Why does it hurt so much to talk to H about his freebee?

[oldshirt]

I was always more interested in the open relationship than he was.

 

Before the A, he was only mildly interested in sleeping with someone else. He considered what we had special, in large part because we had only been with each other. Now that that has changed, it has changed.

 

He loves me and he loves sex with me, but he would like to have the opportunity to experience sex with someone else.

 

 

 

So am I correct in seeing this more as a global open marriage issue now rather than as some kind of response to your affair?

 

 

In otherwords he is having some interests in being with another woman just to experience another woman for general variety's sake rather than as some kind of "evening the score" or "revenge affair" issue?

 

 

And you are seeing it more as you supporting his desire to experience another person rather than as some kind of penance for your affair?

 

 

Am I understanding that correctly??

 

 

If so, this is really an open marriage issue and not really an infidelity issue. The infidelity is really just an added layer of complication and kind of a red herring really.

 

 

If this is all correct, I'll say what I said a few pages back - open marriage has to be approached from a solid foundation of trust, open communication, respect, compassion and honesty. It's also important that there be no unresolved conflicts or baggage or anything like that.

 

 

As someone who has spent almost a decade in the swinging lifestyle (different from open marriage but still many of the same issues) I don't think your slate is cleaned enough and your baggage stowed enough for open marriage yet. I don't think you two are healed and recovered from the affair enough yet.

 

 

As I've said many times, I do not have an automatic, knee-jerk condemnation of open marriage and don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with it if it involves the right people for the right reasons. I just simply don't think you are in the right situation for it yet.

[oldshirt]

 

 

 

Before the A, he was only mildly interested in sleeping with someone else. He considered what we had special, in large part because we had only been with each other. Now that that has changed, it has changed.

 

He loves me and he loves sex with me, but he would like to have the opportunity to experience sex with someone else.

 

 

 

I think I actually "get" that in a way and see his point.

 

 

I do think it's kind of sad and disappointing in a way but there are some very pragmatic points to be made here. It's almost like an, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" type of thing.

 

 

A similar analogy would be someone valuing and hanging on to their virginity. Then one night they get drunk and do someone from the bar and then realize they were only declining sex to maintain their virginity and since that is gone now, no reason to keep their pants on any more and now swings the other direction and becomes promiscuous.

 

 

It seems a little sad in a way but I get it.

[Zenstudent]

I think I actually "get" that in a way and see his point.

 

I do think it's kind of sad and disappointing in a way but there are some very pragmatic points to be made here. It's almost like an, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" type of thing.

 

A similar analogy would be someone valuing and hanging on to their virginity. Then one night they get drunk and do someone from the bar and then realize they were only declining sex to maintain their virginity and since that is gone now, no reason to keep their pants on any more and now swings the other direction and becomes promiscuous.

 

It seems a little sad in a way but I get it.

I like the summary. Sad, maybe, but isn't it just the way it is - the relationship and the two people in it aren't the same anymore.

[Zenstudent]

I was always more interested in the open relationship than he was.

 

Before the A, he was only mildly interested in sleeping with someone else. He considered what we had special, in large part because we had only been with each other. Now that that has changed, it has changed.

 

He loves me and he loves sex with me, but he would like to have the opportunity to experience sex with someone else.

I can really relate to this - the above bolded is the challenge, isn't it? If you both acknowledge the fact that the game and premisses have changed, it's "just" a matter of discussing it and finding a way to deal with it.

[oldshirt]

I can really relate to this - the above bolded is the challenge, isn't it? If you both acknowledge the fact that the game and premisses have changed, it's "just" a matter of discussing it and finding a way to deal with it.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree as well.

[Confused48]

I used my hall pass about 6 months past d-day on her suggestion, it had nothing to do with revenge or punishment, absolutely nothing.

 

 

Oh, my. So you are in a very unique position. Do tell, how is it now? I've heard so many tales of woe about how taking the hall pass is not good. And they all resonate with me.

 

So from your experience, taking a hall pass may be not so bad. For most of us its not recommended. But you, twice, tell more....

 

I think that your discussions about this may have a lot more to do with validation than anything else.

 

From what was said later it is clear that these acts and/or intended acts are a lot about validation. And external validation is a very big red flag. If you or I or CM are looking for external validation from a hall pass, are we not just total scum?

[compulsivedancer]

Oldshirt, H said that you get it. Actually, having you explain it back to me in your words makes it easier to understand why H wants to wait vs. get it over with. He's said he wants to heal us first BEFORE going and doing anything, but to me it made more sense to get it out of the way.

 

I guess it makes sense that if it's more about exploration than about punishment or retribution, that he would want to wait until we are on solid footing again.

[tired girl]

CD,

 

Are you still interested in the concept of an open M?

[thummper]

I was always more interested in the open relationship than he was.

 

Before the A, he was only mildly interested in sleeping with someone else. He considered what we had special, in large part because we had only been with each other. Now that that has changed, it has changed.

