Double standard.

[Taramere]

I like the poem "If" by Rudyard Kipling. Even though it's aimed at men and "how to be a man" I think really it's about being a grown up. For all the self help guides, bibles, inspirational quotes etc out there, really pretty much everything you could need to remind you of how to be a grown up is in that poem. The difficult part isn't knowing it; it's putting it into practice.

 

There are people in this world who would read a poem like that and just instinctively love its message. Then there are those whose reaction will be to ask "well, what exactly does he mean that the earth and everything in it will be mine? Sounds like a big con to me. I do all that stuff all the time; keep my head together while everybody's doubting me, walk with kings while keeping the common touch and all that crap. Sill women prefer taller men/men prefer younger women. To hell with that - I'm through with trying to do the right thing..."

 

The people in the latter group you just can't really help very easily. They think of everything in terms of what material, tangible thing or validation handed over by others they can get out of performing a specific action...and unless you can physically give them those things they'll probably see you as being of little use to them.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Taramere

[Bruce Leigh]

If your dumb enough to both be submissive to a woman when she lies to you and display weakness, please, do not pass your genes on. It's for the good of everyone.

 

As i read this i hope i am sensing your sarcasm on the matter

 

You aren't weak if you are dealing with it. Weakness is not facing what is in front of you.

 

Not all problems can be solved. Is a person deemed strong, trying to deal with a problem that maybe only 5% of the worlds population can solve?

 

Bottom line?

 

You can't fit ALL women in the same box on this...no matter how much you want it to fit your jaded paradigm.

 

Not really sure where this comment is directed at but if you changed ALL women to all people i would be more at ease with it.

[WP4046]

I like the poem "If" by Rudyard Kipling. Even though it's aimed at men and "how to be a man" I think really it's about being a grown up. For all the self help guides, bibles, inspirational quotes etc out there, really pretty much everything you could need to remind you of how to be a grown up is in that poem. The difficult part isn't knowing it; it's putting it into practice.

 

There are people in this world who would read a poem like that and just instinctively love its message. Then there are those whose reaction will be to ask "well, what exactly does he mean that the earth and everything in it will be mine? Sounds like a big con to me. I do all that stuff all the time; keep my head together while everybody's doubting me, walk with kings while keeping the common touch and all that crap. Sill women prefer taller men/men prefer younger women. To hell with that - I'm through with trying to do the right thing..."

 

The people in the latter group you just can't really help very easily. They think of everything in terms of what material, tangible thing or validation handed over by others they can get out of performing a specific action...and unless you can physically give them those things they'll probably see you as being of little use to them.

 

 

I;m 6 foot 6 and single. My friend is 5'8 and married

 

 

so what were you saying about women preferring taller men?

[Taramere]

If you can keep your head when people take things out of context

If you can stop yourself from slapping the computer screen when people completely miss the point

then yours is the world and everything that's in it

and, which is more, you won't have to pay out good money to have the laptop screen fixed.

[janedoe67]

As i read this i hope i am sensing your sarcasm on the matter

 

 

 

Not all problems can be solved. Is a person deemed strong, trying to deal with a problem that maybe only 5% of the worlds population can solve?

 

 

 

Not really sure where this comment is directed at but if you changed ALL women to all people i would be more at ease with it.

 

Since this whole thread is about something ELSE that is wrong with "all women," I used the word "women."

[Emilia]

If you can stop yourself from slapping the computer screen when people completely miss the point

I have to work on this.

[gaius]

Correct. I'm not most women What I'm trying to tell you is that not all women think or feel the same way. Many of us do recognise the difficulties men face when it comes to dealing with their issues (that everyone has) and the challenges of not looking vulnerable.

 

You mean if he had not told me about the problem?

You would be wrong. He did this on purpose, he knows me well enough to realise this. He knows that sharing makes a bond stronger, if it's the kind of sharing that both people appreciate.

No, I meant if he had told you. I haven't found there to be anything wrong with sharing what's going on, good or bad, but looking weak and helpless is no good for either party. Women get turned off and you might feel emasculated later on for sharing even if she isn't.

 

I get what you're trying to say but it is like saying Bigfoot exists based on my own personal experience. You should have seen the girl I lost my virginty to. No way I should have got her being a virgin but her boyfriend was everything you and some other women are encouraging guys to be. Very open with his feelings. So she basically fell right into my lap.

[gaius]

Bottom line?

