My OW meltdowns

[SolG]

Hi GG and gettingstronger. Thank you for your compassion and thoughts.

 

Correct, before this A I didn't even know I could be really jealous. In fact, I wasn't for the first two years or so of the A either. I think that this is because--despite having dated and been in a marriage before--I don't think I have ever invested this much emotionally in a relationship. In terms of the meltdowns and associated emotion... I guess I've never felt this way, because I've never felt this way. If that makes sense :-/

 

On the obsessive front though, that has always been there. It's just never applied to a relationship before. Anything that has ever interested me has been researched to the 'nth degree. I do have an insatiable thirst for knowledge and understanding. This has generally been to my advantage; particularly with reference to work. But I'm finding not so much in the A context. I have now read so many relationship, human sexuality and therapy text books that I could sit exams. I love theory; but my practical application leaves a lot to be desired.

 

And yes, the duality is what is killing me! More and more. I do want to be the primary woman in his life. He says he is truly mine (and me his) more than he has ever been to any other in the emotional and intellectual and physical sense... again and again. But I keep looking for the evidence. For the truth and verification. Anything incongruent jars me.

 

I know it's unhealthy and that I can't sustain this long term. I'm not made for this. I suck at the other woman gig! We have set a deadline of Jan 2015. I guess we'll see.

[Got it]

Hi GG and gettingstronger. Thank you for your compassion and thoughts.

 

Correct, before this A I didn't even know I could be really jealous. In fact, I wasn't for the first two years or so of the A either. I think that this is because--despite having dated and been in a marriage before--I don't think I have ever invested this much emotionally in a relationship. In terms of the meltdowns and associated emotion... I guess I've never felt this way, because I've never felt this way. If that makes sense :-/

 

On the obsessive front though, that has always been there. It's just never applied to a relationship before. Anything that has ever interested me has been researched to the 'nth degree. I do have an insatiable thirst for knowledge and understanding. This has generally been to my advantage; particularly with reference to work. But I'm finding not so much in the A context. I have now read so many relationship, human sexuality and therapy text books that I could sit exams. I love theory; but my practical application leaves a lot to be desired.

 

And yes, the duality is what is killing me! More and more. I do want to be the primary woman in his life. He says he is truly mine (and me his) more than he has ever been to any other in the emotional and intellectual and physical sense... again and again. But I keep looking for the evidence. For the truth and verification. Anything incongruent jars me.

 

I know it's unhealthy and that I can't sustain this long term. I'm not made for this. I suck at the other woman gig! We have set a deadline of Jan 2015. I guess we'll see.

 

Sol - that is key and what you need to communicate with him. It is okay that things have changed for you and you need him to go one way or the other. You seem to be waiting for the other shoe to drop as a way to steel yourself from any potential pain but anticipating it at the first whiff. I get it, I do that as well in my life.

 

I know you have a deadline of January 2015, are there any other steps, within 2014 that will show you steps to that 2015 date? They are helpful to have to continue to allow you to evaluate if things are going in that direction or not.

[gettingstronger]

On the obsessive front though, that has always been there. It's just never applied to a relationship before. Anything that has ever interested me has been researched to the 'nth degree. I do have an insatiable thirst for knowledge and understanding. This has generally been to my advantage; particularly with reference to work. But I'm finding not so much in the A context.

 

 

YES! Me too- for hours I would dwell on the why- I wanted every detail, I wanted to find something to that would make all of the pieces fit together so I could figure it all out-I spent hours going over the phone bill comparing minutes spent- I drove myself nuts-I finally had to resign myself to the abstract of "is this how I want to feel about my marriage"- it took a long time-

Also, I had no one really to talk to about it- I love to hash things out, bounce stuff off of people but could not in this situation because I knew I would be subject to their bias (most people who have never been in this situation would say kick him out-its more complicated than that!)

So, I will say what I tell my friend that is having marital problems right now-its not that I don't like your MM, its that I don't like the way your relationship makes you feel- theres a big difference there- I obviously have opinions on you being in an A, but thats not really the point and its not helpful, what I can say, is I don't like the way the relationship makes you feel and act-

 

Good luck to you!

[Got it]

On the obsessive front though, that has always been there. It's just never applied to a relationship before. Anything that has ever interested me has been researched to the 'nth degree. I do have an insatiable thirst for knowledge and understanding. This has generally been to my advantage; particularly with reference to work. But I'm finding not so much in the A context.

