road Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Yes we are both seeing the counselor this week both separately and then together next Friday. There are no diseases ...that would be awful. Where you both tested for STD's? Link to post Share on other sites
Author DasPope Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 [/b] Amen, brother. Like you said, trust but verify. You said you weren't interested in hiring a PI, so I for one am curious what steps you're taking to ensure that you are aware. No it was the last thing I wanted to do but I ended up hiring one, it was the only way I could go away regularly and be sure. The type of cheating she did would be pretty much uncatchable if she thought I was suspicious. So really it was my only option. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author DasPope Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 Have you been open and clear with her on those things? Crystal clear .... As the therapist suggested we have developed a set of mutually understood and non negotiable rules for going forward. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author DasPope Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 As a brief follow up things have been progressing well between us. I've continued traveling and there have been no further incidences of inappropriate activity detected while I've been away (or at home) despite several opportunities she has remained faithful. The Therapy has been helpful but it has also raised some fairly deep issues that will require time to work through. The biggest issue I am having is that I cannot quite reconcile the sheer casual random nature of my WS's behavior with the rest of her personality which is certainly spontaneous but always thoughtful. I can't help feel I just don't know her well enough and it's been nagging at me. The Therapist suggests its a normal feeling of mistrust but I think its deeper then that. Together we have been fine, good even although she is still skirting around on eggshells whenever the issue get raised and she still can offer no explanation for her behavior that doesn't fit neatly into the hand in the cookie jar analogy. One thing I'll say is it isn't easy. Intellectually I can rationalize and engage with many issues around this but emotionally my feelings are often the opposite. We remain a work in progress. Link to post Share on other sites
2sunny Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Sounds like the usual path when infidelity has entered the scene. I'd encourage you to continue bringing up to her all your feelings about what she's been capable of doing. If she intends to repair the damage she's caused - she should be willing to discuss anything if she intends to earn your trust. I don't believe she doesn't know why she did it since she was consistent with her random hook ups - she knew - and she knows, believe me! Asking exactly what she was thinking and feeling every time she searched out her new conquest behind your back. She knew she would hurt you when you found out, yet she did it anyway. I hope the therapist searches her childhood. I'd be willing to bet money her family of origin has a lot to do with her attitude about what she's done and how she went about it - including her willingness to risk losing you. Possibly a male hurt her and she needs an outlet to hurt men or disrespect them or to have some sort of control over them based in a childhood experience of which she had no control...? Possible reasons? It could be that you find these IF she gets honest: It's exciting It's sneaky (part of the thrill) It's unpredictable It's void of emotion (or she would have pick a stable partner) It's the ability to use men and toss them aside It's an opportunity to do things she might not do with you It may be with men and women (something she may not wish to tell you) It's felling unattached and using another for one main goal It's no expectations It's a player for sure - which she may have never intended you to know It's demeaning (she may not ever want to admit it) - what if you two see one of her conquests at the market or while getting the car washed? It involves fear - FOR SURE She may be angry at men (but not want to tell you) fear again She may secretly like hurting men (she's never going to tell you) She may have been harmed by a man in her childhood This may be a way of payback to men in general - hurting them because a man hurt her There's a million reasons why. She knows. She doesn't want you to find out. I think that's crappy. If she's not willing to get honest with you - there's no foundation for the relationship. Another thing I'd need to know is why she thought it was ok to hurt you? Disrespect and disregard you? She was calculating - you may think not - but when someone has a pattern - it IS calculated. Her pattern may be hard to break. She's on good behavior because she got caught - but what about when she gets bored in 5 or 10 years - how will she allow you to understand she is vulnerable to cheating again? What's HER plan to stay faithful? If she doesn't develop a solid prevention plan - then what's the point? You don't know the real her. The one you know is passive aggressive and pretends to be different than the gal she REALLY is when you're not looking. You can't trail her every move forever. She either starts being honest or you resolve to live with a marriage based on lies and pretending it's something it's not/never been. She's not the woman you THOUGHT she WAS. But it's time she reveals who she really is now. That way you can make a decision based on what is real. Is your wife capable of supporting herself and the lifestyle she enjoys based on her own money earned? Edited March 7, 2014 by 2sunny 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Bryanp Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I am confused. What has been the consequences to her actions that put the both of you at great risk for STD's and the total betrayal of your marriage? It sounds to me that she has gotten off without any type of consequences. I have a hunch that she knew that you were a good guy and that even if she was caught doing these terrible acts to you; she knew that in the long run you would forgive her anyway. In short, she knew down deep that she really had nothing to lose so why not have her cake and eat it too? Am I wrong? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author DasPope Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 It's a player for sure - which she may have never intended you to know It involves fear - FOR SURE I'm not sure I really understand what you mean with these two ... Is your wife capable of supporting herself and the lifestyle she enjoys based on her own money earned? She has a good career in the television production industry earning a low 6 figure salary so certainly she's not relying on me to feed her or her daily needs (her shoe addiction is a different story). I however am a senior partner in a entertainment industry law firm so while she couldn't live our current lifestyle she certainly would be more then comfortable. Link to post Share on other sites
beach Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 A player - meaning playing the field without considering emotions tied to actions or other people's feelings being hurt. Fear. Well - she certainly wasn't capable of telling you what was real about her... You may not like it - you might judge the "real her" - fear motivates people to be sneaky, cover up their truth - and pretend (another form of lying) to be a person they are not. Since she won't let her guard down enough to find or admit to how she really feels about what she did, why she did it, what her thoughts were when she headed over to have random sex - she's still not being honest with you. What is the counselor doing with her to delve into getting some truth from her? Link to post Share on other sites
VeronicaRoss Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 She is not under any other circumstances a selfish, uncaring, immature or manipulative person and this pattern of behavior is most out of character. First of all, I appreciate you're level-headedness about this and that you're moving to protect yourself. Please keep taking protective action. The internet frees people to say things in a more direct or aggressive way than they ever would in real life. Don't let the tone get in the way of the concern and wisdom behind what many people are trying to offer. I have no idea if your wife is a sex addict, but there are parallels. I dated a sex addict decades ago. I broke up with him and went to support groups to deal with the confusion and pain. A consistent theme in the support groups: "Oh, I know that sounds bad, but you don't understand. They're really a great person. A pillar of the community even. Everyone loves and respects them." It's called 'splitting' -- creating a good person and a bad person out of them instead of accepting the bad is representative of who they are, and an integrated part of their character and therefore what you can consistently expect from them. Creating a public persona that deflects attention, in fact makes their secretive behavior almost impossible to believe is typical. The news is full of these kinds of people. They work hard to make themselves so valuable, such a pillar of good things to increase the reluctance to confront and leave. They choose people that have insecurities that make loyalty at discovery more likely. You yourself brought up the age difference, and your age difference indeed makes you more vulnerable to someone like her. Luckily, you're appearing to be more loyal to your own health and the sanity of your family than her, congratulations. You'll know you're moving along when you are able to accept regardless of the qualities you love, she is also selfish, uncaring, immature and manipulative. So is the circle of friends that support her behavior. Grossly so. What you haven't yet begun to consider is this is the tip of the iceberg about what she is doing and what you know, it may not just be sexual but financial too. Her actions define her character, and this is not an aberation, you've discovered her more fully. It takes a lot of time to truly know someone. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
VeronicaRoss Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Probably because we have spent so much time together. She's not walking on eggshells as much and I'm not slipping in attorney mode with her. I daresay it's been quite a pleasant week actually. Strange but true ... This is classic as well. It's called the honeymoon phase when she's remorseful and will say anything to keep you on the hook and you desperately need to believe her and feel in control again. It doesn't indicate anything has changed in your relationship dynamics. I just read more of the thread and saw you're in marriage counseling. I highly suggest individual counseling as well to take care of yourself and probe what is going on with you and how are you caring for yourself. And read some books on serial cheating, you're now following a well-worn pattern. Good luck. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
