Why do men cheat on wife they love?

[anne1707]

... At best, I'd think maybe, maybe he thinks he loves me, but he really doesn't... At no point would I ever, for a second, believe that he loves me if he was having an affair.

 

I would say that I am not alone in interpreting this as telling someone like me that I didn't love my husband when I know I did.

[HermioneG]

If someone cheats the marriage/relationship is BROKEN. Period.

The cheaters love their wives, children and family, BUT they are not in love with their wives, otherwise they wouldn't cheat.

Do they love the OW or not?

Either way these relationships are doomed.

 

If MM leaves the OW she will hurt, he will hurt, the wife will hurt if she knows.

If MM leaves the wife, he will hurt, his wife will hurt, his children will hurt and eventually all this will pass to the OW. The situation will be always complicated, especially if children are involved.

 

The ideal way would be this:

The wife finds another man.

The MM finds another woman. (not OW).

The OW finds another man.(not MM).

 

I mean, noone of these three (wife-OW-MM) deserve each other.

THAT SIMPLE!

 

 

Gosh.

 

That would make sense, if infidelity was about the marriage.

 

It is about what's wrong with a wayward, though. It isn't about the betrayed spouse. The marriage. Or the affair partner.

 

So. Yeah. Well.

[SunshineToday]

I had an affair. I loved my spouse. I stayed with my spouse.

 

Why did I do it?

 

1. The attention felt good.

2. I convinced my self I WOULD NEVER GET CAUGHT and could squirm out of the affair when I had too.

 

 

So please stop thinking you can't love your spouse and still do an awful thing.

[Anne Boleyn]

I would say that I am not alone in interpreting this as telling someone like me that I didn't love my husband when I know I did.

 

What I said:

 

"I think what it all boils down to in the end is on how one defines love. If you think love can exist without fidelity as long as there's regret or apology and an attempt to fix it, or a promise to stay... Then I suppose to that person with that definition of love, then love could exist between a WS and two other people.

 

If you feel that love means exclusivity and marital love only exists between two people and if you go outside of that, it means you're stating you don't have enough love for your spouse that you'd choose to maintain that relationship, then no, love doesn't exist from one person to two people.

 

I happen to subscribe to the latter. If I had a husband that had an affair, and came home and said that he didn't love her, did love me, or loved us both, or some combination thereof, I'd not buy it for a second. I'd think he was telling me what I wanted to hear, telling me what he thought I'd need to hear to keep from leaving, trying to manipulate the situation for sympathy, was setting up everything to be the OW's fault or otherwise minimize his role and involvement... At best, I'd think maybe, maybe he thinks he loves me, but he really doesn't... At no point would I ever, for a second, believe that he loves me if he was having an affair"

 

I very clearly said that if one defines love as option A and not option B, then sure, I suppose maybe one person could love two people.

 

Then I very clearly said that I do not, I'm more option B, which means I wouldn't buy the "I love you but I cheated" stance for a second. By my definition of what love is, it's completely impossible to love somebody in a marital, eternal sense, but then cheat on them. I would not buy any of the above excuses at all for the reasons stated above.

 

This is not a reflection on you and whatever you feel, as I said, maybe we are talking about entirely different things and expectations with love. For you, love can exist without faithfulness, during or after a breech of trust, or the breaking of promises as long as there's regret, apologies, a promise to stay, and an attempt at R. For me... It doesn't.

 

For me, it doesn't. To me, all the "I love you's" in the world are cancelled out by the fact that an affair took place, because words are great, but the actions clearly show to me that there isn't really love there. Because, in my definition of love, people who love each other don't cheat on eachother. For you, it's different. That's fine.

 

That all being said, that's not the belief I subscribe to and I wouldn't believe it if my spouse told me that after an affair. I like, not even love, but like, a lot of things... My car, my wedding ring, a designer purse I have... At no point have I ever thought to myself "Man, I really, really like my purse... You know, I'm going to totally wreck it, cut it to pieces.... And then try to put it back together. That's a great way to take care of something that's important to me."

Edited February 18, 2014 by Anne Boleyn

[krazikat]

What I said:

 

"I think what it all boils down to in the end is on how one defines love. If you think love can exist without fidelity as long as there's regret or apology and an attempt to fix it, or a promise to stay... Then I suppose to that person with that definition of love, then love could exist between a WS and two other people.

 

If you feel that love means exclusivity and marital love only exists between two people and if you go outside of that, it means you're stating you don't have enough love for your spouse that you'd choose to maintain that relationship, then no, love doesn't exist from one person to two people.

 

I happen to subscribe to the latter. If I had a husband that had an affair, and came home and said that he didn't love her, did love me, or loved us both, or some combination thereof, I'd not buy it for a second. I'd think he was telling me what I wanted to hear, telling me what he thought I'd need to hear to keep from leaving, trying to manipulate the situation for sympathy, was setting up everything to be the OW's fault or otherwise minimize his role and involvement... At best, I'd think maybe, maybe he thinks he loves me, but he really doesn't... At no point would I ever, for a second, believe that he loves me if he was having an affair"

 

I very clearly said that if one defines love as option A and not option B, then sure, I suppose maybe one person could love two people.

 

Then I very clearly said that I do not, I'm more option B, which means I wouldn't buy the "I love you but I cheated" stance for a second. By definition of what love is, I it's completely impossible to love somebody in a marital, eternal sense, but then cheat on them. I would not buy any of the above excuses at all for the reasons stated above.

 

Ann is not alone in her interpretation of what you posted. This "clarification" only confirms that interpretation, which is that you do not believe that a spouse who cheats loves their spouse...yet Ann, as a fws, has said that she did love her spouse despite her cheating...and she is not the only ws to have said this....