 

 

YES! Me too- for hours I would dwell on the why- I wanted every detail, I wanted to find something to that would make all of the pieces fit together so I could figure it all out-I spent hours going over the phone bill comparing minutes spent- I drove myself nuts-I finally had to resign myself to the abstract of "is this how I want to feel about my marriage"- it took a long time-

Also, I had no one really to talk to about it- I love to hash things out, bounce stuff off of people but could not in this situation because I knew I would be subject to their bias (most people who have never been in this situation would say kick him out-its more complicated than that!)

So, I will say what I tell my friend that is having marital problems right now-its not that I don't like your MM, its that I don't like the way your relationship makes you feel- theres a big difference there- I obviously have opinions on you being in an A, but thats not really the point and its not helpful, what I can say, is I don't like the way the relationship makes you feel and act-

 

Good luck to you!

 

Awesome post gettingstronger!

 

That really is the crux of everything.

[Charlie Harper]

Never prioritize someone, who considers you an option...

 

Short and to the point . End it, or tell him (like that Jerry Mcguire movie) SHOW ME THE MONEY...

[Got it]

Never prioritize someone, who considers you an option...

 

Short and to the point . End it, or tell him (like that Jerry Mcguire movie) SHOW ME THE MONEY...

 

So . . . she is asking to be bought . . . .

[Confusion_Reigns]

Just my take on it

 

First, there are no rules for any of it. None, nada, zilch. No rules. Each situation and each relationship is a standalone which either survives and thrives on its own or not.

 

I’d just gently suggest that if you truly want to be in this relationship with him then kick out the other person in your head. Focus on you and on him. Figure out if you have faith in him and if you have trust in him….and always trust your gut, if something isn’t right then it’s wrong. No other way around that.

 

Also, please spend some time peeling off all the labels that other’s place on you, define your own self as makes sense to you. Ow, bs, ws…etc, all just labels that really say nothing about who you truly are inside. Honor who you are as a person.

 

Sending you my best.

[jellybean89]

So you are going to go through this drama for 9 more months? Why?

 

Did you ever think that he and his wife may have another email account?

 

Did you ever think that he has another OW and they have a 'secret' email account?

 

Your obsessive need to know what he and his wife are communicating is obsessive and controlling, IMHO. It isn't normal and you can say you need to analyze everything; but would you ever think it is okay to have access to your supervisors email? Or your best girlfriend's email?

 

You are obsessed with him and no matter how much you insert yourself into their marriage, nothing is changing. He is still married and you are his OW. Its been this way for years and he has made no action to change that, right? So what are you getting out of this?

[SolG]

Hi Got It. Thank you for your input. I think I have been communicating my inability to deal with the duality to him; but incredibly emotively and dysfunctionally because I haven't really had a good enough understanding to do so assertively and coherently. I do agree with you that we need to negotiate milestones towards the end state. And their achievement needs to be demonstrable (thousands may not, but I do need this). As Dan Savage is fond of saying, in some circumstances for some people it is important to 'trust... but verify'. These are conversations I need to initiate sooner rather than later.

 

Gettingstronger, thank you also. Again! You really get where I'm coming from. I too have spent time poring over extraneous detail and agonising over the most trivial of aberrations trying to find the meaning. With the end result of no further enlightenment, but rather just mental and emotional exhaustion. I am so glad you are no longer wasting your energy in this way. I think your perspective is so healthy and something I would like to emulate. Best of luck with your reconciliation.

 

Thank you Confusion Reigns. I believe that everything you wrote is completely applicable to me. Yes, there are no rules per se. Just personal principles and standards that vary from person to person and context to context. And sometimes good people choose to do bad things :-/ In a related sense, it is a good reminder you give to consider the power of languaging and labels. In an A circumstance, it is easy to let the OW label with all its associated negative connotations and folklore affect self esteem and allow elements of self loathing to creep in. For me anyway. Thank you for the reminder that I am more than that; much more.

 

So you are going to go through this drama for 9 more months? Why?

 

Because I think we deserve this chance.

 

Did you ever think that he and his wife may have another email account?

 

Nope.

 

Did you ever think that he has another OW and they have a 'secret' email account?

 

Nope.