 

You can't fit ALL women in the same box on this...no matter how much you want it to fit your jaded paradigm.

You know some guys will date women way below their status because that's what they feel more comfortable with. Doesn't mean what they're attracted to is completly different than all other guys. It just means they're chosing comfort and safety over base attraction. Which is what I would guess women who claim they love weepy and weak men are doing.

 

There are a very few near universal attractive traits for each sex but being strong as a man is one of them.

[Emilia]

No, I meant if he had told you. I haven't found there to be anything wrong with sharing what's going on, good or bad, but looking weak and helpless is no good for either party. Women get turned off and you might feel emasculated later on for sharing even if she isn't.

He didn't look weak or helpless. He merely told me about a very difficult situation where he didn't see the immediate solution. He was changing something in the company we both work for, pioneering it and as there had been no precedent, there had been no support. He discussed this with me as an adult who had to deal with some of the inevitable challenges.

 

Please don't speak for me or women. You don't know what it's like to be one so don't tell me what turns me off because you don't know.

I get what you're trying to say but it is like saying Bigfoot exists based on my own personal experience. You should have seen the girl I lost my virginty to. No way I should have got her being a virgin but her boyfriend was everything you and some other women are encouraging guys to be. Very open with his feelings. So she basically fell right into my lap.

Well if you think other people's perceptions and experiences that are different from yours is like talking about Bigfoot (a fictional character) then I'm not sure why you are posting on a public forum since clearly you are completely closed off to different views.

 

Personally, I think men who have trouble communicating their challenges and issues to their women don't know how to build bonds with their women. They don't know how to build that emotional link, bring more oxytocin into the relationship. It's an inability to exist in a healthy way in an adult world, basically.

[HomanWater]

I like the poem "If" by Rudyard Kipling. Even though it's aimed at men and "how to be a man"

 

Hmmm.

 

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings,

And never breathe a word about your loss:

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,

 

Sounds like exactly the point of the thread.

[janedoe67]

"Please don't speak for me or women. You don't know what it's like to be one so don't tell me what turns me off because you don't know."

 

THIS ^

[Taramere]

Hmmm.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like exactly the point of the thread.

 

well, if you've taken all your winnings and risked it on one turn of pitch and toss, and lost, it probably is best not to harp on to other people about it. The point of that line, I think, is that when you have the freedom to make a choice and you make a stupid choice it's best not to bend other people's ear incessantly about the consequences.

 

If you look through this thread, the judgements about men who cry and emote in front of their partners aren't coming from women. They're coming mainly from other men. There's a message being repeated over and over that "guys, even if your woman pretends to be sympathetic when you're looking for her shoulder to cry on, really she's just completely turned off by the whole thing."

 

It's a no win scenario for women really. If you respond in a nurturing way, you're "babying men" and if you respond in a way that attempts to be supportive, motivating or inspiring without the nurturing, babying elements then you're being too cold and heartless.

 

The fact is that lots of women are happy to help, nurture and generally be supportive towards upset people - male or female. Unless a guy is absolutely determined to be perceived as an unshakably sexy and superhuman Greek God by every single woman on the planet, he's going to find a woman somewhere who will be only too happy to attend on his woes in a very nurturing way.

[gaius]

He didn't look weak or helpless. He merely told me about a very difficult situation where he didn't see the immediate solution. He was changing something in the company we both work for, pioneering it and as there had been no precedent, there had been no support. He discussed this with me as an adult who had to deal with some of the inevitable challenges.

 

Please don't speak for me or women. You don't know what it's like to be one so don't tell me what turns me off because you don't know.

 

Well if you think other people's perceptions and experiences that are different from yours is like talking about Bigfoot (a fictional character) then I'm not sure why you are posting on a public forum since clearly you are completely closed off to different views.

 

Personally, I think men who have trouble communicating their challenges and issues to their women don't know how to build bonds with their women. They don't know how to build that emotional link, bring more oxytocin into the relationship. It's an inability to exist in a healthy way in an adult world, basically.

I don't think anyone can really be 100% self-aware of what drives them, myself included. So I've always valued observations from other people about what they think drives me. And yes, I compared it to Bigfoot because occasionally you hear stories like the one you told as proof, but then you always find out at the end that the guy that did so got dumped or something similar. Even though that was apparently such a turn on. So it's not entirely convincing when the behavior you've seen from women completely contradicts what you're hearing and have seen.