 

Anne B, just because you think something is false doesn't mean it's not true...but thank you for clarifying your thought process.

[veritas lux mea]

People have this false idea that love is perfect. Maybe it is but people aren't and sometimes we hurt the ones we love. My story is like what owl said. I have been on a hard emotional journey since. But I always loved my husband. He is my best friend. My parents loved me and in the large picture I never doubted it but there were times where they did hurtful things. I also always loves my parents and yet did or said hurtful things. Yes it is a different relationship but people put romantic relationships on a pedastel and don't even realize that.

 

Cheaters don't always love their spouse or their affair partner. No one has even came close to saying that. Life and situations are far too diverse for that. And yet we have people who clamp their hands over their ears and say nanana and will not listen to anything that contradicts their point of view. You can't make absolutes about other people.

 

And if you believe someone cannot be in love with two people or love ther betrayed spouse ever your world view is quite narrowminded and limited. And no understanding of humans, emotions, or varied circumstances involved.

 

If a cheater doesn't love their spouse because they cheat than that goes the other way and they don't love their affair partner either. And while I know there are betrayed spouse who believe that or those with no first hand experience that is not something the OWs who hold the "don't love their spouse" mantra will agree with even though if they don't the are completely showing ther hypocrisy to believe with absoluteness that a cheater can never love their spouse and yet choose to cheat.

[woinlove]

Anne B, I'm confused by the point you are trying to make on the topic of this thread.

 

One may say what they would do if they were cheated on, but in reality, it is difficult to predict the future and it probably depends on the circumstances, how much in love with and how committed to the cheater one is and how the cheater behaves upon and after and had behaved before discovery. I understand your position on this and it makes sense to me, but it's a bit tangential to the main topic.

 

On the topic of this thread, one may say one would never cheat on someone you love, but this thread is about people who do and there are those who have been there and done that. Not sure if you are trying to argue, Anne, that such a phenomenon doesn't exist and they are lying to themselves? That seems to be your point, but I'm not sure. Or is your point simply that such people are different from you? If so, fair enough, but it doesn't answer the question of why someone who loves their spouse would cheat on them.

[rumbleseat]

What I said:

 

"I think what it all boils down to in the end is on how one defines love. If you think love can exist without fidelity as long as there's regret or apology and an attempt to fix it, or a promise to stay... Then I suppose to that person with that definition of love, then love could exist between a WS and two other people.

 

If you feel that love means exclusivity and marital love only exists between two people and if you go outside of that, it means you're stating you don't have enough love for your spouse that you'd choose to maintain that relationship, then no, love doesn't exist from one person to two people.

 

I happen to subscribe to the latter. If I had a husband that had an affair, and came home and said that he didn't love her, did love me, or loved us both, or some combination thereof, I'd not buy it for a second. I'd think he was telling me what I wanted to hear, telling me what he thought I'd need to hear to keep from leaving, trying to manipulate the situation for sympathy, was setting up everything to be the OW's fault or otherwise minimize his role and involvement... At best, I'd think maybe, maybe he thinks he loves me, but he really doesn't... At no point would I ever, for a second, believe that he loves me if he was having an affair"

 

I very clearly said that if one defines love as option A and not option B, then sure, I suppose maybe one person could love two people.

 

Then I very clearly said that I do not, I'm more option B, which means I wouldn't buy the "I love you but I cheated" stance for a second. By my definition of what love is, it's completely impossible to love somebody in a marital, eternal sense, but then cheat on them. I would not buy any of the above excuses at all for the reasons stated above.

 

This is not a reflection on you and whatever you feel, as I said, maybe we are talking about entirely different things and expectations with love. For you, love can exist without faithfulness, during or after a breech of trust, or the breaking of promises as long as there's regret, apologies, a promise to stay, and an attempt at R. For me... It doesn't.

 

For me, it doesn't. To me, all the "I love you's" in the world are cancelled out by the fact that an affair took place, because words are great, but the actions clearly show to me that there isn't really love there. Because, in my definition of love, people who love each other don't cheat on eachother. For you, it's different. That's fine.

 

That all being said, that's not the belief I subscribe to and I wouldn't believe it if my spouse told me that after an affair. I like, not even love, but like, a lot of things... My car, my wedding ring, a designer purse I have... At no point have I ever thought to myself "Man, I really, really like my purse... You know, I'm going to totally wreck it, cut it to pieces.... And then try to put it back together. That's a great way to take care of something that's important to me."

 

 

By your definition, how would you feel if it came out that your now h had been sleeping with his wife, telling her that he loved her, and leading her to believe he was being faithful while he was inanA with you? At that point in tine, would he have lived you? Would that spoil the relationship you have now?

[Anne Boleyn]

Anne B, I'm confused by the point you are trying to make on the topic of this thread.

 

One may say what they would do if they were cheated on, but in reality, it is difficult to predict the future and it probably depends on the circumstances, how much in love with and how committed to the cheater one is and how the cheater behaves upon and after and had behaved before discovery. I understand your position on this and it makes sense to me, but it's a bit tangential to the main topic.

 

I don't see how it's a tangent from the main topic. The question is if somebody can love their spouse if they're having an affair. I said that, after weighing out there may be a difference in what one expects from love, I'd say that some people may believe they can love two people because they have different expectations/requirements of love. This may be the case of the OP's OM.