 

Your obsessive need to know what he and his wife are communicating is obsessive and controlling, IMHO. It isn't normal and you can say you need to analyze everything; but would you ever think it is okay to have access to your supervisors email? Or your best girlfriend's email?

 

Acknowledge the obsessive, controliness here. Actually have had access to bosses' email accounts before; and they mine. Sometimes desirable due to specific job and schedules. But never had the need with a friend. But when I was married, my then H and I both had full access to each others' email and social media, etc. Not for monitoring purposes, but so we had each others' back for bills and urgent comms, etc. Didn't realise this wasn't the norm in most relationships :-/

 

You are obsessed with him and no matter how much you insert yourself into their marriage, nothing is changing. He is still married and you are his OW. Its been this way for years and he has made no action to change that, right? So what are you getting out of this?

 

Yes, and yes. However, things are changing and already were before our A. It is clearly evident in the pattern and content of their communication over time. However, the pace and specific nature of the changes don't necessarily accord with the expectations that I had built in my head. I guess that's the problem with expectations not clearly shared; it makes it difficult for others to try and meet them. Something I'm addressing now.

 

What am I getting out of this? Despite the pain, there has been a lot of good stuff between us. At this stage the latter still outweighs the former in my eyes. But I know it won't forever under the current circumstances.

 

 

Interestingly, I haven't checked the email accounts since I started this thread. Actually feels heaps better not doing it. I'm going to take a leaf out of gettingstronger's book and stop obsessessing over detail like this. There are enough other things in an A situation that can evoke negativity without actively seeking it out. I told MM a bit about this thread this morning. And we'll chat more about it.

 

Thanks LSers!

[whichwayisup]

I know I can get off at any time. But I choose not to. Suppose that means I should stop whining about my meltdowns then I guess!

 

This is pretty much what it boils down to. It's one thing to vent it out at times, it's another to be obsessive and go through his emails, demand to know all conversations that go on etc between him and his wife or what goes on in their marriage.

 

The affair itself has made you into someone you're probably not usually like. That jealously and deep seeded fear and need to try to control him IS because the situation and of course him, makes you feel insecure. everything you two have together is based in an affair setting and it can be taken away as soon as there's a Dday.

 

Your A is killing you inside. Ask yourself how happy you really are, how often are you in tears, how often do you feel anxious and blah?

 

You say you won't be in an A a year from now, so why not just try to detach bit by bit each month? Rely on him less...Focus on you, your life, friends and family more than thinking about him, his wife/marriage and what goes on between them. It's like you have way too much time on your hands to invest in investigating him like you have been.

 

Glad to read since you've started this thread you haven't peaked in the email account. That IS a habit that needs to be broken and you're half way there. You feel better!! So, keep going forward and do not let yourself 'go' there again. This is taking control over your own emotions and yourself. Before you are/were letting the A and him control you. Stand up and just accept that there are things out of your control and let it go. If you can do this I think you'll feel better as time goes on. Get busier and stop investing everything into him. He may be investing into you as well but he still is very married and living life with his wife. So, live your life too!

 

I hope by summer you can breath easier, feel less anxiety and be more detached from him, enough that you're more at peace and not feeling the need to have talks with him about everything so much. That is exhausting and draining for you both.

[Got it]

Hi Got It. Thank you for your input. I think I have been communicating my inability to deal with the duality to him; but incredibly emotively and dysfunctionally because I haven't really had a good enough understanding to do so assertively and coherently. I do agree with you that we need to negotiate milestones towards the end state. And their achievement needs to be demonstrable (thousands may not, but I do need this). As Dan Savage is fond of saying, in some circumstances for some people it is important to 'trust... but verify'. These are conversations I need to initiate sooner rather than later.

 

Gettingstronger, thank you also. Again! You really get where I'm coming from. I too have spent time poring over extraneous detail and agonising over the most trivial of aberrations trying to find the meaning. With the end result of no further enlightenment, but rather just mental and emotional exhaustion. I am so glad you are no longer wasting your energy in this way. I think your perspective is so healthy and something I would like to emulate. Best of luck with your reconciliation.

 

Thank you Confusion Reigns. I believe that everything you wrote is completely applicable to me. Yes, there are no rules per se. Just personal principles and standards that vary from person to person and context to context. And sometimes good people choose to do bad things :-/ In a related sense, it is a good reminder you give to consider the power of languaging and labels. In an A circumstance, it is easy to let the OW label with all its associated negative connotations and folklore affect self esteem and allow elements of self loathing to creep in. For me anyway. Thank you for the reminder that I am more than that; much more.

 

 

 

Interestingly, I haven't checked the email accounts since I started this thread. Actually feels heaps better not doing it. I'm going to take a leaf out of gettingstronger's book and stop obsessessing over detail like this. There are enough other things in an A situation that can evoke negativity without actively seeking it out. I told MM a bit about this thread this morning. And we'll chat more about it.

 

Thanks LSers!

 

Sol - obviously my view point differs that others. I don't believe there are any stipulations on what can be asked for in a relationship as you two set up your expectation agreement. In fact my husband/MM and I had a clear discussion that I recapped in writing to make sure we both understood the expectations of each party at the beginning of the relationship. We explained what our "end goal" was, the plans to get there, expectations in the mean time including everything from communication, frequency of interaction, etc. I am a very logical person so wanted to make sure that there wasn't any misunderstanding by either party and the ability to say "I didn't know" months down the pike.

 

That didn't mean that there couldn't be changes or addendums to the agreement based on changes but they would need to be acknowledged, addressed, and agreed upon. I also stipulated that while I was agreeing to the affair that each day it is being reconsidered and assessed and that I had the right to renege at any point. I had dates down as a barometer for me and knowing that since this was a short term solution (I was not interested in being in an affair to be in one nor in one forever with him) that he needed to make changes in a reasonable amount of time.

 

The affair was an accommodation for him. So he needed to act accordingly and if that meant jumping through extra hoops that was on him. I was not going to accommodate any further than that and so had a high bar. I did not espouse the belief that being his OW meant I had to accept anything less than what I wanted. If he was going to be a very lucky man to have a wife and a girlfriend than he better appreciate and act accordingly.

 

While I didn't monitor his emails I did have access to them. During the affair I had little interest in their interaction but I also didn't have any major fears that it was more than what he said/showed. But we were very focused on working on our relationship and recognizing the importance of an integrated and transparent relationship. So through S/D through today we are very transparent with each other and acknowledge and address our old habits, actions, and coping mechanisms. We both were in IC during the affair and CC after he separated.

 

Actions, not words, were of paramount importance to me and that is what I focused on. Speak your mind, get his thoughts and then look at how you two address it. Do not allow him to minimize or manipulate to shut you down and call him out on it. But also understand that you have to be careful what you ask for. So if you are getting too much information that is doing more harm than good either stop it or readjust your expectations or acceptance. Every day you are deciding is this a good relationship for you. If he doesn't realize that then he is a fool. You are not a guarantee and shouldn't be assumed to be.

[cocorico]

Why he ever gave complete access to his stuff is beyond me. Why you feel the need to know the details of their marriage is beyond me. It is NONE of your business. You are not married to him. You took on the position of OW WILLINGLY. Either accept this or find someone that is AVAILABLE.

 

Nope, there is no reason at all that you have to accept that. Your R and its boundaries are between you and your lover to negotiate. It is not for anyone else to tell you what is and is not acceptable. You are consenting adults and you get to decide the parameters of what you accept and demand as a couple.

 

I see nothing at all wrong with him giving you full,access to his stuff if that is what you want and he agrees. I was my fMM's primary R during the A and I also had full access. In fact, during the separation and D all his emails from the BW would forward to me and I would screen them and forward on the relevant bits and delete the rest. How couples choose to organise their communication and information flow in their R is for them to decide.

[HermioneG]

Nope, there is no reason at all that you have to accept that. Your R and its boundaries are between you and your lover to negotiate. It is not for anyone else to tell you what is and is not acceptable. You are consenting adults and you get to decide the parameters of what you accept and demand as a couple.

 

I see nothing at all wrong with him giving you full,access to his stuff if that is what you want and he agrees. I was my fMM's primary R during the A and I also had full access. In fact, during the separation and D all his emails from the BW would forward to me and I would screen them and forward on the relevant bits and delete the rest. How couples choose to organise their communication and information flow in their R is for them to decide.

 

I am rarely horrified by what I read, but I am horrified that he a) gave you access to his wife's communications, and b) that you thought it was an appropriate boundary for you to cross.

