Hidden Momentos from his Ex... Keep or...?

[Fluttershy]

She is clearly unwell... And your H seems like a passive aggresive jerk who needs to be in counselling (not to you just to her). I mean he is unstable and he throws gasoline on that by having an exit affair? He created this drama and you knowingly inserted yourself into it.

 

A guy with guts ends a marriage before beginning another.

 

But i believe if people really acknowledge their own faults without a "but" thrown in and don't justify their own behaviour, seek to stregnthen their weaknesses they can change for the better.

 

Scan the pictures (the improtant part) and return the personal notes to her.

[Anne Boleyn]

She is clearly unwell... And your H seems like a passive aggresive jerk who needs to be in counselling (not to you just to her). I mean he is unstable and he throws gasoline on that by having an exit affair? He created this drama and you knowingly inserted yourself into it.

 

Our affair wasn't an exit affair. He had no intention of leaving her when the affair started. We had two instances of PA before she found out, then he went NC after ending it while she listened on the phone. The next day she came to him and said she wasn't actually upset, she was relieved that she knew and she said that she wanted to separate and divorce. She said she'd been unhappy for awhile, she knew he was unhappy, and she was happy and excited at the idea to start over. She told him that she was OK with us having a relationship as long as we were covert about it and didn't throw it in her face. She was amicable, even friendly, to both of us, and talked often about how she couldn't wait to move on. Then, about two months later, she had a discussion with her mother and my husband's family and changed her mind, saying she wanted to reconcile.

 

I agree, we shouldn't have had an affair. That was never for a debate. But this wasn't him wanting out and then having an affair. Is he a jerk? I really don't think so, but I guess nobody would expect me to say differently.

 

A guy with guts ends a marriage before beginning another.

As I've said, we both should have ended our marriages before starting our relationship. I've not been secretive about this. This wasn't a question of guts or no guts, it's a bad choice. He tried to leave earlier and it was a train wreck and when they reconciled, he was genuinely interested in trying to give her a chance.

 

But i believe if people really acknowledge their own faults without a "but" thrown in and don't justify their own behaviour, seek to stregnthen their weaknesses they can change for the better.

Again, I've never disagreed with this.

 

Scan the pictures (the improtant part) and return the personal notes to her.

I think we've agreed to scan the picture in question, but I don't think we'll return it with the note. Doing so creates drama whereas otherwise, we can just change it out without her knowing or making a statement about it. Edited January 30, 2014 by Anne Boleyn

[rumbleseat]

I can't say whether or not she has a mental illness, but it does sound as if she does.

 

If she does, then maybe the letters will helpl the children, when they are older. There are a lot of words of love in there for her kids, and maybe seeing a "record" of her illness ( for lack of a better word) may help them to understand her a bit better.

 

I know it's hard for you to explain everything using just words, the way people do on here. There just seems to be more going on than meets the eye.

 

Am I correct that she was pregnant and they reconciled because of that? That would mean that they were having sex right up until the divorce ( or am I misunderstanding this?). If so, then I can see how she may have been getting some very mixed signals from her now exH.

 

I'm not saying she's right, but from her point of view, she may blame her xh's decision to leave on the A and feel like if it weren't for that, they would still be together. He didn't help things by making the choice she did. That's water under the bridge now, but soetimes understanding why people do things can help in finding solutions.

 

Whatever else may be going on, she should not be breaking into your home or invading your privacy. Is it possible to have a conversation with her about what information you and your H will agree to share/ not share with her about your lives? Perhaps setting some very clear boundaries will help.

[Snowflower]

I see the man in this situation (your H her exH) as the type of person who does what he wants (has an A, makes a big deal about the pictures) and then leaves the women in his life to clean it up. First her (despite her failures in the marriage-I bet he had this all about me attitude with her too) and now you.

 

Look at you, Anne, you are here trying to figure out how to smooth this out, make it right for the kids, trying not to make the situation worse than it is for her...heck, you didn't even care that the notes were on the back of the pictures. While he exacerbates the situation by removing the pictures at his office, changes them out at home...

 

Anne, I have to give you credit...you are one of the few OW-turned-wives here who has tried to handle a difficult life situation with class and dignity. You seem to love her kids while still respecting her role as their true mother and you appear to try to have a care for her feelings. Kudos to you, FWIW.

 

Usually we just read about the crazy BW stories where the BW is at fault and the OW is oh, so perfect. At least you appear to take responsibility for your role in things and state that it is all not her-despite her craziness.

 

I will say that she is missing valuable time with her kids during their short childhoods. I'm sure she feels she lost her family in a sense but she still has her kids. She still has her time with them, correct? You and your H don't have sole custody or anything? She is a foolish woman...she should be enjoying her kids' youth. Gosh, they aren't young long...and she should try to put aside "what might have been." She still has a treasure in her children. And I say this as a fBS.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Snowflower

[Anne Boleyn]

I can't say whether or not she has a mental illness, but it does sound as if she does.

 

If she does, then maybe the letters will helpl the children, when they are older. There are a lot of words of love in there for her kids, and maybe seeing a "record" of her illness ( for lack of a better word) may help them to understand her a bit better.

 

Maybe. That's why I think there's merit to the idea of hanging on to the original and, if it looks like they'd like to know we would have it, along with the other things as they turn up. I just worry that, if we held it and presented it, it's not a "here's how your mother deteriorated through the years," it's Dad keeping a record of how crazy mom is, or the woman he had the affair with trying to make Mom look bad. It's a fine line and hard to know. I don't want it to look like we hang on to such thing to attack her.

 

I know it's hard for you to explain everything using just words, the way people do on here. There just seems to be more going on than meets the eye.

 

I admit I'm not going into the disgusting nitty gritty of everything that happened, or even sharing their marital turning point prior to the A, but it's only because the original intent of the question was if one was a former OW or even a new wife without the OW tag, would you view a picture with a hidden message of affection from the former spouse as no big deal, or would you rather take it down? I didn't want to turn it into "my husband's EX/former BS is crazy" trash talking.

