Is there shame in staying?

[underpants]

Yes of course. But we have that jack @ss on here saying divorce is great! Great for him, great for kids. Everyone should do it!!! If you don't do it you are an idiot and doomed to be cheated on repeatedly.

 

Yet he did it and was cheated on twice so I guess anyone can get cheated on. Even a know it all divorce happy guy like that.

 

You are paraphrasing, reading your own pain (shame?) into another's viewpoint.

 

I've seen several very happily divorced people, many have moved onto second marriages where I'm confident they will grow old together and it took a divorce at some point for then to find each other and true happiness.

 

Reconciled couples...not any that I know of and of 1st time marriages, the few I see still 'in tact', I wouldn't want the relationships I see with many of those. There is no great prize delivered down to those that stick it out for 50 years with someone they grow to hate or resent. All I do is try to leave the room when I see that situation come my way.

 

Anyway, good luck either way. Life is short and everyone deserves to be happy. Even if it is not with you, or you with them.

[Confused48]

 

I've seen several very happily divorced people, many have moved onto second marriages where I'm confident they will grow old together and it took a divorce at some point for then to find each other and true happiness.

 

I didn't see anyone on this thread say otherwise. However, in addition to the types of divorces you see like this there are ones that don't end up so nicely. And even the ones that do, to get there, to get to being divorced and to get adjusted to that status, to recover, these are all painful and difficult things. As well as very risky to the children's well being.

 

Reconciled couples...not any that I know of and of 1st time marriages, the few I see still 'in tact', I wouldn't want the relationships I see with many of those. There is no great prize delivered down to those that stick it out for 50 years with someone they grow to hate or resent. All I do is try to leave the room when I see that situation come my way.

 

This is your perspective. Your personal sampling.

 

Yet here on this very thread we see half a dozen? more? people telling you they ARE happily reconciled.

 

Life is short and everyone deserves to be happy. Even if it is not with you, or you with them.

 

Funny. I see this as an excuse to cheat often. Not that you meant it that way. I'm thinking you mean it as why to divorce. But it is a cheaters standard line.

[drifter777]

Well then is

 

Having better communication not good?

Being a stronger person able to cope better not good?

Being closer than ever not good?

Finding someone who you have 40 years of fidelity not good?

To all of you flaming me for my opinion that nothing good comes from infidelity I'd like to frame my opinion for you.

 

I'll concede that better communication and being closer and being stronger are good things. But is cheating the way to achieve these things? Could the cheater-to-be have gone to their SO and said "I'm not happy with our relationship. Something has to change and I'm willing to work on it with you". If the SO's answer is "No" then walk away and find whatever it is you are missing with someone else. If the answer is "Yes" then the work begins, but the work is not burdened with the pain, anger, and shame of being cheated on. I think achieving all of these things that you all say are "good" can be achieved - or not - without infidelity. The end - a better relationship - does not justify the means when those means are lying and cheating. There is no net gain from cheating. If the relationship gets stronger then facing the issues honestly before cheating would have accomplished the same thing.

[Confused48]

To all of you flaming me for my opinion that nothing good comes from infidelity I'd like to frame my opinion for you.

 

I'll concede that better communication and being closer and being stronger are good things. But is cheating the way to achieve these things? Could the cheater-to-be have gone to their SO and said "I'm not happy with our relationship. Something has to change and I'm willing to work on it with you". If the SO's answer is "No" then walk away and find whatever it is you are missing with someone else. If the answer is "Yes" then the work begins, but the work is not burdened with the pain, anger, and shame of being cheated on. I think achieving all of these things that you all say are "good" can be achieved - or not - without infidelity. The end - a better relationship - does not justify the means when those means are lying and cheating. There is no net gain from cheating. If the relationship gets stronger then facing the issues honestly before cheating would have accomplished the same thing.

 

Drifter I get what you are saying. I think there are many, that would say that even if their marriage is better now and it would never have gotten to this better place without the shock of cheating, they still wish the cheating had not happened.

