TKD w/ Glucose- Insulin Spike D/Workout

[jba10582]

The ketogenic diet (low to zero carb, high healthy fat with protein diet).

 

Does anybody specifically do a targeted ketogenic diet? After confirming I was in ketosis via ketostrips bought at walmart, I decided to switch to the TKD to switch back and forth between the metabolic states to better fit my lifestyle. Seems to shock the body a little bit at first, but also seems to be working... pre-workout I eat about 40 grams glucose also bought in diabetic section at walmart (I am non-diabetic). Does anyone know if this is ideal way of doing this pre-workout to spike insulin temporary before going back into ketosis? Is this (insulin spike) even needed when in ketosis? I would think if your not in ketosis it doesn't matter at all because it would happen naturally as your liver would have its own stores that would not be depleted after the induced ketosis state.

 

Is this ideal, and by ideal I don't mean (just eat a bagel). I was reading that insulin was needed in glucose transport, which to me means only during exercise, then switch back to ketosis, where hgh levels are inversely related to insulin. Is this the right idea? Also, energy drinks seem not to just have dextrose in them but sucralose, and fructose which are not readily as converted to glucose.

 

Sorry if this is confusing for anyone, the internet makes some of this seem unnecessarily confusing, and I believe there are people here that do the keto diet with some experience?

 

thanks

[regine_phalange]

Sounds confusing indeed! I started a thread some time ago about slow-carb diet, which is kind of low-carb too. It's good, but after a week I couldn't handle the sweet fruity smell of ketosis on my body (I m one of the "unfortunate" ones who have the gene that allows to smell it -- my brother couldnt smell anything).

 

After that I am following a mediterranean diet of 1500 calories and I am also very pleased. Lost 1 kg of fat this week, been eating very nice foods/have a lot of variety and choices. And I smell like roses again.

[jba10582]

my OP was meant for workouts dealing with Anaerobic activity...but obviously my gym visits unless I split it up into twice a day deals with both weightlifting and cardio.

 

I am thinking it would probably be beneficial to carb load with dextrose for anaerobic exercises (to fuel the muscles)...and if doing an aerobic exercise like running or getting on some cardio machine...it would probably be much more beneficial to stay in ketosis as the metabolic state is already in a highly beneficial state for burning fat, then switch temporarily.

 

I thinking about pre-loading with dextrose a smaller amount and then mixing dextrose in with a bottle of water to avoid any lightheadedness that would occur during weightlifting. Ideally I am guessing it would better to split the cardio then load...almost like an art form to stay out of catabolic state. I know that protein is also readily converted to glucose if no carbs are used so that what was I was trying to avoid.

 

thanks to anyone with experience.

[tman666]

What exactly is your goal here?

 

First of all, you can't just quickly alternate between a glucogenic and ketogenic state. It's not like turning a light bulb off and on. Glucose is your body's preferred source of energy, so ketosis doesn't occur until glucose stores are depleted.

 

Secondly, I would bet that there are far, far cheaper ways of spiking insulin just as effectively as pure dextrose (besides, is there some reason that you need to be spiking your insulin so quickly anyway?). Unless you have money to burn or simply enjoy being scammed, I don't know why you wouldn't just buy some gatorade or apple juice or something like that.

 

From your post, it sounds like you might have some sort of notion that you can consolidate your glucose usage to training, while remaining in ketosis the rest of the day. Sounds great right? Burn fat all day, but then be able to train hard with a sudden influx of stored glycogen? Ripped and big in no time!

 

Unfortunately, this isn't how your body works. Trying to manipulate your metabolic pathways is likely ineffective at best, possibly dangerous at worst.

 

My experience is that ketogenic diets are fine for short term usage (2-3 weeks), but that they aren't feasible as a long term strategy, for a host of reasons, not the least of which is your hormonal and metabolic health. Forgoing carbs for long periods of time can screw with your thyroid function among other things.

 

I would urge you to strongly reconsider your approach. Eat well with real food, train hard, sleep hard, limit alcohol, drink a lot of water. 99% of peoples' issues would be solved if they heeded that advice.

