Double standard.

[KathyM]

Women admire men who are brave, confident, strong, and can take care of business and step up to the occasion when a difficult time comes. That doesn't mean the man has to be shut off from his emotions and unwilling or unable to express emotion. Maybe he has to shut them down at times during times of true crisis, such as in combat or rescue operations, in order to deal with the difficult task at hand, but generally, men who are cut off from their emotions or will not allow themselves to express emotion or vulnerability to the ones they are close to cheat themselves and their partner out of an emotionally close relationship and true emotional intimacy.

[Got it]

Women admire men who are brave, confident, strong, and can take care of business and step up to the occasion when a difficult time comes. That doesn't mean the man has to be shut off from his emotions and unwilling or unable to express emotion. Maybe he has to shut them down at times during times of true crisis, such as in combat or rescue operations, in order to deal with the difficult task at hand, but generally, men who are cut off from their emotions or will not allow themselves to express emotion or vulnerability to the ones they are close to cheat themselves and their partner out of an emotionally close relationship and true emotional intimacy.

 

This exactly!

 

My husband is like this, he is a Man's man and I love to see him command a room with his presence. But he is actually very in touch with and open about this feelings and doesn't feel he is less than if he sheds a tear. He is insightful, decisive, thoughtful, forgiving, and human. He can be fiery as can I but he will always come back around and keep on trying. He is stubborn and strong willed but I need a challenge so that is okay.

 

He is a marshmallow with his kids but will rush into a burning building as a volunteer firefighter. He will rush across NYC to get me cookies at my favorite place before coming home from a trip and he is a fantastic decorator and is always upgrading our home and making it a home.

 

Honestly if I had half the talents and realness as he does I would be much better, amazing person.

[thefooloftheyear]

Women admire men who are brave, confident, strong, and can take care of business and step up to the occasion when a difficult time comes. That doesn't mean the man has to be shut off from his emotions and unwilling or unable to express emotion. Maybe he has to shut them down at times during times of true crisis, such as in combat or rescue operations, in order to deal with the difficult task at hand, but generally, men who are cut off from their emotions or will not allow themselves to express emotion or vulnerability to the ones they are close to cheat themselves and their partner out of an emotionally close relationship and true emotional intimacy.

 

You arent technically incorrect....But the way some people talk about this, its as if all guys are walking emotional timebombs waiting to explode..If on a rare occasion a guy prefers to go for a drive on a lonesome highway alone, hit a heavy bag or throw some iron around, or just go into a room and listen to music alone-rather than cry on his SO shoulder and come apart-it doesnt make him anything other than a different human being....I just dont see how thats "cheating" anyone of anything...

 

TFY

[Taramere]

Its got absolutely nothing to do with macho, tough guy mentality...

 

Some of the responses are pretty typical...The feminization and gender nuetral bullshyt has been going on for decades in our society..This is just part and parcel of that...

 

Notice how you rarely hear the term "man's man" anymore? It used to be a positive characterization of a strong and self assured male figure..

 

It is quite ironic how when the shyt hits the fan though(like it did for 9/11 and Hurricane Sandy) how all of a sudden the mans man is everyone's best buddy....

 

TFY

 

Nobody's coming down on men's men or men who fit the traditional image of manliness. That traditional model just isn't one that's a good match for all men. There are so many different ways a person can be. Some men who make fantastic soldiers or firefighters, others who are inventors, others who have amazing insight into human nature and make brilliant counsellors.

 

People validating the way a nurturing, emotional type of man is doesn't equate with a slap in the face of all men who are more traditional types. It's just about accepting different types of people and valuing them for having the courage to be themselves rather than trying to squeeze themselves into a shape that doesn't suit them.

 

Which is what I think Under The Radar was doing with his posts. Thinking of boys out there who don't fit the traditional man's man's role, never will and are left in that dilemma of wondering whether they should constantly pretend to be something they're not. Going through life being inauthentic and unconvincing, and getting the bad reaction from other people that being inauthentic and unconvincing always gets. That's not a good road to send anybody down. How can they have any real self respect if they're constantly putting on a fake persona that bears little resemblance to what's inside? These things matter. People can destroy their own lives and potential for happiness by giving way to the pressure to constantly pretend to be something they're really not.

 

You can be a model for some boys, TFY - but you can't be a model for all of them. It doesn't mean that the man's man s extinct or that nobody appreciates that kind of man any more. It just means there's room for other types of men too.