 

I'm not there yet where I can say my relationship is fantastic and that it is bc of the shock of an A. However, I doubt there will ever come a time when I would say that I'd rather have that fantastic relationship with cheating in the past, rather than a mediocre relationship with no cheating in the past. I'll take mediocre with no cheating every time. So in that sense, for me, no ultimate better result comes out of an A.

 

None of us gets to decide that though. Our only choice is recon or D. With either of those choices you have a chance at a fantastic relationship. IMHO.

[Sub]

The end - a better relationship - does not justify the means when those means are lying and cheating. There is no net gain from cheating. If the relationship gets stronger then facing the issues honestly before cheating would have accomplished the same thing.

 

Very true. Nobody would argue that an A is the way to go to make things better, as opposed to communicating about things pre-A. I don't think that's the argument. But since there's no time-machine to go back and get a do-over after it happens, some choose to erase the pain of an A by making things "better", or at least return to a point of happiness and contentment within the marriage. They see an opportunity for something constructive between themselves and their WS, and they take it.

[drifter777]

Drifter I get what you are saying. I think there are many, that would say that even if their marriage is better now and it would never have gotten to this better place without the shock of cheating, they still wish the cheating had not happened.

 

I'm not there yet where I can say my relationship is fantastic and that it is bc of the shock of an A. However, I doubt there will ever come a time when I would say that I'd rather have that fantastic relationship with cheating in the past, rather than a mediocre relationship with no cheating in the past. I'll take mediocre with no cheating every time. So in that sense, for me, no ultimate better result comes out of an A.

 

None of us gets to decide that though. Our only choice is recon or D. With either of those choices you have a chance at a fantastic relationship. IMHO.

I think having your SO give you an ultimatum or receiving divorce papers is as shocking as d-day. I'm done arguing about it because it's just my opinion and I cannot be shaken from it.

[experiencethedevine]

To all of you flaming me for my opinion that nothing good comes from infidelity I'd like to frame my opinion for you.

 

I'll concede that better communication and being closer and being stronger are good things. But is cheating the way to achieve these things? Could the cheater-to-be have gone to their SO and said "I'm not happy with our relationship. Something has to change and I'm willing to work on it with you". If the SO's answer is "No" then walk away and find whatever it is you are missing with someone else. If the answer is "Yes" then the work begins, but the work is not burdened with the pain, anger, and shame of being cheated on. I think achieving all of these things that you all say are "good" can be achieved - or not - without infidelity. The end - a better relationship - does not justify the means when those means are lying and cheating. There is no net gain from cheating. If the relationship gets stronger then facing the issues honestly before cheating would have accomplished the same thing.

 

 

 

 

I agree with the sentiment of your statement Drifter, it makes perfect sense in what might otherwise be a perfectly rational situation, but of course ONE of those in this situation is irrational, has made alternative choices, and feels no shame about that until it all blows up in their face.

 

 

THEN there is shame (probably), and the possibility of getting back to what should have happened in the first place. Voicing their perceptions of unhappiness within the marriage and addressing it. Only this time there is the additional burden of the shame of adultery to aggravate it.

[Confused48]

I think having your SO give you an ultimatum or receiving divorce papers is as shocking as d-day. I'm done arguing about it because it's just my opinion and I cannot be shaken from it.

 

I was not asking you to argue the point. I was agreeing with you. I thought. You don't see it that way? No need to reply if not. I'm just saying my intention was not to further aggravate you and be contentious.

[HermioneG]

To all of you flaming me for my opinion that nothing good comes from infidelity I'd like to frame my opinion for you.

 

I'll concede that better communication and being closer and being stronger are good things. But is cheating the way to achieve these things? Could the cheater-to-be have gone to their SO and said "I'm not happy with our relationship. Something has to change and I'm willing to work on it with you". If the SO's answer is "No" then walk away and find whatever it is you are missing with someone else. If the answer is "Yes" then the work begins, but the work is not burdened with the pain, anger, and shame of being cheated on. I think achieving all of these things that you all say are "good" can be achieved - or not - without infidelity. The end - a better relationship - does not justify the means when those means are lying and cheating. There is no net gain from cheating. If the relationship gets stronger then facing the issues honestly before cheating would have accomplished the same thing.

