Wild Conversation

[msoptimistic]

Yesterday I posted on here about my dwindling A with my MM...probably didn't use the word dwindling but this morning it seems to fit! During that post I mentioned that I had received a text from MM wanting to talk because he had been "thinking". We had been on LC for a couple of weeks anyway and some periods of NC, but there was a stress building, I could just feel it. So, after giving myself a pep talk and agreeing with myself to not give in if he started that sweet talk, I made the call..(mistake #1). Much to my disbelief, the conversation that followed was not what I would have expected in a million years...as the OW you hope to hear I'm leaving everything behind and I love you so much that I'll do whatever it takes to be together (another mistake) OR, on the flip side, you dread hearing that he is going to give his M another try and I love you but... (notice there was an "I love you" in both scenarios because I think we crave that so much).

 

We had a conversation on Wednesday that what we were doing was morally wrong to everyone involved and we needed to make lots of things right...his W, my H, parents, kids, extended family, friends - lots of people were involved beyond 'us' and we needed to think about that. There was alot more to that conversation but it was definitely one of those talks where something has to change no matter how difficult...

 

Well, yesterday's conversation went more like this...while taking a shower he got to thinking about what we had talked about and decided that I must just not love him as much as he had thought. There was a time in his life when he was the OM to a MW and during that time, he loved her so much that all he wanted to do was be with her whenever he could? So how could I talk of moving on if I truly loved him? 5 minutes of this kind of thing and I must say I was caught off guard...this is a man who came into this A with me exactly 1 month after he had gotten married...I have stood beside him through thick and thin, ups and downs, been totally honest (which he says he had never had in a R before), dealt with broken promises (she'll be gone in 3 months, just give it time), and so much more to be questioned about how much I love him?

 

And the thing that gets me is I had all those thoughts just like every woman in an A has...I thought that when it all came down to it, he would choose me. I thought what we had was different and special. I mean it when I say he couldn't have chosen any better words to say to make me fall head over heels. But to question if I love him "enough" hurts even worse; I could never ever do enough to "earn" his unconditional love because if I could have earned it, I would own it now.

 

Still reeling from the direction of this conversation...I would have fallen for I love you, let's work it out; I would have hurt over I have to try to make my M work, but I'm not even sure what I think about "you don't love me 'enough'"???

[inappfriendly]

MO, I read your thread from yesterday and was waiting for this one. What a HOT MESS!!!

How in the world did you respond? My gut tells me that he is in some way trying to manipulate you and your feelings by eliciting completely unfounded guilt. Don't let him. You know what is in your heart. If he has to question that to justify his life choices, whatever.

Hang tough and all the best

[Snipercatt]

Well, we could post a bunch of back and forth gobble-de-gook about what he is attempting to accomplish by telling you this.

 

However, he is right. Neither you, or anyone, can "love him enough" because he is a bottomless pit.

 

That comment told you all you need to know about him. Really.

[inappfriendly]

Well said, Snipercatt. It's a familiar theme among OM and OW, married or otherwise. Myself included.

Trying to fill that void.

I try to remember that when I feel sad or jealous that exMOM's W "won" him. Once she stops filling his cup, he'll look elsewhere. He may never find enough love or happiness to fill his pit.

[veryhappy]

Well, yesterday's conversation went more like this...while taking a shower he got to thinking about what we had talked about and decided that I must just not love him as much as he had thought.

 

I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but this made me laugh. I know you feel like crying, but the absurdity of it...think about it. He was taking a shower and had such a profound moment...

 

Love to selfish people is about what they can get. He wants things as they are. Things as they are mean you are on the side, so if you love him you'd stay there and be there for him as you've done. It's on the same level with hearing from my exAP that because I'm maintaing NC I must not hurt as much as him. This from the guy deeply commited to the M, who switched in a couple of weeks from wanting to be with me to being sure he'll forever stay married to the woman of his life. Of course he was hurting more...

