How to broach subject with wife?

[DasPope]

Just because she had many one night stands doesn't mean she doesn't love you. It's just like your marriage and love is one thing, her extra adventures are different thing.

I'm sure this was true for her I don't think she really considered carefully her behaviors but rather this was a case of her impulsively falling back into familiar patterns from her single days.

 

They can coexist if you allow it.

I can't see how that would be possible now I am aware of the situation

 

Do you want her to stop having one night stands?

Of course I do. I certainly did not sign up for any kind of open marriage.

 

Or are you willing to share her with other men knowing she will always come home to you?

No I don't think that would be something I could accept as a condition of the marriage. The very idea of that fills me with revulsion and I find it difficult to believe that could ever work.

 

I think we have established some concrete ground rules for going forward that hopefully will improve things. The biggest issue I am going to have is to trust her however I do take some comfort in the indisputable fact that despite a lot of people that here seem to be taking great pleasure in calling her a liar she has never ever told me anything that I have not been able to verify as the whole complete and utter truth. As soon as the issue came up she disclosed everything to me in a honest and forthright fashion with hiding or excuses. This alone gave me encouragement to push forward.

Edited February 18, 2014 by DasPope

[DasPope]

I know of a situation similar to yours. His wife was cheating on him for years, he found out, confronted her, and she confessed everything to him. She wasn't even emotional about it, just gave all the details and apologized.

 

They decided to reconcile. And a year later, he found out she was just hiding the cheating better.

 

That is why I've decided to trust ... but verify.

[Iguanna]

That is why I've decided to trust ... but verify.

 

Like a good parent would do.

 

So I guess you like to be her dad, don't you?

[Mickey_Fitzpatrick]

That is why I've decided to trust ... but verify.

 

An old Russian proverb, popularized in the US by President Reagan back in the 80s. I've always thought it was a clever play on words meaning you really don't trust too much at all, otherwise why would you have to verify?

[2sunny]

Now that he knows what she does - and does consistently - the OP WANTS to trust his wife.

 

But what is her plan to EARN his trust back? What's the plan for when he travels next?

[tired girl]

Like a good parent would do.

 

So I guess you like to be her dad, don't you?

 

 

Is this kind of statement designed to helpful to the OP? Because I don't think it really is.

 

Trust is a huge factor after an A. You aren't going to trust her for awhile, a long while, and you shouldn't. She has broken that trust and she needs to earn that back. So if you need to check up on her, check her phone, and check other things to feel comfortable to stay in the relationship, so be it.

 

I know for me, I didn't do those things. I knew if my H wanted to communicate with someone he would find a way. Me checking up on him wouldn't stop him. I always knew in the past when he was engaged in an EA anyway. He had certain tells, so I had more faith in my ability to read him that in anything else. For some people, checking up and being able to verify that their spouse is doing what they say they are doing is the layers of trust being built. For me, it is being able to ask my H questions and him always answering them with no defensiveness and being ok with talking to me. That is the biggest change. Go with what makes you comfortable, regardless of what others say on this board.

[Iguanna]

But what is her plan to EARN his trust back?

 

Being young and beautiful should be enough!

[Iguanna]

Is this kind of statement designed to helpful to the OP? Because I don't think it really is.

 

 

If you read the whole thread you will see that the OP replies only to people who agree with him, so I'm sure he doesn't even read my posts.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Maybe it's not you he doesn't want to reply to, but your posts. He would have to read them to know they are not worth responding to, if that were the case.

 

He reads the posts. That's how he knows that the posters that disparage his serially cheating wife is

 

hostile

vitriolic

bitter

crazed

angry

bitter

twisted

full of poisonous rhetoric

[Iguanna]

He reads the posts. That's how he knows that the posters that disparage his serially cheating wife is

 

hostile

vitriolic

bitter

crazed

angry

bitter

twisted

full of poisonous rhetoric

 

Thank you. I was starting to believe I'm too crazy or too sensitive (or both ).

