing what a disciple is doing. Doing to try and become the way to Jesus Christ or Guatama Buddha or whatever. Rather the truth that all human beings should try and heal thyself (Luke 4:23 passage -- Physicians heal thyself!) of your own EGO and PRIDE and let your ego serves as your humble servant as the holy spirit guides you in this world rather than the master of your destiny which many spiritual DOERS are doing today. Many spiritual people follow an outside diety, an outside master/teacher where in fact, this arrangement is ONLY temporary. The arrangement is between you and the spiritual guide, be it a spirit guide or if you have the highest privilege of working with an ascended master or a council of many ascended master. That is the only truth of the path, because an ascended master speaks the truth. An outside master or teacher of fame will always cloud his teachings with a little bit of his EGO and his PRIDE, whereas an ascended master in the spiritual world or the holy spirit DOES NOT!

 

The reason why scientists can not prove the existence of God is the fact that God has free will and that he operates at a different vibration rate and dimension than our physical world and he can choose to show himself or not. He sent his son, Jesus Christ, to this world 2000 years ago and look what human beings then did to him! So how can you measure something that's not even in the same physical plane? Some scientists and doctors have a pure connection with God and the Universe and that they can commune freely with the knowledge that can be deployed for the good of mankind. Knowledge that humans may finally be dispelled from the bondage of EGO and PRIDE for all spiritual paths will eventually lead you closer to God or the Universe if you prefer it to be generic.

 

By the way in the spiritual world, Jesus Christ and Guatama Buddha are brothers. They are very close! Jesus Christ had also studied early Buddhism and a host of others, so he's not all that foreign to other religions during his missing years.

Edited January 25, 2014 by happydate

[M30USA]

Jesus has always said all spiritual paths will lead to God.

 

What!?

 

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me..." (John 14:6 ESV)

 

I suppose you are playing off the word "spiritual" by saying that all spiritual paths lead to God--as opposed to the flesh. That is a partial truth. The spirit is, indeed, the way to God. But not even all spiritual paths lead to God. There are evil spirits, aren't there? The Bible says that some who believe they are praying to God are actually praying to demons if they are not praying via Jesus Christ. So how can you say all spiritual paths lead to God?

 

A little humor:

 

All roads lead to Rome...which is why so few people get there.

[happydate]

What!?

 

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me..." (John 14:6 ESV)

 

I suppose you are playing off the word "spiritual" by saying that all spiritual paths lead to God--as opposed to the flesh. That is a partial truth. The spirit is, indeed, the way to God. But not even all spiritual paths lead to God. There are evil spirits, aren't there? The Bible says that some who believe they are praying to God are actually praying to demons if they are not praying via Jesus Christ. So how can you say all spiritual paths lead to God?

 

A little humor:

 

All roads lead to Rome...which is why so few people get there.

 

 

That is correct. When you leave this earth and your spirit returns to the light (heaven), this gate is held by Jesus Christ or whatever diety you believe in be it Prophet Mohammed or Guatama Buddha or etc.

 

Jesus also said that the "Kingdom of God is within all of us", which meant to signify that you can always commune with the Lord within yourself. You don't need to go to church, mosque, temple etc.. to seek whatever you seek. It's always inside of you, so technically everyone's own action can LEAD ONESELF back to God.

 

Most people don't know how to pray properly, because most of the time they pray because they are in trouble, unhappy, angry, helpless etc... They are praying to God behaving like a bunch of sobbing victims!! Victims DO NOT get their prayers answered. Empowered beings do. When you are in an unhappy state, Satan and his demonic beings will take over your being and will seemingly fulfill your wishes only to cause you to be MORE angry, MORE despair, MORE depressed! Satan always takes you to the path away from God. However, God lets this happen because of his law of free will.

 

Most people do what they please with their free will, but eventually when you get burned long enough, you will seek forgiveness and enlightenment. You and I did that with the sex and porn addiction. How would I be enlightened if I didn't pursue and treat women like cum buckets and realize that acts leads no where but to fulfill the wishes of Satan and his demonic beings?

 

Most people are angry. This world is filled full with anger and hatred and power. It's the nature of things in this world. Being happy and child like is NOT conducive in winning and being in power in this world; although that's not the truth either. The truth is, we are the children of God and that when we return to the heavens, we revert ourselves from being full of EGO and Prideful to be children. Does young children have lots of EGO and PRIDE? Then why do you say all human beings are born of sin?!?

 

Young children turned in the adults we know today with lots of EGO and PRIDE because of societal pressures. Nothing to do with God nor is God's doing. Humans cause human suffering -- not God. Being with God will lessen your suffering and a hence all human beings who walk the natural path like little children did will eventually lead themselves back to God. And that Jesus Christ will openly welcome those who return back to the heavens.

[M30USA]

Deception is always based on half-truths. You are deceived on this particular subject, happydate. Scripture confirms your error.

 

FYI, your oft-quoted Luke 17:20-21 is most OFTEN translated as "the Kingdom of Heaven is already AMONG you" and refers to the presence of Christ at that time among them. In other verses he did the same thing by making reference to himself in their presence and the kingdom being "in your midst" before he departed.

Edited January 25, 2014 by M30USA

[happydate]

Deception is always based on half-truths. You are deceived on this particular subject, happydate. Scripture confirms your error.

 

Which is why spiritual wars on this physical plane are fought today -- Christianity against Muslims. Hint hint. Isn't this war being fought between humans of different factions for ages?!? Pitting one god against another. Pitting one human belief against another. All in the name of good.

 

But good is a human creation. Christians deemed is good to kill the infidels because they are not Christians in the Crusades. So is that a deception on the part of the Christian faith? Is there a deception going with our United States of America claiming muslim nations possess weapons of mass destruction in the name of and excuse to kill muslims because someone hate something? This world is full of half-truths because the leaders are trying to get you not the see the truth; the Kingdom of God is full of truths.

 

You claimed yourself to be communing with the holy spirit and yet you aspire to follow outer conditions, a scripture that's written 2000 years ago. You have not learned and healed your inner conditions, for if you seek within yourself you will see that my interpretation is the interpretation from the Lord.

 

Blessings.

Edited January 25, 2014 by happydate

[M30USA]

Which is why spiritual wars on this physical plane are fought today -- Christianity against Muslims. Hint hint. Isn't this war being fought between humans of different factions for ages?!? Pitting one god against another. Pitting one human belief against another. All in the name of good.

 

But good is a human creation. Christians deemed is good to kill the infidels because they are not Christians in the Crusades. So is that a deception on the part of the Christian faith. Is there a deception going with our United States of America claiming muslim nations possess weapons of mass destruction in the name of and excuse to kill muslims because someone hate something? This world is full of half-truths; the Kingdom of God is full of truths.

 

You claimed yourself to be communing with the holy spirit and yet you aspire to follow outer condition, a scripture that's written 2000 years ago. You have not learned and healed your inner conditions, for if you seek within yourself you will see that my interpretation is the interpretation from the Lord.

 

Blessings.

 

If all spiritual paths lead to God, then the following verse makes zero sense:

 

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." (Ephesians 6:12 ESV)

 

Clearly there are evil forces in high, spiritual places--according to this verse. Otherwise we'd have good spiritual forces fighting against themselves. As Jesus said, a house divided against itself does not stand.

 

Do you see your error?

 

Lastly, you say that WE are creating this conflict. No we are not. The conflict had been waging before humans were even created. In fact we are the focal point of THEIR conflict. We didnt create it. I am not being negative or divisive by pointing it out. It's already there. I'm just showing it by quoting Scripture.

Edited January 25, 2014 by M30USA