 

Take it for what it is and stop the conversations at some point because they are crazy making. One of the best I've gotten was "I want you, but I don't want a life with you". Isn't it obvious yet that he was hurting more just as you refusing to be the other woman means you don't love him enough?

 

Poor baby...give him some rubber duckies to take a bubble bath next time with the wife and take care of yourself because he doesn't love you enough. That's the answer: "are you effing kidding me? I've been there for you loving you and all you do is disrespect me and treat me like trash".

[msoptimistic]

Well, I have to tell you, InAppFriendly, I did not respond as I should have because I think I was still picking my bottom lip up off the floor after the conversation had been over for 5 minutes...I remember saying, "Are we really having a conversation where you are questioning how much I love you?" But I just couldn't think fast enough! I know in my mind I was actually thinking, now you're seeing where you really stand and he's just trying to turn this around and make you the bad guy....

 

And yes, Snipercat, he is a bottomless pit...haven't thought much about the impossibility of giving "enough" but you can't for a person like this...I truly don't think his cup will ever be full at home, but I don't think he wants a full cup anyway...that would require committment and work on his part and I don't think that's his cup of tea!

 

Cutedragon, thanks for pointing out that for people like him love is all about what they can get out of it...I have never one time asked him to "be there" for me, and I've never one time refused to be there for him...in a more traditional R, people get to know one another on a much more open and quicker path; you learn the type of personality you are dealing with sooner instead of waiting for stolen moments to talk for a few minutes or texts here and there that don't allow for truly getting to know someone...in an A, by the time you start realizing the personality of your "soul mate", you can be months and years into the R and have so much invested that it's devastating to be wrong and be forced to move on.

 

Haven't talked to him since the conversation but I have definitely given it some thought...even made myself some cheat notes if I decide to call him back and reveal my side of the story...think I might point out that last June he promised she would be gone in 3 months, just as soon as she got all her personal bills paid..NOPE...or how about in January when he was having some work problems and I listened patiently till it was resolved and then he promised to start working on getting out of the M too....NOPE...or how about he works for a company that has a horrible reputation in their community...but everytime something comes up (which is pretty regularly), I tell him how wonderful he is and keep his chin up and it'll be fine...how about all those things I deal with day to day that put me in bed crying at night and waking up with that horrible empty feeling where you just want to stay asleep so you don't have to face reality...so by his logic, I would do all these things (and so much more) for someone I didn't love "enough"?

 

How about he doesn't love me enough? What about the fact that he always tells me if she leaves, I won't be out any money; but, if I ask her to leave, it's gonna cost me...so now he's choosing her and his money over me? But he loves me "enough"???? Yeah, right! SOOOO, do I call or not?????

[veryhappy]

I say think of all you have to say and call. Get everything out. Make a list and make him listen. Email him that list, See who he is when facing reality. It sounds like he's going to turn it on you "yes, but you...don't understand, don't love me", whatever....

 

The irony is that you probably love him too much. You don't have to absorb the stress in his life which is what you are doing by being the third.

[cozycottagelg]

Response - "oh my gosh...you're right! I hadn't thought about it like that. I don't love you enough. I will never bother you again" he will change his tune.

[Snipercatt]

SOOOO, do I call or not?????

 

IF you call him, don't go down the path of explaining yourself about anything. It will only open the door for more argument from him that will only serve to hurt you feelings and leave you with even more issues that you will want to set the record straight on.

 

you're right! I hadn't thought about it like that. I don't love you enough. I will never bother you again" he will change his tune.

 

Whether he changes his tune, or not, I would tell him that you were taking a shower this morning and this profound thought came to you that he's right, NO ONE can ever love him enough, including you. And, then I'd tell him to respect your request for no contact, ever, about anything, and tell him, that you are politely ending this conversation by hanging up. Period. Nothing else will give you satisfaction - that horse has left the barn.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

IF you call him, don't go down the path of explaining yourself about anything. It will only open the door for more argument from him that will only serve to hurt you feelings and leave you with even more issues that you will want to set the record straight on.