VeronicaRoss Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 The biggest issue I am having is that I cannot quite reconcile the sheer casual random nature of my WS's behavior with the rest of her personality which is certainly spontaneous but always thoughtful. I can't help feel I just don't know her well enough and it's been nagging at me. The Therapist suggests its a normal feeling of mistrust but I think its deeper then that. Together we have been fine, good even although she is still skirting around on eggshells whenever the issue get raised and she still can offer no explanation for her behavior that doesn't fit neatly into the hand in the cookie jar analogy.. This. Her sleeping around wasn't an aberration. And you can indeed be deeply thoughtful, make even extravagantly large gestures of empathy and compassion and still justify doing extremely harmful things to others. The sex addict I was involved worked hard to portray himself as a salt of the earth, defender of underdogs. Brilliant guy too. It would trigger a lot of people for me to go into the details of what I found out about him, but you need to pay attention to your gut and kudos for not listening to the MC on this one. What you're describing now in her reaction to dealing with deeper issues tells me you would benefit from reading about sex addiction. Patrick Carnes MD was the one who defined the issue. You can read his book. It's important to look at the characteristics beneath the infidelity, rather than focus on their compulsive behavior to truly understand what you're dealing with. He'll describe it. It's the secretiveness, the splitting and compartmentalizing and rationalizing that really is the problem. Even if she isn't a sex addict per se, it might help you understand what could be driving her, even coming from a perfect seeming family. A lot of who we are was determined before we were even born. Link to post Share on other sites
aliveagain Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 First of all, I appreciate you're level-headedness about this and that you're moving to protect yourself. Please keep taking protective action. The internet frees people to say things in a more direct or aggressive way than they ever would in real life. Don't let the tone get in the way of the concern and wisdom behind what many people are trying to offer. I have no idea if your wife is a sex addict, but there are parallels. I dated a sex addict decades ago. I broke up with him and went to support groups to deal with the confusion and pain. A consistent theme in the support groups: "Oh, I know that sounds bad, but you don't understand. They're really a great person. A pillar of the community even. Everyone loves and respects them." It's called 'splitting' -- creating a good person and a bad person out of them instead of accepting the bad is representative of who they are, and an integrated part of their character and therefore what you can consistently expect from them. Creating a public persona that deflects attention, in fact makes their secretive behavior almost impossible to believe is typical. The news is full of these kinds of people. They work hard to make themselves so valuable, such a pillar of good things to increase the reluctance to confront and leave. They choose people that have insecurities that make loyalty at discovery more likely. You yourself brought up the age difference, and your age difference indeed makes you more vulnerable to someone like her. Luckily, you're appearing to be more loyal to your own health and the sanity of your family than her, congratulations. You'll know you're moving along when you are able to accept regardless of the qualities you love, she is also selfish, uncaring, immature and manipulative. So is the circle of friends that support her behavior. Grossly so. What you haven't yet begun to consider is this is the tip of the iceberg about what she is doing and what you know, it may not just be sexual but financial too. Her actions define her character, and this is not an aberation, you've discovered her more fully. It takes a lot of time to truly know someone. You have beautifully put what I have been trying to warn him of, I too am a survivor of this exact same type of woman. One affair child, 3 suicide attempts later(by her in an attempt to keep me in the relationship) and my address and contact information is permanently kept from any public posting. The age difference, her friends that were facilitators, it all match's his scenario but as you say he's just scratching the surface and hasn't given the relationship time to get to where mine did yet. Simply put, my ex wanted the lifestyle I could give her but her children would be with other men and I was never find out about her other life, one of her friends had a conscience after all. I too was delusional and kept defending her actions, that is until I started to see the real ugliness that was always there but masked. Link to post Share on other sites
Author DasPope Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 What is the counselor doing with her to delve into getting some truth from her? Several people ask this type of question and its impossible to answer as surely you are aware that her individual counselling sessions remain confidential. The counselor certainly isn't discussing what's being said with me. I only know what is discussed in the joint sessions. Link to post Share on other sites
Author DasPope Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 Her actions define her character, and this is not an aberation, you've discovered her more fully. It takes a lot of time to truly know someone. Thanks for taking the time to respond in such a detailed fashion. Look I'll be frank and state that a lot of your observations and conclusions about her motives and personality are way off base but the last bit which I quoted rings true. The problem I am having when trying to sort this out in my mind is that the kind of promiscuous behaviour that has occurred is totally at odds with everything that I have previously understood about her and our relationship. Up until it was revealed I would have described her as loving, considerate, thoughtful, and devoted to our relationship and apart from this I'd still say that it rings true. Her inability to provide a more complex reasoning for her behaviour is troubling.However it does ring true