 

I also said that for me, and it seems others, to say love exists between one person and another, but that person is cheating would be impossible as you can't truly love somebody you're lying to and cheating on. If I had a husband who cheated and who said he still loved me, I'd not buy it. For all we know, this is what the OP's OM's BS could believe. There is enough people who think that love and cheating are contradictory and conflicting that it warrants discussing.

 

On the topic of this thread, one may say one would never cheat on someone you love, but this thread is about people who do and there are those who have been there and done that. Not sure if you are trying to argue, Anne, that such a phenomenon doesn't exist and they are lying to themselves? That seems to be your point, but I'm not sure. Or is your point simply that such people are different from you? If so, fair enough, but it doesn't answer the question of why someone who loves their spouse would cheat on them.

 

This thread isn't about or for people who cheat on people they love, this thread is a speculative question about why somebody cheats on somebody they love. We've heard numerous reasons as to why, as well as people who've said that love and affairs are conflicting and don't exist together.

 

My answer was I said that I don't tend to believe that somebody who loves somebody else cheats on them, and if I was presented with that situation, I'd not believe for a second that my hypothetical WS loved me if he was cheating. Then I conceded it's possible that people may be in love with their BS and still cheat, just that they define love and have different expectations of it than I do. That doesn't change what my expectations of it are as I'd still think that if I had a WS, any line about loving me would be just that.

 

Why bring it up? Because the question asked us to explore it, and because while it's entirely possible the OP's MM says "I love my wife more than anything, but I'm sleeping with somebody else," it's equally possible that his BS would say "you're completely full of crap."

[Anne Boleyn]

By your definition, how would you feel if it came out that your now h had been sleeping with his wife, telling her that he loved her, and leading her to believe he was being faithful while he was inanA with you?

 

During the early part of our affair before DDay and during the NC periods after she said she wanted an R and he felt obligated to go back, he did say he loved her (not during R but before DDay), slept with her, led her to believe he was faithful (which he may or may not have been, depending on what was going on at the time with us). During that time, honestly, I know he didn't love her, he was going through the motions, which is what he said and what his actions made clear. He'd agree, his BS would disagree... She'd insist to this day left, right, sideways that he loved her at that time. Maybe he didn't feel it, but he did. And during that time, while he might have really cared for me, it still hadn't grown to a point where I'd have accepted that his love was genuine love.

 

Early on, it was the dance of just having an affair and not wanting to get caught. For the few weeks we were in pre-DDay, I did the same thing, so it's not like I'd hold against him what I was also doing. We viewed it as part of being in an affair, the trade off, as you will. I didn't take it as him betraying me or me betraying him, we both knew that this was something that we just had to do to keep things under wraps.

 

As our feelings grew and we had DDay and were dating openly, I think we realized we did love eachother. After she said she wanted R and he said he had to go back because that's what his faith asked of him, and he did use the "I don't love her, I love you and I'll always love you" my response to him was the same as I said it would be here... You're full of crap. Looking back at that period, I still think the same... I think he loved me while we were together, but not enough to want to be with me over somebody else. It wasn't actual marital love, just really strong affection, attraction, and maybe the seeds of love. And I think he'd say that he did love me, but he was confused and felt he had to go back, but would ultimately agree that he hadn't gotten to a point were love was truly love like we share now. It was still something he could walk away from if he felt he had to. Which he did for a few weeks before he came back.

 

He says during that time he never said he loved her because he didn't feel it. I believe that, not just because he says he didn't, but because his BS would tell me that all the time, though if I didn't have that to back up his claim, I'm not sure I'd believe it or not believe it, though it wouldn't matter to me now and I doubt it would have mattered to me then. If they were sleeping together, honestly, I never asked and he's never shared, though I assume they were as they'd have no reason not to be.

 

How does it feel now? It's part of our past. His leaving hurt, as did the idea that he didn't love me like I loved him. Yes, I didn't believe him when he said he loved me for a time. Yes, I did assume they were having sex and the idea both drove me crazy and reinforced that the love he had for me wasn't actual love... Knowing it happened meant it was something to work through, which we did, and doesn't really reflect the relationship we have now. I haven't changed my belief, however, that what he felt wasn't love.

 

At that point in tine, would he have lived you?

Not sure of this question... If this was your hypothetical, wouldn't you say if he lived with me or not? Or if you're asking if it actually happened, are you asking if we lived together when it happened? If it's the latter, yes, we did live together when he ended things to go R with his BS.

 

Would that spoil the relationship you have now?

No. I knew about it and if I didn't, if he was in R mode with his BS, then it'd be a given that whatever he said or did during that time was because he was in R mode, not a mode where he was with me. Even if I found out now that he had sex with her every day, 10 times a day during that period, he was in R with her and owed nothing to me... I can't demand something of him that wasn't owed to me, though I can use it to say with certainty that, no, he wasn't really in love with me at that time.

[rumbleseat]

The whole idea that cheating means a ws doesn't love their spouse flies in the face of everything many om/ow say about their A how it started , etc.

 

 

So many say the A " just happened" and that the ws wasn't looking to cheat and would normally never consider having an A.

 

If we take this as truth, then what conclusion can be drawn? Before the the A, the ws probably did love their bs. They probably were content enough in their M, and would have gone on being so if circumstance x, y and z hadn't happened and they met the ow/ om. They probably continued to love their spouse throughout the affair, hence the desire to protect them from being hurt by it (I'm not saying that's psychologically healthy, as it isn't). If they didn't love them, they wouldn't care if they got caught, and may even welcome the chance, acting in a careless manner, etc.

 

Most ws don't do this, I fact, they take the exact opposite tack and cover up the affair as strongly as possible. They are happy in their married life enough that they want to preserve , maintain and protect it.