 

 

 

Whether he changes his tune, or not, I would tell him that you were taking a shower this morning and this profound thought came to you that he's right, NO ONE can ever love him enough, including you. And, then I'd tell him to respect your request for no contact, ever, about anything, and tell him, that you are politely ending this conversation by hanging up. Period. Nothing else will give you satisfaction - that horse has left the barn.

 

This is awesome! OP, Your MM is projecting I think!!!

[georgia girl]

I was so taken aback by this man's manipulation of you that I had to post. This is outright manipulation. He's mad that you won't continue as you are, so he's trying to manipulate you into settling for less than what you truly want or desire.

 

My response to him? I'd call him back and say, "You know what? You're right. I don't love you enough. I love me and I could get a fat, flippin' (fill in the word you think I'd use here) whether or not you think I love you or love you enough. I love me and in the end, that's all that matters. Stay away from me. Don't call, don't text and don't you ever try to manipulate me again. If you do, I promise you within an inch of your life that no matter what it costs me the whole world - your wife, your boss, your next door neighbors and the relatives you don't ever see any more will know everything you did with me. Whatever evidence I have, I will share and I will absolutely blow your world apart. Try me."

 

Then, I would get good and angry and stay away from this man with every cell you have in you.

 

You have just made an incredibly lucky escape. This man is not a man. Someone who manipulates you never, ever deserves you.

 

Hugs, GG

[RickFox]

Calling him is the worst you can do, so don't. You don't need to say your piece, it won't matter. He is trying to get you to announce how much you need and want him.... just shut the door and keep it closed. Sometimes the most powerful words/message is the sound of nothing

[sunburned]

MO, the posters above all have some great suggestions on what to say. Based on my experience (some might say incompetency), I would say don't call and don't reply. Go NC without a word. I had to make this decision about 6 months ago. I even wrote down all the clever things I would say and pictured his jaw hitting the floor. But deep down I knew myself and knew I would not demonstrate the rapier-like wit I did in my own mind. I would get nervous, I could not predict what he would say (clearly you have the same problem from your OP) and because of that, I could not trust myself to respond appropriately. We had a talk and it was frustrating. emotional and circuitous. We decided to take a breath and talk again after the weekend. I was to call and just didn't. I wanted to, but it was self-preservation at that point. He didn't call me either, BTW. Been NC ever since.

[lynn1954]

I was so taken aback by this man's manipulation of you that I had to post. This is outright manipulation. He's mad that you won't continue as you are, so he's trying to manipulate you into settling for less than what you truly want or desire.

 

 

 

 

GeorgiaGirl, thank you for pointing out the manipulation. I just posted a thread here a few days ago about manipulation, and was surprised at how many people denied what manipulation is and/or denied that many MM words and actions are manipulation. Well, this is a classic example.

 

 

MsOptimistic, you just experienced a different kind of D-day. You experienced DoucheBag-day. With what he said, and the type of thinking it reveals, I hope that your feelings for him shut off immediately and permanently, just like a faucet that was previously working and is now bone dry.

 

Don't call him nor text him. Don't communicate with him nor even think about him. He's toast.

 

He's not your dream guy, he's not your soul mate, he's not your future. He's a mistake from your past that you can just forgive yourself for, and reclaim a great life for yourself.

[jwi71]

Well, I have to tell you, InAppFriendly, I did not respond as I should have because I think I was still picking my bottom lip up off the floor after the conversation had been over for 5 minutes...I remember saying, "Are we really having a conversation where you are questioning how much I love you?" But I just couldn't think fast enough! I know in my mind I was actually thinking, now you're seeing where you really stand and he's just trying to turn this around and make you the bad guy....

 

Nope...not his play....

 

And yes, Snipercat, he is a bottomless pit...haven't thought much about the impossibility of giving "enough" but you can't for a person like this...I truly don't think his cup will ever be full at home, but I don't think he wants a full cup anyway...that would require committment and work on his part and I don't think that's his cup of tea!