 

Have your affair. Make the parameters between you TWO whatever you choose. But you do not have the right to violate the betrayed spouse's privacy in that manner and further than the harm you are already causing.

 

( I realize you now say you are married to this man, so I am clear on where you state you are claiming today in your relationship ).

 

As you said yourself- your relationship is yours to negotiate. As was his relationship to his spouse. I cannot comprehend not being able to see that, not can I comprehend the blasé attitude with which your relay your supposed further violation of her privacy.

 

It's not okay. For any of you. For all three of you. It screams dysfunction in your relationship. Utter lack of boundaries or even a sense of right towards another human being.

 

I see your post as a cautionary tale to the OP. I am glad you posted it. It's quite informative.

[sunburned]

I am a xMOW myself, but I would never ask for access to my MOM's enail or cell phone and certainly not if it included correspondence with his W. I felt bad enough for what I was doing. But what you and he are doing is an enormous violation of privacy -- her privacy. If he wants to share his heart and any other organs with another, that's his choice, albeit a poor one. But he has no right to share something personal of his wife's. Her words, her voice are very personal.

 

If he has told you he's leaving his wife, then you figure out an action plan with milestones. Leave it to him how to meet them. You don't need to "check up" on what he and his W say to each other. All that matters is action he is taking to leave his M. You have been with this guy for 3.5 years. He doesn't appear to be a man of action. How much longer are you planning to give him?

 

How much time you must have on your hands to pick apart texts b/w a man and his wife! You need a hobby or perhaps a more challenging career so you don't have to spend time on this. I'm sorry, OP, but this behavior is really sick and your AP is without any moral compass.

[cocorico]

I am rarely horrified by what I read, but I am horrified that he a) gave you access to his wife's communications, and b) that you thought it was an appropriate boundary for you to cross.

 

Have your affair. Make the parameters between you TWO whatever you choose. But you do not have the right to violate the betrayed spouse's privacy in that manner and further than the harm you are already causing.

 

( I realize you now say you are married to this man, so I am clear on where you state you are claiming today in your relationship ).

 

As you said yourself- your relationship is yours to negotiate. As was his relationship to his spouse. I cannot comprehend not being able to see that, not can I comprehend the blasé attitude with which your relay your supposed further violation of her privacy.

 

It's not okay. For any of you. For all three of you. It screams dysfunction in your relationship. Utter lack of boundaries or even a sense of right towards another human being.

 

I see your post as a cautionary tale to the OP. I am glad you posted it. It's quite informative.

 

 

Why do you find it so horrifying that someone should choose to be completely transparent and open with the person they love? I find it rather ironic that when a BW demands all access to the private communications between a WS and his love, this is considered admirable; but if the WS offers such access to his love, the response is horror.

 

In both cases, a boundary is being transgressed and privacy breached. In both cases the WS is offering such transparency as evidence of his openness to his primary partner, and of his commitment to the sustainability and longevity of that R. The only difference is some people see it as unacceptable when it is offered to someone from the "other" group.

[spookysonata]

The only difference is some people see it as unacceptable when it is offered to someone from the "other" group.

 

And that's the crux of the matter. The "otherness" is the reason it's unacceptable.

A married person's primary partner is ipso facto his spouse. If he wants it to be someone else? Get a divorce. But as long as you're the outsider in their marriage, you aren't entitled to see their private correspondance.

OP, would you be shocked and horrified if you learned that his wife was privy to all of the communications between you and him?

[spookysonata]

Also, if his wife knows and is totally chill, I see no problem. It's the fact of her privacy WITH HER HUSBAND being breached without her knowledge and consent that is offensive. Those who insist that it's okay to do this....well, smh.

[HermioneG]

Why do you find it so horrifying that someone should choose to be completely transparent and open with the person they love? I find it rather ironic that when a BW demands all access to the private communications between a WS and his love, this is considered admirable; but if the WS offers such access to his love, the response is horror.

 

In both cases, a boundary is being transgressed and privacy breached. In both cases the WS is offering such transparency as evidence of his openness to his primary partner, and of his commitment to the sustainability and longevity of that R. The only difference is some people see it as unacceptable when it is offered to someone from the "other" group.

 

It is horrifying because I care about people other than myself, and wish to move through this world without harming others.

 

Seriously.