 

Am I correct that she was pregnant and they reconciled because of that? That would mean that they were having sex right up until the divorce ( or am I misunderstanding this?). If so, then I can see how she may have been getting some very mixed signals from her now exH.

 

No, no, no... They had an incident come to light by surprise, he left. She reacted badly and she was pregnant, she was desperate to reconcile, so he reconcilled and genuinely wanted to work on the marriage if she was willing to try and fix it. After that, we had a PA, he had his DDay, we went NC, and then 24 hours after that break/NC/DDay, she said she thought she should be upset but she wasn't really, that she actually felt relief, that they hadn't been happy for awhile, and she wanted to separate and later divorce. She gave her blessing for us to continue or relationship (to me directly as well, this is not secondhand), as long as we were covert, and we were actually all on good terms with each other. 2 months after that, she had a conversation with her mother and his family and said she had changed her mind, she wanted to reconcile.

 

I'm not saying she's right, but from her point of view, she may blame her xh's decision to leave on the A and feel like if it weren't for that, they would still be together. He didn't help things by making the choice she did. That's water under the bridge now, but soetimes understanding why people do things can help in finding solutions.

 

The degree of her infraction was pretty severe and did result in his saying he wanted to leave, and he was clear he only came back because she was pregnant. I think she knew that the marriage was in very real danger, though the affair was for sure the nail in the coffin. I do think, after talking it out here, that part of her bitterness may be she feels like she didn't get a real chance to fix the marriage after her transgression and she felt by his coming back, she was owed that and it was robbed from her.

 

Whatever else may be going on, she should not be breaking into your home or invading your privacy. Is it possible to have a conversation with her about what information you and your H will agree to share/ not share with her about your lives? Perhaps setting some very clear boundaries will help.

 

That incident was a long time ago, 4 years. That behavior has stopped. The invading of privacy, honestly and truly, I don't lose sleep over. She does need to know a degree of what's going on because of the kids, and unless we're keeping things from her, it means keeping the kids out of things too, which isn't OK. Since these overlaps aren't Ok but are... Expected... And generally inconsequential, it's not worth arguing about. I'd rather tell too much for the sake of the kids involvement, then not enough and have the kids either be or feel left out.

[lollipopspot]

No, no, no... They had an incident come to light by surprise, he left. She reacted badly and she was pregnant, she was desperate to reconcile, so he reconcilled and genuinely wanted to work on the marriage if she was willing to try and fix it. After that, we had a PA, he had his DDay, we went NC, and then 24 hours after that break/NC/DDay, she said she thought she should be upset but she wasn't really, that she actually felt relief, that they hadn't been happy for awhile, and she wanted to separate and later divorce. She gave her blessing for us to continue or relationship (to me directly as well, this is not secondhand), as long as we were covert, and we were actually all on good terms with each other. 2 months after that, she had a conversation with her mother and his family and said she had changed her mind, she wanted to reconcile...

 

The degree of her infraction was pretty severe and did result in his saying he wanted to leave, and he was clear he only came back because she was pregnant. I think she knew that the marriage was in very real danger, though the affair was for sure the nail in the coffin. I do think, after talking it out here, that part of her bitterness may be she feels like she didn't get a real chance to fix the marriage after her transgression and she felt by his coming back, she was owed that and it was robbed from her.

 

I'm confused about the difference in time between the pregnancies. How long after she had her baby, did you have yours?

[Anne Boleyn]

I see the man in this situation (your H her exH) as the type of person who does what he wants (has an A, makes a big deal about the pictures) and then leaves the women in his life to clean it up. First her (despite her failures in the marriage-I bet he had this all about me attitude with her too) and now you.

 

I think I'm not expressing myself clearly... Nobody made a big deal about the pictures... Not even him. I came to the forum to share it because I thought it was an interesting topic I'd never seen discussed before, and because we had two viewpoints. There were no fights, no anything like that. Wasn't even really trying to "solve" a problem, despite the fact that people had some great ideas I'm thinking about following up with. Just a "I wonder if others had this happen? I wonder what their thoughts were?"

 

That's all.

 

Look at you, Anne, you are here trying to figure out how to smooth this out, make it right for the kids, trying not to make the situation worse than it is for her...heck, you didn't even care that the notes were on the back of the pictures. While he exacerbates the situation by removing the pictures at his office, changes them out at home...

 

I don't think there's anything to smooth out, again, it was just curiosity and a good conversation, and I got both satisfied.

 

The removing of the pictures at his office, that I get and I don't begrudge him it. First off, it's not an our space thing, it's a his space thing. So if he wants to take them down, that certainly makes sense, especially since in that area, she sees those pictures and obviously thought it means something more significant to their relationship then it really does. I don't think he thought he was causing an issue by switching them out, though obviously it did, though I agree, upon her getting upset, he's not going to go out of his way to make her feel better... Like, he wouldn't put the pictures back, for example. I think that's purely defense mechanism stuff, being utterly jaded with his dealings with her. Specifically, if he gives even a little, she takes it to mean something significant in the advancing of their relationship and it becomes yet another hassle.

 

I admit and agree, he takes the blunt road of opposition so as to not give that impression of hope or intimacy, which creates issues... But seeing as even when he does that, she still introduces him as her husband and talks reconciliation, I can see why he'd think it'd get worse if he gives in. Heck, we couldn't have the kids for Father's day this last year because we were both working, but after work she told us she was getting fast food with the kids and if he wanted to stop by, he could. He did stop by, with me and our child, and he paid for the kids meals. She wrote him an email thanking him for the date and saying it'd been a long time since she'd felt that way. I was sitting with him, they weren't alone. They didn't even really speak. But to her, it was a date. So I think he defaults to opposition to drive home division because anything else is interpreted as more, and sometimes even with opposition, it's still interpreted that way.

 

Anyway, the reaction he got from her at work wasn't something I saw as a thing I had to smooth over. I counted it handled after she expressed herself. I'll admit, I don't know what he did with the pictures, if he gave them back (I suspect not) or if he put them in his desk. If he did, I'm sure she went into his desk and took them out by now. The discussion I started was about the picture at home and seeing how others in my shoes would feel, if they'd feel like me or my husband. Honestly and truly, I thought I'd hear a lot of "OMG I don't know why you'd keep it" and saying they should be switched out. I was interested in hearing why people felt that way and comparing it to how I felt to see which made the most sense.

