Patience.....one of the fruits..

[Moose]

Of the Spirit.

 

Sometimes I can't help myself in this area of my Spiritual walk. Certain people know how to push my buttons. I already have a short fuse and always have. I don't see that changing anytime soon, although my growth has dampered my reaction.

 

I particularly get angry at those who choose to poke fun, or disrespect my religion. Why is it that patience and long-suffering seem to be the slowest blossoming fruits I inherited?

 

How do you deal with people that have a clear disregard, and even a personal goal to take your personal thoughts, and views and totally trash them? I try to ignore them, but I feel compelled to defend myself.....any thoughts?

 

Oh.....and I don't care to hear from people out to trash this thread either, (you know who you are).

[Zoot]

The verse you have to hang onto....is that Jesus said they aren't offended because of YOU .....but because of the HIM that is IN YOU. So......it's an honor my friend.....not a bad thing.

 

I could say a lot here....but in an open forum.....it's not taken very well. Look into your own heart Moose..the answers are there. I bet you are one great guy! Don't stop and think....just go with your spirit. You'll not only be okay...but one of the blessed ones.

[Mustard Bomb]

Maybe your problem with anger is outside your religion?

 

I mean, the thing is, debates are debates. It's nothing personal, but you seem to get so wound up it's indicative of some weird internal suffering - like you just can't take the thought that people don't automatically believe everything you say?

 

In a strange way, being taught how to argue well is being taught how to lose well: how to concede points and learn from the tactics of your opponents. No offense, but you do not do this well. You lose like a five year old.

 

Being godly, being a terrific husband and father (which, from all accounts, you are ) is just not enough to make you right to all strangers. It's not authority, and it's not reason. Reasonable people do not obey someone just because they claim they are virtuous.

 

I guess my question is this: why not just bump up your argumentation standards? If you want to save people, these tactics will help. You get defeated by everyone, every time, and it's not even hard to learn how to debate from the internet. Just look up logic, and fallacies, and normal civil debate manners, and make a study of it.

 

I would love to see a debate between you and someone like Dyer where you were just not insulting and desperate all of the time - if you were at his level - it would be so educational. I think people could learn a lot from you if you just changed a few things.

[Zoot]

Originally posted by Mustard Bomb

I would love to see a debate between you and someone like Dyer where you were just not insulting and desperate all of the time - if you were at his level - it would be so educational. I think people could learn a lot from you if just changed a few things.

 

So....for you to understand where Moose is coming from.....it would take a compromise? What if the compromise is what is bothering him? (maybe only Moose will understand what I am saying.)

[Mustard Bomb]

Originally posted by Zoot

So....for you to understand where Moose is coming from.....it would take a compromise? What if the compromise is what is bothering him? (maybe only Moose will understand what I am saying.)

 

No, I think I get his perspective, and it could be a good one. But we are the sum total of our texts, really, and there are quite a few religious people here who manifest their religion better than he does. When I read Dyer, Moimeme, or Quankanne, or HokeyReligions, I want to be a better, more logical, and more spiritual, person. When I read Moose when he goes crazy, I just feel normal, reasonable, exasperation.

 

I frankly think his anger is misplaced - it should not be on the audience, it should be on himself.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by Moose

How do you deal with people that have a clear disregard, and even a personal goal to take your personal thoughts, and views and totally trash them?

At first you seem to tnhik the porblem is with you, mentuining the failure to inherit a spiritual trait. Then you seem to blame others for provoking yuo--are you really looking to better yourself, or are you just trying to whine again?

 

I think being religious is not enough, and that bothers you. You should also work on your maturity, which ncludes learning how to deal with the fact that your poorly npresented beliefs will often be ill recieved.

 

aplogogies for typographical errrs.

[StillHurtin]

I know how ya feel Moose, I also have a short fuse, always have. My H also has a short fuse. I wish one of us was calm in the situations that causes us to become angry.