[gaius]

Sorry, but that is just lame. It's basically men ...... telling other men ...... to not be yourself in order to get and maintain a relationship with a woman. Who would honestly want to hide their true self to win someone over? No matter how physically beautiful she may be on the outside ...... what does that say about their inside?

Most people I know generally adapt their behavior to get what they want. Getting your needs met is first and foremost what makes up someones personality. I know in my first relationship with a woman I got clingy after we first got together. Then she got totally sick of it and ended up scraping me off like a barnacle. So now I'm not that clingy anymore. Am I hiding my true self? Do I have to resist being clingy? No. I don't even have an urge anymore after seeing the results it brought.

 

Again, despite what some women in this thread claim, there's a few universally wrong ways of dealing with your emotions as a man. And getting to the point where a woman feels the need to "help" you when you're talking about what's going on is one of them. If you want success with women, adapt. If you're not adapting, and are instead running around banging your head against a wall because you need to "be yourself" then there's probably a part of you that doesn't really want to succeed.

Edited March 10, 2014 by gaius

[Quiet Storm]

We have to teach our boys its ok to feel, to cry, to fear.

 

Girls see when a coach tells a boy in pain to suck it up. They witness Dad calling their brother soft for being afraid. They see boys calling other boys names for crying. Its not surprising that witnessing this would have an influence on how they perceive male emotions.

[gaius]

We have to teach our boys its ok to feel, to cry, to fear.

 

Girls see when a coach tells a boy in pain to suck it up. They witness Dad calling their brother soft for being afraid. They see boys calling other boys names for crying. Its not surprising that witnessing this would have an influence on how they perceive male emotions.

That's like teaching a guy it's ok to be openly gay in Uganda......

 

Even if I'm totally wrong and Emilia did get turned on by that it still gives me the urge to make fun of him for it. Which doesn't do him any favors by encouraging it.

[janedoe67]

That's like teaching a guy it's ok to be openly gay in Uganda......

 

Even if I'm totally wrong and Emilia did get turned on by that it still gives me the urge to make fun of him for it. Which doesn't do him any favors by encouraging it.

 

So, in reality, it really ISN'T about how women in general and at large react to a vulnerable man, it's about how less evolved and shallower MEN react to a vulnerable man.

 

Oh, and how men who are bitter against all women because of their own bad experiences view women's reactions to a vulnerable man.

 

Like I said, I sure hope for women's sakes that the men on this thread who think so little of women are SINGLE.

[Taramere]

Most people I know generally adapt their behavior to get what they want. Getting your needs met is first and foremost what makes up someones personality. I know in my first relationship with a woman I got clingy after we first got together. Then she got totally sick of it and ended up scraping me off like a barnacle. So now I'm not that clingy anymore. Am I hiding my true self? Do I have to resist being clingy? No. I don't even have an urge anymore after seeing the results it brought.

 

Clinginess isn't sensitive behaviour. It's selfish. A clingy person isn't thinking about the needs and interests of the person they're clinging to. They're not thinking in terms of "this person might need a bit of space or alone time to recharge".

 

A more sensitive man would probably not have needed to learn the lesson you learned when she scraped you off like a barnacle. He'd have been more alert to the possibility of the other person needing some space. More likely, too, that he'd be willing to figure out why he felt the need to cling - and to address it. Your way of addressing it was to stop doing it. Fine, but did you really face up to and address whatever issues made you behave in that clingy way? Or are they still there, and manifesting themselves in a different way?

 

My nephew took a little longer than he should have to graduate from a tricycle to a two wheeled bike (eventually my dad solved the problem with old fashioned bribery. "£10 if you can ride the two wheeler by the end of today"). Within a matter of days, he was sniggering about much younger children who were "still using tricycles". Classic projection. He was reminded in no uncertain terms, by everybody, that he himself had only recently graduated from three wheelers, so it was a bit rich to laugh at children a fair bit younger who were still pedalling away on their tricycles.

 

 

Again, despite what some women in this thread claim, there's a few universally wrong ways of dealing with your emotions as a man.

 

There's also a universally right way of dealing with them. That is, to manage them effectively. Actually knowing how you feel, and why, is a vital step in doing that. The alternative is the employment of all sorts of defence mechanisms aimed at helping you to hide from your own feelings.

 

And getting to the point where a woman feels the need to "help" you when you're talking about what's going on is one of them. If you want success with women, adapt. If you're not adapting, and are instead running around banging your head against a wall because you need to "be yourself" then there's probably a part of you that doesn't really want to succeed.