 

Even if they were unhappy, there was likely still enough love there to keep the marriage intact, otherwise wouldn't the line from the ws have been " I was open to an A, wouldn't have said "no", would have welcomed the chance to get what they were not getting getting from their spouse from someone else?

 

Yet few say that. Why?

 

From my point of view, they probably did love their bs. While it may not have been a healthy kind of love, it is still there, and with a little bit of work and nurturing it can grow and flourish.

 

As for why they could cheat on their spouse if they love them, there are a myriad of reasons, ranging from mental health issues to boredom to the way they saw their parents express love when they were a child. Some are going through a crisis in their life, some come from a culture where affairs are quietly accepted, some area just completely and totally confused and hurting themselves. Some are revenge a's.

 

Some are super at compartmentalizing, and may even view the A as part of their secondary life. The m and bs are number one,and will be protected. The A is number two, and will be maintained,but if push comes to shove, them wins out.

 

Again, I' nit saying that sort of love is a good thing, but the ws does love their bs.

 

When it comes right down to it, it's not for the bs or om/ow to say whether or not the ws loves the bs. Only they can say that. What the bs can say is whether or not that love is what they want and need in their life.

[rumbleseat]

During the early part of our affair before DDay and during the NC periods after she said she wanted an R and he felt obligated to go back, he did say he loved her (not during R but before DDay), slept with her, led her to believe he was faithful (which he may or may not have been, depending on what was going on at the time with us). During that time, honestly, I know he didn't love her, he was going through the motions, which is what he said and what his actions made clear. He'd agree, his BS would disagree... She'd insist to this day left, right, sideways that he loved her at that time. Maybe he didn't feel it, but he did. And during that time, while he might have really cared for me, it still hadn't grown to a point where I'd have accepted that his love was genuine love.

 

Early on, it was the dance of just having an affair and not wanting to get caught. For the few weeks we were in pre-DDay, I did the same thing, so it's not like I'd hold against him what I was also doing. We viewed it as part of being in an affair, the trade off, as you will. I didn't take it as him betraying me or me betraying him, we both knew that this was something that we just had to do to keep things under wraps.

 

As our feelings grew and we had DDay and were dating openly, I think we realized we did love eachother. After she said she wanted R and he said he had to go back because that's what his faith asked of him, and he did use the "I don't love her, I love you and I'll always love you" my response to him was the same as I said it would be here... You're full of crap. Looking back at that period, I still think the same... I think he loved me while we were together, but not enough to want to be with me over somebody else. It wasn't actual marital love, just really strong affection, attraction, and maybe the seeds of love. And I think he'd say that he did love me, but he was confused and felt he had to go back, but would ultimately agree that he hadn't gotten to a point were love was truly love like we share now. It was still something he could walk away from if he felt he had to. Which he did for a few weeks before he came back.

 

He says during that time he never said he loved her because he didn't feel it. I believe that, not just because he says he didn't, but because his BS would tell me that all the time, though if I didn't have that to back up his claim, I'm not sure I'd believe it or not believe it, though it wouldn't matter to me now and I doubt it would have mattered to me then. If they were sleeping together, honestly, I never asked and he's never shared, though I assume they were as they'd have no reason not to be.

 

How does it feel now? It's part of our past. His leaving hurt, as did the idea that he didn't love me like I loved him. Yes, I didn't believe him when he said he loved me for a time. Yes, I did assume they were having sex and the idea both drove me crazy and reinforced that the love he had for me wasn't actual love... Knowing it happened meant it was something to work through, which we did, and doesn't really reflect the relationship we have now. I haven't changed my belief, however, that what he felt wasn't love.

 

Not sure of this question... If this was your hypothetical, wouldn't you say if he lived with me or not? Or if you're asking if it actually happened, are you asking if we lived together when it happened? If it's the latter, yes, we did live together when he ended things to go R with his BS.

 

No. I knew about it and if I didn't, if he was in R mode with his BS, then it'd be a given that whatever he said or did during that time was because he was in R mode, not a mode where he was with me. Even if I found out now that he had sex with her every day, 10 times a day during that period, he was in R with her and owed nothing to me... I can't demand something of him that wasn't owed to me, though I can use it to say with certainty that, no, he wasn't really in love with me at that time.

 

I actually meant to type " if he loved you" not " if he lived you" . Sorry about that.

 

I am just having a very hard time reconciling what you say on here with your actions in real life.

[Anne Boleyn]

I actually meant to type " if he loved you" not " if he lived you" . Sorry about that.

 

I am just having a very hard time reconciling what you say on here with your actions in real life.

 

Not sure why, I've always been pretty open about things and I'm applying the same standard I stated before to myself.

[Anne Boleyn]

The whole idea that cheating means a ws doesn't love their spouse flies in the face of everything many om/ow say about their A how it started , etc.

 

So many say the A " just happened" and that the ws wasn't looking to cheat and would normally never consider having an A.

 

If we take this as truth, then what conclusion can be drawn? Before the the A, the ws probably did love their bs. They probably were content enough in their M, and would have gone on being so if circumstance x, y and z hadn't happened and they met the ow/ om. They probably continued to love their spouse throughout the affair, hence the desire to protect them from being hurt by it (I'm not saying that's psychologically healthy, as it isn't). If they didn't love them, they wouldn't care if they got caught, and may even welcome the chance, acting in a careless manner, etc.

 

Most ws don't do this, I fact, they take the exact opposite tack and cover up the affair as strongly as possible. They are happy in their married life enough that they want to preserve , maintain and protect it.