 

He loves me and he loves sex with me, but he would like to have the opportunity to experience sex with someone else.

 

 

God, Compulsive, I really fear for the future of your marriage. I think this is just playing with fire. Still, it's your choice, yours and his. I beg you to be true to each other! I'm sorry if I come across as old fashioned and out of date. I will always think that a married couple should be committed only to each other. When you get involved with someone else it's so easy to become smitten with them and forget your promises and vows to your spouse. I'm so afraid for you two.

Edited February 3, 2014 by thummper

[OnlyHonesty]

I believe that whether one forgives or not, once a woman has slept with another, it will never be the same again period. The damage will always leave a scar and that special connection, respect, the cherishing of your femininity and the soulful connection becomes severed. Attempting to navigate such waters of betrayal, hypocrisy and anger shall only result in a ship wrecked vessel that is now empty.

 

I don't understand people nowadays, the true meaning of honour, loyalty, monogamy, mutual respect, pair bonding and true commitment are lost. Marriage becomes a sham and the phrase 'Open marriage' is an oxymoron and contrary to the point of taking vows. Of course, all are just my opinion, take it as you will but I believe this marriage was over as soon as you were penetrated by someone other than your husband.

[thummper]

Having followed their saga almost from the beginning and having great faith that they would rediscover their love and stay true to each other, I feel almost betrayed and bamboozled myself. I feel it's all been a sham from the first post. I can hardly believe her saying that she may still be in favor of a damn open marriage again. These two are standing on the brink of disaster. I just don't understand why they, especially CD, considering her original betrayal, would even consider a disgusting step like this. If that's what she's really interested in, I'm sure the OM is ready, willing, and able to renew their "acquaintance. After all, that's what an "open marriage" is all about isn't it? Go for it, since apparently a husband isn't enough for you.

Edited February 3, 2014 by thummper

[atreides]

I don't think he is intending to punish me. I think he genuinely thinks he needs to experience sex with someone else. But because of the emotions involved, it comes across as bitter to me.

 

He is waiting not to hold it over my head, but because he doesn't want to do it out of anger and risk turning into an RA or doing something he would regret. He wants to do it out of a need to understand and experience.

 

I understand his reasoning. I even agree. But it doesn't make the feelings any nicer.

 

I will say what i said before... you have to decide whether you two are going to be in an M and then fix that first.

 

I know you both, you more than he prior to the A when he described it as more of "theoretical" of having an open relationship, but that line of thinking really needs to be dropped for now.

 

When i read his posts and yours, something that is in common is that the freebie comes off as "checks & balances" this is NOT material of an open marriage. That is the impression i got when reading his latter posts a while back. It's not revenge and a freebie is not an A or "cheating" because it has consent, however you need to let go of the fantasy, the both of you for a long while until you two are in a healthy M.

 

Also, let me put it this way to help answer your question; basically, if you had a healthy "open marriage" the emotion that drives "checks & balances" would be absent as it exists because pain exists when thinking or when the reality of sleeping with some one else occurs. That is not material for an open marriage. You two are on the verge of hurting yourselves again, because you both still love each other but allow this fantasy of exploration to get the best of you when in reality and in my opinion you are not ready for that kind of relationship.

 

He is still hurt and as he said, he is not one to easily forgive although he dismissed that very important statement with a short quip. So because he is hurt, these feeling drive the "exploration" freebie... not one of genuine exploration. He said it himself, he has thoughts often about the A, all the more to show 1. how much he loves you and 2. the pain that comes with when love is broken and 3. how he is not even close to being where one needs to be in an open relationship.

As for you... you have gone through a lot to rediscover the love you had for your H and you want him exclusively in reality, thus it too hurts to think about it. As it is challenging the very core of your understanding just how much your love and feelings are requited and it does not help when he brings it up.

You two still have a long ways to go and the good news is that it is still early in the recovery process compared to most.

I think of it as a good thing that the thought of your H with another women can be painful.. after all what's wrong with caring about your M and your H?

Edited February 3, 2014 by atreides

[road]

I can really relate to this - the above bolded is the challenge, isn't it? If you both acknowledge the fact that the game and premisses have changed, it's "just" a matter of discussing it and finding a way to deal with it.

 

 

 

 

 

So now that you have used your Hall Pass what has it done for you?

[oldshirt]

Oldshirt, H said that you get it. Actually, having you explain it back to me in your words makes it easier to understand why H wants to wait vs. get it over with. He's said he wants to heal us first BEFORE going and doing anything, but to me it made more sense to get it out of the way.

 

I guess it makes sense that if it's more about exploration than about punishment or retribution, that he would want to wait until we are on solid footing again.

 

Yup, this is about the concept of open marriage in general and not about RAs, retribution, evening the score or penance for the affair. This is simply about consensually allowing others into your marital bed as a lifestyle option.

 

That is a whole other discussion and a whole other set of risks, benefits and parameters.

 

The fact that you are having distress, tears and angst over discussions of it now means you are no where near ready to do it.