 

I do not think a single person on here has argued that cheating was the correct path to a happy marriage.

 

I actually had a happy marriage prior to the infidelity.

 

But I had a spouse with some personal demons that when a confluence of outside factors crashed into our life- chose infidelity to self medicate.

 

Was it the right choice? Never.

 

But that doesn't invalidate the years we have invested in each other. It doesn't invalidate that my heart still skips a beat when he winks at me across the room. It doesn't invalidate how much we love each other or the life we built.

 

And as we both chose to reconcile- and he learned what was actually causing his issues- it made both of our lives better.

 

Is that the path he should have chosen?

 

No. And he will be the first to say that.

 

But it doesn't negate the work he put in to fix himself, and the work we did together to recover.

 

And that, respectfully, is what I think you are missing.

[drifter777]

I was not asking you to argue the point. I was agreeing with you. I thought. You don't see it that way? No need to reply if not. I'm just saying my intention was not to further aggravate you and be contentious.

Thanks. I think I did understand you but this:

 

there are many, that would say that even if their marriage is better now and it would never have gotten to this better place without the shock of cheating,

 

is what I was commenting on. All good.

[Owl]

See...I think that we've reached a point of agreemant.

 

I would completely agree...an affair should never be a viable CHOICE to improve things in a marriage. NEVER.

 

The good that comes about afterwards occurs because of the huge amounts of work and effort that the couple put into repairing things as a result of the affair...and there are far better means to reach that same goal that should be sought first.

 

The point of disagreemant was that it was being stated that things can't get better after an affair...that improvements can't come to the marriage as a result of that horribly painful lesson. And the tact that some folks were intimating that a marriage can't ever get better post affair, that they can't recover...which has been disproved by life experience of folks that post here on LS.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I wrote on another thread:

 

What a BS wants the most.....is for the affair to have never happened.

The only thing a remorseful WS can never give....is for the affair to have never happened.

 

And that is what both a BS and FWS have to accept. That there are no time machines....only the here and now. Accepting, that it is from this point that they to rebuild from.

 

I would think that both parties would want something better than what they had before.

 

For a BS, that their FWS gets it, gets them and now values their BS and the relationship.

 

For a FWS, to make amends in a meaningful way towards their BS and themselves.

 

When true R happens, it is a deeper more aware relationship that is forged.

[BetrayedH]

Not to speak for Drifter but I think one way to summarize it is that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. For him (and probably many, many others), it's a net loss.

 

That said, I think for some that have truly reconciled, they have experienced a net gain.

 

I don't think I'd argue with any BSs personal perspective.

 

As for my personal shame, my regrets relate to my RA and injuring my wife when I threw her out the door. But I have none about my attempt to reconcile or my eventual decision to divorce.

[Snowflower]

Thanks. I think I did understand you but this:

 

there are many, that would say that even if their marriage is better now and it would never have gotten to this better place without the shock of cheating,

 

is what I was commenting on. All good.

 

FWIW, I think I understand better your POV, drifter. And, I agree with you 100% that I think it is bull-hookey when someone says that they got to a better place in their marriage as a result of the affair. Is that what you are saying too, drifter? I just want to make sure we're on the same page?

 

To be honest, I honestly did try to convince myself of that at one point in my recovery. I was reading here and saw this topic come up and tried to tell myself that yes, the A hurt but we (meaning my H and I) got a much better marriage out of it.

 

My H and I did get better marriage. But it came at such a steep price. No way was it worth it.

 

Does that even make sense?

 

But what did make my experience "worth it" (and I'm not sure those are the right words) was the internal strength that I obtained as a result so that I could better deal with this danged cancer. And that, is life or death type of stuff. I will take any advantage I can get over that...even one that came with such a steep price: my experience with infidelity.

