Before you say, "I do"........

[Moose]

you never signed marriage papers?

 

are you legally married?

 

OH! That's what you're talking about. I never considered that as a contract. It's more like a certificate.

 

451.010. Marriage is considered in law as a civil contract, to which the consent of the parties capable in law of contracting is essential.

 

In the laws eyes anyway. Thanks for clarifying, but there isn't a legal contract written on paper with stipulations on it. That is unless you draw up a pre-nup.

 

specu;lating ab out my beliefs isn';t neccessary, i havent presented them.

 

*sigh*

 

its hard enough to type, so i won;t keep repeating myself and watch as you refuse to recognize what i;msaying. (example :

So, are you saying that only my beliefs require a man to stand by what he says? )

 

summary:

 

1. you believe marriage is a sacred commitment to never be brokemn

 

2. in actuyality, it;s not. yuor belieds have thankfully not yet been legislated

 

I'm sorry to hear about your hand. I know it must be difficult for you to type, especially to a lamen like me. I appreciate your efforts.

 

I'm having trouble understanding why you think I refuse to recognize what you're saying. First off, I didn't speculate about your beliefs.....at least not with what you quoted me saying. I said you, "may"......doesn't mean you do....it means you might. Heck, you've got me totally confused about what you believe, so I don't even try.

 

summary:

 

1. It is MY belief. And I tend to stick to it.

 

2. That's what you think. Not me.

 

I am a late entry to this thread, and I am not engaging in some of the current debate...just wanted to say this comment rings very true with me. I have just been told, by more than one source, both family based and professional, that this is what I need to realise and accept. Once my happiness is secure from within, and I dont try to force him to make me happy by doing what I think I need...a lot of weight will leave my shoulders.

 

We marry in about 3 months, and both of us are thinking hard about things we can do to improve ourselves and our relationship and to give it the best chance of surviving the long haul.

 

We've come through a lot already, and learnt a lot. But the path of personal growth is unending.

 

Thank goodness there's still hope out there! Tell me, do you plan to write your own vows to each other, or are you going to stick to the traditional ones? When you do say your vows, do you expect your new husband to obied by them to the letter?

 

Cant say I agree with that though Moose. Sometimes things happen, which cannot be fixed, despite the best efforts and intentions of both people. Perhaps one spouse changes so much, in such a radical fashion, that the bonds which initially drew the people together are gone, for example. I'm not saying that is good, but it does seem to be life.

 

It's not required of you to agree. It's just something I've noticed.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by Moose

OH! That's what you're talking about. I never considered that as a contract. It's more like a certificate.

i;m not talking about the certificate--the certificate CERTIFIES youve signed the contract.

there isn't a legal contract written on paper

marriage contracts must be written down or they are invalid--i;m talking about your state.

451.220. All marriage contracts whereby any estate, real or personal, in this state, is intended to be secured or conveyed to any person or persons, or whereby such estate may be affected in law or equity, shall be in writing, and acknowledged by each of the contracting parties, or proved by one or more subscribing witnesses.

Heck, you've got me totally confused about what you believe, so I don't even try.

I;m a catholic. we dont; believe in divorce. if you do decide to get one we have the novel approach of just not recognizing it, and considering further sexual activity adultery. we;re not known for our progressiveness though.

 

your complaint seems to be that people are renegging ont heir commitment--my point is that the commitment isn;t permanent in the eyes of the law, and both marriage and divorce are LEGAL preceedings.

 

the fact that you;ve placed a religious significance on it shouldn't have to apply to anyone else at all.

 

you keep saying "its my belief, its my belief" thinking that excuses it;s civic incorrectness--youir beilefs clearly aren;t personal, they;re societal--because youre talking about society. if it was "my belief" that "Moose has to wear his underwear on the outside of his pants"--wuold you have to? even though iuts my beilef?

 

[in response to my gracious providing of the FACTUAL DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE]

 

2. That's what you think. Not me.

it;s not a belief, it;s a damn fact.

 

my beliefs, outlined ab ove, have nothing to do with marriage as a civic contract, as redundantly defined in the leigslature of your own state, and your beliefs in no way erase such legislation--they merely supplement it.