 

@seaviews, you have to understand that I am not against reconciliation in general, I'm not even suggesting to this particular OP to NOT try to reconcile with his wife (haven't even gone there). What I'm saying is that I think there is an issue he refuses to face, the issue of the age difference. If he will forgive his wife or not has not yet started to get into my mind to suggest my opinion.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Thank you. I was starting to believe I'm too crazy or too sensitive (or both ).

 

@seaviews, you have to understand that I am not against reconciliation in general, I'm not even suggesting to this particular OP to NOT try to reconcile with his wife (haven't even gone there). What I'm saying is that I think there is an issue he refuses to face, the issue of the age difference. If he will forgive his wife or not has not yet started to get into my mind to suggest my opinion.

 

I've re-read this thread multiple times to find the animosity that is alluded to. I can't find it. My opinion is that he is overly defensive because he put his wife on a pedestal. I did the same thing. I thought husbands were suppose to put their wife on a pedestal.

 

This creates a problem when that pedestal comes crashing down. His pedestal is crumbling, and he is fighting it. It is expected that the BS will minimize the impact: her ONS were "impulsive"; she has been telling him the "whole and complete utter truth"; "bump in the road".

 

I don't think the age difference is the main issue. He is doing what I did this soon after d-day: minimize my wife's affair and the reality of the situation. Her serial cheating is not a one-off, but apart of her character makeup. The fact he he felt better that "she never went back for seconds" is a good indication that his head is not in the right place. The OP seems to push back on this fact: multiple affairs with multiple partners over an extended period of time.

 

DasPope, it is my hope that will acknowledge that there is the possibility that what others here as saying could be accurate and helpful. I have not mentioned anything about divorce or reconciliation. That is because it is too soon!

 

To many of us, you are clearly in the Denial stage of this trauma. This does not mean that you deny that your wife cheated on you. It means that you are in denial of seeing the entire scenario clearly. You are clinging onto the idealized version of your wife. Same goes for your marriage. How you saw your marriage is not how your wife viewed it. Her actions explicitly proves that fact. It appears that you refuse to open yourself to the possibility that your wife is not the women on the pedestal. She's the women who is randomly pleasuring other men (multiple!) while your off earning a living for the family. Not just a one-time "mistake", but a pattern that dates back to your engagement. This denial will pass in the next few months. At that time you will see things in a much different light.

 

I applaud your graciousness to forgive your wife, but I feel that it is too soon to offer her that forgiveness. There is a LOT of work to be completed before you are in a position to forgive her in a healthy manner.

[notbroken]

I'm sorry, but going out and flirting and cheating is a way of life for your wife. An ingrained way of life. Not some occassional 'slip up' that can be easily fixed. She didn't spill milk. She went out, flirted with multiple men, and went home with some of them. She would have kept doing that. Indefinitely. It is her lifestyle.

 

Honestly, she will likely do the same with her next husband or anyone she is with.

 

I know that is tough but it is the truth.

 

YOU can't change enough to fix her. It would have to come from within. Very difficult to change your core being. Make no mistake that is who she is (or at least that is who she has been).

 

There are lots of people that think it is ok to 'push the boundaries' when they go out by flirting, etc. They like the chase and get validation through others finding them attractive and a thrill not unlike a drug addiction. If they do it enough they end up crossing the line into one night stands.

 

You were unfortunate to marry one of those people and face a seriously uphill battle.

 

Hard truth, but truth nonetheless.

[pteromom]

OP, I have to say I am very impressed with the way you are handling this situation.

 

You realize your wife is broken and instead of throwing her away, you are trying to see if you can fix it. A great example of what marriage is supposed to be.

 

You are also not making the mistake of blaming yourself for her issues. I don't see you on here doing the whole bitter-man thing, where it's some kind of competition between you and these other men, or a failing on your part to meet her needs.

 

She has problems. And good for you for being willing to help her work through those problems. I hope she is as committed as you are to fixing things.

 

As far as the hostile responses, you have to realize that many posters here have been betrayed themselves, and they have very strong feelings about cheaters. Add to that the LoveShack Woman Haters Club, and yeah, a post like yours is going to get a lot of attention.

 

Keep going to counseling and see what happens. Hopefully she is dedicated to finding out why she kept doing this, and how to never do it again. Good luck to you!

[Mickey_Fitzpatrick]

While it might be true that the discovery of an A in a marriage wipes out "the trust" forever, Im in the camp that thinks a little more about this "trust" in the first place. I experienced it first hand 10 months ago.

 

I held SUCH BLIND TRUST that my S would NEVER EVER EVER EVER NOT EVER IN A MILLION YEARS EVER have an affair, that EVEN when she told me "Im seeing someone else" I did not believe what I heard. My world crashed. But what also CRASHED was my naive, yes naive BLIND trust.

 

When an affair has been exposed to us, we think we have discovered the truth about someone. But in fact all we've done is discover ONE TRUTH about them. We have discovered they can do this bad thing to us. Now we know, and of course it's devastating.

 

When we have an accident, and break something, or lift something that we thought we could lift, without difficulty (we trust we can lift those cardboard boxes) and suddenly we end up on a hospital bed for a hernia operation, we expect to heal. And we do, in fact heal. Good to go. But does that mean I cannot lift ANY OTHER object ever again? No. I have to compensate my trust for what I know to be true. That people fail. That our bodies fail us. That none of us are perfect. So I trust myself to lift my daughter, just a certain way, by a certain amount, because I do want to hold her like a father, but I remember that hernia operation, so remember to be cautious, and not take the full brunt of her 35 kilo body in a brutal second. I test my limits.

 

Like anyone else, I miss a lot the blind trust I had for my wife. But I also recognize it made me lazy, it allowed me to take her for granted... cause she would never step out on me my boundaries were far to wide and my radar was set to sleep mode.

 

Asleep no more, I am alert, but willing to trust. Because if I didn't trust, or think I could regain sufficient trust to be happy, I wouldn't be doing this. I'm not a masochist.

 

And let's face it, TRUST requires an element of RISK.

 

If you trust someone there is no need to verify. The need to verify exists to the extent that you LACK trust or mistrust. Original poster said trust but verify. My point was that verify demonstrates mistrust. Your point seems to be that no one should be trusted.

[2sunny]

Since your W shows evidence that she has the ability to have sex without attachment and feelings = there very well may be extreme trauma in her childhood.

 

Is she willing to sift through her family of origin and see if she can address trauma if it comes to the forefront?

 

What is she willing to DO to save the marriage?

 

What is HER plan of action to repair the damage she has caused?

[DasPope]

Since your W shows evidence that she has the ability to have sex without attachment and feelings = there very well may be extreme trauma in her childhood.

Is she willing to sift through her family of origin and see if she can address trauma if it comes to the forefront?

 

Nothing to see there trauma wise. Her family are a very stable loving family.A relaxed unstressed enviroment, her siblings are all well adjusted nice people. Both her parents are your standard liberal academics (both are professors) really nice people who I get along very well with and VERY Californian.

 

What is she willing to DO to save the marriage?

 

What is HER plan of action to repair the damage she has caused?

 

These are the very things we are going to be working on in therapy.

[tired girl]

there very well may be extreme trauma in her childhood

.

 

Maybe. Or she doesn't know how to relate sex to intimacy. I think a great deal of this generation has no idea how to do that.

[DasPope]

.

 

Maybe. Or she doesn't know how to relate sex to intimacy. I think a great deal of this generation has no idea how to do that.

 

 

I don't think that's true in our relationship but almost certainly was in her ONS's and I get exactly what you mean about the generational differentiation in attitudes and I'd agree it's played a part (is it even generational or is it just that women are more confident in treating hook ups like men have for many decades?). I think it was all best summed up with the hand in the cookie jar analogy. I don't think it went any further in her thinking then "meet guy, screw guy, ...oops I'm married now shouldn't have done that". It's only now when the repercussions have come home to roost that she's had a opportunity to realise the wider ramifications of even allowing herself to be put remotely near that situation in the first place. And of course that's been quite a devastating revelation for her to face up to about herself.

Edited February 19, 2014 by DasPope

[beach]

Nothing to see there trauma wise. Her family are a very stable loving family.A relaxed unstressed enviroment, her siblings are all well adjusted nice people. Both her parents are your standard liberal academics (both are professors) really nice people who I get along very well with and VERY Californian.

 

 

 

These are the very things we are going to be working on in therapy.

 

Since it is her actions that has broken the M and it's also her actions that disrespected and disregarded you, as her husband...it really is hers to do.

 

She may very well have a disconnect between sex and intimacy... And has she addressed that with her counselor and what she can do going forward to change that for herself?

 

How often does she plan to see her counselor?

 

Are you still traveling as often? What is she learning about herself - so that she begins to trust herself - so she won't go looking for more men while you're away?

[2sunny]

Therapy is great, although a lot of it focusses on the deceit, the problem, the pain, the admissions etc.

 

As a husband and wife you both too can sit down and say, look. I want to be happy, and I know you want to be happy too. What can the two of us do, that we have NOT been doing, anything small or large, a fishing trip, go to the movies, walk hand in hand through a park, renovate a bedroom, what can we do together to make us both feel happy and begin to see each other's positives while we do it? It can such a small thing as make some brownies together and share with the kids, as go on a second honeymoon without them.

 

Just focus on doing one thing. If you like it, you feel something you haven't felt in a while, then do it again. Baby steps. Just like falling in love all over again. And that is exactly what it's about.

 

Don't wait for therapists to tell you how to do something you already KNOW how to do. Take a risk and invite your wife to fall in love with you again. Even though you already do.

 

I think this is oversimplifying the feelings behind the betrayal.

 

And the OP may or may not wish to address how this has made him feel - and what steps need to be addressed to repair the damage.

 

It appears they may get along fine while he's with her - it's what she passively/aggressively does when he isn't looking that needs to be dealt with.

 

It's what she doesn't INTEND to tell that would be nice to have out on the table.

 

And some people just don't want to know the extent of the truth.

[Mickey_Fitzpatrick]

People live by trust. We all do. We trust when we mount a bus, that the driver is not a lunatic. And when we ENTER into a new relationship, we have an enourmous capacity to TRUST a person we don't know form a hole in the ground.

 

That's how humans are wired.

 

But when we ENTER into a new relationship we also know, and women probably more than men, that we have our radar up a little, just to make sure.

That radar, you are calling MISTRUST, but you mistaken. That radar is about SAFETY, and safety and trust are NOT synonymous.

 

When we experience BETRAYAL we now have a new problem. Our trust is broken and we no longer feel SAFE. As one psychologist puts it: Once we have been betrayed, we now have an active BETRAYAL-MISTRUST mechanism which is alert. This system takes over when we call our WS ans there is no answer, when s/he says Ill be home at 8 and strolls in at 10.

 

The issue is that we carry too much of that initial trust during the honeymoon of our relationships well into marriage and definitely WELL into that "deeper" love we get shifting from our "cocaine high" addition to "heroine high" addiction. Our radar for unsafe activities is WAY DOWN. I know mine was and there are some stories here in LS that show you the same: there is one recently developed in here in which a WS has a H who has invited her OM (friend of H) into their HOME because the OM is leaving his W (of course H suspects nothing.) And the H is prepared to go on business trips constantly leaving his F to live und the roof of his WS and her OM!!! This is man who so blindly TRUSTS his wife that he cannot, even when SHE broaches the subject, suspect that its not a good thing. This is the problem of blind trust.

 

But if I say to him, hey man, although you love your wife, and although you trust her, its not such a good idea for you to have your best friend move in when you know he finds your wife attractive, and she tells you she feels uncomfortable. So if he agrees, that this is not a good thing, this does NOT make him UNTRUSTING, it just means he's not blind stupid trust and has his radar up for safety.

 

No one is checking up on their cheating wife because they trust them like the original poster stated in his trust but verify post. If you are checking up on a cheating spouse it is because you don't trust them.

 

 

It's ok if you don't trust your wife and feel the need to check up on her after she cheated on you, but I think the original poster and you should recognize it for what it is - LACK of trust or mistrust.