[Just_AGuy]

This is what I think, both options suck

 

In my case (I am very close to finish with divorce) - just waiting for papers etc (not living together for 6 months already). I am very happy (I was cheated on). My marriage sucked. I am really happy to get out of it. I see my son regularly and I love him very much. We spend a lot of time together. Strange thing that our relationship me and my ex-wife become friendly, no fighting, we don't communicate except for about our son but we both do whatever is best for him. So... I'd say I am happy in divorce.

[BHsigh]

Drifter is spot on here, nothing good comes from the affair, for either the BS or the WS. People can convince themselves differently if it helps them cope, but it's still just bs.

 

Better communication, stronger marriage after the affair? Those possibilities were there all along, the affair simply gave the bs the opportunity to show their strength, nothing more. The affair was just their excuse for opening up. Really, after that what was there to lose in your marriage, there were no more excuses. And vice versa, it gives the WS the excuse to reflect on themselves, something that they should have done before having an affair.

 

Going through all of this is in no way worth the price that is paid, because like it or not, happily reconciled or not, the person that you were before is now broken.

 

So yes, to me there is shame in reconciling, there is shame in knowing that I cannot make it through this unscathed. But on the other hand, I would still feel this shame if I left, so what's the point in differentiating between the two. Living through my wife's affair was the last betrayal that I could possibly live through in my lifetime of betrayals. I know in my heart that the next betrayal from friend, family or an intimate relationship will end with a bullet in my head or at least living out the rest of my life committed to a hospital.

 

Shame, oh yeah, there's plenty of that here.

[realfriends]

This is always in my mind. If me and my ex ever got back, I feel like its something I would really have to talk to someone about at the time. I guess I will only worry about it if it ever comes up.

[experiencethedevine]

In my case (I am very close to finish with divorce) - just waiting for papers etc (not living together for 6 months already). I am very happy (I was cheated on). My marriage sucked. I am really happy to get out of it. I see my son regularly and I love him very much. We spend a lot of time together. Strange thing that our relationship me and my ex-wife become friendly, no fighting, we don't communicate except for about our son but we both do whatever is best for him. So... I'd say I am happy in divorce.

 

 

That your marriage is at an end and you have both found the good grace to be civil to each other and are doing what is right for your son after the fallout is highly commendable.

 

 

I sincerely hope that you find peace, compassion and devotion in your future.

[jnel921]

What is a shame is how beautiful beginnings can end up so bad. The options are always their to improve a relationship or marriage. People can become so complacent and not realize the damage it does. We all need to refresh our lives and Ms. But if the choice is to do it with others...that in itself is shameful.

 

In the end you are forced to make a decision about your R or M. You either realize it needs to get better and do the work or you walk away. There is no other choice.

 

I am not happy I was cheated on. My H didn't want to lose me or his F. So he did the work and continues to do so. There is a cloud of shame that is always lingering over him. His love for us motivates him to do better. I am grateful for that. It could have been different.

[No Limit]

Infidelity/Cheating has not (yet?) entered my life, but I was pretty much "betrayed" and used by my best friend. Someone I was so close to that others had described us as "sister-close", even teachers made sure we'd never get separated in various classes.

 

When it started I felt terrible. Asked myself what I might have done wrong, why I wasn't good enough. But knowing that the people she did this for treated her like trash I decided I would try and be a good friend for the rest of the year, which put me in the front line of harassment and other things. I've never felt humiliated like this before, but since she didn't feel like talking also, I decided to do my own thing and be at her side even though she couldn't care less. I know it's not much in comparison to marriage, but reading so many stories where the WS also harasses and puts all blame to the BS I think that situation was a little similar.

 

End of story, her family suddenly had to move and she tried calling me for 3 months almost every day, sometimes leaving me messages on my mailbox sounding like"I'll call until we talk" or "Please, it's important". My mother almost begged me to forgive her, but I only once took the phone accidentally after I had deleted her number. Haven't heard from her since and I think it's best this way.