[Moose]

Ok, now you've got me wondering. We never signed a contract. Only a certificate. So, does this mean we aren't legally married? I'm going to have to look into that. Are you sure this isn't something that came out recently?

 

my beliefs, outlined ab ove, have nothing to do with marriage as a civic contract, as redundantly defined in the leigslature of your own state, and your beliefs in no way erase such legislation--they merely supplement it.

 

Now I think I see were your problem is with me. You think that I'm insisting my beliefs supercede what the law says! Let me assure you, the law is the law, and we are commanded to follow the law. I don't have a problem with that. At all.

 

What I do have a problem with is how some people go into a marriage, says their vows, follow the motions, and then ignore the promises they made to each other, simply because, THE LAW makes it so convenient to just walk away from it. But again, remember, it's MY problem.....

 

If people truly examine the commitments they're making, and have a clear understanding of how much work this is, knowing that they need to follow their vows to the letter to remain honorable, PRIOR to entering the marriage, wouldn't you think that we'd see a decline in divorces?

[Thinkalot]

Hi Moose. We are writing our own personal vows. And I will certainly mean every word I say, and stand by them to the best of my ability forevermore. Unless of course, there is a situation such as abuse. In 'normal' circumstances though, I see the vows as a binding agreement, a sacred promise. I know my fiance feels the same way.

 

His ex-wife cheated on him, so I know the line I will write in my vows, about being faithful always, is especially important to him.

 

I realise there are situations where for whatever reason, it becomes impossible to stand by those vows. But I certainly see them as very meaningful and binding and will not be taking them, or saying them, lightly.

[immoralist]

If people truly examine the commitments they're making, and have a clear understanding of how much work this is, knowing that they need to follow their vows to the letter to remain honorable, PRIOR to entering the marriage, wouldn't you think that we'd see a decline in divorces?

 

Not necessarily. People change and relationships change over time. A marriage can be entered into by both parties with eyes wide open and with all the Christian sincerity found at a Holy Roller Baptist Convention. Yet, in 10, 15 or 20 years one or both parties may want to exit.

 

Nor is there statistical support for the notion that conservative Christian Protestants are less likely to divorce than their heathen brethren. In fact, some studies show

 

conservative Protestant Christians, on average, have the highest divorce rate, while mainline Christians have a much lower rate. They found some new information as well: that atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rate of all.

 

Check out the web site:

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

 

Christian belief does not necessarily make marriages more durable and sticky. Like God, marriage, too, is dead.

 

[Thinkalot]

Originally posted by immoralist

Like God, marriage, too, is dead.

 

 

Ah, you know how to push buttons immoralist. I am not going to bite, but I am sure others probably will.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by Moose

Ok, now you've got me wondering. We never signed a contract. Only a certificate.

i highly doubt this--it;s possible that you just dont remember.

 

the marriage certifficate certifies that you were issued a marriage license.

So, does this mean we aren't legally married?

it;s very slim possiblity that you were married but not issued a license, but iu highly duobt the officiant would go through the trouvlble of forging a marriage certificate if there was no license.

 

dont sweat it.

What I do have a problem with is how some people go into a marriage, says their vows, follow the motions, and then ignore the promises they made to each other

Why? Why does it threaten you that people are escaping unhappy situatiosn?

If people truly examine the commitments they're making, and have a clear understanding of how much work this is, knowing that they need to follow their vows to the letter to remain honorable, PRIOR to entering the marriage, wouldn't you think that we'd see a decline in divorces?

commitments are a choice, and not a preequeisite for a marriage licesnse; all you have to do to get a marriage license is be straight, single, and relatively sober.

 

also, you stilli haven;t provided a coherent argumen t for why a decline in the divorce rate is a good thing for society. (repeat:) "avoid non sequiturs like "dead beat dads" which has nothing to do with divorces, or untruths like "costs of keeping divroce courts open" when it;s clearly a source of revenue."

 

before you mentioned setting a bad example for kids, but why is divorce such a bad example? would you want your kids in an unhappy marriage? or worse, spousally ab used?