 

I have male friends who don't hesitate to ask me for help in areas I'm strong in. Likewise, they would help me in areas I'm weak in. I would be irritated by a man who refused to take help from me in those areas on the basis that I'm a woman. I'd just think he was an insecure individual who lacked the self confidence and assurance to extend any credit to women where it's due.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Taramere

[HomanWater]

well, if you've taken all your winnings and risked it on one turn of pitch and toss, and lost, it probably is best not to harp on to other people about it. The point of that line, I think, is that when you have the freedom to make a choice and you make a stupid choice it's best not to bend other people's ear incessantly about the consequences.

 

Very funny you say that. There's this other thread on Infidelity forum (probably not the best form to point it out by name, so I won't) with a woman who made a gamble and cheated on her husband, because she didn't think she'd get caught. She did and got divorced, and seems not too happy about it. Yet she still manages to find plenty of sympathy.

 

And now we see point blank, that if it was a guy, he could never count for the same kind of sympathy this woman is getting. Proves a point beautifully.

 

If you look through this thread, the judgements about men who cry and emote in front of their partners aren't coming from women. They're coming mainly from other men. There's a message being repeated over and over that "guys, even if your woman pretends to be sympathetic when you're looking for her shoulder to cry on, really she's just completely turned off by the whole thing."

 

It's a no win scenario for women really. If you respond in a nurturing way, you're "babying men" and if you respond in a way that attempts to be supportive, motivating or inspiring without the nurturing, babying elements then you're being too cold and heartless.

 

The fact is that lots of women are happy to help, nurture and generally be supportive towards upset people - male or female. Unless a guy is absolutely determined to be perceived as an unshakably sexy and superhuman Greek God by every single woman on the planet, he's going to find a woman somewhere who will be only too happy to attend on his woes in a very nurturing way.

 

I don't see anything wrong with being nurturing, there is a difference between being nurturing and babying someone else.

[gaius]

A more sensitive man would probably not have needed to learn the lesson you learned when she scraped you off like a barnacle. He'd have been more alert to the possibility of the other person needing some space. More likely, too, that he'd be willing to figure out why he felt the need to cling - and to address it. Your way of addressing it was to stop doing it. Fine, but did you really face up to and address whatever issues made you behave in that clingy way? Or are they still there, and manifesting themselves in a different way?

I clinged because I had no real male role model to teach me how to interact with women on a sexual level. Isn't that what a good boyfriend was supposed to do? Give his girlfriend plenty of attention? That's what women would tell me anyway. It was bad advice, like you see a lot of in this thread.

 

Whining about your problems to your girlfriend is just as selfish.

My nephew took a little longer than he should have to graduate from a tricycle to a two wheeled bike (eventually my dad solved the problem with old fashioned bribery. "£10 if you can ride the two wheeler by the end of today"). Within a matter of days, he was sniggering about much younger children who were "still using tricycles". Classic projection. He was reminded in no uncertain terms, by everybody, that he himself had only recently graduated from three wheelers, so it was a bit rich to laugh at children a fair bit younger who were still pedalling away on their tricycles.

It wasn't rich at all. He was passing the lesson on to the other kids that they should learn how to ride the tricycle. I don't think a lot of women really understand male love, including you Tara. Do you think men do what QuietStorm mentioned because it's just some archaic, out of date ritual that we feel we need to do for some reason? Because we're mean bullies who need to dominate others? No, most men do it because they've learned what kind of reaction they get from women when they show weakness and they pass on that lesson by providing negative stimulus to other men when they do it.

I have male friends who don't hesitate to ask me for help in areas I'm strong in. Likewise, they would help me in areas I'm weak in. I would be irritated by a man who refused to take help from me in those areas on the basis that I'm a woman. I'd just think he was an insecure individual who lacked the self confidence and assurance to extend any credit to women where it's due.

Well, that's nice that have a lot of male friends that ask for help but you're just proving my point by trying to rebutt me with you're own experience. There are plenty of ways as a guy you can deal with your unsexy feelings without dumping them all someone you're sexually attracted to.

[gaius]

So, in reality, it really ISN'T about how women in general and at large react to a vulnerable man, it's about how less evolved and shallower MEN react to a vulnerable man.

 

Oh, and how men who are bitter against all women because of their own bad experiences view women's reactions to a vulnerable man.