 

And in case it matters, as of right now the picture is up and un-replaced.

 

Anne, I have to give you credit...you are one of the few OW-turned-wives here who has tried to handle a difficult life situation with class and dignity. You seem to love her kids while still respecting her role as their true mother and you appear to try to have a care for her feelings. Kudos to you, FWIW.

 

Thank you for the compliment. I do love the kids very, very much, like they were my own, and I very much want them to feel included now and later, which is why I thought the comments about saving them were interesting... I wouldn't have thought of it that way before.

 

Usually we just read about the crazy BW stories where the BW is at fault and the OW is oh, so perfect. At least you appear to take responsibility for your role in things and state that it is all not her-despite her craziness.

 

It's not. She made mistakes, but ultimately, so did I and I acknowledge my mistakes certainly didn't help her.

 

I will say that she is missing valuable time with her kids during their short childhoods. I'm sure she feels she lost her family in a sense but she still has her kids. She still has her time with them, correct? You and your H don't have sole custody or anything? She is a foolish woman...she should be enjoying her kids' youth. Gosh, they aren't young long...and she should try to put aside "what might have been." She still has a treasure in her children. And I say this as a fBS.

 

We don't have sole custody, we have joint custody, she has them about 40% of the time, but that's by her choice, not our forcing it. We asked one time if we were sure she didn't want more time with them, and she said that he was trying to abandon them. We didn't ask her again after that. We decide our schedule every month, and the format she gives us is usually that we take 3-4 nights a week, 3-4 full days at the minimum, not including when we have mutual time with them, like games, plays, parent/teacher time, etc. That's 2 nights a week which may or may not be on nights we have them.

 

If she said she wanted to have them more, as long as she was well, and every indication she is around the children, we wouldn't say no.

[Anne Boleyn]

I'm confused about the difference in time between the pregnancies. How long after she had her baby, did you have yours?

 

9/2008 - their child

6/2010 - our child

 

So a year and change.

 

2006- Met through work, became friends

Late 2007 - EA, sort of (we didn't know we felt like we did about each other, nobody said anything to each other about it, still friends)

1/2008 - She was pregnant

3 or 4/2008 - The incident, he moved out (I didn't know about the incident or that he left

6/2008 - PA instances 1, 2, his DDay, mutual separation, our dating

7/2008 - Living together, still spending some nights at her place to watch their child

8/2008 - She said she wanted to reconcile

9/2008 - Child born

10/2008 - First week he said he said he had to reconcile if she wanted it, he moved out

10/2008-3/2009 - Off and on again PA's, constant EA, expressed, numerous attempts to leave

3/2009 - Moved out

7/2009 - Filed for divorce

10/2009 - Found out I was pregnant

11/2009 - Divorce final

12/2009 - Married

6/2010 - Our child born

9/2010 - Final car incident, he panicked and went back to live with her to watch the kids, did not reconcile, but spent days and some nights there

9/2010 - The underwear incident

10/2010 - Stopped living with her, said if she needed help with kids, they had to come to our place

[underpants]

Scan the pictures and put the scanned copies where ever or don't scan them. Keep the originals off site somewhere in case you should ever need them for what ever. Kid's knowledge, evidence.

 

If at some point you decide they are no longer of any value, then they can be destroyed or discarded.

 

A scorned woman does not ram peoples car or break into peoples houses. That is not cool, and I don't care....why.

 

Perhaps one day your H will decide a different job would eliminate some of the issues? When enough is enough he will make that change. I just hope it does not take another irrational act to clear that path.

 

Its tough to be on guard against someone else's irrational behavior, or possible irrational behavior.

 

Do you think she has shown the worst and this is lessening, or lying in wait for another opportunity? You say when she is dating it is cool, then the relationship ends and she obsesses on her ex, your H again?

 

She needs to realize this is not healthy. I just don't understand, because she can parent and hold down a job, so this tells me she knows what she is doing. She chooses to do these things.

 

Curious. Good luck.

[Raena]

I'm curious as to why you bothered to say anything to your husband at all about the notes on the backs of the pictures. If it means nothing to you, why did you tell him about it. I'm sure you had an idea that he wouldn't like it and would see it as yet another way she's trying to "invade" your home and "get him back". I know most people in good marriages do discuss these things, but if it didn't bother you, why bother bringing it up at all? You could have just as easily put the picture back (or scanned it and replaced it) and went on about your merry business. Instead, you made sure he knew about it and this caused yet more drama (him taking pictures down at work).

 

Also, if he knows that the pictures that he has on his desk are that bothersome to her, why does he bother doing it at all? I don't put pictures of my family up on my desk, it isn't something that HAS to be done. He could just remove the dramatic issue altogether.

 

I'm just saying that at some point, you both need to acknowledge that you play a role in her behavior. These foolish little games being played with pictures just seems that... foolish. Just let it go.

 

It does sound like the 3 of you would benefit from group therapy together. It doesn't sound like she'd be interested in following through on that though. I'd be more concerned with why she still feels this burning desire to be with him, to reconcile or to hang on to what they had. Most people don't do that without a reason. What is she hanging on to? Has he sat her down and told her directly that it's over, it will never be again and she should stop her nonsense? I think you did say that he did, but I can't remember. It's really not that hard to understand why she would still be hanging on to her anger and feelings. It sounds like you already have an idea why... she didn't get her closure, she didn't really want her marriage to end, she misses him and quite possible still loves him. Those feelings don't go away easily. After 5 years, you'd think they would have but now that I know more about the situation it makes sense. She sees him all the time, between sharing time with the kids, making schedules, going to events for the children together, father's day together, working together. GAH! As a woman sort of in her shoes (sort of because I do have to deal with sharing my son with the woman my man cheated on me with) I can see why she'd be having so much trouble moving on.

 

I can't imagine spending THAT much time seeing my ex. Granted, it's pretty new for me, but wow! I know that if I were in her shoes, it would make me sick to my stomach. I'd rather keep our contact to each other very minimal and only about our son. It's the only way to move on. It sounds like your (you and your husband) hands are tied every which direction with this though.