[immoralist]

My point, Thinkalot, is that many people pay lip service to both God and Marriage. Both are sacred cows whom people invoke, praise and esteem in polite company so as to appear serious, respectable and good. These abstractions, however, serve as moral camoflague. We wear both on our sleeve to look good to others. They no longer inspire how we actually live.

 

Both normative concepts require a leap of faith. A tremendous gulf separates what people publicly profess about God and Marriage, and how they actually live these "feel good"abstractions when no one is looking. Between the Word and the Deed lies an ocean of failed expectations, hypocrisy and duplicity.

 

For many, the Word of God has grown silent. For many, Marriage as a way to order one's affectional life has failed.

 

I suspect that God and Marriage will join Communism as outmoded thought systems, myths really, that no longer reflect how many actually live and, as a result, have lost their power to motivate, inspire and orient.

 

The three Gods that failed.

[dyermaker]

nihlism wont fail; thouhg. right?

[Moose]

Like God, marriage, too, is dead.

 

Intresting, I just talked to God not too long ago and He seemed fine to me.

 

also, you stilli haven;t provided a coherent argumen t for why a decline in the divorce rate is a good thing for society.

 

At the very least, it would show society that there is still something to believe in. That it's safe to trust your loved one. That being a man of your word doesn't become cliche', but still exsists in common place. It's fading, and maybe immoralist is on to something, maybe marriage is dead.....if not critically injured.

 

before you mentioned setting a bad example for kids, but why is divorce such a bad example? would you want your kids in an unhappy marriage? or worse, spousally ab used?

 

Of course I wouldn't want my kids in that situation. But what is worse than that? To me.....and this is only my personal view, what would be worse is if my children didn't do everything they possibly could, within their power to make it work. Especially if they are the drunk who beats his wife, or adultress who can't get enough.

 

Even so, if they said their vows, and made a promise to someone, and didn't intend to follow through, it would sadden me, and disappoint me. But I wouldn't love them any less.

 

These abstractions, however, serve as moral camoflague. We wear both on our sleeve to look good to others. They no longer inspire how we actually live.

 

Just like the Pharisees huh? You have a valid point, and boy do I wish you were wrong.

[Moose]

That being a man of your word doesn't become cliche',

 

Or does it need to be cliche'.......ah heck, it should be the norm.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by Moose

At the very least, it would show society that there is still something to believe in.

people should stay in unhappy marriages in order to give everyone else something to believe in? im trying deseperate ly to follow you, but its so hard.

That it's safe to trust your loved one.

often, its NOT! it s actualyl unhjealthy!

 

why send unrealistic messgaes? 50 years ago the y proetended everything was okya when it really, seriously was NOT--now we havea chance for people to right their mistkaes, adn they get nothing but censure from pepole who would rather themn grin and bear it--through abuse, infidelity, etc...

Of course I wouldn't want my kids in that situation. But what is worse than that? To me.....and this is only my personal view, what would be worse is if my children didn't do everything they possibly could, within their power to make it work. Especially if they are the drunk who beats his wife, or adultress who can't get enough.

of coures youd be disspapointed if yuor kids were drunk ab ysuers or adultereresses.

 

but what if the shoe was onm the other foot. you honestly would rather they didnt leave?

[moimeme]

And what's particularly fascinating is that each of the lads touts his view of society as it is and should be as *the* way of all life.

 

Haven't we any Buddhists here?

[Moose]

people should stay in unhappy marriages in order to give everyone else something to believe in? im trying deseperate ly to follow you, but its so hard.

 

Maybe there wouldn't be as many unhappy marriages if peole stuck to their vows, and promises. I'm not talking about a complete Utopia here. Just a possible comeback of honor and dignity. Maybe if people did that, then society would have something to cling to. There would be a ray of hope that honor still means something.

 

often, its NOT! it s actualyl unhjealthy!

 

It's sad that this is the case. It shouldn't be.

 

why send unrealistic messgaes? 50 years ago the y proetended everything was okya when it really, seriously was NOT--now we havea chance for people to right their mistkaes, adn they get nothing but censure from pepole who would rather themn grin and bear it--through abuse, infidelity, etc...

 

How does a failed marriage ever right a mistake? Does that make sense? It's the equivelant of a DWI on your record. You take a divorce to your grave. Or even further......