 

Several years ago H drank, a lot. It was the last straw when he drove my kids home drunk from a sporting event. I told him he either quits drinking and gets help w/ his anger or me and the kids will leave. I was serious this time, I couldn't handle it. He quit drinking (been sober over 2 years) and our physician perscribed him an anti-depressant. He said his serotin levels were off balance. The medication seemed to be working but he stopped taking them b/c he didn't need them ( I beg to differ)

Our physician also prescribed the same medication for me when H had his A while we were seperated. It has helped my short fuse out tremedously. I only take half a pill and it helps a lot. Have you thought about seeing your physician?

 

You seem like a great guy and your W and kids are so lucky to have you as a H and a father. If your short fuse is causing family problems I would suggest having a talk w/ your physician. GL, Moose!

[RowanRavyn]

Moosey Moose!!

 

ARe you just talking about on here, or IRL?

 

One of the nasty things about these little boards is that it is so easy to have things misconstrued. To be misunderstood. To have your passion misunderstood for anger.

 

What might appear to be righteous indignation to you, may well appear to be a load of self-righteous malarky to another. The mood of the person reading a given post can convey meaning to it that you didn't intend.

 

When you and Dyer aren't going at each other just for the sake of going at each other, I have a lot of respect for both of you. You are both passionate about your beliefs. Your beliefs seem to be based on an emotional love for God. Dyers are based on an educational understanding of God. I can honestly say that I don't think I know two men who love the "I am" more. Yet you both get so stuck on tearing the other down!!!

 

I think when you are righteous you don't always have to prove your rightness. We are cautioned to speak the truth IN LOVE. Not out of a need to prove someone else wrong, or to prove ourselves right. If you aren't speaking in love you are as a clanging cymbol.

 

Patience is a hard one to get a grasp on. Rule number one NEVER PRAY FOR IT. You will be afforded a gazillion opportunities to find it.

 

Chin up Moosey Moose!!

[RowanRavyn]

"Where there is much desire to learn, there of necessity will be much arguing, much writing, many opinions; for opinion in good men is but knowledge in the making."

- John Milton

Areopagitica

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by RowanRavyn

Dyers are based on an educational understanding of God. I can honestly say that I don't think I know two men who love the "I am" more. Yet you both get so stuck on tearing the other down!!!

An educational understanding of the "I am" comforts me in my emotional pursuit of Godliness--it in no way replaces an emotional love for God. It's a supplement--I don't lack religious emotion. I recognize you're trying to spin both of our faiths in a positive light, but pure emotion is not neccesarliy admirable if you're using it to hurt other people.

 

I in no way "get stuck in tearing [Moose] down"--I simply do everything with in my powers to hold Moose accountable for his OWN statements, and refuse to allow God [whom I adore with both Love as well as scholarship] to be responsible for things that hurt other people.

 

Scholarship simply adds rigour to love. Many emotional, spiritual people have a deep love for God, but recognize [for example] evolution as a scientific reality. The fact that I've studied not only basic biology but also enough about the cultures that authored the Creation myths found in Genesis 1 and 2 only allows me to be comfortable with that belief on a academic level, it's not a supplement to faith nor emotional devotion.

 

One of the mysteries of adulthood is personal responsibility. It saddens me to see people blaming God for their problems--whether it be hatred, ignorance, or a lack of patience. I want God removed from the personal responsibility equation, so that humanity in general can start bringing about the Kingdom of God on Earth, instead of waiting foolishly until they die for God to make changes for them. It is for that reason that I persist in "tearing" the artful dodging of responsibility down--not as an attack on Moose, but as a defense of God himself.

 

This took me over a half-hour to write, but I wanted to be totally clear on this one.

[RowanRavyn]

Originally posted by dyermaker

 

An educational understanding of the "I am" comforts me in my emotional pursuit of Godliness--it in no way replaces an emotional love for God. It's a supplement--I don't lack religious emotion. I recognize you're trying to spin both of our faiths in a positive light, but pure emotion is not neccesarliy admirable if you're using it to hurt other people.

 

I in no way "get stuck in tearing [Moose] down"--I simply do everything with in my powers to hold Moose accountable for his OWN statements, and refuse to allow God [whom I adore with both Love as well as scholarship] to be responsible for things that hurt other people.