in many areas and even in therapy it has held up to scrutiny. Sometimes things can really be that simple and we seek to complicate them in order to understand and accept them. But the basic reasoning behind her actions is also a sign of other personality traits working in a destructive manner. My wife is well aware that I am not a stupid person and while it may have been pure blind luck ( or lack of it ) that permitted me to discover the situation she knows that it's unlikely to repeat itself. So if her reasoning is correct I actually feel that could be a bigger issue then if it was something more deep seated if that makes sense. It speaks to a casualness and carelessness that is foreign to me and how I see her. We are currently getting along very well all things considered and I'm very mindful of trying to quarantine this issue and prevent it polluting our whole relationship. There is so much, so good about us that I am remaining positive but the troubling doubts remain with me and until I can resolve them within myself ( and it's up to me to do that she cannot do it for me ) things will remain unsettled. Link to post Share on other sites
2sunny Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 So if her reasoning is correct I actually feel that could be a bigger issue then if it was something more deep seated if that makes sense. It speaks to a casualness and carelessness that is foreign to me and how I see her. And what is her "reasoning? Link to post Share on other sites
Radu Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 We are currently getting along very well all things considered and I'm very mindful of trying to quarantine this issue and prevent it polluting our whole relationship. There is so much, so good about us that I am remaining positive but the troubling doubts remain with me and until I can resolve them within myself ( and it's up to me to do that she cannot do it for me ) things will remain unsettled. Welcome to splitting. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
2sunny Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 There's no way to "force her" to become faithful. There's no way to know for "sure" that she's not doing it again. It's who she really is. You either accept that about her - or you leave her. Link to post Share on other sites
Friskyone4u Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 OP is a very intelligent educated and thoughtful person with the financial resources to have someone else, namely PI, to constantly cover his back. Unfortunately for him, his WW has the resources to exist without him so my opinion is she will mess up again. She got caught but her serial cheating is a pattern only she can break and she likes to party with other men. OP has made a calculated decision to stay in this relationship so I think it is not useful to keep giving him advice on what to do . I hope not big my guess is sometime in the future OP will be back when the PI gets him the evidence. Hope I am wrong Link to post Share on other sites
Author DasPope Posted March 12, 2014 Author Share Posted March 12, 2014 There's no way to "force her" to become faithful. There's no way to know for "sure" that she's not doing it again. It's who she really is. You either accept that about her - or you leave her. I don't wish to force her to do anything whatsoever but if she gives me undertakings that I accept then I have a right to have an expectation that they will be adhered to. I think its completely fair that I make her aware of the consequences and wider implications of any further cheating. I don't think that is forcing her, but rather just pointing out what position I hold. Link to post Share on other sites
Author DasPope Posted March 12, 2014 Author Share Posted March 12, 2014 Hope I am wrong That makes two of us. Link to post Share on other sites
2sunny Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I don't wish to force her to do anything whatsoever but if she gives me undertakings that I accept then I have a right to have an expectation that they will be adhered to. I think its completely fair that I make her aware of the consequences and wider implications of any further cheating. I don't think that is forcing her, but rather just pointing out what position I hold. So what consequences have you specifically told her will happen if there is any more cheating? Link to post Share on other sites
BeholdtheMan Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Your wife will start taking you seriously when you stop being an accommodating doormat Pursue reconciliation by all means but you have to enforce negative consequences in response to your wife's treacherous behaviour. No consequences = no improvement on her part 1 Link to post Share on other sites
2sunny Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 So much cheating happens in a workplace. How can you know for sure she won't or isn't finding her resources there - now that she knows that you may be tracking her after work hours...it could be happening while she says she's busy working...? Link to post Share on other sites
Author DasPope Posted March 15, 2014 Author Share Posted March 15, 2014 So what consequences have you specifically told her will happen if there is any more cheating? She is aware that would trigger a dissolution ... Link to post Share on other sites
Author DasPope Posted March 15, 2014 Author Share Posted March 15, 2014 So much cheating happens in a workplace. How can you know for sure she won't or isn't finding her resources there - now that she knows that you may be tracking her after work hours...it could be happening while she says she's busy working...? Extremely doubtful ... I have so many friends and contacts at her work place. It's difficult to see her being that stupid. Link to post Share on other sites
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