 

Also, I've been both the BS and the step-mom. I'm so glad my ex's ex-wife didn't act like a crazy loon like yours is/did. In fact, she and I have become very good friends and we still talk all the time even though he and I aren't together anymore. I think part of what made her able to respect me was that I stayed out of their business together with their son. I never tried to step in and parent him. I was a role model for him, I talked to him about stuff (when he asked my advice), but for the most part, parental issues with him were for my ex to deal with. Not me. I stayed out of it. I respected who she was and what she meant to him. To try and ignore the fact that they had a relationship, or that at one time he loved her and quite possible still did was something I just accepted. It is what it is. I still love my ex-husband too (and that was nearly 20 years ago), but I don't go stalking him and acting all crazy about it. I just remember him fondly and that's about it. Totally off topic here, I know, but I feel like I can talk to you.

 

Just a thought... have you tried at all to befriend her? Despite the situation, you might be surprised by her response. It could be that her craziness will stop if he and you stop trying to ignore what they had. I don't know how you would go about doing that since it doesn't sound like she's easy to approach and who knows how she would react. You'd know that better than I would.

[Anne Boleyn]

Scan the pictures and put the scanned copies where ever or don't scan them. Keep the originals off site somewhere in case you should ever need them for what ever. Kid's knowledge, evidence.

 

If at some point you decide they are no longer of any value, then they can be destroyed or discarded.

 

Thank you. Great ideas.

 

A scorned woman does not ram peoples car or break into peoples houses. That is not cool, and I don't care....why.

 

I honestly didn't consider it could be a mental illness until I came here, I just figured it was a scorned woman acting crazy. So maybe I've misjudged for quite awhile.

 

Perhaps one day your H will decide a different job would eliminate some of the issues? When enough is enough he will make that change. I just hope it does not take another irrational act to clear that path.

 

I mentioned briefly earlier, but he's been there almost 15 years, so finding a new place that pays the same, with insurance, with flexible hours is difficult. He's been offered promotions that require relocation, but she said she'd come with. Ultimately, he rejected them because he thought it would be too hard on me to move so far from my family and support system. I said it'd be OK, but I think he knew that I'd have a hard time with it, and I would.

 

Current plan is to ride it out until 20, by which point the problem is taken care of naturally, or he can leave. Or get a promotion with a more local relocation. It wouldn't help much, however, as she'd move too.

 

Its tough to be on guard against someone else's irrational behavior, or possible irrational behavior.

 

Do you think she has shown the worst and this is lessening, or lying in wait for another opportunity? You say when she is dating it is cool, then the relationship ends and she obsesses on her ex, your H again?

 

That is correct. I think overall, the behavior is lessening in some extents, but the same or worse in others. Breaking into the house and car ramming is done, but the "we're still married" behavior persists, as does the hope of reconciliation. The sniping and gossiping is constant, but ignorable.

 

She needs to realize this is not healthy. I just don't understand, because she can parent and hold down a job, so this tells me she knows what she is doing. She chooses to do these things.

 

Curious. Good luck.

 

I agree, that is my tripping point... Though, to be fair, I think she'd have been fired ages and ages ago if it wasn't for the fact that she's friends with the HR manager and was her personal assistant. If she's fired, the HR manager loses her PA and a buddy. She has, however, been demoted and doesn't do much PA work anymore and has been relegated to entry-level work typically held by high school students/interns. She's frustrated and unhappy with the demotion, which makes her fragile at work it seems, but she will never, ever quit.

 

Even at that job, you can't be spending your day openly crying hysterically because somebody who's technically your superior did something outside of work 6 years ago to make you upset without repercussions.

 

But I admit, it's all speculation. I can't confirm any of the work stuff to be 100% true, just assumptions from what my husband says or what others volunteer.

[Got it]

He needs to talk to her and ask her to stop. He needs to once and for all apologize and genuinally mean it - For having an affair, for cheating on her, for hurting her. He needs to make her understand that she has to let go and live her life again. She has to stop with the hidden notes..

 

I'm sure this hasn't been easy on her, especially since she was married to him and you two had an affair, so feels like you took away her husband and helped break up their family unit.

 

Be kind to her. You don't have to be her friend or a buddy, but just respect her as the mother of your step children.

 

As for the pictures, put them all in a new photo album. Make sure the kids are aware of this too so it doesn't seem like you're hiding their photos that their mom sent them and replacing pictures with ones that you took.

 

I am sorry but how is someone supposed to do that exactly? One can't make someone change their mental state, that is completely on her.

 

Anna, I have dealt with similar issues and an ex wife that has not moved on. She is an adult and needs to fix what is broken in her and that is not anyone elses responsibility. My husband has structured things so he has as limited contact as possible, and all in writing. In something like this I would defer to his wishes and what he wants to do. I think I would feel the same as you, and wouldn't care about the pictures, etc. but it is his call.

 

This is your house, hang the pictures you guys want to hang just like you decorate just the way you want.

[lollipopspot]

He's been offered promotions that require relocation, but she said she'd come with. Ultimately, he rejected them because he thought it would be too hard on me to move so far from my family and support system. I said it'd be OK, but I think he knew that I'd have a hard time with it, and I would.

 

Current plan is to ride it out until 20, by which point the problem is taken care of naturally, or he can leave. Or get a promotion with a more local relocation. It wouldn't help much, however, as she'd move too.

 

He has a young child with his ex-wife though, why would he even consider leaving that child to relocate?

 

It seems odd too, that he would worry that moving would be "too hard" on you, an adult, because of leaving your family. But he would leave his own baby/young child to be raised by an unbalanced woman and without him. The child is much more vulnerable than a grown woman.

 

I don't like that.

[whichwayisup]

I am sorry but how is someone supposed to do that exactly? One can't make someone change their mental state, that is completely on her.

 

No he cannot make her, but he can talk to her and suggest gently that she get help. Try to make her understand that her life has to go on, that he is sorry he hurt her but things are the way they are now and she has to try to work through this. He doesn't have to be mean or rude to her, this woman is still the mother of his children and will be a part of his life on some level.

