Author M30USA Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) Ok, I'm gonna go with both. And then you all can correct me, lol. WARNING...here's my answer: E! Nothing can separate us from the love of God. John 3:16 says that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. He loved us, even without Christ's sacrifice. Though of course, if we sin, we're separated from fellowship with God. But that doesn't change God's love for us. Romans 8 highlights more about how God will continue to love us, no matter what we're going through, or no matter what forces may act upon us. imo, lol. What do you think? I guess it boils down to the question of whether or not God loves those who wind up in hell. I know it's commonly taught that God loves everybody--but can anyone find Scriptural proof of this? There are at least a few verses where God says that he actually hates a person (such as Esau). Edited March 10, 2014 by M30USA 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) Cool Pie, I didn't look at the answer in your next post:D Amen, this is a really good one! You got it! Well, at least my opinion of the right answer...but I hope to get some clarification on the matter. This could be a good discussion. Pie, I've always thought this Scripture was directed to the believers…but it's tricky because God loves everyone- then there's the factor of sin... It is a good question: does God still love those who are in hell (as M30 points out)? And then sin and how that factors in. We're studying Romans 8 at church right now, and Paul tells us that nothing can separate us from God's love. But I guess that's either meant for believers, or means that nothing can stop God from loving us. I guess it boils down to the question of whether or not God loves those who wind up in hell. I know it's commonly taught that God loves everybody--but can anyone find Scriptural proof of this? There are at least a few verses where God says that he actually hates a person (such as Esau). Ok, now this is getting in to Romans 9, so that's too far ahead (we're in Romans 8). So I'm not going to be able to answer this, lol. But it is a good point. Does God hate anyone? Looking into it, it seems that some people think Malachi 1 is referencing the nation of Edom when "Esau" is used...? Versus "Jacob", the nation of Israel. I don't know though. Or maybe God hated Esau for a moment, but not for eternity? It seemed that Esau did alright by the end (wealth, wives, kids, land, etc), except a kind of tragic death I think. Sometimes, I think the opposite of love is apathy, not hatred. Hatred has an intensity and focus on the object that is similar to love (does that make sense?), but with apathy, the object isn't even on the radar. Edited March 10, 2014 by pie2 Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I guess it boils down to the question of whether or not God loves those who wind up in hell. I know it's commonly taught that God loves everybody--but can anyone find Scriptural proof of this? There are at least a few verses where God says that he actually hates a person (such as Esau). This is a difficult one. Again the Esau thing has perplexed me. I've always wondered why God allowed Jacob to deceive his father or why this was acceptable. The siblings were fighting even in the womb- was Esau jealous already- that's the impression I got. I know Jacob was chosen, but have to wonder if Esau did something, or God knew he would do something to loose his birthright (which was lost in the womb?) or knew his heart? After reading this article, I don't agree completely, but it does give an overview. Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau (Malachi 1:3; Romans 9:13)? What I must keep in mind is God is completely about His will, not what we think is right or wrong. There is a bigger picture that is much more important. Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 Looking into it, it seems that some people think Malachi 1 is referencing the nation of Edom when "Esau" is used...? Versus "Jacob", the nation of Israel. I don't know though. Or maybe God hated Esau for a moment, but not for eternity? It seemed that Esau did alright by the end (wealth, wives, kids, land, etc), except a kind of tragic death I think. God often gives the wicked many blessings. Did he not give Satan all the nations of Earth? Think about how God will tell those who wind up in hell that "I never knew you" and to "depart from me". That doesn't sound loving. I personally believe that, among all humans, some are sons of God and some are "sons of the devil" (Jesus' own phrase). Yes, I believe that God hates these people because, honestly, you can't separate a person from their soul/spirit. If the soul/spirit is wicked, and if we know that God hates wickedness, I think it's safe to say that God hates sinners WHO DO NOT REPENT and WHO REJECT THE HOLY SPIRIT. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You got it! Well, at least my opinion of the right answer...but I hope to get some clarification on the matter. It is a good question: does God still love those who are in hell (as M30 points out)? And then sin and how that factors in. We're studying Romans 8 at church right now, and Paul tells us that nothing can separate us from God's love. But I guess that's either meant for believers, or means that nothing can stop God from loving us. Ok, now this is getting in to Romans 9, so that's too far ahead (we're in Romans 8). So I'm not going to be able to answer this, lol. But it is a good point. Does God hate anyone? Looking into it, it seems that some people think Malachi 1 is referencing the nation of Edom when "Esau" is used...? Versus "Jacob", the nation of Israel. I don't know though. Or maybe God hated Esau for a moment, but not for eternity? It seemed that Esau did alright by the end (wealth, wives, kids, land, etc), except a kind of tragic death I think. Sometimes, I think the opposite of love is apathy, not hatred. Hatred has an intensity and focus on the object that is similar to love (does that make sense?), but with apathy, the object isn't even on the radar. What I read in the article and what I've always believed is that the "hate" was not necessarily towards Esau, but towards the people that were to come through him- more on a national level. Also hating more of what they did (Edomites) and not so much the person. God continually tells us He hates the sin. This is where I'm hoping M30 can shed some light because I think he's onto something here- does God, or could God actually hate "the person". This is most interesting and if it is found that God has hated a person, this will shed a whole new light on some of the things I've been taught, also how I view current things. Very fascinating Pie! I love the insight in bold. What a blessing- lol we can't stop God from loving us! So many times it can "feel" like God is distant or has "forgotten" us, but the way you spoke these words- wow it totally squashes any doubt of Gods love. Awesome GF, thank you! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 God often gives the wicked many blessings. Did he not give Satan all the nations of Earth? Think about how God will tell those who wind up in hell that "I never knew you" and to "depart from me". That doesn't sound loving. I personally believe that, among all humans, some are sons of God and some are "sons of the devil" (Jesus' own phrase). Yes, I believe that God hates these people because, honestly, you can't separate a person from their soul/spirit. If the soul/spirit is wicked, and if we know that God hates wickedness, I think it's safe to say that God hates sinners WHO DO NOT REPENT and WHO REJECT THE HOLY SPIRIT. Ahhh, this makes sense and is true. This is what I needed M30, thank you! Would you say that God communicates that He hates Esau to let us know and to verify "before I formed you in the womb I knew you" (Jer 1:4?), meaning He knows the choices we will make. I can't think of the word, it's one of the "omni" words:laugh: Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 Ahhh, this makes sense and is true. This is what I needed M30, thank you! Would you say that God communicates that He hates Esau to let us know and to verify "before I formed you in the womb I knew you" (Jer 1:4?), meaning He knows the choices we will make. I can't think of the word, it's one of the "omni" words:laugh: Yes, other than soul/spirit, what are we but flesh? And you mean to tell me God loves the person's flesh? Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Just a thought here: What really blows my mind is HOW Esau being raised by Isaac did not serve the Lord. Being around that type of anointing, wow. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Yes, other than soul/spirit, what are we but flesh? And you mean to tell me God loves the person's flesh? BINGO! Wow, I'm tripping, thank you Jesus, yes and amen! This sheds light and new understanding. I don't have the words to describe how this will change how I view certain things. Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) Just a thought here: What really blows my mind is HOW Esau being raised by Isaac did not serve the Lord. Being around that type of anointing, wow. I know! Hard to believe. This is because: "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." (John 3:6) Ultimately ALL people receive the Spirit from God, not their parents. Edited March 10, 2014 by M30USA 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 What I read in the article and what I've always believed is that the "hate" was not necessarily towards Esau, but towards the people that were to come through him- more on a national level. Also hating more of what they did (Edomites) and not so much the person. God continually tells us He hates the sin. This is where I'm hoping M30 can shed some light because I think he's onto something here- does God, or could God actually hate "the person". This is most interesting and if it is found that God has hated a person, this will shed a whole new light on some of the things I've been taught, also how I view current things. Very fascinating Pie! I love the insight in bold. What a blessing- lol we can't stop God from loving us! So many times it can "feel" like God is distant or has "forgotten" us, but the way you spoke these words- wow it totally squashes any doubt of Gods love. Awesome GF, thank you! You guys are awesome! I had read through Genesis recently, and tried to get a grasp of the Esau/Jacob feud. But I'm reading this commentary that goes through all accounts of Esau, and it's really clarifying a lot! Esau (Forerunner Commentary) - Bible Tools They talk about how neither man was flawless or