Nah...its far simpler than being a bottomless pit...

Cutedragon, thanks for pointing out that for people like him love is all about what they can get out of it...I have never one time asked him to "be there" for me, and I've never one time refused to be there for him...in a more traditional R, people get to know one another on a much more open and quicker path; you learn the type of personality you are dealing with sooner instead of waiting for stolen moments to talk for a few minutes or texts here and there that don't allow for truly getting to know someone...in an A, by the time you start realizing the personality of your "soul mate", you can be months and years into the R and have so much invested that it's devastating to be wrong and be forced to move on.

Remember this...how little you asked...how you never "weren't" there for him....

 

Haven't talked to him since the conversation but I have definitely given it some thought...even made myself some cheat notes if I decide to call him back and reveal my side of the story...think I might point out that last June he promised she would be gone in 3 months, just as soon as she got all her personal bills paid..NOPE...or how about in January when he was having some work problems and I listened patiently till it was resolved and then he promised to start working on getting out of the M too....NOPE...or how about he works for a company that has a horrible reputation in their community...but everytime something comes up (which is pretty regularly), I tell him how wonderful he is and keep his chin up and it'll be fine...how about all those things I deal with day to day that put me in bed crying at night and waking up with that horrible empty feeling where you just want to stay asleep so you don't have to face reality...so by his logic, I would do all these things (and so much more) for someone I didn't love "enough"?

...all part and parcel....

 

Yeah, right! SOOOO, do I call or not?????

 

Are you out of your god-damned mind?

 

He played this PERFECTLY.

 

Because...he has YOU thinking you need to do MORE.

 

WT_actual_F.

 

Really?

 

Its just a big massive ego stroke to see if he can get YOU to do MORE for HIM, aka, come groveling back.

 

"Prove to me you are good enough for me"

 

Really?

 

You're gonna pick up the phone and try to sell yourself?

To prove how wrong he is? To go the extra mile? What the hell would that be anyway?

 

No. Absolutely not. Do not degrade yourself any further for him - or anyone.

 

We will...1) call him. 2) Agree with him 3) tell him to sod off. 4) move on and live life

 

(what an asshat)

[Suque]

I'm sad to say that I'm not really surprised by the way this guy thinks. Many of us do become involved in these relationships to fill a void, but I think that in many cases, we love deeply and give everything we can. ...then there are the people that become involved in an A so they can take what they can get. He knows that you have/had such strong feelings for him, that he thought questioning your love would make you come running back.

 

On a bright note... I bet you don't see him as such a great guy now

[FoolishOW]

Wow... you guys that responded are amazing! I didn't recognize the manipulative element of his side of their conversation AT ALL, yet you all spotted it immediately! Kudos to all of you for pointing it out and being so perfectly expressive about the "why" behind his claims that "he wasn't loved enough". I thought I was pretty good at recognizing crappy behavior, but this went right over my head. Now that it's been pointed out, it makes perfect sense to me, but I'm glad this wasn't a friend of mine who really needed MY words of wisdom to help her figure this out... I would have failed that friend miserably. I guess you learn something new everyday, right? You guys ROCK!

[FoolishOW]

msoptimistic... I'm sorry this guy turned out to be such a dipstick! I couldn't actually remember who posted this thread, or I would have said this to you in my above post. You sound intelligent and kind, and I am sorry you have to suffer the "loss" of who you thought this man was. I do hope your healing is swift.

[Hope Shimmers]

Wow... you guys that responded are amazing! I didn't recognize the manipulative element of his side of their conversation AT ALL, yet you all spotted it immediately!

 

Hmmm. Maybe there is a reason for that.

 

I think there are two sides to the story. Sometimes, when people are anxious to pinpoint such behavior, it goes like it did in this thread... where basically it was persecuted.

 

But, I think perhaps people here jumped to "recognize" this and call this guy out to be a horrible person for that reason.