 

There just seems to be no compassion here.

This is your house, hang the pictures you guys want to hang just like you decorate just the way you want.

 

Out of respect for the kids, it is not cool to just make all the pictures disappear and replace them, like the ones from their mom never existed. Keeping a few out isn't the end of the world.

[Anne Boleyn]

I'm curious as to why you bothered to say anything to your husband at all about the notes on the backs of the pictures. If it means nothing to you, why did you tell him about it. I'm sure you had an idea that he wouldn't like it and would see it as yet another way she's trying to "invade" your home and "get him back". I know most people in good marriages do discuss these things, but if it didn't bother you, why bother bringing it up at all? You could have just as easily put the picture back (or scanned it and replaced it) and went on about your merry business. Instead, you made sure he knew about it and this caused yet more drama (him taking pictures down at work).

 

I said something, first of all, because he was nearby when it happened, but secondly... I don't know, I just... Mentioned it. Like I mention 100 things a day. Just kind of a haphazard "Did you see this?" I didn't think he would or wouldn't take it one way or another.

 

I don't know... Thinking on it, I'd think spotting it, saying nothing, putting it back would seem more dishonest in saying something about if he knew it was there. I guess I don't understand why I would hide it... Or why, since it genuinely didn't bother me, I'd scan it, replace it, and destroy the evidence.

 

I guess if pressed, I would have expected he saw it, read it, and said something about how it's typical, and replaced it. And I don't think seeing it in the privacy of our home and mentioning it to my husband for his feedback is creating drama. I didn't know that he'd go to work and check his pictures there, but after showing him the initial picture and hearing that he thought it kind of ruined the sentiment behind the picture, it makes sense he checked the others. And since he wanted to take the one at home down and replace it with another, it makes sense he'd do the same in his office.

 

I know for a fact neither he or I thought that cycling the pictures down would have caused her to confront him in tears, accusing him of erasing their life together, especially since he replaced the pictures with other, recent pictures of the kids.

 

Also, if he knows that the pictures that he has on his desk are that bothersome to her, why does he bother doing it at all? I don't put pictures of my family up on my desk, it isn't something that HAS to be done. He could just remove the dramatic issue altogether.

 

Well here we have a rock and a hard place... He's always had pictures on his desk and in his office. As we now know, taking the pictures down all together causes her to fall to pieces and confront him over how it hurts her. So removing pictures actually creates, not removes drama.

 

And because the pictures are of the kids and he only had pictures of two of the three he has (the two he shares with her), he thought it was uncomfortable and awkward to exclude a child. When he put up pictures of our child together, she got upset and confronted him about how it was insensitive. So again, drama.

 

It would seem the only drama-free resolution to this problem is to display only two of his three kids, and only the pictures that she's given him on behalf of the kids, all of which had notes on them. I'm going to say I agree with him in that's not reasonable. He did accommodate her by not having a picture of me up, but the other requests aren't realistic requests to be made by an ex spouse.

 

I'm just saying that at some point, you both need to acknowledge that you play a role in her behavior. These foolish little games being played with pictures just seems that... foolish. Just let it go.

 

I've already said that the original affair contributed to her behavior. I also said that this behavior is a pattern for her. And honestly, I do not see how my finding a picture with a note on it at home and talking about it with my husband means I'm responsible for her behavior/reaction at his work when he takes down pictures because he doesn't like that they have love letters to him on them. Considering she reacted so poorly to the pictures removal and wanted to put them up in her area, I think his suspicion that she does this to feel like she has a hold on him somehow or has a secret connection of some sort isn't unfounded, which means he was reasonable in his assumptions.

 

I also don't think anybody is playing games with pictures. I made an accidental discovery and pointed it out. He felt the secret note ruined the intent behind the picture, so he wanted a new picture. When he went to work and checked out if the pictures there had the same messages and found they did, he exactly what he said he said he'd preferred at home... Switched them out with other pictures of the kids.

 

The thing is, everything he does isn't about her, but she thinks that EVERYTHING that he does has something to do with her.

 

It does sound like the 3 of you would benefit from group therapy together. It doesn't sound like she'd be interested in following through on that though. I'd be more concerned with why she still feels this burning desire to be with him, to reconcile or to hang on to what they had. Most people don't do that without a reason. What is she hanging on to? Has he sat her down and told her directly that it's over, it will never be again and she should stop her nonsense? I think you did say that he did, but I can't remember.

 

She is not interested in therapy.

 

I'm not sure where the burning desire is from... Any hope of a reconciliation has been gone for ages. It's been years. And yes, he sat down with her, numerous times, and has said that it has to stop. She just insists that one day he'll snap out of his fog, realize what he's missing, and come home.

 

It's really not that hard to understand why she would still be hanging on to her anger and feelings. It sounds like you already have an idea why... she didn't get her closure, she didn't really want her marriage to end, she misses him and quite possible still loves him. Those feelings don't go away easily. After 5 years, you'd think they would have but now that I know more about the situation it makes sense. She sees him all the time, between sharing time with the kids, making schedules, going to events for the children together, father's day together, working together. GAH! As a woman sort of in her shoes (sort of because I do have to deal with sharing my son with the woman my man cheated on me with) I can see why she'd be having so much trouble moving on.

 

I can't imagine spending THAT much time seeing my ex. Granted, it's pretty new for me, but wow! I know that if I were in her shoes, it would make me sick to my stomach. I'd rather keep our contact to each other very minimal and only about our son. It's the only way to move on. It sounds like your (you and your husband) hands are tied every which direction with this though.

 

We do try minimize contact... At work, there isn't much to be done because that's where she has the control in when to see him. Like she doesn't have to ask to come by, or ask him to come by, she can just go seek him out.

 

The schedules are worked out via text, and most communication we have is via text. When it came to events, kids functions, etc, we do it where only he went and I stayed behind with our child, but then the kids started asking after their sibling and why their sibling missed these special events. Then he started taking our child, and she'd say that our child was their child and introduce herself as Mrs. Boleyn, try to hold his hand, and so on. Then he said either she stopped doing this stuff because it was confusing people and the kids, or I came with. She said I should come with.