 

but what if the shoe was onm the other foot. you honestly would rather they didnt leave?

 

I thought I already answered that:

 

Even so, if they said their vows, and made a promise to someone, and didn't intend to follow through, it would sadden me, and disappoint me. But I wouldn't love them any less.

[Thinkalot]

You can always argue the merits of marriage and traditional values, and sticking to your vows, and you can always argue the merits of the fact it is now easier to get a divorce and escape a very unhealthy or unhappy situation.

 

This argument can bounce endlessly back and forth, when really, IMHO there are clear merits to both sides.

 

Moose- I am a bit of a romantic, an idealist...so I can see what you are trying to say about marriage, the importance of vows and sticking to them etc...and people too easily throwing in the towel.

[fundamental]

Originally posted by HokeyReligions

 

 

Funny you brought this up now though. Our toaster broke the other day and hubby went out and bought a new one. I remember as a child a broken toaster was repaired, not replaced and it got me thinking about the disposable society again.

 

Buying a new toaster is now cheaper than repairing one.

 

fund

[Moose]

Originally posted by fundamental

Buying a new toaster is now cheaper than repairing one.

 

fund

 

It's also easier. That's not the point. The point is, say your now deceased Mother gave that to you a week before she past, it's in brand new condition, works perfectly.....and you promised to care for it because it's the first one your Father, her husband bought her. You made a promise. You broke the toaster 2 years later. Should you toss it out and buy a new one, or should you repair it because of the promise you made?

[moimeme]

It's just a toaster.

 

Promises are made based on assumptions and beliefs (not the same thing). If the underlying assumptions change, the promises can be rendered null and void. The whole point is that marriage wouldn't break down if someone didn't renege on the deal. So then there's no point in berating the other individual for wanting to cut losses.

 

What I'm hearing here is if person A violates the original promises by not trying anymore, cheating, abusing person B, whatever, then person B should just take it because they promised. However the promises were mutual and supposed to be kept by both parties. In all contracts, agreements, promises, etc., if one party breaks the deal, the entire deal is broken.

 

Now, of course person A ought not break the deal, but that's the whole problem. They do. I agree people should go to pre-marriage courses. Hell, at this point, I think people should have full psych workups plus brain scans before they get into relationships with each other, but the point is moot because people claim it's their 'right' to do as they please, including marry unwisely and so long as these so-called 'rights' take precedence over all else, little will change.

 

Forcing people to stay in marriages after the marriages have died is the wrong way to go. If these problems are to be solved, it will be through proactive choices rather than reactive ones. Make it harder for people to marry. Make them take a course and pass tests before they get their licenses. Don't stop the exit; stop the entrance. But it'll never happen. The best you can do is try to persuade people to read relationship books and/or take marriage prep courses ahead of time and hope at least some of them will listen.

[Mr Spock]

LOTS of people talk to god Moose, are you saying he answers back to you?

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by Moose

The point is, say your now deceased Mother gave that to you a week before she past, it's in brand new condition, works perfectly.....and you promised to care for it because it's the first one your Father, her husband bought her. You made a promise. You broke the toaster 2 years later. Should you toss it out and buy a new one, or should you repair it because of the promise you made?

Without venturing into the fallacy of your analogy, let me just say that I would put the memento poster inside a box, and buy a new one to toast bread.

[Moose]

Moi, As usual, you read way into something that you should just take matter of factly as it pertains to every day normal life, and not so far as mental evaluations before marriage.....you always complicate things.

LOTS of people talk to god Moose, are you saying he answers back to you?

Well that's the most obvious trick question I've ever saw! But rest assured, His answer always reveals Itself.

Without venturing into the fallacy of your analogy, let me just say that I would put the memento poster inside a box, and buy a new one to toast bread.

I take it your hand is still not up to par, you meant toaster?, just joking....that's the most honorable answer so far.

[dyermaker]

Toaster, yes.

[sumdude]

Hell, at this point, I think people should have full psych workups plus brain scans before they get into relationships with each other,..

 

LOL and this prove that we're all loony wouldn't it?

[Pocky]

Haven't we any Buddhists here?

 

Present!