 

Scholarship simply adds rigour to love. Many emotional, spiritual people have a deep love for God, but recognize [for example] evolution as a scientific reality. The fact that I've studied not only basic biology but also enough about the cultures that authored the Creation myths found in Genesis 1 and 2 only allows me to be comfortable with that belief on a academic level, it's not a supplement to faith nor emotional devotion.

 

One of the mysteries of adulthood is personal responsibility. It saddens me to see people blaming God for their problems--whether it be hatred, ignorance, or a lack of patience. I want God removed from the personal responsibility equation, so that humanity in general can start bringing about the Kingdom of God on Earth, instead of waiting foolishly until they die for God to make changes for them. It is for that reason that I persist in "tearing" the artful dodging of responsibility down--not as an attack on Moose, but as a defense of God himself.

 

This took me over a half-hour to write, but I wanted to be totally clear on this one.

 

 

Dyer, I didn't mean to imply that you were an emotion-less, scholar. Scholars are by and large passionate people!! I have never doubted your love of God. To me it is obvious. So, I offer an apology for that.

 

What you have written is beautiful, and obviously came from your heart. I agree with a great deal of what you are saying. I respect you so much for taking the time to carefully say what you mean.

 

I do still think that often times, what we ALL say should be a bit more tempered, and a bit less "tempered".

[RowanRavyn]

Originally posted by RowanRavyn

"Where there is much desire to learn, there of necessity will be much arguing, much writing, many opinions; for opinion in good men is but knowledge in the making."

- John Milton

Areopagitica

 

I thought this could bear with repeating.

[RowanRavyn]

As Iron Sharpens Iron, So One Man Sharpens Another. Proverbs 27:17

[Moose]

Wow! Some great responses here.....I truly appreciate this, all of you.

 

I want to make it clear what is truly bothering me. It's not so much the debates, and not so much that I'm a childish loser. I come off that way I'm sure.....but truth be told, I'm a great sport. I have to be, I have to teen age sons that can kick my behind in almost all physical games. ( Usually it's both of them against me).

 

It's when something I say is taken totally out of context. Like I tried to explain to Dyer one time, I could say it's raining cats and dogs, and I'll get a whole lecture on how that would be impossible. I ALREADY KNOW THAT.....it's a figure of speech. Another example is in another thread where I made a statement that all divorces seem to have one of the participants fit into a catagory of being selfish, or lazy. I get all kinds of BS examples on how that statement isn't true.

 

I know that I need to work on expressesing myself, and MOI makes it's perfectly clear that I need help with my English....

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that alot of times, I feel that I get drilled for some things that people obviously know what I mean, even if it's not perfectly explained, yet they feel compelled to piss me off and produce an arguement out of it, just to argue. And yes, that makes me mad.

 

Maybe your problem with anger is outside your religion?

 

I mean, the thing is, debates are debates. It's nothing personal, but you seem to get so wound up it's indicative of some weird internal suffering - like you just can't take the thought that people don't automatically believe everything you say?

 

No, I really don't think I have a problem with people not automatically believing what I say. But as we all know, denial could be a symptom. I think it's more that I can't stand it when people know where I'm coming from, and what I meant, but choose to blow it out of proportion for sake of argueing. That's when I get pissed.

 

Reasonable people do not obey someone just because they claim they are virtuous.

 

I hope you aren't under the impression that I'm claming to be, "virtuous". Because I'm nowhere even close. If you don't believe me, look up more of my threads. I have problems, some major, too. You might've even seen where I said there is no sin greater than the next. That applies to all men. I'm not better than anyone.

 

I guess my question is this: why not just bump up your argumentation standards? If you want to save people, these tactics will help. You get defeated by everyone, every time, and it's not even hard to learn how to debate from the internet. Just look up logic, and fallacies, and normal civil debate manners, and make a study of it.

 

This is where you are absolutley incorrect. You claim that I get defeated.....my thoughts and views, and message gets out there doesn't it? It depends on how you define defeat Mustard Bomb. The way I look at it, and the hundreds of PM's of encouragements, thank you notes, questions of the heart I get......I'm pretty dang successful if you ask me. Sure, there is plenty of room for improvement though, I will agree to that section of your post.