 

At some point, I'm sure a WS did love their BS, but if they're at a point where they're having or thinking about having an affair, I don't think one can reasonably assume that they loved their BS simply because an affair "just happened." I'd say mine was an affair not planned for but that "just happened," but there was still that point that said "I don't love my spouse enough to not do this." It was about 30 seconds before the PA started, but it was still there. And if you don't think of your BS before you do it and it just happens, well, I think that speaks volumes on its own.

 

As for not disclosing the affair to prevent hurt, that's a mixture of self-preservation and not wanting to hurt others. Not wanting to hurt somebody doesn't mean love, it means not wanting to hurt somebody. And for some people, finding out the affair or not has nothing to do with wanting to prevent hurt, it's about wanting to prevent hassle. Maintaining the status quo. I can say very clearly I didn't love my husband, but I didn't want him to know about the affair. It had nothing to do with loving him, it had everything to do with I didn't want to hurt him because nobody likes hurting people, I didn't want to have to deal with the confrontation that would come as a result of the affair, and frankly, I just wanted to be left alone.

 

None of what you speculated means that a BS must be loved by their WS.

 

Even if they were unhappy, there was likely still enough love there to keep the marriage intact, otherwise wouldn't the line from the ws have been " I was open to an A, wouldn't have said "no", would have welcomed the chance to get what they were not getting getting from their spouse from someone else?

 

Yet few say that. Why?

I see a lot of people say that they had an affair because BS dropped the ball somewhere. Not enough sex, not enough attention, unhappy marriage, etc etc. Again, if we define love as not leaving, then by virtue of being there I suppose that could mean love to somebody. But not divorcing doesn't mean loving. It just means not divorcing.

 

From my point of view, they probably did love their bs. While it may not have been a healthy kind of love, it is still there, and with a little bit of work and nurturing it can grow and flourish.

Again, it's presumptive and speculative wishful thinking. Maybe it could have with work and nurturing, maybe not. I fall into "we were married, but not happy, but not unhappy enough to leave" category, and work and nurturing wouldn't have been enough to bring it back, even before the A. It was that staying was easier than going and less of a hassle.

 

As for why they could cheat on their spouse if they love them, there are a myriad of reasons, ranging from mental health issues to boredom to the way they saw their parents express love when they were a child. Some are going through a crisis in their life, some come from a culture where affairs are quietly accepted, some area just completely and totally confused and hurting themselves. Some are revenge a's.

 

Some are super at compartmentalizing, and may even view the A as part of their secondary life. The m and bs are number one,and will be protected. The A is number two, and will be maintained,but if push comes to shove, them wins out.

 

Again, I' nit saying that sort of love is a good thing, but the ws does love their bs.

It all depends on how you define love, I guess. For me, if I was given any of the above reasons for why an affair happened, I'd say, again... Not a chance. You had an affair, you don't love me. Depending on the excuse, I could say he wasn't being accountable for his choices, or he was throwing the OW/OM under the bus, or he was trying to find excuses to justify it... But in the end, if you're having an affair on me, you don't really love me.

 

Some people accept the above along with the "I love you" to be true, but I don't. I shouldn't be number one out of the two options. That's no victory of proof of love to me. The fact that there is two options when I should have been the only option goes a long way to saying that what we share is something, but not really marital love. Maybe he does feel affection, loyalty, obligation, maybe he's telling me what I want to hear, maybe he's saying what he thinks he has to say to keep me from leaving, maybe he's saying the easiest words on the route to fixing it... But the fact remains, I don't take "I love you" as true from somebody who's having an affair.

 

When it comes right down to it, it's not for the bs or om/ow to say whether or not the ws loves the bs. Only they can say that. What the bs can say is whether or not that love is what they want and need in their life.

I agree, only the WS can say, but the BS can choose to believe it or not believe it. And all I'll say is that a person who's been lying to your face about being intimate with somebody else is full well and capable of putting on quite a show to save their own butt when they're against the wall. If they can keep an affair from you and make everything they express to you during that time so believable, pulling the "I love you and always have" card isn't that hard at all.

 

You always hear about the BS who says they had no idea anything was wrong, then DDay and they're stunned. It's not that hard to have the WS re-create that again to get everything all in order again. And there's more than one time I've read a story about a BS who insists their WS still loves them and I've thought to myself "Hmmm... Not sure that they love you so much that you want to believe they love you, or at least love you more than the OW/OM... And they're lucky enough really, really good liars with an audience who desperately wants to believe..."

Edited February 18, 2014 by Anne Boleyn

[rumbleseat]

Not sure why, I've always been pretty open about things and I'm applying the same standard I stated before to myself.

 

I really do find your stance confusing. It kind of niggled at something in the back of my mind, as you have stated before that you loved each other even when he two of you were still married to others, which would indicate zero fidelity. This contradicts what you have been saying in this thread.

 

An example of this type of post was made in the following thread:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/457958-real-love#post5494164

 

"Well, it's all a matter of individuality and perspective, isn't it? Everybody's story is different which means every response will be different... Such as for me:

 

• Love endures long… Yes - Depending on how one defines "long" but from start-to-finish, our friendship was a year, our EA was another yearish, then the PA, and then the divorces. All told, we've been together 5-6 years. I'd say over half-a-decade qualifies as not short

• Love is patient… Yes - I'd say we qualify as patient. There was a lot of give and take, forgiveness, and patience for things to resolve, for better or for worse. Waiting for divorces to go through, waiting for one or the other in a context or another. Understanding that emotions and reactions were those of stress and pressure, forgiving it, and moving on.

• Love is kind… Yes - Even at our worst, there was always kindness. Unless you're saying no, love isn't kind because of his ex wife or my husband... Well, we weren't in love with either of them.