 

( and by the way? Sleeping with someone else's spouse doesn't make you a primary partner. After the divorce, yes. Before? Not a chance. To even say that aloud is another example of disordered thinking.)

Edited March 9, 2014 by HermioneG

[cocorico]

And that's the crux of the matter. The "otherness" is the reason it's unacceptable.

A married person's primary partner is ipso facto his spouse. If he wants it to be someone else? Get a divorce. But as long as you're the outsider in their marriage, you aren't entitled to see their private correspondance.

OP, would you be shocked and horrified if you learned that his wife was privy to all of the communications between you and him?

 

I am his W.

 

Would I have cared if she'd seen the communication between us? not remotely. She might have learned something about what a proper R looks like.

[cocorico]

It is horrifying because I care about people other than myself, and wish to move through this world without harming others.

 

Seriously.

 

( and by the way? Sleeping with someone else's spouse doesn't make you a primary partner. After the divorce, yes. Before? Not a chance. To even say that aloud is another example of disordered thinking.)

 

Primary R is not determined by whose name is on a paper. It's determined by how one is treated. The one who is respected, loved, is spent time with, spends time with his extended family, is part of his friendship networks and who is his partner at public events vs the vestigial presence who has a bedroom in the same house where they spend no time together, communicate by notes on the fridge, have nothing in common but their offspring... I'd say it's pretty clear which is primary. Even if wishful thinking dictates otherwise.

 

If my H checked out of the M, spending his every waking moment avoiding me, investing his energy, emotion, time and money in someone else and actively building a future with her while waiting out time so that he could be free of me, I would certainly not consider myself his primary partner! I'm amazed any woman is prepared to settle for so little just to be able to call herself a W.

[spookysonata]

I am his W.

 

Would I have cared if she'd seen the communication between us? not remotely. She might have learned something about what a proper R looks like.

 

I was addressing the OP.

And what you write doesn't answer any of the questions I posed.

If your husband got a new OW would you feel violated if he shared your communications with her?

[spookysonata]

Primary R is not determined by whose name is on a paper. It's determined by how one is treated. The one who is respected, loved, is spent time with, spends time with his extended family, is part of his friendship networks and who is his partner at public events vs the vestigial presence who has a bedroom in the same house where they spend no time together, communicate by notes on the fridge, have nothing in common but their offspring... I'd say it's pretty clear which is primary. Even if wishful thinking dictates otherwise.

 

If my H checked out of the M, spending his every waking moment avoiding me, investing his energy, emotion, time and money in someone else and actively building a future with her while waiting out time so that he could be free of me, I would certainly not consider myself his primary partner! I'm amazed any woman is prepared to settle for so little just to be able to call herself a W.

 

Then why bother even getting married if you have decided someone else us to be your primary partner? Why not just get a divorce instead of sneaking around on your spouse to be with your "love", your "primary partner"?

Really, your logic is...flawed, to put it kindly

[cocorico]

Then why bother even getting married if you have decided someone else us to be your primary partner? Why not just get a divorce instead of sneaking around on your spouse to be with your "love", your "primary partner"?

Really, your logic is...flawed, to put it kindly

 

Nobody gets M deciding someone else should be their primary partner. But after decades of neglect and abuse, it's no surprise if they fall in love with someone who treats them decently. And, if they are noble to D immediately, those two Rs may overlap - the vestigial M and the growing love R.

 

If you find that logic flawed, you may want to spend some more time around real people, because that is how many real people think.

[cocorico]

I was addressing the OP.

And what you write doesn't answer any of the questions I posed.

 

That was the only question posed. "If he wants it to be someone else?" Is not a question, just a poorly punctuated statement.

 

If your husband got a new OW would you feel violated if he shared your communications with her?

 

No. I'd be happy for anyone to see how much we loved each other. There is nothing in our communications that I am ashamed or embarrassed about.

[spookysonata]

Nobody gets M deciding someone else should be their primary partner. But after decades of neglect and abuse, it's no surprise if they fall in love with someone who treats them decently. And, if they are noble to D immediately, those two Rs may overlap - the vestigial M and the growing love R.

 

If you find that logic flawed, you may want to spend some more time around real people, because that is how many real people think.

 

Most of the real people I know find divorce preferable to wasting away in a neglectful, abusive marriage for decades. See, because then when the kindly, loving saint in shining armour rides up to the rescue, they are free to actually be in a relationship with them!