 

I thought this would bother her so I didn't force issues or encounters, but almost immediately she'd volunteer me to take the kids. Like one day one of the kids was sick at school and need to be picked up. My husband couldn't get out of work and she was at another job. She texted me and told me to go get the sick child and the other from preschool, then texted when she was supposed to get them after work, she texted again saying she wasn't coming until 5 hours later because she was shopping for a party. So I left work early and got the kids. We just had a snow day and she couldn't miss work and my husband was out-of-town, so I called out of work and she dropped them off that day. At school, she put me as the emergency contact and not her. If there's a problem they call me and not her. She couldn't make parent/teacher conferences, so she scheduled me to go.

 

So we've tried to accommodate and not force me on her, but she seems to be OK with it. Like now I just got a text saying she's not going to speech therapy with one of the kids tomorrow so she's keeping him home and if we want him to go, I should take him because she's packing and can't spare the time.

 

Also, I've been both the BS and the step-mom. I'm so glad my ex's ex-wife didn't act like a crazy loon like yours is/did. In fact, she and I have become very good friends and we still talk all the time even though he and I aren't together anymore. I think part of what made her able to respect me was that I stayed out of their business together with their son. I never tried to step in and parent him. I was a role model for him, I talked to him about stuff (when he asked my advice), but for the most part, parental issues with him were for my ex to deal with. Not me. I stayed out of it. I respected who she was and what she meant to him. To try and ignore the fact that they had a relationship, or that at one time he loved her and quite possible still did was something I just accepted. It is what it is. I still love my ex-husband too (and that was nearly 20 years ago), but I don't go stalking him and acting all crazy about it. I just remember him fondly and that's about it. Totally off topic here, I know, but I feel like I can talk to you.

 

It's OK. I don't mind at all. I like hearing how other blended families go about it and have relationships with each other. Very truthfully, I'm jealous we can't have that same system, but I fully realize our choices in having an affair led us to being unable to do so. Maybe it wouldn't have been possible regardless, considering how she is, but I know our choices robbed us of that more functional dynamic.

 

Just a thought... have you tried at all to befriend her? Despite the situation, you might be surprised by her response. It could be that her craziness will stop if he and you stop trying to ignore what they had. I don't know how you would go about doing that since it doesn't sound like she's easy to approach and who knows how she would react. You'd know that better than I would.

 

I've done everything... There was a period of time where it seemed like we were getting along, she asked me to photograph the kids birthday party, she let me plan the event, she sent friendly texts. Then a friend of mine who's truly a nice person and not a pot stirrer came to me and said that on a day where we had to bring the kids back to her about 4 hours early because I went to the ER, she called out and said it was because I went to the ER to be treated for bipolar disorder and so nobody was available to watch the kids. In reality I had been training hard for a marathon and pushed my body too far. My Lyme Disease flared up and I was admitted to get IV medication for 24 hours. Come to find out she'd been saying all sorts of crazy things. So the behavior didn't stop, she was just nice to my face.

 

I weighed out if the nice to my face was worth the gossip, especially since it was happening anyway, but decided it wasn't and we went back to as things were. She ignores I exist, I periodically say "of course she did" when informed of various things she says and does that are odd.

[Anne Boleyn]

I am sorry but how is someone supposed to do that exactly? One can't make someone change their mental state, that is completely on her.

 

Anna, I have dealt with similar issues and an ex wife that has not moved on. She is an adult and needs to fix what is broken in her and that is not anyone elses responsibility. My husband has structured things so he has as limited contact as possible, and all in writing. In something like this I would defer to his wishes and what he wants to do. I think I would feel the same as you, and wouldn't care about the pictures, etc. but it is his call.

 

This is your house, hang the pictures you guys want to hang just like you decorate just the way you want.

 

We also enjoy limited contact that's almost 100% child focused, so maybe it'll just take more time. The only time it's not is when, as I said in the OP, he's crossed her without realizing and she confronts him about it.

 

And I agree, it's my husband's call in the end and it's nice to hear there are others who can relate. Also glad to hear that you wouldn't be bothered. I'll admit, when my husband said it bothered him and he said why and it still didn't bother me, I was asking myself "is it me? Should I be offended by this?" But honestly, no matter how I sliced it, I was still seeing it as just a picture of the kids and wasn't bothered enough to remove it, though I could understand why my husband would want to switch it out.

 

Thank you very much.

[Raena]

My goodness, yeah she is a real pot stirrer then. At some point she has to let go. I just can't imagine hanging on that long to something that is over and done with. Good Lord!

 

I mean, yeah, I get it, she probably isn't ever going to be nice to you because of your role in her life. But she really has a screw loose to keep going on and on like this.

 

She's getting something out of it. I don't know what it is... maybe it's the idea that she is continually causing drama in your life just because she can. In any other given situation you'd shut her down and keep her out of your life but that isn't possible here. I don't know how you do it. All her drama would just make my head hurt. Heck, it's making my head hurt and I don't even know her.

[Got it]

No he cannot make her, but he can talk to her and suggest gently that she get help. Try to make her understand that her life has to go on, that he is sorry he hurt her but things are the way they are now and she has to try to work through this. He doesn't have to be mean or rude to her, this woman is still the mother of his children and will be a part of his life on some level.

 

There just seems to be no compassion here.

 

 

Out of respect for the kids, it is not cool to just make all the pictures disappear and replace them, like the ones from their mom never existed. Keeping a few out isn't the end of the world.

 

Come on, it has been 5 YEARS!!! This is outside the scope of reasonable or healthy. After reading all the events you really think it is reasonable for him to have to do this?

 

Come on, maybe at the first 12 months but at some point someone needs to address their abandonment and attachment issues and realize that you are in charge of your mental health and moving on.

 

Sorry but compassion is not about enabling the behavior. I think the fact she is a BS has completely colored some people's views here. This is not reasonable or healthy. Being a BS does not allow this behavior 5 years later and expect it to be tolerated. The courts wouldn't see it as such nor would a mental health professional.

 

I also really scratch my head that replacing pictures of the kids with pictures of the kids would cause them great anguish because they weren't pictures their mom had given. Do people really think kids remember those things? She will have pictures of them in HER house. Just like at her house she will do holidays, traditions, routines the way she wants and he will do what he wants to do in his. This is divorce, things are separate. They know their mother exists AT HER HOUSE and will be all about her when they are with her.

 

Taking the pictures down of the kids totally and not having any of them would hurt them. Replacing them with pictures of themselves would not. It has never crossed our mind to have pictures of my husband's ex wife in our house nor would she consider it appropriate to have pictures of him in her's. Things are separated now that they are divorce.

[Anne Boleyn]

He has a young child with his ex-wife though, why would he even consider leaving that child to relocate?

 

Two kids with her, one with me.

 

When it came to discussing the promotion, the first hurdle was the two kids he has with her. He didn't want to leave them and neither did I. However, as I said, she volunteered very quickly when she found out he was up for the promotion that if he relocated, she'd relocate with the kids too. She requested that we pay a portion of the moving costs and had actually discussed if she should set up a court date to get part of the moving bonus he would get to help her pay for the move as well as restructure her child support to reflect his pay increase.

 

Other than the sticking point of us paying for her total moving cost, we saw that issue as resolved.

 

]quote]It seems odd too, that he would worry that moving would be "too hard" on you, an adult, because of leaving your family. But he would leave his own baby/young child to be raised by an unbalanced woman and without him. The child is much more vulnerable than a grown woman.

 

I don't like that.

 

No, no... See above. She volunteered quickly that she'd move and we didn't see being separated from the kids as an issue because they'd have moved too. It quickly became a non-issue.

 

And he was worried about the move being too hard for me because at the time, as I said in a previous post, I had been diagnosed with Lyme Disease and was having a lot of complications, so my family was a big support in helping me with our child or all three of the kids, and my father who works at a hospital, was a huge source of moral support for my appointments and helping figure out what everything meant and how to treat it. He was worried that piling a move on top of that, away from a support system, and to an area with no friends, family, just his ex, would be just too hard on me.

 

To be truthful, and this is really hard to share because I feel like people will read into it what's not there or see something beyond the reality of it... I was (and to a degree still am) dealing with crippling, crippling depression as a result of the Lyme, both because of the diagnosis and what it meant (I went from running marathons to being unable to get out of bed) and because depression was one of my disease-triggered symptoms. And around the time I was at my worst in terms of depression was when I was just starting to get the anonymous texts about how I should kill myself, and I was really, really struggling.

 

His fear that a major move and disruption from the general area I've spent most of my life, as well as leaving my family, and going to an area that I'd be largely isolated when I was already struggling was really not an unfounded one. It would have been really, really hard to be dealing with that hopeless depression, something I've never had in my entire life like I had with this, and the issues of this illness, paired with the craziness of these texts and the issues with his ex, plus the everyday stress of kids without having a support system. A bad day and him at work on the road? I would have had nobody nearby to help me. And his promotion would have meant lots of traveling and being gone long hours. Being more alone in a strange place with no friends while managing depression and getting "kill yourself" texts...? He was right to be worried.

 

The kids would have been the first deal breaker, but because that wasn't an issue, it was my needs that was the deal breaker.

[Got it]

We also enjoy limited contact that's almost 100% child focused, so maybe it'll just take more time. The only time it's not is when, as I said in the OP, he's crossed her without realizing and she confronts him about it.

 

And I agree, it's my husband's call in the end and it's nice to hear there are others who can relate. Also glad to hear that you wouldn't be bothered. I'll admit, when my husband said it bothered him and he said why and it still didn't bother me, I was asking myself "is it me? Should I be offended by this?" But honestly, no matter how I sliced it, I was still seeing it as just a picture of the kids and wasn't bothered enough to remove it, though I could understand why my husband would want to switch it out.

 

Thank you very much.

 

My husband would be upset now because of all the negative actions that have taken place. If it had been prior to that, then no of course not. But with the parental alienation, attacks, etc. then yes he would see it as inappropriate and would take action.

 

It isn't about not respecting her as their mother. It is about her respecting him and the fact they are divorced. They are divorced. They interact about the kids but anything about "them" ended a long time ago and any remotely soft feelings in that regard died the day in the lawyer office when he started to start the procedure against the parental alienation.

 

Just like no matter how bad the marriage was it doesn't excuse the WS for cheating, no matter how badly the other party cheated does not excuse inappropriate or illegal behavior by the other spouse. It is not a carte blanche for decades longer.

 

B

[lollipopspot]

To be truthful, and this is really hard to share because I feel like people will read into it what's not there or see something beyond the reality of it... I was (and to a degree still am) dealing with crippling, crippling depression as a result of the Lyme, both because of the diagnosis and what it meant (I went from running marathons to being unable to get out of bed) and because depression was one of my disease-triggered symptoms.

 

I have a lot of compassion for you with this. It's very hard to deal with chronic illness. I know someone who's had a battle with Lyme too. (BTW, were you aware when you first got it, where, and was it treated in the beginning)?

[Anne Boleyn]

No he cannot make her, but he can talk to her and suggest gently that she get help. Try to make her understand that her life has to go on, that he is sorry he hurt her but things are the way they are now and she has to try to work through this. He doesn't have to be mean or rude to her, this woman is still the mother of his children and will be a part of his life on some level.

 

There just seems to be no compassion here.

 

He has talked to her, numerous times, and it results in her falling apart, saying how one day he'll come back, God tells her that he will, etc etc. She gets hysterical, beyond control, and does something crazy, like hit him or try to initiate sex, and then eventually he's faced with the choice of sitting with her until she's under control or leaving her a mess and taking the kids with him... Which, again, isn't helpful.

 

While I admit that it has been years since we've tried this full-on sit down method, even the little "you can't keep acting like we're married" comment or text results in a moderate breakdown, f you, f this, you broke me, you don't get it, one day you'll come back and fix this, etc etc. The last one of those we had was... A month ago? Around then.

 

When she's dating or in a relationship, she's fine. When she's not, she's not fine.