• Love is never envious or jealous… Yes and No - At first, there were no issues of jealousy because we knew we couldn't be together and we were a diversion from our marriages. But as time progressed, especially after we were given the OK to date but then i was retracted, there was jealousy. He was jealous that I was free, I was jealous of his wife. Those issues have since been worked out, however.

• Love is not proud… Yes and No - When we were in our affair portion, we weren't proud. Were were anything but, actually. And our love wasn't a proud love either. It was quiet, secretive. Now that we are together, we're openly loving and affectionate, very proud to be together, now I'd say it's a "no."

• Love does not rejoice over evil but rejoices over truth… Yes - Seeing as this is a contextual passage that refers to gossip and love, I'd have to say that I'm proud one of our accomplishments that, despite rumors, we're able to let it go and let the truth take over.

• Love does not seek its own way… No - By default, the love of an affair seeks it's own way to survive. But then again, so does a lot of love. And considering the whole verse includes things about how love isn't easily angered and doesn't keep a record of wrongs... I'd say that we are OK there too, though there were periods where there was a lot of anger, though not at each other generally."

 

so it would seem that you do think that love can exist without fidelity, at least in your situation. if this is true, then why can't it for someone else? Or am I misunderstanding something? You clearly state that you have loved each other for years, even ones which predate your marriage, that you loved each other during the A. Are you now saying this was one sided, and you loved him but he didn't love you?

[Anne Boleyn]

I really do find your stance confusing. It kind of niggled at something in the back of my mind, as you have stated before that you loved each other even when he two of you were still married to others, which would indicate zero fidelity. This contradicts what you have been saying in this thread.

 

Yes... I loved him while I was still with my husband. During that time, I didn't tell my husband I loved him, stopped having sex with him, and spent every night on the couch after spending hours online with my now husband. I did this because, despite being with my husband, I didn't love him. I loved the OM. And when I had the opportunity to move out, I did. A little while later, we filed for divorce. During that time, I was with my now H, not having sex or acting in an intimate way with anybody but him. Even during the periods where we broke and were in NC, I knew that the breaks wouldn't last and our A would resume, and didn't do anything with anybody else.

 

For him, he insists he loves me longer than I say he really did, but regardless, there was a period of time after he'd left, we were together openly, but he was not divorced. He was not with her in any way sexually and was also faithful to me. During that time we were exclusive with each other and that was a defined parameter of our relationship, neither of us broke it. Even during the first NC and R attempt, he didn't do anything with her, he broke with me and then went to R.

 

An example of this type of post was made in the following thread:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/457958-real-love#post5494164

 

A majority of that post was written by somebody else and I responded to it. The response to it was written from the perspective of somebody 6 years down the road who was looking at life now, or looking back to the time where we were in our A and committed. And I did say that we had periods of patience, jealousy, and compromises, just as I said in the post where you asked me:

 

There was a lot of give and take, forgiveness, and patience for things to resolve, for better or for worse. Waiting for divorces to go through, waiting for one or the other in a context or another. Understanding that emotions and reactions were those of stress and pressure, forgiving it, and moving on.

 

At first, there were no issues of jealousy because we knew we couldn't be together and we were a diversion from our marriages. But as time progressed, especially after we were given the OK to date but then i was retracted, there was jealousy. He was jealous that I was free, I was jealous of his wife. Those issues have since been worked out, however.

 

And our love wasn't a proud love either. It was quiet, secretive.

 

so it would seem that you do think that love can exist without fidelity, at least in your situation.if this is true, then why can't it for someone else? Or am I misunderstanding something?

I think you've assumed a lot of things to arrive at the conclusion that I think love exists without fidelity, but in truth, you can take me at my word when I say, in my case, by my definition of love, no, I don't think you can cheat on somebody you love.

 

Since this assumption isn't true, I would also think that could apply to somebody else who has the same definition of love as I do. For those who think you can cheat but still love because what they define love as is different than me, then maybe they can. But regardless, for me, the answer is still no. You don't cheat on people you love.

 

You clearly state that you have loved each other for years, even ones which predate your marriage, that you loved each other during the A. Are you now saying this was one sided, and you loved him but he didn't love you?

No, I'm saying that we have loved each other for years, that we loved each other during the A, and during those times where we were in love, we were either married, together, but not divorced yet, we were still having an A but one or both partners was not having a relationship with their BS, or we were at the point where my husband was living with her for about a month after we were together and committed, while she was trying to R, but he was caring for the kids. I'm also saying that, from the moment he started the A with me, he was not in love with his wife. I'm not saying he was in love with me, either, just that he also was clearly not in love with his wife.

 

Despite this, there were certainly windows where he'd say to this day that he loved me, where I would say he did not. Is that one-sided? He says no, but I'd say for a period, yes, it was.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Anne Boleyn

[ComingInHot]

It reads all so confusing right now! On one hand, I "get" what Anne is trying to communicate. She sounds quite resolute or black-n-white on her belief. Yet I read if that belief is true and her then MM now H Did go back to His then W to R but told Anne he really only loved her but told his then W he loved her and they had sex well then he would have(If I read correctly, in Ann e's eyes) cheated on Anne meaning mm didn't love her when he was going through R with his then W...

But now I read that with much work, patience, forgiveness etc... that her now H actually Does love her (Anne)... Soooo much craziness to make what I consider (the A) to have to be a "gray" topic into a black-n-white topic that suits...

I feel very happy to be long past this head spinning part to see that my H did love me, but was in love with himself to the point he thought he could just help himself to the exOW and hurt her too without so much of an ILY or even a thank you parting gift. .