 

Ever since I'd say this is my to-go technique should I ever find someone I'd marry. Try to talk, try to be kind and appealing, and get the hell out of dodge once everything is confirmed and I feel like I've given it all I could in my power.

 

I know this isn't the perfect approach since many WS only realize what they loose when everything's discovered, but seeing that after wishing my former best friend farewell I've found new people who like me the way I am, I don't see that a divorce is the end.

It's simply a new chapter.

[ladydesigner]

Going through all of this is in no way worth the price that is paid, because like it or not, happily reconciled or not, the person that you were before is now broken.

 

It is not worth the price paid, I absolutely agree and I would say my WH does too. I have less fears about our future now whereas it seems now my WH has more fears. My Wh's A's broke me in a way that my fears came to realization. He had already fallen out of love with me, that was my worst fear. My self-love and respect has quadrupled, probably the one good thing to come out of this! And now my WH worries that I will leave over his A's. I am not worried either way, I know I will be okay. He broke me and I became stronger.

[Fluttershy]

For me I can say good came of my H's affair. I am stronger and more independant and he is less passive aggressive for one.

 

But I don't see how saying that, the truth, says affairs are okay. It is jusy not dwelling on the negative. For people who have found a better match after an affair driven divorce that affair to get out of a had marriage though awful they used it for good. Worked and grew from it.

 

In a perfect world people would do the hard work Without a catalyst. But that sadly doesn't happen at times when it should. I could spend the rest of ky life being ashamed of foriving my husband, regretting his cheating and wishing i had never experienced that pain but that will do nothing except keep me miserable and bitter (me)

 

So I am thankful for a better marriage and a better me. It was rough and full of pain but it is in the past.

 

And I am not ashamed of that.

[BHsigh]

For me I can say good came of my H's affair. I am stronger and more independant and he is less passive aggressive for one.

 

But I don't see how saying that, the truth, says affairs are okay.

 

 

 

I am happy for you that you are happily reconciled, I am, and I don't mean to argue or disparage that in any way.

 

 

But that is just BS, no good came from your H's affair, non whatsoever. All that you got from the affair was pain and having to pay for his weakness and fun, you're just making an excuse about accepting it and reconciling, you're just trying to make a completely bad situation positive, which in itself is good, but still just BS.

 

 

You are stronger and more independent? You always had that in you, the affair only got rid of your excuses not to be. The same with your husband, he always had the ability to not be passive aggressive, his affair and your pain just got rid of his excuses.

 

 

Not every situation has a positive, and an affair is one of them, no matter what happens afterwards. You're just spinning a bad situation.

 

 

Again, I understand trying to find a positive, but it would be completely off base to try to convince anyone that has never been through this that there is anything positive about an affair.

 

 

I mean, can you imagine the cheaters that haven't been caught yet, that are reading this thinking to themselves "See, good can come from my selfishness and utter betrayal of my supposed loved one.".

[Fluttershy]

I am happy for you that you are happily reconciled, I am, and I don't mean to argue or disparage that in any way.

 

 

But that is just BS, no good came from your H's affair, non whatsoever. All that you got from the affair was pain and having to pay for his weakness and fun, you're just making an excuse about accepting it and reconciling, you're just trying to make a completely bad situation positive, which in itself is good, but still just BS.

 

 

You are stronger and more independent? You always had that in you, the affair only got rid of your excuses not to be. The same with your husband, he always had the ability to not be passive aggressive, his affair and your pain just got rid of his excuses.

 

 

Not every situation has a positive, and an affair is one of them, no matter what happens afterwards. You're just spinning a bad situation.

 

 

Again, I understand trying to find a positive, but it would be completely off base to try to convince anyone that has never been through this that there is anything positive about an affair.

 

 

I mean, can you imagine the cheaters that haven't been caught yet, that are reading this thinking to themselves "See, good can come from my selfishness and utter betrayal of my supposed loved one.".