 

I suspect the OP is feeling terrible right now. He said what he said to her - maybe he recognized it as maniplulative, maybe not. We have all said things that were selfish, manipulative, etc in our relationships or marriage at one time or another. It does not automatically make us horrible people or to be judged based only on this.

 

I think he was grasping at straws. I do think you need to continue to go NC, OP.... but don't end this thinking he is a horrible, manipulative person who never cared about you.

 

Sometimes we just feel how we feel, even if it isn't "right".

[inappfriendly]

Hope Shimmers, I think your assessment is fair.We all are guilty of manipulation, whether it is consciously or subconsciously. Feelings and emotions during and after an A are tumultuous and conflicted, to say the least! Most of us are here because we have been there. And are still there. Which is why NC is necessary for our own sanity. One can only hope that MsO's xMM's INTENTIONS were not to hurt her. He clearly has no idea what he truly wants or needs. Maybe another shower or 5 will help him see more clearly!

Bottomline: He is not changing his life to be with her. Even if she did LOVE HIM ENOUGH. Whatever that even means! I've been in a similar position. There is not one thing I could have said or done differently to change the outcome of my A. Trust me, I tried. I gave my all and risked (and lost) a lot. I thought I could love him enough for the BOTH OF US. But at the end of the day, you cannot change what is in anyone's heart but your own.

All the best!

[msoptimistic]

Such great advice...thank you all so much! Mr. MM has made some contact since we had "the" conversation...couple of phone calls...few texts. But as is the way with an A, there hasn't been a time we could speak freely. The conversation did open my eyes to another side of his personality that is obviously very unattractive. And playing the manipulation card was really low. I still replay it in my head and think I must have been dreaming?

 

I know there has been advice to go nc immediately but I am a woman who was blindsided and I feel a need to speak my mind...not that I any longer disillusion myself that it will make a difference but more because it feels like I let him get by with behaviors that I never would have otherwise tolerated except I was so shocked.

 

The whole episode has done something with my emotions. I still cry and feel heartbroken but maybe not quite as much...I've also given a whole lot more thought to what he would be like to live with day in/day out...maybe his wife has cause to be the witch he makes her out to be. I still wonder about the whole sad irony of finding something that feels so good and it turning out to be so wrong. But the idea of peace and less stress by walking away completely becomes more appealing as time goes on...

 

There was a thread on here not too long ago that dealt with what was the final straw that made you end an A. It seemed that time took care of ending many affairs because one partner would just tire of always being second. May be a slow painful death but I hope this is a step toward being done with him. Time to let my head lead for awhile instead of my heart.

 

Think I'll make that call tomorrow. Pray that he doesn't say something that my heart falls for and leave the conversation with him receiving a piece of my mind that might leave him picking his chin up off the floor!

[lynn1954]

"Duh". DON'T CALL HIM!!

 

 

You don't need to speak your mind; he doesn't care what you say, and you'll only be aggravated by whatever he says.

 

 

Why would you write that you hope he doesn't say something to make your heart fall for him...is that actually what you want, and the rest of what you've written is self-deception?

 

 

Jeez, I know you're in the middle of it, but go back and read your own words, plus the advice from others, and DO THE RIGHT THING.

 

 

There is some other great single guy out there in the world, and your fates are to meet each other. Get rid of this ridiculous MM who is ruining your life, and go find your real man!

[lynn1954]

Oh, wait, I forgot that you're already married.

 

 

Did you already post somewhere why you and your H don't have a good relationship?

 

 

Sorry, I wasn't paying good attention here.

[Suque]

 

The whole episode has done something with my emotions. I still cry and feel heartbroken but maybe not quite as much...I've also given a whole lot more thought to what he would be like to live with day in/day out...maybe his wife has cause to be the witch he makes her out to be. I still wonder about the whole sad irony of finding something that feels so good and it turning out to be so wrong. But the idea of peace and less stress by walking away completely becomes more appealing as time goes on...

 

^^^^^^^^^^^

I am totally with you. Thank you for this!!!