[Mickey_Fitzpatrick]

Its the opposite. It's a form of verification that your trust has meaning, that its SAFE to trust. The only way to determine, after an betrayal, that your WS is actually doing what s/he says, is to verify.

 

MISTRUST would be if your wife said something and you didn't believe her version of things and then decided she was cheating on

 

During the early months of my WS's NC I asked her EVERY DAY if she bumped into or had contact with her AP. This was NOT because I didn't trust her, it was because I DESPERATELY NEEDED to ask something, be told, believe it, and verify it was true. The feeling of getting the TRUTH from her helped me to rebuild trust. THE ONLY WAY A BS is going to get trust back is if each day a BS can question, or verify that what he/she thinks is happening with the WS is actually happening. AGAIN not because we MISTRUST the WS but because we lost FAITH IN OURSELVES TO KNOW WHEN WE WERE OR WERE NOT HEARING THE TRUTH. Verifying is a fantastic form of creating safety that your willingness to trust again is NOT UNFOUNDED.

 

Please look up the definition of trust and mistrust. If you trusted your wife you would not need to check on her to make sure she is not cheating on you. When you have checked up on her enough over a long enough period of time then maybe you will trust her again. You verify because you don't trust. You checking on her might help you rebuild your trust, but checking on her is a sign of your mistrust not a sign of your trust.

[2sunny]

She lies by omission. She never offered her truth.

 

He had to discover it when she slipped up.

 

 

Seaview - you tell me how he is supposed to trust when she isn't the type to OFFER her truth.

 

Since/IF he has to chase what is real = there no way to trust.

 

 

What exactly does she plan to change? Is she now willing to OFFER every bit if truth about what she is or isn't doing?

[Mickey_Fitzpatrick]

Its the opposite. It's a form of verification that your trust has meaning, that its SAFE to trust. The only way to determine, after an betrayal, that your WS is actually doing what s/he says, is to verify.

 

MISTRUST would be if your wife said something and you didn't believe her version of things and then decided she was cheating on

During the early months of my WS's NC I asked her EVERY DAY if she bumped into or had contact with her AP. This was NOT because I didn't trust her, it was because I DESPERATELY NEEDED to ask something, be told, believe it, and verify it was true. The feeling of getting the TRUTH from her helped me to rebuild trust. THE ONLY WAY A BS is going to get trust back is if each day a BS can question, or verify that what he/she thinks is happening with the WS is actually happening.

 

If you already have trust, then you do not need to "rebuild trust." If you already have trust, then you do not have to "get trust back." You can't rebuild what already is built, and you can't get back what you already possess. When you verify, you are trying to turn your mistrust into trust, what you refer to as helping you to "rebuild trust" and "get trust back." the act of verifying helps you do that. But you verify because you DO NOT TRUST.

 

I get it that you want to say you trust your wife because it makes you feel better about how your reconciliation is going, but if you are checking up on her, to the extent that you are checking up on her, you do not in fact trust her. It is ok not to trust her, probably even normal not to trust her, but don't fool yourself, if you are checking on her, it is because you don't trust her.

 

Trust but verify means your trust is lacking to some degree, so you need to verify because you don't fully trust. To the extent that your trust is lacking, you will verify. My point to the original poster was that verifying is done out not having trust, not out of having trust. The original poster should be honest with himself, and you should be honest with yourself, if you have to check up on your wife to make sure she hasn't gone back to her cheating ways and to feel "SAFE" in your reconciliation, go ahead and check up on her, but don't call it trust.

[Mickey_Fitzpatrick]

I have in fact read extensively on the subject of trust and how to recover it. Extensively. And you continue to confuse/conflate VERIFY with MISTRUST. They are not the same.

 

I check up on my child when she has gone to bed. I check up on my bank accounts once in a while. I check up on my wife every so often, to make sure things are okay. I do'nt mistrust my child sleeping, I dont mistrust my bank and I dont mistrust my wife. I feel good checking up because it CONFIRMS what I already thought: EVERYTHING IS FINE.

 

You cannot recover something you already have. If you have trust, then there is no need to recover it. If you don't have trust, then you verify to help you recover it.