 

My recommendation is put it away indefinitely for now and a few years down the road after you've all had a chance to heal and rebuild if you still want to revisit that idea then, you can see where things are then.

 

It's just simply a bad idea now.

 

Whether it's ever right or wrong in general is up for endless debate, but it's a universal slam dunk for now.

[compulsivedancer]

I (we) believe that every couple has the right to write their own marriage contract, and has the right to navigate their marriage together.

 

We do not necessarily hold traditional views on marriage, but have generally had a fairly traditional relationship.

 

The problem, for me, with infidelity is not a problem of sex but rather a problem of one person in the couple lying and acting without the other person's consent. In doing so, I took away his right to make choices in his life based on truth.

 

I believe that whether one forgives or not, once a woman has slept with another, it will never be the same again period. The damage will always leave a scar and that special connection, respect, the cherishing of your femininity and the soulful connection becomes severed. Attempting to navigate such waters of betrayal, hypocrisy and anger shall only result in a ship wrecked vessel that is now empty.

 

I don't understand people nowadays, the true meaning of honour, loyalty, monogamy, mutual respect, pair bonding and true commitment are lost. Marriage becomes a sham and the phrase 'Open marriage' is an oxymoron and contrary to the point of taking vows. Of course, all are just my opinion, take it as you will but I believe this marriage was over as soon as you were penetrated by someone other than your husband.

[compulsivedancer]

CD,

 

Are you still interested in the concept of an open M?

 

Not for myself. I doubt H would ever trust me again based on how I acted in my affair. In addition to cheating, I did not follow any of the rules we agreed upon, and took some risks I should not have taken.

 

However, if H needs to experience sex with someone else, then I think I will be okay with it. As long as he's doing it for himself and not for revenge.

[tired girl]

I think I was asking more in terms of open M on his end. I get the impression that you are no longer interested in those terms for your M.

 

If an open M is no longer what you are interested in, are you being honest with him about your feelings on this?

[compulsivedancer]

Having followed their saga almost from the beginning and having great faith that they would rediscover their love and stay true to each other, I feel almost betrayed and bamboozled myself. I feel it's all been a sham from the first post. I can hardly believe her saying that she may still be in favor of a damn open marriage again. These two are standing on the brink of disaster. I just don't understand why they, especially CD, considering her original betrayal, would even consider a disgusting step like this. If that's what she's really interested in, I'm sure the OM is ready, willing, and able to renew their "acquaintance. After all, that's what an "open marriage" is all about isn't it? Go for it, since apparently a husband isn't enough for you.

 

I'm not planning to sleep with anyone else. I'm pretty happy with what I've got.

[compulsivedancer]

I think I was asking more in terms of open M on his end. I get the impression that you are no longer interested in those terms for your M.

 

If an open M is no longer what you are interested in, are you being honest with him about your feelings on this?

 

I don't know. But since he's not planning on doing it any time soon, I don't have to decide right now. I have time to work out my feelings on the matter.

[atreides]

Not for myself. I doubt H would ever trust me again based on how I acted in my affair. In addition to cheating, I did not follow any of the rules we agreed upon, and took some risks I should not have taken.

 

However, if H needs to experience sex with someone else, then I think I will be okay with it. As long as he's doing it for himself and not for revenge.

 

It should not be for revenge which i can't see that it is but also not for a "checks & balances" and most of all... to be sure it is genuine that he is finally past the A or just in my opinion, it would not be genuine "exploration." You are right that he would likely trigger hard if you were to venture anytime soon into seeking an open relationship but in all fairness... in time anything can happen. Who knows, perhaps you two evolve a very transparent relationship where second guessing each other's motives is something in the long past.

 

My advise for your H is to heal, bottom line... if i were you.. i just would not accept any "cover explanation" he would give for sexual exploration until he has and at that point i would bet the need for a freebie would dissipate and it would likely be were it was prior to the A, "theoretical."

 

Transparency is key, as you said it... it's not the sex, it's the deceit, betrayal, manipulative denial and point blank lies that come with an A that are so devastating.

 

Just don't be impatient and work on healing together... maybe more date nights or an extended weekend vacation.

[thummper]

I'm not planning to sleep with anyone else. I'm pretty happy with what I've got.

 

God, I hope so. You've been an inspiration to me, and I think a lot of others in your obvious love and concern for one another. I have never been able to understand how a husband and wife, in love and committed to one another, could seriously want to "try out" sex with another man or woman. If that's what they really want, why not just stay single and have affairs with whomever you take a fancy to. There's no love, no real caring (outside of carnal lust), no future, nothing to build a lasting relationship on. I can understand the desire to "sample the wares" of as many of the opposite sex as is humanly possible. I've been known to gaze longingly at a lovely woman myself. But, i'm a guy. I guess guys do that. That's the nature of the human condition. But we don't have to give in to our baser instincts, like animals in the rut. I've grown to admire and respect you and CM, and the thought of you two developing this kind of empty lifestyle is very disheartening. Please stay strong and concentrate on keeping your love alive and growing.