 

 

I didn't say every situation has a positive. And no we don't always have something inside of us. I was clingy, needy and weak. When faced eith tragedy, any tradegy, we either succomb or see what needs working on. I realized my entire life was wrapped up in my husband and he was my identity. I was so codependant that if he had left me I probably would have killed myself. And I didn't want my happiness to come from him anymore only. The affair was a catalyst for my change. I could have worked on those things and come to that conclusion without the affair. I think I would have preffered that. And my husband could have as well. I even said that. But that isn't my story an that isn't how it happened. Your a negaive person. That is who you are/choose to be. You can't see how I see things. That doesn't mean it is bs. Which means false or lies.

As to the last. People in affairs don't need help to rationalize the crap out of it. But if they get caught or actually grow a conscience they will learn that hurting someone so much as betraying them is not worth the personal growth that comes out of them.

 

If asked, of course I wish the affair had never happened. He does too, more than me, because I am untainted but well, he will always have that in his history. But like I said why be miserable, and stubborn, and hold onto a belif that there is no pure happiness after an affair. That with hardowrk you can take the shttist o situation and make your life better.

 

Call it bulsht. I call it hope, joy, love, freedom, enlightening, positive and true.

 

It really is a matter of perspective.

 

I just want to add that I have no desire to be miserable and bitter just ao my husband feels punished and that he didn't get away with it. Nor would I like to feel that way just so someone who is already cheating might want to grasp at straws to why their affair is "okay".

Edited January 30, 2014 by Fluttershy

[BHsigh]

I didn't say every situation has a positive. And no we don't always have something inside of us. I was clingy, needy and weak. When faced eith tragedy, any tradegy, we either succomb or see what needs working on. I realized my entire life was wrapped up in my husband and he was my identity. I was so codependant that if he had left me I probably would have killed myself. And I didn't want my happiness to come from him anymore only. The affair was a catalyst for my change. I could have worked on those things and come to that conclusion without the affair. I think I would have preffered that. And my husband could have as well. I even said that. But that isn't my story an that isn't how it happened. Your a negaive person. That is who you are/choose to be. You can't see how I see things. That doesn't mean it is bs. Which means false or lies.

As to the last. People in affairs don't need help to rationalize the crap out of it. But if they get caught or actually grow a conscience they will learn that hurting someone so much as betraying them is not worth the personal growth that comes out of them.

 

If asked, of course I wish the affair had never happened. He does too, more than me, because I am untainted but well, he will always have that in his history. But like I said why be miserable, and stubborn, and hold onto a belif that there is no pure happiness after an affair. That with hardowrk you can take the shttist o situation and make your life better.

 

Call it bulsht. I call it hope, joy, love, freedom, enlightening, positive and true.

 

It really is a matter of perspective.

 

I just want to add that I have no desire to be miserable and bitter just ao my husband feels punished and that he didn't get away with it. Nor would I like to feel that way just so someone who is already cheating might want to grasp at straws to why their affair is "okay".

 

Fluttershy,

 

I just want to say sorry for berating you like that, it was undeserved and really, it was all based on semantics anyways.

 

It has just always rubbed me the wrong way, I think that comes from reading articles where people were saying that they were thankful for the affair, and all of the good that came from it, but they were rug sweepers. And you don't sound like you fit in that category. I will always maintain that nothing good comes from an affair, but your overall statements are not saying that anyway (other than the one statement, which I still disagree with your wording at least).

 

And unfortunately I have no choice but to be a negative person anymore, 35 years of trying to be positive and make things better, and getting knocked down every time kind of does that to a person. Why would I want to make friends after every friend that I ever had stabs me in the back? Why would I ever feel comfortable in a relationship after being cheated on by the last four that I've been in?

 

So yes, I am negative, and I embrace that now, there is nothing wrong with that, any more than there is with you being positive to the point of saying that good came out of your husbands affair.