 

Like I said, I sure hope for women's sakes that the men on this thread who think so little of women are SINGLE.

I was trying to be nice because I like Emilia but I'm not wrong. That's just another variable in the equation.

 

I don't see any men hating on women in this thread jane. I see men having an honest discussion about what turns women on. And quite frankly when the roles are reversed men usually dont have much of a clue either about exactly what behavior turns them on and what doesn't. It's human nature not to be totally self aware.

[Got it]

I clinged because I had no real male role model to teach me how to interact with women on a sexual level. Isn't that what a good boyfriend was supposed to do? Give his girlfriend plenty of attention? That's what women would tell me anyway. It was bad advice, like you see a lot of in this thread.

 

Whining about your problems to your girlfriend is just as selfish.

 

It wasn't rich at all. He was passing the lesson on to the other kids that they should learn how to ride the tricycle. I don't think a lot of women really understand male love, including you Tara. Do you think men do what QuietStorm mentioned because it's just some archaic, out of date ritual that we feel we need to do for some reason? Because we're mean bullies who need to dominate others? No, most men do it because they've learned what kind of reaction they get from women when they show weakness and they pass on that lesson by providing negative stimulus to other men when they do it.

 

Well, that's nice that have a lot of male friends that ask for help but you're just proving my point by trying to rebutt me with you're own experience. There are plenty of ways as a guy you can deal with your unsexy feelings without dumping them all someone you're sexually attracted to.

 

Why do you only see it as male and female? I doubt that a child is discerning the difference between the two genders. I think men are incredible hard on themselves and towards other men as women are with other women.

 

I think if one needs to look at "men learned what kind of reaction they get from women when they show weakness" one needs to really focus on their relationship with their mother and they upbringing. That seems to be the crux of the problem though I think we are negating the father influence as well.

 

I laugh because the whole "suck it up thing" is what I was taught as well as my brother and what I tend to do with my niece. I see them coddle her and when she falls (and has that look of trying to decide which way to go) I don't rush over to her and coddle her. I have a neutral face, tell her she is fine, shake it off and let's play with this toy.

 

I feel like these attributes are really started, and potentially solidified well prior to dating if one had a well rounded and integrated childhood. Having a twin brother I was around males as much as females and didn't see a huge difference.

 

I think clinginess is a symptom of relationship projection far earlier than once someone is dating. That is codependent behavior that is projected in our younger years, observing those around us, and project/implement when we get to that stage.

 

If a completely neutral background one would not lend themselves naturally to being clingy more so than to dissociation. This is a learned behavior from somewhere else and most likely a pattern one has with their own parent or because of lacking a parent and trying to recreate that relationship and "fix" it's outcome.

[Got it]

I was trying to be nice because I like Emilia but I'm not wrong. That's just another variable in the equation.

 

I don't see any men hating on women in this thread jane. I see men having an honest discussion about what turns women on. And quite frankly when the roles are reversed men usually dont have much of a clue either about exactly what behavior turns them on and what doesn't. It's human nature not to be totally self aware.

 

Do you see the paradox of these two statements to be rather comical?

 

It is human nature not to be totally self-aware yet men are having an honest discussion about what turns women on. . . . . does that not seem rather . . . . off to anyone else? :laugh:

 

Sorry gaius, not making fun of you, just laughing about human nature.

[Emilia]

Even if I'm totally wrong and Emilia did get turned on by that it still gives me the urge to make fun of him for it. Which doesn't do him any favors by encouraging it.

Jesus gaius, this is a public forum and we are all strangers. You are taking this a little too seriously and kinda personally. You need to reasses your boundaries.

[Taramere]

Very funny you say that. There's this other thread on Infidelity forum (probably not the best form to point it out by name, so I won't) with a woman who made a gamble and cheated on her husband, because she didn't think she'd get caught. She did and got divorced, and seems not too happy about it. Yet she still manages to find plenty of sympathy.

 

And now we see point blank, that if it was a guy, he could never count for the same kind of sympathy this woman is getting. Proves a point beautifully.

 

I'm not that woman, and I'm not on her thread giving her sympathy. Nobody, male or female, who cheats on their spouse is going to be getting a whole lot of sympathy from me. If somebody in that situation asked me for advice, I would try to give them advice that I thought was reasonable and sensible - but that's not quite the same as giving somebody sympathy.