evil. Esau was pretty much just a regular guy. But he was so worldly. He never thought about the things of God. I bet he was pretty lukewarm. And Jacob had his flaws. The difference was that he based his life on going after God's plan, not his own. And those fundamental differences in character were causing problems, even in the womb! God often gives the wicked many blessings. Did he not give Satan all the nations of Earth? Oh, you are SO right! Very, very true!! My mistake. Esau was worldly, and I bet he was someone who just sailed through life sometimes, acquiring riches. Think about how God will tell those who wind up in hell that "I never knew you" and to "depart from me". That doesn't sound loving. I think it's sad. But I don't know if that necessarily means God doesn't have a love for them. I personally believe that, among all humans, some are sons of God and some are "sons of the devil" (Jesus' own phrase). Wait, are we talking about angels here? Yes, I believe that God hates these people because, honestly, you can't separate a person from their soul/spirit. If the soul/spirit is wicked, and if we know that God hates wickedness, I think it's safe to say that God hates sinners WHO DO NOT REPENT and WHO REJECT THE HOLY SPIRIT I hope God separates my soul/spirit from my person (flesh). My flesh is sinful, and it will hopefully be left behind one day, and my soul will be free and clean in God's presence. I think God hates sin (not necessarily sinners, repentant or not). But it's a good discussion, and I'm going to think more about it! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) Lol, back to the angel debate, Pie? Yes, "sons of God" are angels. They are ALSO a name for believers who are reborn of the Spirit. When God resurrects us, we shall be "sons of God". Remember Jesus said we shall be "like the angels in heaven"? But the term was always used of angels in the Old Testament (with the exception of Adam). It's not until NT when it becomes used for believers--and even then, we are not officially sons of God yet. We are yet to be "revealed" to the world, as Paul said. Edited March 11, 2014 by M30USA Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 The dual nature of God is incomprehensible by the human mind. His wrath is enormous and his love is equally enormous. On one hand, he is so disgusted with sin that he has his bow and arrow pulled back on us, ready to let go at any moment, and the ONLY thing stopping him is HIS OWN GOOD PLEASURE--it has zero to do with our worth. On the other hand, his mercy is enormous and he forgives EVERYTHING when one repents and is covered by Christ. Both operate together. The problem is that us humans tend to fall at varying degrees on this wrath/love spectrum but God is both. Any preacher who only preaches one side continually is false and avoid them. Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Lol, back to the angel debate, Pie? Haha...hopefully not! The dual nature of God is incomprehensible by the human mind. His wrath is enormous and his love is equally enormous. On one hand, he is so disgusted with sin that he has his bow and arrow pulled back on us, ready to let go at any moment, and the ONLY thing stopping him is HIS OWN GOOD PLEASURE--it has zero to do with our worth. On the other hand, his mercy is enormous and he forgives EVERYTHING when one repents and is covered by Christ. Both operate together. The problem is that us humans tend to fall at varying degrees on this wrath/love spectrum but God is both. Any preacher who only preaches one side continually is false and avoid them. True. Lots of things about God are incomprehensible. I guess it's easier to think that God's love is bigger than his wrath, and that makes more sense to me. Though God is all things, God=love is the resounding message I've gotten from my relationship with Him (thanks to Christ's sacrifice). But you're right. There is a very serious consequence to not accepting God into our hearts. So preaching only one side is not telling the whole story. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 You guys are awesome! I had read through Genesis recently, and tried to get a grasp of the Esau/Jacob feud. But I'm reading this commentary that goes through all accounts of Esau, and it's really clarifying a lot! Esau (Forerunner Commentary) - Bible Tools They talk about how neither man was flawless or evil. Esau was pretty much just a regular guy. But he was so worldly. He never thought about the things of God. I bet he was pretty lukewarm. And Jacob had his flaws. The difference was that he based his life on going after God's plan, not his own. And those fundamental differences in character were causing problems, even in the womb! Thank you for this article Pie! It brought the story of Jacob and Esau to life- could you imagine being pregnant with those two…not me:eek: This is an awesome learning experience:D 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 True or False: The Devil is omnipresent? Answer: False But how far can he reach on earth? I heard a comment today that the devil is not omnipresent, and can't be in more than one place at one time. But, what does "one place" mean? Like, can the devil be present throughout the earth, or is he really limited to being in one location? Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts