"The Sisterhood" Ignored or Unheard Of?

[cocorico]

And this proves that when a class of people, in this case women, start to make inroads in equality, they begin to adopt the worst traits of those in power, men.

 

They grow more ambitions, competitive, more promiscuous, more self and goal-oriented.

 

 

Oy Gott - so being ambitious, competitive, goal-directed and enjoying one's sexuality are now "the worst traits" ??? Has feminism achieved nothing?

 

I raised my daughter t be proud of her sexuality, however she chose to define and celebrate it. The number of partners she chooses to have in her enjoyment of sex is nobody's business but her own. The same for my son. Controlling a woman's sexuality through labels like "promiscuous" is oppressive and demeaning and as reactionary as denying a woman the right to vote - or more so.

 

Likewise, I raised her to be proud of her abilities and achievements, not to stand back shyly hoping to be noticed but to go out and work for he opportunities that she wants. Why is competition and ambition lauded in a man, but denigrated in a woman?

 

I find such attitudes mind-boggling in people who claim to be supportive of woman. "Yes, sure we'll support women - provided they look and think like us, and are happy in the kitchen letting the world be run by their great hunky husbands." Enjoy helping each other mop up your children's sick, ladies, while the rest of us who are not embarrassed to be ambitious or goal directed go out and change the world.

[rumbleseat]

Nope, haven't experienced that. Perhaps it doesn't exist outside S&TC or whatever celluloid world created the notion? Blaming those of us who grew up and live beyond the influence of Hollywood for "not understanding" some North American artifice seems a little parochial to me, but I guess it's just another way of delineating who is in and who is out of The Club.

 

Nor do I think it bears the remotest resemblance to "humanising the planet" if its raison d'être is the exclusion of half of humanity by virtue of the accident of their gender, and a further proportion who reject the discriminatory premise required for inclusion.

 

Actually, the concept of sisterhood existed long before any sort of mass media. Many matriarchal cultures had it as a premise of their existence. In plenty of cultures, the women banded together to help support each other through life changing events such as puberty, childbirth, menopause, etc. . They also supported each other in other ways, as this was vital to their survival, humans being a social species and all.

 

Whether or not this applies to today's society is questionable. Mass media tends to portray much more of a " me vs. we" attitude for both genders, which is unfortunate.

[gettingstronger]

We will never have TRUE equality until people stop defining a person's emotional, moral, physiological and mental capabilities being tied to gender.

 

 

But the truth is we are different based on gender- acknowledging this does not mean we have to be unequal-equality is not based on ignoring what is a biological, physiological and physical fact-

Example- I teach- the goal of a quality education for both genders is the goal (equality in education) but boys and girls learn differently-if I taught them both the same I would do neither justice-research and data clearly show that they process differently and have different needs-

You are looking at the negative side of gender differences-instead look at the positive sides and the sisterhood or girl code is an empowerment, not an insult-

[rumbleseat]

 

I find such attitudes mind-boggling in people who claim to be supportive of woman. "Yes, sure we'll support women - provided they look and think like us, and are happy in the kitchen letting the world be run by their great hunky husbands." Enjoy helping each other mop up your children's sick, ladies, while the rest of us who are not embarrassed to be ambitious or goal directed go out and change the world.

 

If this attitude is an example of how such women are changed the world then I don't want any part of it. It's nasty.

 

It's fine to be ambitious and goal oriented. I don't think anyone is saying women shouldn't be. What they are saying is that, whatever your gender may be, male female or transgender, stepping all over others on your climb to the top is a pretty cr@ppy way to act. One can work hard, achieve goals and be ambitious without having to be an azzhat to everyone else.

 

As for changing the world. Perhaps these sick cleaning ladies (as you refer to them) are changing the world by raising their children to not be jerks to everyone else.

 

Food for thought, n'est pas?

[gettingstronger]

Enjoy helping each other mop up your children's sick, ladies, while the rest of us who are not embarrassed to be ambitious or goal directed go out and change the world.

Edited March 7, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[rumbleseat]

We will never have TRUE equality until people stop defining a person's emotional, moral, physiological and mental capabilities being tied to gender.

 

 

But the truth is we are different based on gender- acknowledging this does not mean we have to be unequal-equality is not based on ignoring what is a biological, physiological and physical fact-

Example- I teach- the goal of a quality education for both genders is the goal (equality in education) but boys and girls learn differently-if I taught them both the same I would do neither justice-research and data clearly show that they process differently and have different needs-

You are looking at the negative side of gender differences-instead look at the positive sides and the sisterhood or girl code is an empowerment, not an insult-

 

I like this, as boys and girls do learn differently, and educating them based on the way they learn just makes sense.

 

When it comes to empowerment, I would personally like to see a time come when society empowers everyone, no matter what their gender. I would also like to see it where people's can achieve success in their career and life without it having to being on the back of anyone else.

[Got it]

We will never have TRUE equality until people stop defining a person's emotional, moral, physiological and mental capabilities being tied to gender.

 

 

But the truth is we are different based on gender- acknowledging this does not mean we have to be unequal-equality is not based on ignoring what is a biological, physiological and physical fact-

Example- I teach- the goal of a quality education for both genders is the goal (equality in education) but boys and girls learn differently-if I taught them both the same I would do neither justice-research and data clearly show that they process differently and have different needs-

You are looking at the negative side of gender differences-instead look at the positive sides and the sisterhood or girl code is an empowerment, not an insult-

 

Really? Show me the science on this. There are different learning styles but they transcend gender as well as learning abnormalities, etc. Research has shown that we have three assessment types, thinking style, behavioral style, and motivational style.

 

Thinking style has not show shown to be influenced by gender.

 

You are not understanding me, the concept of, both the positives and negatives sides of it, I find confusing and insulting. I do not see a positive, of any kind, for something called "girl code". I find that as a misogynistic mentality that only continues to propagate that girls should be held to different standards than boys and the rules and expectations are different.

[janedoe67]

Slightly O/T, but gettingstronger, have you read "Boys and Girls Learn Differently"? It is an amazing book.

 

I have both stayed home AND worked full time. I am just as proud of reading with my kids and mopping up their sick as I am any award or leadership I ever earned on the workforce. They are BOTH essential.

[rumbleseat]

Slightly O/T, but gettingstronger, have you read "Boys and Girls Learn Differently"? It is an amazing book.

 

I have both stayed home AND worked full time. I am just as proud of reading with my kids and mopping up their sick as I am any award or leadership I ever earned on the workforce. They are BOTH essential.

 

Hear, hear.

 

It's not a competition between the two. Both roles have enormous value.

 

Interestingly enough, when it comes to learning styles. There is a school of thought that part of the dramatic rise in the diagnosis of ADHD ( not add) in boys comes from forcing them to adapt to the " one size fits all" style of learning. This is why ADHD is more prevalent in boys than girls, while add is not.

 

Brain scans ( both PET And CAT ) have shown differences between the make and female brains, which makes sense, as evolution would likely have favoured this.

 

This doesn't mean that either gender is more capable, but rather that they are equal but different, which is not a bad thing. Why is it such a bad thing to recognize and celebrate the differences? As long as both have an equal opportunity to make their way in the world based on their individual interests and abilities, surely, this is a good thing?

[cocorico]

It's fine to be ambitious and goal oriented. I don't think anyone is saying women shouldn't be.

 

OTC, that is *exactly* what was posted:

 

And this proves that when a class of people, in this case women, start to make inroads in equality, they begin to adopt the worst traits of those in power, men.

 

They grow more ambitions, competitive, more promiscuous, more self and goal-oriented.

 

 

I have no issue with women who choose to stay at home and raise kids. It takes a special kind of self-sacrifice to do that - I tried, and failed. I needed the stimulation and affirmation that paid work provided me.

 

But I do take issue with women - or anyone - who dismiss ambition, goal-directedness, or enjoyment of sexuality as being "masculine" traits, and especially as being "the worst traits of... men" because I believe it is a woman's right to choose her arena of excellence.

 

Some may be happy to band together and support each other caring for kids - that was the example given in previous posts, it was not pulled out of the air as some slight against anyone - but to imply that those of us who choose to excel (yes, through ambition and goal-directedness) in arenas outside the home are some kind of gender-traitors or (gasp!) "masculine" in our orientation is, I believe, perpetuating negative and very harmful stereotypes about what is and is not acceptable behaviour for women and girls.

 

As I said earlier, enjoy it by all means - but don't try to prevent those of us who have made other choices from exercising those.

[Taramere]

Enjoy helping each other mop up your children's sick, ladies, while the rest of us who are not embarrassed to be ambitious or goal directed go out and change the world.

 

At a charity event last year, a prominent singer was kind enough to come along and give a performance. She did it out of thanks to my friend. After the performance the singer was gifted flowers which she then gifted to my friend as a token of her appreciation for the care and treatment she had extended to her (the singer's) mother. My friend is a mother who has no doubt spent lots of time wiping up kids' sick. She is also an extremely dedicated doctor who goes above and beyond the call of duty for her patients. A professional trait that is no doubt linked to the extent to which she is a caring, nurturing person.

 

I'm not a mother, but I'd have no qualms about helping a friend out with her kids if necessary. I wouldn't feel degraded by it. I'm proud of my friend and I would be proud to help her. If somebody else reacted by making some derogatory "enjoy helping your friend wipe up her kids' sick while I go out and change the world" comment to me, I would probably just think they were overstating just how much of a difference they were going out there and making to the world.

 

No personal offence to you Cocorico - I've no gripe with you, but however you might have intended it it did sound like a slight towards some of the women here, and it's not the kind of comment I can imagine hearing from many of the people I've met in life, who truly were making a difference.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Taramere

[rumbleseat]

OTC, that is *exactly* what was posted:

 

 

 

I have no issue with women who choose to stay at home and raise kids. It takes a special kind of self-sacrifice to do that - I tried, and failed. I needed the stimulation and affirmation that paid work provided me.

 

But I do take issue with women - or anyone - who dismiss ambition, goal-directedness, or enjoyment of sexuality as being "masculine" traits, and especially as being "the worst traits of... men" because I believe it is a woman's right to choose her arena of excellence.

 

Some may be happy to band together and support each other caring for kids - that was the example given in previous posts, it was not pulled out of the air as some slight against anyone - but to imply that those of us who choose to excel (yes, through ambition and goal-directedness) in arenas outside the home are some kind of gender-traitors or (gasp!) "masculine" in our orientation is, I believe, perpetuating negative and very harmful stereotypes about what is and is not acceptable behaviour for women and girls.

 

As I said earlier, enjoy it by all means - but don't try to prevent those of us who have made other choices from exercising those.

 

 

Please don't backtrack. At leats have the conviction to stand behind your statements.

 

Noe the following direct quotes from you re; women who think differently than you:

 

'Wheel the wagons (or shopping trolleys)"

 

"Nope, haven't experienced that. Perhaps it doesn't exist outside S&TC or whatever celluloid world created the notion? Blaming those of us who grew up and live beyond the influence of Hollywood for "not understanding" some North American artifice seems a little parochial to me, but I guess it's just another way of delineating who is in and who is out of The Club."

I find such attitudes mind-boggling in people who claim to be supportive of woman. "Yes, sure we'll support women - provided they look and think like us, and are happy in the kitchen letting the world be run by their great hunky husbands." Enjoy helping each other mop up your children's sick, ladies, while the rest of us who are not embarrassed to be ambitious or goal directed go out and change the world. "

 

Which of these indicates that you support women who choose a different life path than you?

[rumbleseat]

At a charity event last year, a prominent singer was kind enough to come along and give a performance. She did it out of thanks to my friend. After the performance the singer was gifted flowers which she then gifted to my friend as a token of her appreciation for the care and treatment she had extended to her (the singer's) mother. My friend is a mother who has no doubt spent lots of time wiping up kids' sick. She is also an extremely dedicated doctor who goes above and beyond the call of duty for her patients. A professional trait that is no doubt linked to the extent to which she is a caring, nurturing person.

 

I'm not a mother, but I'd have no qualms about helping a friend out with her kids if necessary. I wouldn't feel degraded by it. I'm proud of my friend and I would be proud to help her. If somebody else reacted by making some derogatory "enjoy helping your friend wipe up her kids' sick while I go out and change the world" comment to me, I would probably just think they were overstating just how much of a difference they were going out there and making to the world.

 

No personal offence to you Cocorico - I've no gripe with you, but however you might have intended it it did sound like a slight towards some of the women here, and it's not the kind of comment I can imagine hearing from many of the people I've met in life, who truly were making a difference.

 

 

Well put.

It is interesting that many women ( and men too) who have chosen not to pursue a "high power" career are still making an extremely positive impact on the world.

I may not have a high powered career myself, but I have spent countless volunteer hours in high level positions in not for profit groups. It wasmy way of giving back to the world that I feel has been very kind to me. I didn't get paid for it, but that wasn't the point.

 

I'm not the only one who has done this. Many women and men do.

 

When it comes right down to it, what is the problem with women who feel a sense of sisterhood towards one another, so long as it's used in a positive way? the same is true for religion, academia or anything esle. Just because I don't personally understand it or value it doesn't mean others don't or shouldn't.

[rumbleseat]

Please don't backtrack. At leats have the conviction to stand behind your statements.

 

Noe the following direct quotes from you re; women who think differently than you:

 

'Wheel the wagons (or shopping trolleys)"

 

"Nope, haven't experienced that. Perhaps it doesn't exist outside S&TC or whatever celluloid world created the notion? Blaming those of us who grew up and live beyond the influence of Hollywood for "not understanding" some North American artifice seems a little parochial to me, but I guess it's just another way of delineating who is in and who is out of The Club."

I find such attitudes mind-boggling in people who claim to be supportive of woman. "Yes, sure we'll support women - provided they look and think like us, and are happy in the kitchen letting the world be run by their great hunky husbands." Enjoy helping each other mop up your children's sick, ladies, while the rest of us who are not embarrassed to be ambitious or goal directed go out and change the world. "

 

Which of these indicates that you support women who choose a different life path than you?

 

btw, i apologize for my atrocious spelling. Not my day today.

[Taramere]

When it comes right down to it, what is the problem with women who feel a sense of sisterhood towards one another, so long as it's used in a positive way? the same is true for religion, academia or anything esle. Just because I don't personally understand it or value it doesn't mean others don't or shouldn't.

 

I don't see anythig wrong with it if it's used in a positive way - to help make eachother's lives easier. I would only start to feel resentful if I felt that "sisterhood" was trying to control me or dictate to me (about behaviour, choices, values etc)...but really, that's a dynamic that can spring up in any situation where a group forms. It's not restricted to all female or feminist situations.

[rumbleseat]

I don't see anythig wrong with it if it's used in a positive way - to help make eachother's lives easier. I would only start to feel resentful if I felt that "sisterhood" was trying to control me or dictate to me (about behaviour, choices, values etc)...but really, that's a dynamic that can spring up in any situation where a group forms. It's not restricted to all female or feminist situations.

 

 

What's the quote about religion being the opiate of the masses? Can we apply that to the concept of sisterhood as well?

 

I mean this in a slightly different bent than the intended meaning of the statement. Opiates help those in pain to function, and maybe " the sisterhood" and other instances where groups of human beings come together to support one another through the trials of life do the same?

[Spark1111]

we're you all born in the '80s?

 

As recently as 30 years ago, teenage women could not get prescription birth control without their parents consent. Free, privately funded clinics were few and far between. Get pregnant? You were forced to have the baby in secret and give it up for adoption.

 

There were NO enforced sexual harassment workplace laws. Men could do, say anything to a female co-worker and she just had to take it. Women could be bypassed a promotion by a less-qualified male forever without recourse.

 

They first women to work made 20 cents on the dollar, and it took 10 years for that to go up to 50 cents on the dollar made by a man doing the same exact job.

 

When large all male corporations began to be scrutinized for NOT hiring women, they hired black women and counted it twice to federal agencies.

 

Young men today still far exceed women in the fields of science, math and engineering EVEN IF those girls had a higher aptitude for those subjects in younger years. Why is that?

 

Do not even get me started on third-world nations, like Africa, whose HIV population skyrocketed because the government refused to educate and dispense free birth control. I guess they thought the custom of raping virgins a preferable form of treatment. Until they were FORCED by the WHO to change.

 

I have worked successfully inside the home and outside the home. What doe that have to with all these stereotypical judgements now being hurled at me?

 

I was the one who said those with the power love to keep those trying to attain it, squabbling, critical and divided amongst ourselves.

 

This thread is further proof that it is still working, no?

[Spark1111]

OTC, that is *exactly* what was posted:

 

 

 

I have no issue with women who choose to stay at home and raise kids. It takes a special kind of self-sacrifice to do that - I tried, and failed. I needed the stimulation and affirmation that paid work provided me.

 

But I do take issue with women - or anyone - who dismiss ambition, goal-directedness, or enjoyment of sexuality as being "masculine" traits, and especially as being "the worst traits of... men" because I believe it is a woman's right to choose her arena of excellence.

 

Some may be happy to band together and support each other caring for kids - that was the example given in previous posts, it was not pulled out of the air as some slight against anyone - but to imply that those of us who choose to excel (yes, through ambition and goal-directedness) in arenas outside the home are some kind of gender-traitors or (gasp!) "masculine" in our orientation is, I believe, perpetuating negative and very harmful stereotypes about what is and is not acceptable behaviour for women and girls.

 

As I said earlier, enjoy it by all means - but don't try to prevent those of us who have made other choices from exercising those.

 

Who said that?

 

Some of us actually organized, lobbied, enacted laws and helped to make the very changes and freedoms you enjoy today.

 

Yet, you ironically seem to have never heard of the sisterhood, women empowering women, either at home or the workplace and disdain those women who CHOSE to stay home and raise their children.

 

WHERE did that attitude that those who stay home are some how lesser than those who work a job outside the home?

 

A male-dominated patriarchal workplace. Money equals GOOD. Stay at home mom....Useless.

[Spark1111]

It is baffling to me that those who argue for "sisterhood" feel the need to undermine those who don't. Can't be much of a sisterhood in reality.

 

It goes both ways Anne....It really does. It is designed to.

 

That's my point.

[Spark1111]

Nope, haven't experienced that. Perhaps it doesn't exist outside S&TC or whatever celluloid world created the notion? Blaming those of us who grew up and live beyond the influence of Hollywood for "not understanding" some North American artifice seems a little parochial to me, but I guess it's just another way of delineating who is in and who is out of The Club.

 

Nor do I think it bears the remotest resemblance to "humanising the planet" if its raison d'être is the exclusion of half of humanity by virtue of the accident of their gender, and a further proportion who reject the discriminatory premise required for inclusion.

 

Hollywood? You are kidding, right?

 

Those of us who grew up in it, fought for it, organized and helped enact laws that allow women like you to CHOOSE your future, your options, your sexuality, your birth control.....cannot even describe the importance of women empowering women.

 

Either you get it, or you don't. And please re beer two-thirds of the women on the planet have no where's near the freedoms you have today.

 

I am all for humanizing the planet and making everyone enjoy liberty and equality.

 

But there are classes who may need more effort to become more equal.

[Spark1111]

Really? Show me the science on this. There are different learning styles but they transcend gender as well as learning abnormalities, etc. Research has shown that we have three assessment types, thinking style, behavioral style, and motivational style.

 

Thinking style has not show shown to be influenced by gender.

 

You are not understanding me, the concept of, both the positives and negatives sides of it, I find confusing and insulting. I do not see a positive, of any kind, for something called "girl code". I find that as a misogynistic mentality that only continues to propagate that girls should be held to different standards than boys and the rules and expectations are different.

 

They absolutely are. They cannot be just as good, they must be far better to receive the same perks and promotions as male colleagues.

 

Do you have free on-site day care for your male and female co-workers?

 

Does your company offer paid FMLA for both male and female workers?

 

How much time and pay is given to a woman who has just had a baby? Does her H get the same at your company?

 

How many women are in Senior management? Do they make the same pay?

[anne1707]

It goes both ways Anne....It really does. It is designed to.

 

That's my point.

 

I actually think there are some pretty low and nasty posts being made from some posters on both sides of this argument.

 

I don't look down on anybody who says they believe in the sisterhood. I do not believe in it because of two main reasons. First of all because the only place I have heard of it (or similar) is here on LS like many others who have posted here hence it is not something as well-known as some have said. Secondly because IRL, I have not experienced or witnessed anything that I could put down to sisterhood.

 

In my opinion, the idea of sisterhood is wrong. Women have fought hard for equal rights and there is still more to be done. But the solution to that is not to treat women differently to men. The solution is to be treated the same. That is true equality.

 

I really do not understand why it is so surprising to some that these are my views.

[rumbleseat]

They absolutely are. They cannot be just as good, they must be far better to receive the same perks and promotions as male colleagues.

 

Do you have free on-site day care for your male and female co-workers?

 

Does your company offer paid FMLA for both male and female workers?

 

How much time and pay is given to a woman who has just had a baby? Does her H get the same at your company?

 

How many women are in Senior management? Do they make the same pay?

 

I can speak for where my husband works, being a federal agency, it's quite progressive.both men and women can take parental leave of up to one year, during which they get paid at a 90% rate. The women in senior roles get the same pay (everyone does) and there are lots of them. Whole there is no completely paid for day care, it is heavily subsidized and there is free respite and emergency childcare.

 

 

One of the biggest issues with women in his workplace is that some women really do use sex as a way to get ahead, much to the annoyance of the women have worked very hard to be taken seriously by their male colleagues. Up until not that long ago, it was felt that women and men couldn't work together in that sort of environment, but time has proven differently.

[cocorico]

Do not even get me started on third-world nations, like Africa, whose HIV population skyrocketed because the government refused to educate and dispense free birth control. I guess they thought the custom of raping virgins a preferable form of treatment. Until they were FORCED by the WHO to change.

 

 

1. Africa is not a nation. It is a continent, comprising many states and even more nations.

 

2. I have no idea which "government" you are referring to, since Africa has very many of these, but those whose policies I know in detail don't resemble anything you have described. In my own home country, in Africa, "birth control" has been free for decades and was free long before the HIV crisis. But uptakes were low because "birth control" was seen as yet another way the West was attempting to dictate terms to Africa, telling us how many children we were allowed to have. It was no accident that for many years AIDS was seen as a myth. "American Idea to Discourage Sex".

 

3. We were not forced but the WHO to change. Change had nothing to do with outside pressure, but with inside pressure. I know. I was one of the activists who worked relentlessly to get state policy on ARV provision changed, to change a raft of policy and procedure and provision.

 

4. No, sorry, I (nor my compatriots) have not benefitted from any fighting you may have done in your country for your laws to benefit your own kind. We fought our own struggles, wrote our own laws, pressured our own governments and we did it as men and women fighting together, side by side. Our legislation is more progressive than yours, and we did that for ourselves. We do not owe you or your "sisterhood" anything, we lost our own brothers and sisters and friends in our own struggles winning our own victories for our own people.

 

Sorry, but your ignorance on these matters really needs correcting. I cannot allow such blatantly false claims to pass as "fact". Have you ever been to Africa?

[cocorico]

Hollywood? You are kidding, right?

 

Those of us who grew up in it, fought for it, organized and helped enact laws that allow women like you to CHOOSE your future, your options, your sexuality, your birth control.....cannot even describe the importance of women empowering women.

 

Either you get it, or you don't. And please re beer two-thirds of the women on the planet have no where's near the freedoms you have today.

 

I am all for humanizing the planet and making everyone enjoy liberty and equality.

 

But there are classes who may need more effort to become more equal.

 

No, I'm not kidding. "Sisterhood" is a Hollywood concept where I come from.

 

And as for claims that you won me my freedoms, nice try, but you did not. I know who fought alongside me and won me my freedoms, and they were Africans, not Americans. You may have own freedoms for the "sisters" in your club, bit hey are not our freedoms, and your club is not our club.