 

Then again, I may be able to see past my own beliefs to at least understand different perspectives even if I don't agree*

[Fluttershy]

You anne bolynn seem to like to split hairs to make your your point or defend your beliefs. That entire post was splitting hairs.

 

I give little thought answers with a hypothetical twist. After all a good chunk of people beliee they will never cheat and then do. And a good chunck of people believe they would never be involved with a married person and then are.

 

Hypotheticals and "i would do y if x happened" mean nothing until x happened and y is actually carried out.

[Fluttershy]

It reads all so confusing right now! On one hand, I "get" what Anne is trying to communicate. She sounds quite resolute or black-n-white on her belief. Yet I read if that belief is true and her then MM now H Did go back to His then W to R but told Anne he really only loved her but told his then W he loved her and they had sex well then he would have(If I read correctly, in Ann e's eyes) cheated on Anne meaning mm didn't love her when he was going through R with his then W...

But now I read that with much work, patience, forgiveness etc... that her now H actually Does love her (Anne)... Soooo much craziness to make what I consider (the A) to have to be a "gray" topic into a black-n-white topic that suits...

I feel very happy to be long past this head spinning part to see that my H did love me, but was in love with himself to the point he thought he could just help himself to the exOW and hurt her too without so much of an ILY or even a thank you parting gift. .

 

Then again, I may be able to see past my own beliefs to at least understand different perspectives even if I don't agree*

 

Loved this! And yes, splitting hairs was how i put it but basically my head was spinning too!!!!

[ComingInHot]

Great minds Fluttershy**

[Anne Boleyn]

It reads all so confusing right now! On one hand, I "get" what Anne is trying to communicate. She sounds quite resolute or black-n-white on her belief. Yet I read if that belief is true and her then MM now H Did go back to His then W to R but told Anne he really only loved her but told his then W he loved her and they had sex well then he would have(If I read correctly, in Ann e's eyes) cheated on Anne meaning mm didn't love her when he was going through R with his then W...

 

No, he broke up with me and ended things. He could have told her he did or didn't love her, that he did or didn't love me, whatever he wanted, but I wouldn't view what he did during that R as "cheating." We were broken up. So he didn't owe me anything during that period, whatever did or didn't happen, real or imagined.

 

During break itself, he did say that he was going back out of obligation and not out of love, that he didn't love her, and that he only loved me. Because he was breaking up with me, not cheating, but breaking up, I said and thought that he was full of it. He would tell you differently, but I firmly believe he didn't love me in the way that I'd define as love. I told him that then, he knows it now. I think he was sparing my feelings, I think he thought I wanted to hear it, and I think saying it made him feel better. I think he may have even believed it then, though I think now he'd agree that while he did love me, but not like he did when he said he was really ready to leave and divorce.

 

But now I read that with much work, patience, forgiveness etc... that her now H actually Does love her (Anne)... Soooo much craziness to make what I consider (the A) to have to be a "gray" topic into a black-n-white topic that suits...

 

No, I don't think it's grey at all... He didn't love her, he said so, but even if he hadn't, you don't cheat on somebody you love. He said he did love me, but I don't think he got to that point until he was ready to seperate and divorce. Before that, I have no doubt he cared for me very much, but without the commitment, what we had wasn't really love. NC and breakups don't happen when you love somebody, which was our case. Cheating on somebody doesn't mean you love them, which was his and BS's case.

 

But if you really want to talk differing ideals of what love is, his BS thought that as long as he was with her, like living in the same house, he loved her. He may not act on it, realize it, or tell her, but she "knew" that love was there and it was only time before it came back. His being there was enough for her that she even said that as long as he goes to bed every night under their roof, she didn't care where he was or who he was with (me) during the day.

 

That was love for her, or at least enough that she thought it could come back. Most would disagree.

 

So as I said, maybe unfaithfulness with true repentance after being caught and an effort to restore it is what is termed love for some, and so it's legitimately possible that one can love the person they're lying to and cheating on.

 

Not so for me.

 

I feel very happy to be long past this head spinning part to see that my H did love me, but was in love with himself to the point he thought he could just help himself to the exOW and hurt her too without so much of an ILY or even a thank you parting gift. .

 

Then again, I may be able to see past my own beliefs to at least understand different perspectives even if I don't agree*

 

I actually conceded that point long ago, and re-explained it above. For some reason, to prove that I must be wrong, we're diving into my background and re-contexting what I said for that smoking gun "a ha" moment that somehow mean when I say it's not enough for me, I don't actually mean it's not enough for me.

[Anne Boleyn]

You anne bolynn seem to like to split hairs to make your your point or defend your beliefs. That entire post was splitting hairs.

 

No... It was hardly splitting hairs. You dove into my past posts to find the smoking gun that "proves" I really don't mean that people who love somebody don't cheat on them and misunderstood what I said or made assumptions based off of lack of information. I clarified, and because it doesn't gel with what you assumed I said and thus supports your belief that I don't mean what I say, I'm splitting hairs.

 

I said from the very beginning what my belief was to your question relating to me and my experience. I said I didn't think he loved me until we'd made a commitment to each other. You said what if he did X, Y and Z, and I said by chance he did, and at the time I wouldn't have said he was in love with me, a view consistant with my statement that I don't believe if you're cheating that you love the person you're cheating on. I'm not sure why you didn't take that at face value. And I'm not sure why when you get the wrong impression from old posts about what my life or feelings is that, when I explain what was going on to show that, again, my view is consistent, I'm splitting hairs.