 

Could you outline for me the kind of scenario you're looking for here in terms of a man coming on here and getting the sympathy you would want to see him getting? What about the men who've posted here who think it's completely wrong for men to be encouraged to open up and express their feelings? Would you challenge them on that, or do you regard their perspective as something women should constantly be challenging (in the way that women are challenging them on this thread)?

 

Since you're not happy with the status quo, you must have some idea of what you'd like to see change for men and how you'd anticipate those changes coming around. So what would you do? How would you change things?

[gaius]

Do you see the paradox of these two statements to be rather comical?

 

It is human nature not to be totally self-aware yet men are having an honest discussion about what turns women on. . . . . does that not seem rather . . . . off to anyone else? :laugh:

 

Sorry gaius, not making fun of you, just laughing about human nature.

It's a pretty simple concept got. You generally have a better perspective on things when you're an outsider observing. It's such common sense that I would almost think you're trying to be disdainful without looking disdainful because you don't like what I have to say. Since you're usually pretty smart and would easily grasp something that simple.

[gaius]

Jesus gaius, this is a public forum and we are all strangers. You are taking this a little too seriously and kinda personally. You need to reasses your boundaries.

Normally I'd love to fight with you but that's so ridiculous and out there I'm not even going to bother.

[Got it]

To be honest I find men to be far more sensitive than women in many areas though I think individuals will ran the spectrum. I do think men can struggle at putting emotion into words and connect the two together but I think that is not a skill that is considered a priority in young boys.

 

I will say, while my father is very disconnected from his emotions and is a walking timebomb it is is absolutely tied to his young upbringing with his mother and an more often absent father (traveled for work) and being completely ignored. His issues all through his adult years, KISA issues, strings attached offerings, etc. are all tied to still trying to chase the approval and acceptance of his deceased mother and recreating the relationship with women in his romantic relationships. He pulls and then repels, offers the moon and the stars and then suddenly explodes, his every present feelings of abandonment and the craving to fill that void all tied to his childhood.

 

The women from teen years to today never stood a chance and it was never about them. They were only substitutes for his very strong, domineering and emotionally distant and narcissistic mother.

 

My father is exceedingly smart intellectually and can analyze others and their issues fairly well. But he has a curtain down and shrouding what makes him tick and motivates him and refuses therapy. He acknowledges my diagnosis but no interest to putting pen to paper. So while it would seem that he is "abused" by these women who "hit" him when he is just looking for equal treatment. I can say from observing ad nausem he recreates the same scenarios over and over again but continues to see it as a "them" issue. I would bet he sees a double standard issues but I think it is a whole other kettle of fish that he just isn't looking at within himself.

[Got it]

It's a pretty simple concept got. You generally have a better perspective on things when you're an outsider observing. It's such common sense that I would almost think you're trying to be disdainful without looking disdainful because you don't like what I have to say. Since you're usually pretty smart and would easily grasp something that simple.

 

Gaius, I don't find it disdainful or dislike it. I found it comical that your premise is one cannot assess themselves correctly as they are not self aware enough but yet they are having an "honest"/accurate assessment of other persons. How utterly presumptuous to do.

[gaius]

Gaius, I don't find it disdainful or dislike it. I found it comical that your premise is one cannot assess themselves correctly as they are not self aware enough but yet they are having an "honest"/accurate assessment of other persons. How utterly presumptuous to do.

Got, you just said in your last post that your father is incredibly intelligent and good at analyzing others but wasn't great at figuring out his own issues. Which is how most people are. And please, if you're going to try to pretend to not understand a concept I bring up at least wait a few posts to validate the exact thing your're pretending not to understand.

 

So are there any more stories from women about friends of theirs or guy's they've dumped sharing their feelings and how turned on they were by it?

[Taramere]

So are there any more stories from women about friends of theirs or guy's they've dumped sharing their feelings and how turned on they were by it?

 

Very doubtful that any of us on this thread would be interested in discussing sexual turn ons on a thread that is about providing people we care about with emotional or practical support when needed. Why don't you try the sex thread? There's always somebody on there looking for an audience for their "my turn ons" revelations.

[gaius]

Very doubtful that any of us on this thread would be interested in discussing sexual turn ons on a thread that is about providing people we care about with emotional or practical support when needed. Why don't you try the sex thread? There's always somebody on there looking for an audience for their "my turn ons" revelations.

This thread is fine. If NGC wasn't hinting at a sexual dynamic I don't think all the people on the first page would have started talking about their husbands/women they've dated.