[thefooloftheyear]

What exactly is your goal here?

 

First of all, you can't just quickly alternate between a glucogenic and ketogenic state. It's not like turning a light bulb off and on. Glucose is your body's preferred source of energy, so ketosis doesn't occur until glucose stores are depleted.

 

Secondly, I would bet that there are far, far cheaper ways of spiking insulin just as effectively as pure dextrose (besides, is there some reason that you need to be spiking your insulin so quickly anyway?). Unless you have money to burn or simply enjoy being scammed, I don't know why you wouldn't just buy some gatorade or apple juice or something like that.

 

From your post, it sounds like you might have some sort of notion that you can consolidate your glucose usage to training, while remaining in ketosis the rest of the day. Sounds great right? Burn fat all day, but then be able to train hard with a sudden influx of stored glycogen? Ripped and big in no time!

 

Unfortunately, this isn't how your body works. Trying to manipulate your metabolic pathways is likely ineffective at best, possibly dangerous at worst.

 

My experience is that ketogenic diets are fine for short term usage (2-3 weeks), but that they aren't feasible as a long term strategy, for a host of reasons, not the least of which is your hormonal and metabolic health. Forgoing carbs for long periods of time can screw with your thyroid function among other things.

 

I would urge you to strongly reconsider your approach. Eat well with real food, train hard, sleep hard, limit alcohol, drink a lot of water. 99% of peoples' issues would be solved if they heeded that advice.[/QUOTE]

 

 

Absolutely....

 

Its amazing how well the caveman approach works...

 

TFY

[jba10582]

First of all, you can't just quickly alternate between a glucogenic and ketogenic state. It's not like turning a light bulb off and on. Glucose is your body's preferred source of energy, so ketosis doesn't occur until glucose stores are depleted.

 

Because the body will use the easiest type of energy source taking too high of carbs will likey knock you out of ketosis fairly quickly as a KB has less cal per g than a carb / g. I may test this to see how quickly...but it will not likely be at "light bulb" speed."

 

Secondly, I would bet that there are far, far cheaper ways of spiking insulin just as effectively as pure dextrose (besides, is there some reason that you need to be spiking your insulin so quickly anyway?). Unless you have money to burn or simply enjoy being scammed, I don't know why you wouldn't just buy some Gatorade or apple juice or something like that.

 

Dextrose is cheaper than buying Gatorade or fruit juice all the time and is most readily converted to glucose. Although I would try if they made a Gatorade-like drink sweetened with dextrose. That is what I would like to know. I am confused about the scammed part (scammed when buying a sweetener)?

 

The body would naturally release insulin during high sugar consumption or when blood sugars were high and during liver release during exercise for those not in ketosis. In ketosis the blood sugars remain very low because the glycogen is already depleted, and as result would not have the luxury of having the readily supply during high intensity exercises like sprinting or weightlifting, thus the carb load prior.

 

From your post, it sounds like you might have some sort of notion that you can consolidate your glucose usage to training, while remaining in ketosis the rest of the day.

 

Yes. Get knocked out of ketosis only during anaerobic activity, then since the body and brain is adapted to ketone bodies, head back into that metabolic state as quickly as possible, but not light bulb speed.

 

Unfortunately, this isn't how your body works. Trying to manipulate your metabolic pathways is likely ineffective at best, possibly dangerous at worst.

 

My experience is that ketogenic diets are fine for short term usage (2-3 weeks), but that they aren't feasible as a long term strategy, for a host of reasons, not the least of which is your hormonal and metabolic health. Forgoing carbs for long periods of time can screw with your thyroid function among other things.

 

Why is it dangerous?

 

Why only 2-3 weeks?

There are normal healthy non-diabetic people who stay on keto diets for years. I plan on being on for 6 - 8 weeks. I have been adapted for almost 2 weeks now and feel fine if not even more focused. I did notice a slight fruity smell in the urine from the ketone bodies, but nothing significant other than that.