 

Out of respect for the kids, it is not cool to just make all the pictures disappear and replace them, like the ones from their mom never existed. Keeping a few out isn't the end of the world.

 

To be clear, taking all the pictures of the kids down was never an option. We have pictures of them everywhere around here. While the only one we have at home that she took is the picture in question, there are still tons and tons of other pictures. The kids, the two kids, the three kids together, two kids and dad, three kids and dad, etc etc. Even pictures taken at events where their mother was there but not pictures or pictures my husband took of them while at her house. The ones at work he did take down but they were replaced with different pictures of the kids and it wasn't because she took them it was because of the letters.

 

I think the only person who cares about what picture was taken by who is her. Otherwise I don't think they give much thought about it.

[Anne Boleyn]

My goodness, yeah she is a real pot stirrer then. At some point she has to let go. I just can't imagine hanging on that long to something that is over and done with. Good Lord!

 

I mean, yeah, I get it, she probably isn't ever going to be nice to you because of your role in her life. But she really has a screw loose to keep going on and on like this.

 

She's getting something out of it. I don't know what it is... maybe it's the idea that she is continually causing drama in your life just because she can. In any other given situation you'd shut her down and keep her out of your life but that isn't possible here. I don't know how you do it. All her drama would just make my head hurt. Heck, it's making my head hurt and I don't even know her.

 

A lot of ignoring and high roads.

 

In the end, I know it's not causing disruption with us and my husband is really, really transparent about it and what's going on so it's not like one or the other of us gets blindsided by what happens. Nobody coming up to us and springing stuff on us that one knew and the other didn't.

 

I don't expect friendship and I don't even expect that she'll ever have something nice to say about me and I'm accepting of this and it's OK.

 

I was just curious about what people thought of the note on the picture especially given the history.

[Anne Boleyn]

My husband would be upset now because of all the negative actions that have taken place. If it had been prior to that, then no of course not. But with the parental alienation, attacks, etc. then yes he would see it as inappropriate and would take action.

 

It isn't about not respecting her as their mother. It is about her respecting him and the fact they are divorced. They are divorced. They interact about the kids but anything about "them" ended a long time ago and any remotely soft feelings in that regard died the day in the lawyer office when he started to start the procedure against the parental alienation.

 

Just like no matter how bad the marriage was it doesn't excuse the WS for cheating, no matter how badly the other party cheated does not excuse inappropriate or illegal behavior by the other spouse. It is not a carte blanche for decades longer.

 

B

 

We don't excuse our affair and I admit that it certainly fueled more than little of her behavior. I think a lot of the reason we've given passes on this, ignored it, or let it be was because we said "she's a BS, this is normal." I wonder now how much of that contributes to her not actively trying to change the behavior or seek help for it.

 

Regardless, I'm talking out loud. Thank you for the feedback and the differing perspective.

[Anne Boleyn]

I have a lot of compassion for you with this. It's very hard to deal with chronic illness. I know someone who's had a battle with Lyme too.

 

Thank God... As I was typing that, I was terrified. The extent of the depression has been terrifying and it's been kind of my big, dirty secret. Again, I've never, ever had problems with depression. While I knew it existed and believed it was real, I guess I didn't realize how consuming it was.

 

The best way I've ever described it is that it's like your a bucket with a leak at the bottom. Sometimes the leak is huge and no matter how much you pour in, it's still emptying faster then it fills, sometimes it's small, so small you feel like it's not leaking at all... But it is and you don't know it until it's empty.

 

I was prepared for the onslaught of accusations that it's residual guilt, that it's karma, that it's punishment, that it's related to the affair... But it really, really isn't. We, my husband and I, worked through that and the feelings related to that years ago. This is all part of the Lyme... It started after the diagnosis, and when the other symptoms are fine, it's fine. When they're not, it's not.

 

I've never, ever gotten sick. I'm not a sick person or a person who gets ill. The whole process of it was terrifying.

 

(BTW, were you aware when you first got it, where, and was it treated in the beginning)?

I had a weird bug bite on my leg above my knee that hurt like a bruise. Figured it was a horsefly bite. A day later, it was red, inflamed, really painful, but not so painful that I couldn't run 10k that afternoon. The day after that, I swung my leg out of bed and the pain was like walking on 100 knives. My whole knee, thigh, and part of my shin were bright red and the part that was a bug bite had huge blisters. By that evening, I couldn't walk and the inner part of the bite was turning purple and black. My dad who's been in medicine for 30 years told me to go to the ER, which I did.

 

The doctor looked at it and diagnosed me with an ingrown hair.

 

Not even joking.

 

When a second doctor came by, she looked at it and said tick bite with necrotizing faciitis (sp... To lazy to look up correct spelling). I was in the hospital for 2 days. Was released, took the meds for 30 days, started having all sorts of random problems... Exhaustion, pain, forgetfulness... During my checkup, was told it was impossible it was Lyme. Finally went to a LLMD, retested my blood and CSF, found it was all Lyme positive, and started getting real treatment.

 

Tell your friend that getting a LLMD makes all the difference. Doctors swore I was nuts and it was things like MS until my LLMD thought to do a lumbar and check my CSF to confirm the 30 days of meds wasn't enough. Even with a tick bite that was documented by the ER and a L+ test, it took about 6 months to get the right treatment.

 

Now I still have problems that come up maybe every 6 weeks or so, but I was able to run a half marathon despite being told it was impossible. So tell your friend to hang in there... It's hard and a lot of people don't understand, but when you have your breakthrough, it's magic. That said, I was just diagnosed with chronic degenerative Lyme, which means some of what I lost will not come back, and it's scary, but it's nice to know I have a doctor to help out, finally. It killed me that doctors were willing to give me 1 year standing refills on oxy and perc, but not antibiotics. I literally had a doctor say to me when I said the pain wasn't getting better "I gave you a rx for oxy... Did you fill it?" I said no, and he said "Well I don't know how you expect to feel better if you won't take the pain reliever." Um... Rlly? LoL!

 

So, now that I've hijacked my own thread with my Lyme...

Edited January 31, 2014 by Anne Boleyn