 

So....for you to understand where Moose is coming from.....it would take a compromise? What if the compromise is what is bothering him? (maybe only Moose will understand what I am saying.)

 

I do know where you're coming from. Compromise is difficult when you believe in something whole heartedly. Then to have someone go and take that apart piece by piece just to get your crawl, not for trying to understand, really puts you in a defensive mode. That's when everyone construdes that as being a poor loser I suppose.

[Moose]

PS, thanks RR, and Still Hurtin for your comments and encouragement. Means a lot to me.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by Moose

I guess what I'm trying to say is that alot of times, I feel that I get drilled for some things that people obviously know what I mean, even if it's not perfectly explained, yet they feel compelled to piss me off and produce an arguement out of it, just to argue. And yes, that makes me mad.

so the problem is them, not you, yeah? i guess i just dont; like the ide aof yuo starting a thread asking for help to better yoursself, when youre really just underlining the fact that you;re a victim. It;s not "help me learn to communicate like an adult", it;s "help me dela with the behavior of OTHER PEOPLE"--it;s just dissapointign, especially to all the poeple who saw you asking for help byut didnt know better.

 

by the way, just because i resent being an example--raining cats and dogs makes sense, it s a comomn hyperbole. voioce carrying no wieght in the wnid makes NO sense at all, even inc context--you just didn;t want to address the point at hand; which is fine, but it;s not anyone else;s fault.

[moimeme]

.....my thoughts and views, and message gets out there doesn't it?

 

Clearly not since, by your own admission:

 

I think it's more that I can't stand it when people know where I'm coming from, and what I meant, but choose to blow it out of proportion for sake of argueing. That's when I get pissed.

 

We only have words on a page to go by. If people are misconstruing 'where you're coming from and what you meant', then clearly your message is not getting out there. Rather, it's obscured by how it's expressed.

 

I frequently find people misconstruing my meaning. So I then post further clarification. You could do that, too, rather than calling names and becoming insulting.

[Moose]

I do need help in communicating Dyer. And I'm following some of the suggestions that are offered to me. I'm sorry if you think it's anything otherwise.

 

It's clear how you deal with it, you've just proved it. I'd appreciate something a little less condesending.

[Moose]

I frequently find people misconstruing my meaning. So I then post further clarification. You could do that, too, rather than calling names and becoming insulting.

 

I don't recall calling anyone names, or insulting anyone, I may have, but I just don't remember a particular instance. My problem is, from what I'm learning here, is that I lack posting further clarification, or when I do, I don't come off clear enough. That's where I need help.

[StillHurtin]

Your welcome Moose. I know at one point in my life I would get upset w/ other ppl's opinions on another forum that I am a member of. H always told me that I need to calm down and stop letting them upset me so much. I got into plenty of arguments w/ the women (all women forum) on the board. I even quit going for some time until I was getting emails asking me to plz come back. I just left the women alone that pushed my buttons. I don't answer their post, and they don't answer mine. We all have different opinions and we should ALL respect other ppl's opininions. If we don't like it, let it be and let them think what they want. My H always would tell me "Opinions are like a**h***s, everyone has one." Not really a nice thing to say but it's true.

[quankanne]

My problem is, from what I'm learning here, is that I lack posting further clarification, or when I do, I don't come off clear enough. That's where I need help

 

maybe it's something akin to turning in the rough draft of a final project, when it's much, much better to polish it until you the message comes through clearly and with some oomph behind it?

 

I appreciate the compliment, mustard, but a lot of times some of the "better" posts I get in are rewrites of rewrites of rewrites -- I often start off with my initial thought or reaction, then polish until the fangs or fuzziness are removed, and I sound halfway intelligent (you'd giggle madly if you were ever forced to hear me actually voice an opinion, not write it out). Moose, if you maybe try doing that a couple of times – polishing your work after you get your initial thought out there – then submit the actual post, that might help people see the content you are aiming for ...

[Moose]

maybe it's something akin to turning in the rough draft of a final project, when it's much, much better to polish it until you the message comes through clearly and with some oomph behind it?

 

That's more my lingo....thanks Quank!