 

I would urge you to strongly reconsider your approach. Eat well with real food, train hard, sleep hard, limit alcohol, drink a lot of water. 99% of peoples' issues would be solved if they heeded that advice.

 

Agree with the above, the question pertains to optimize the train hard part. During, anaerobic activity don't the muscles need the glucose during these quick burst of energy hence the dextrose, malodextrin, glucose or whatever you want to call it sweetner versus fruit juice, a bagel, Gatorade and to stay away from going into a catabolic state without the pre-load.

[tman666]

Well don't get me wrong here, I'm not disputing that taking carbs pre-workout wouldn't assist in boosting your performance. And hey, if you can get cheap dextrose, then why not (I assumed you were buying it in "supplement" form-which is most certainly a scam, haha).

 

As far as your strategy, my understanding is that studies have shown that T3 (thyroid hormone) starts dropping after you get below ~120 grams of carbohydrates/day. Chronically low T3 (a.k.a. hypothyroidism) isn't going to help your cause. In addition, other hormones could be effected: testosterone, leptin, etc. Then again, I ain't no science muf****a, so maybe I misunderstood some things.

 

I just think it's wise to think of the potential long term effects. I have no doubt that some people can do well with ketogenic diets in the long term. I also have no doubt that there are plenty of people who do poorly on them.

 

As far as being able to train hard: give it your plan a try and find out if it works well for you. I guess it depends on how hard you're training and what your expectations for your performance are.

 

If you're trying to get as big/strong as possible, this plan doesn't seem like your gig. But I can see it working for getting lean in a hurry.

[jba10582]

Well don't get me wrong here, I'm not disputing that taking carbs pre-workout wouldn't assist in boosting your performance. And hey, if you can get cheap dextrose, then why not (I assumed you were buying it in "supplement" form-which is most certainly a scam, haha).

 

As far as your strategy, my understanding is that studies have shown that T3 (thyroid hormone) starts dropping after you get below ~120 grams of carbohydrates/day. Chronically low T3 (a.k.a. hypothyroidism) isn't going to help your cause. In addition, other hormones could be effected: testosterone, leptin, etc. Then again, I ain't no science muf****a, so maybe I misunderstood some things.

 

I just think it's wise to think of the potential long term effects. I have no doubt that some people can do well with ketogenic diets in the long term. I also have no doubt that there are plenty of people who do poorly on them.

 

As far as being able to train hard: give it your plan a try and find out if it works well for you. I guess it depends on how hard you're training and what your expectations for your performance are.

 

If you're trying to get as big/strong as possible, this plan doesn't seem like your gig. But I can see it working for getting lean in a hurry.

 

I am cutting for the next 6 - 8 weeks.

 

I am not familiar where else you buy dextrose other than as a supplement or as a product that is already sweetened with it as many products are. It seems like it is the variable that is easiest to "manipulate" and the most efficient way I understand currently as it as it appears the easiest to convert to glucose. They sell them as drinks, chews and supplements in the diabetic section of storms like cvs, walmart, walgreens ect.

 

I would think that if you can artfully regulate the glucose utilized by the body, once you take in the new energy source, the body can now utilize an easy energy source and temporarily take advantage go back into glucose utilization out of ketosis, then while drinking in the glucose water and utilizing the smaller amount of pre-load carbs to keep the anaerobic intensity without getting lightheaded but just enough to reach the end, your body would quickly burn the rest of the left glucose reverting back to the ketosis state which you are already adapted too.

 

My conflict was in understanding and researching this was why the body can only burn KB during aerobic exercises versus anaerobic and if this were truly the case, optimizing the window in which it was minimally needed for the (insulin activity spike and needed glucose for the muscles). Of course to add to the confusion, there are conflicting reports on what to do post workout with carbs to get the benefit of the increased protein synthesis post workout with higher insulin then reverting back to a lower blood sugar where hgh levels are optimum and inversely related. In protein shakes like whey, I believe it gets about the best it can be because some of those have carbs but not overloading to get a massive sugar spike.

 

also I'll look into the T3 and testosterone relations that would futher complicate this.

[tman666]

As to why your body can't use KB for anaerobic work, would it have to do with the different types of muscle fibers employed? For example, if you're sprinting or lifting heavy weights, you're employing more Type II (fast twitch) fibers, which are glycolytic. For sustained, lower intensity training, more Type I fibers are used, which utilize oxidative pathways.

 

Like I said, I'm no scientist, so it's highly possible that I misunderstood something here.

 

As far as the hgh production issue: this is one of the things toted by intermittent fasters as a benefit, since hgh production is highest in the body after waking in the morning. However, as you mentioned, once an insulin spike occurs (due to an influx of sugars needing to be transported), hgh production diminishes. Hence the prolonged fast.

 

Here's the thing though: hgh production is good for muscle growth, yes? But at what point does the positive effects of the additional free-hgh become canceled out or overtaken by the negative effects of having too few calories, or not enough nitrogen turnover, stress from feeling hungry all of the time, insomnia, or ?, etc.

 

And this is where it's tough to nail down. For just about every study showing the positive effects of something, one needs to take into consideration the differences between a controlled study and the applicability to a real, breathing human person.

 

This is where things like application, individual behaviors, and even individual physiological differences come into play.

 

A person can spend countless hours splitting hairs on this stuff, trying to whittle information down to one, singular "correct" answer. I've tried this too, not only with diet, but training as well.

 

For me, the take away point is that a person has to find their own answers. Many look to science as if they're trying to unlock the DaVinci Code.

 

I would say whatever you do, keep a journal. Keep careful track of your lifts and performance across all rep ranges, not just your heaviest lifts. Keep track of your sleep, mood, sex drive, motivation level, etc. These indicators will tell you more about YOUR results than any study or studies.

[jba10582]

Part of my interest had to do with fasting when researching the actual benefits of this say for illness/spiritual reasons. I won't get into that here because I am not doing fasting, nor did I, even to help induce the keto state.

 

My initial thinking for the keto diet was that Testosterone production would naturally be increased with a high fat diet especially healthy fats, olive oil, coconut oil, omegas, nuts, fish, meats, ect...and the added benefit of the higher (healthy) fat diet would be naturally appetite suppressant as well especially when at a modest-low deficit, say 500 cals/day under base. Eating the healthy fats would benefit good cholesterol... although may also likely be unaffected much since in a slight calorie deficit.

 

Additionally, since insulin is inversely related to hgh, hgh levels would naturally be increased, assuming adequate sleep giving a second advantage. Finally are some ideas floating around about keto having a metabolic advantage in that they KB have less cal then a gram of fat also.

 

The body also seems to be able to adapt fairly quickly to whatever you do, and part of the reason I do not want to stay on the keto indefinitely.

[jba10582]

Was reading more about T3

 

Some say it decreases, some say unaffected, some say its plain absurd...

 

In any case, I would think that a temporary decrease in T3 would be beneficial during the keto, as it can be very catabolic in that it does not discriminate in what it decides to metabolize, whether fat, muscle or carbs...thus the protein sparing effect of the diet from anecdotal evidence may actually bare some truth in this as the body seems to adapts to what you do.

[tman666]

Let us know how it goes!

[jba10582]

I talked with an endocrinologist today (he works with HRT) on the phone (free consultation) who was not familiar with the keto diet, but was familiar with low carb diets. He did not seem like it was a big deal...I would swear though, he was trying to get me interested in HRT...of course the man has a business to run.

 

He mentioned that T levels typically decrease with age. I told him I might consider taking independent blood test later and inquired about the cost of blood test for T and T3. For now he basically recommended I take common sense approaches.

 

He was telling me how a lot of guys who work in electrical fields, in the military and as airline pilots, or guys having high stress jobs seems to have cases with low T which seemed more than normal. Higher T levels are generally associated with more overall well-being, and the general rage associated with higher T levels is often a misnomer. As he said that, I had envisioned the EPA toxin list having estrogen on there often found in city's water supples. I found his personal anecdotal evidence interesting...for anyone here that may work in those particular fields.