"Truth is a foreign concept to the human mind."

[TheFinalWord]

no more than you elucidated with "good, solid teacher of truth" - I assumed that was your opinion, since you provided no evidence to show that your comment was based on anything else.

 

Besides, I think you well know that Charlie had a somewhat rumpatious marital relationship, and divorce.

 

And, as I said, just saying'…

 

I think this is faulty logic (a form of ad hominem attack, i.e. kill the messanger)

 

Does the truth of a message lose meaning b/c it is delivered by a faulty messenger? A claim should be examined on its own merits, not based on who delivers it.

 

If a overweight person trainer accurately conveys to someone how to lose weight, does the fact the trainer is their self overweight have any bearing on the physiological facts of how weight loss occurs? It might expose their own hypocrisy, but the fact remains a fact in spite of the hypocrisy (a basic requirement of salvation is recognizing our own hypocrisy). We see this a lot on these forums, in which someone will give dating advice and another poster will discredit their advice b/c of their personal relationship past.

 

Does the fact someone has a failed marriage have any bearing on the relevancy of their marriage advice? It might if they are mixing in personal opinion (contextualizing marriage only within their personal experiences) with fact. But their personal history shouldn't be the way to test their claim. To do so is a form of logical fallacy called ad hominem in which the person's character, rather than their claim, is attacked in order to discredit them. It might demonstrate they cannot accurately execute, however, it does not mean their advice is in and of itself faulty.

 

In our human mind it can be difficult to separate the message from the messenger. However, that is one of the purposes of science..to independently test a claim, despite authorities or messenger.

[beach]

Do you think Jesus was married?

 

Do you know what happened to him between ages 12-30?

 

If Jesus was Jewish why is Christianity so set in stone for you?

 

Do you view "other religions" as inferior to your view of Christianity?

Edited January 31, 2014 by beach

[pureinheart]

no more than you elucidated with "good, solid teacher of truth" - I assumed that was your opinion, since you provided no evidence to show that your comment was based on anything else.

 

Besides, I think you well know that Charlie had a somewhat rumpatious marital relationship, and divorce.

 

And, as I said, just saying'…

 

LOL M, M30 spoke the truth. I've followed CS since 1987, he was one of the first teachers that gave me a wonderful foundation to build on.

 

I remember hearing something of the divorce, although did not want to get caught up in possible gossip of who did what when, where and how. People divorce and who's to say that tabloids are/were speaking absolute truth- guaranteed no one but the two in the marriage was there 24/7. We can make observations if we are in the mix, but often even observations can be partial.

 

Every case is different, and in this case, I felt it better to leave this part of his life between God, CS, and his wife. My gut feeling at that time was that something didn't ring well with the slander coming down. If memory serves to be correct, CS was saying nothing, it seemed to all be coming from his wife.

 

I've personally been in this situation before (many times) and chose to remain silent as it was well enough for me to know the truth and felt no need to defend myself. Hey, it sure is a good way to know who your real friends are!

[mukkrakker]

You'd do yourself a favor by listening to him

 

That would be like you reading a book on evolution...

[mukkrakker]

Every case is different, and in this case, I felt it better to leave this part of his life between God, CS, and his wife.

 

Well that's very decent of you, and I take on board TheFinalWord's comments, nevertheless, in this forum, the holy than thou quotations from the bible overlook the very substantive evidence that those giving the world their pearls of wisdom, an especially their vaulted leaders and shamans, are themselves flawed.

 

Now you are going to tell me that everyone is a sinner and striving towards goodness is God's path for your salvation.

 

I'm just wondering with the overwhelming history of inhuman actions in the name of religion why we can't all just agree that it just isn't working; that to be a better human being does not require enslavement to the supernatural.

 

The sooner we all start living in the real world, the world of nature, reality, then the quicker we will find heaven on earth.

[M30USA]

Well that's very decent of you, and I take on board TheFinalWord's comments, nevertheless, in this forum, the holy than thou quotations from the bible overlook the very substantive evidence that those giving the world their pearls of wisdom, an especially their vaulted leaders and shamans, are themselves flawed.

 

Now you are going to tell me that everyone is a sinner and striving towards goodness is God's path for your salvation.

 

I'm just wondering with the overwhelming history of inhuman ctions in the name of religion why we can't all just agree that it just isn't working; that to be a better human being does not require enslavement to the supernatural.

 

The sooner we all start living in the real world, the world of nature, reality, then the quicker we will find heaven on earth.

 

Is that the case?

 

I've pointed out on this forum many times that less than 1% of all state-related deaths via war/tyranny in the 20th century were by religious nations. More than 99% were by atheist or communist states. (That's not a hyperbole, that's a verifiable statistic.)

 

And congratulations, your observation that humans are sinful merely proves Jesus was correct. Now who will save YOU from your sins?

Edited January 31, 2014 by M30USA

[mukkrakker]

less than 1% of all state-related deaths via war/tyranny in the 20th century were by religious nations

 

Jesus Christ, this is just such BS it doesn't deserve a rebuttal.

 

your observation that humans are sinful merely proves Jesus was correct

 

No, it only proves that he agrees with me, we both could be wrong.

 

Now who will save YOU from your sins?

 

Well me of course!

[M30USA]

Muckraker (definition): one who searches out and publicly exposes real or apparent misconduct of a prominent individual or business.

 

Gosh, I should have known just by your screen name what you are all about. The joke is on me now. Good luck with your endeavors. There's plenty of muck in the world to rake. You might have better success if you team up with Satan--he's called "the accuser of the brethren".

 

Take care.

Edited January 31, 2014 by M30USA

[mukkrakker]

if you team up with Satan

 

Team up? Dude, that old parody can't keep up with me.