 

I give little thought answers with a hypothetical twist. After all a good chunk of people beliee they will never cheat and then do. And a good chunck of people believe they would never be involved with a married person and then are.

If you give little thought to answers with a hypothetical twist, why would you ask me what you thought was a hypothetical question? And why, when I say it isn't hypothetical and here's what I thought, wouldn't you take it at face value?

 

I think a lot of it is that some people are desperate to prove that a WS can love the person they're cheating on because they have a lot to lose to believe otherwise. It'd mean the very foundation for a lot of people's R's is flawed and broken. So I get it, I really do.

 

But when I say "my definition of love is such that you can't really love me if you're lying to my face and having an affair," I really, truly and honestly mean that if you're cheating on me, you don't really love me. No hypothetical situations or variables, case closed.

 

If my husband, who I believe with every ounce of my being, who I firmly believe would never, ever cheat on me at all, ever, came to me and said "I love you more than anything, but I've been having an affair. I don't love her, I love you, I'm sorry" he could say he did it because he was drunk, lonely, bored, she was pretty, she tricked him, it just happened, or martians came and brainwashed him into doing it... No matter what, I'd say "you are full of crap. If you loved me you wouldn't be cheating on me, and all that time I thought you loved me, I was wrong. It was a nice lie to cover the affair and you're telling it to me now to soften the blow." He could cry, beg, plead, shake, hang his head in a toilet, apologize, give me money, buy me jewelry and flowers, and not a single ounce of it would make me think "gee, he does love me." I'd think it's an actor putting on a good show, a liar telling me another lie, a guy trying to make me feel better, somebody trying to lessen guilt, or one of many things said to salvage what I am now saying is broken. But not for a second would I say to myself "here's a partner who loves his partner."

 

Now, maybe we can fix it, maybe we can R, maybe things will be great between us and we all get past us. But never, ever for a second will I say that he was a man who loved me and happened to have an affair. I'd say he fell out of love with me, or he wasn't in love with me during the affair and loves me now. But not that he was a conflicted guy who loved me and had an affair.

 

That is my definitive, 100%, answer that was true yesterday, is true today, and will be true tomorrow. The only exception, and I mean the only exception, is if he is forced into something without consent. At which case he's a victim and we're involving police. And I mean actually forced with total lack of consent, not the quasi "it wasn't me because she did X, Y, and Z and I couldn't resist" excuse.

 

Hypotheticals and "i would do y if x happened" mean nothing until x happened and y is actually carried out.

Which means when I tell you that your story wasn't a hypothetical and was actually true for me, you can accept how I say I felt about it and how I feel now about it face value.

 

We can dismiss what I say with the whole "she'll feel differently if it's her" rigamaroll, but the truth is, I've been there, done that, above is how I felt then, here's how I feel now. It meshes with my viewpoint of love for me which is you don't cheat if you love somebody and if you love somebody you don't cheat.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Anne Boleyn

[Iguanna]

I'm so frustrated about this matter. Yesterday I found out something that made me really angry and sad. My cousin got married almost 2 years ago with this good guy who loves her, they have a sweet kid together and they seem so in love, they always talk on the phone when they are away, share everything, he is a great father, the kids worships him etc. My cousin found out some time ago that her husband has accepted friend requests on facebook from some hot chicks (don't know where and how he found them) and he had deleted some of the conversations he had with them. My cousin made a fake profile, befriended him and started talking dirty to him. He replied and told her he is married with a kid but she said she doesn't mind and she wants to meet him. He told her he would go to her town in a few days so they'd meet. My cousin didn't have the patience to wait to meet him like the fake chic so she confronted him on the phone and he had the nerve to tell her that what she did (make a fake profile and play him) was bad and she could go take her stuff, leave the kid (!!!!!) and go away. I'm so angry at him! All the family considered him a great guy who adored her. Why the hell do men act like this? The most amazing part was that one day my cousin and her husband were on the phone, he was talking like usual, and at the same time he was typing on fb with the "fake" chic (his wife). She asked him "honey are you ok? you sound weird", and he said "everything is ok". I mean, what a nerve! I don't know what will happen from now on...

[ladydesigner]

NC and breakups don't happen when you love somebody, which was our case. Cheating on somebody doesn't mean you love them, which was his and BS's case.

 

I totally agree!

[Owl]

I'm so frustrated about this matter. Yesterday I found out something that made me really angry and sad. My cousin got married almost 2 years ago with this good guy who loves her, they have a sweet kid together and they seem so in love, they always talk on the phone when they are away, share everything, he is a great father, the kids worships him etc. My cousin found out some time ago that her husband has accepted friend requests on facebook from some hot chicks (don't know where and how he found them) and he had deleted some of the conversations he had with them. My cousin made a fake profile, befriended him and started talking dirty to him. He replied and told her he is married with a kid but she said she doesn't mind and she wants to meet him. He told her he would go to her town in a few days so they'd meet. My cousin didn't have the patience to wait to meet him like the fake chic so she confronted him on the phone and he had the nerve to tell her that what she did (make a fake profile and play him) was bad and she could go take her stuff, leave the kid (!!!!!) and go away. I'm so angry at him! All the family considered him a great guy who adored her. Why the hell do men act like this? The most amazing part was that one day my cousin and her husband were on the phone, he was talking like usual, and at the same time he was typing on fb with the "fake" chic (his wife). She asked him "honey are you ok? you sound weird", and he said "everything is ok". I mean, what a nerve! I don't know what will happen from now on...

 

See my previous post.

 

He did it because he thought he could get some 'strange', without his wife finding out and without suffering repercussions for doing so.