[pureinheart]

Well that's very decent of you, and I take on board TheFinalWord's comments, nevertheless, in this forum, the holy than thou quotations from the bible overlook the very substantive evidence that those giving the world their pearls of wisdom, an especially their vaulted leaders and shamans, are themselves flawed.

 

Now you are going to tell me that everyone is a sinner and striving towards goodness is God's path for your salvation.

 

I'm just wondering with the overwhelming history of inhuman actions in the name of religion why we can't all just agree that it just isn't working; that to be a better human being does not require enslavement to the supernatural.

 

The sooner we all start living in the real world, the world of nature, reality, then the quicker we will find heaven on earth.

 

I can't speak for everyone as far as seeking goodness, although I do believe that we are all sinners/fallible. I seek goodness, but attaining it is a different story. Through self examination I see more of how dark my heart really is and it's very disturbing. More and more I find that nothing in me is good per se- the only good thing is Jesus. My own thoughts and efforts are pathetic to say the least.

 

Knowing the above statement could sound like I'm really either very down on myself (low self esteem) or an attempt at fake humility. It's just the truth.

 

I was very happy to see that M30 had started this thread due to the fact that I had been thinking the same as of late.

 

I hope you can find heaven on earth, although I don't think that's possible. If this earth were heaven I'd be really screwed!

[pureinheart]

Is that the case?

 

I've pointed out on this forum many times that less than 1% of all state-related deaths via war/tyranny in the 20th century were by religious nations. More than 99% were by atheist or communist states. (That's not a hyperbole, that's a verifiable statistic.)

 

And congratulations, your observation that humans are sinful merely proves Jesus was correct. Now who will save YOU from your sins?

 

This is very valuable info. May I ask what thread contains this info:D

[Eggplant]

Eggplant, In the twin paradox, one twin returns to find his brother long dead. Surely we can agree that this is real and not just a matter of perception.

Yes. I didn't mean to imply that all of special relativity was just a extension of the mountain. People can be different ages at the same point in space-time who were the same age at another point in space-time.

In my first post I indicated that this is a technical issue. But it does speak to the notion of absolute truth in a fundamental way.

I may be nit-picking, but since it's the topic, I think it speaks to what is the truth, rather than the notion of truth in the abstract without the article "the" in front of it.

 

What you refer to is what we used to call the god frame [back in college] and is something that doesn't exist for any observer. To me this is key. In your example about the mountain and elevation, there is an absolute point of reference, and that is the distance from the top of the mountain to the center of the earth. All observers [in terms of elevation] will measure the same value for this.

Yes.

[M30USA]

This is very valuable info. May I ask what thread contains this info:D

 

I'll see if I can dig it up. I'm pretty sure it was in a book and not online. But in meantime you can get a ballpark idea by looking at this graph which shows death totals. It doesn't show them all, but the point is that even if you consider Hitler as "religious" (which is debatable) you still come up with extremely low minority of religious deaths:

 

Dictator Death Tolls: Who Killed the Most?, RealClearWorld - The Compass Blog

 

It's amazing how the Crusades are cited as a stain on Christianity and, aside from the fact that the crusades do NOT represent the instruction of Jesus, they killed a meager 300,000--compared to 75,000,000 by one atheist man alone, Mao Zedong. (Thats correct. 75 MILLION. Thats more deaths than crusades by a FACTOR OF 250.) Ever hear people use Mao Zedong as an argument against atheism to show how much better the world would be without atheists? Nope. All we hear is crusades, crusades, crusades...

Edited February 1, 2014 by M30USA

[pureinheart]

I'll see if I can dig it up. I'm pretty sure it was in a book and not online. But in meantime you can get a ballpark idea by looking at this graph which shows death totals. It doesn't show them all, but the point is that even if you consider Hitler as "religious" (which is debatable) you still come up with extremely low minority of religious deaths:

 

Dictator Death Tolls: Who Killed the Most?, RealClearWorld - The Compass Blog

 

It's amazing how the Crusades are cited as a stain on Christianity and, aside from the fact that the crusades do NOT represent the instruction of Jesus, they killed a meager 300,000--compared to 75,000,000 by one atheist man alone, Mao Zedong. (Thats correct. 75 MILLION. Thats more deaths than crusades by a FACTOR OF 250.) Ever hear people use Mao Zedong as an argument against atheism to show how much better the world would be without atheists? Nope. All we hear is crusades, crusades, crusades...

 

Thank you M30, very much!

 

The Crusades issue recently has baffled me, as I learn more about these things- there has been many threads within the last year or so. Most posters really were down on the Crusades (I only looked at the threads briefly due to them being way over my head. It's not that I didn't understand the topic, there was just a great deal of info to sift through) and I wasn't prepared to gather an opinion either way.

 

Well no, never, this is why this is a shock. I think it's pathetic that the one who "wins" (or group) is the one that screams the loudest, while none do any fact checking! Or they do know this information and choose to remain silent because it fits their mindset or agenda. This is not being objective. Most people hear things and take it as gospel.

 

The fact that the Crusades were not in the will of God, in fact far from it seemed to be apparent based on past threads- but still didn't form opinions. Thank you for the confirmation.

 

I've always heard Hitler was an Atheist. Just recently the word on the street is he was religious, Catholic? Amazing how that works. I think he was an Atheist based on his actions. Some accounts suggest he was trying to do away with Catholicism.

 

Oh M30, I can check those threads again, you provided ample info that will last days. Usually all I need is a push in the right direction:)

[happydate]

How many Christians do you need to change a light bulb?

Just one and the rest watches on.

 

Blessings..

Edited February 2, 2014 by happydate