 

And I'm not closed off to other views. When I hear a woman say "Well, I wasn't really sure about my husband until he started telling me about all his problems in a way I felt I needed to help. That's when I knew he was the man for me." then I might believe. But you never hear that. So far it's only been evidence that suspiciously looks like a guy in a bigfoot suit.

[Got it]

If a woman is down and out, or feeling sad or unconfident about something, men are supposed to comfort her and be there for her.

 

If a man shows any lack of confidence, or negative emotion, he will be abandoned by the woman.

 

I disagree.

[mukkrakker]

If a woman is down and out, or feeling sad or unconfident about something, men are supposed to comfort her and be there for her.

If a man shows any lack of confidence, or negative emotion, he will be abandoned by the woman.

 

Bull.

 

My experience is not borne out by your experience.

 

How many times did this happen to you - what's the common factor? You?

[Under The Radar]

The biggest problem with threads like this is the very real possibility that inexperienced and/or naive MEN will learn to hide their true emotions due to fear of abandonment.

 

 

Sorry, but that is just lame. It's basically men ...... telling other men ...... to not be yourself in order to get and maintain a relationship with a woman. Who would honestly want to hide their true self to win someone over? No matter how physically beautiful she may be on the outside ...... what does that say about their inside?

 

 

*I* know that the premise of this thread is an opinion and not patently true across the board. *I've* experienced genuine concern and empathy over the years (including romantic relationships) from many women. Yes, there are women who will bail on a guy if he admits to insecurity or sheds a tear. Once again, would you want to be with someone like that? More to the point, would you want to be married, with children, to someone like that? If so, buckle up and get ready for a roller coaster ride of biblical proportions. It will not end well, I assure you.

 

 

There are A LOT of inexperienced men on the forum (some lurk and never post) who come for advice. Many are confused, jaded, inexperienced, and nervous when it comes to the opposite sex. Seeing negative content spewed about "don't ever cry, show insecurity, or voice a problem" is HORRIBLE advice for these young men. Yes, don't be a whining, groveling, weak, doormat ...... that has already been established ad infinitum. However, you should never change who you are to get or keep someone in your life.

 

 

I understand the tough guy mentality and how some fellas were raised to hold all of their emotions inside of them. Great, more power to YOU. That doesn't mean every other man on the planet is hardwired that way. Men who feel the need to boisterously proclaim that they need no help from anyone scream insecurity to me. Who the hell NEVER needs any help? Maybe we should start a thread about the lies people tell themselves - LOL.

 

 

My ability to share feelings has ALWAYS served to connect me well with others ...... including sexual relationships. The only time it's failed me is when I don't follow my own instincts, doubt myself, and don't share those feelings. If sharing my deepest thoughts and insecurities with a particular woman causes her to lose attraction for me then so be it. That's an easy day and saved me a great deal of precious time. Nevertheless, I've found in almost every case that is not what happens. What does happen, is we become closer ...... because I've shared some of my vulnerability with her...... and that is, indeed, very attractive to many women.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Training Revelations

[carhill]

What I did in this thread is outline 54 years of *experience*. It may not be *your* experience but fµcking certainly as death will come to both of us is mine and, frankly, your marginalizing of the legitimate experiences of others is disgusting.

 

I'd be tickled ****less to meet ten women this week who gave a good God damn about anything other than themselves. I've been looking for that *all my life*. Other than a few glaring exceptions, which I'm *overjoyed* to share, there are none. Just yesterday, *men* decesnded upon a female friends house to help *her* as a recent cancer patient. Men went out of their way to help *her*. When I needed, asked for and pleaded to get help, what was forthcoming? *Zero*, except from *men*. That's *my* experience. It in no way invalidates *yours* and the difference between us, frankly, is that I don't passive aggressively or directly attack *your* experience simply because it's different. In real life, we might have a come to Jesus. Here, no.

 

Young men have the right to hear *all* experiences and make their own decisions. If their experiences mirror yours, they do; If they mirror mine, they do.

 

Done!

[mukkrakker]

What I did in this thread is outline 54 years of *experience*.

 

Fatalist attitudes have fatalist outcomes.

 

Double done!

[Under The Radar]

What I did in this thread is outline 54 years of *experience*. It may not be *your* experience but fµcking certainly as death will come to both of us is mine and, frankly, your marginalizing of the legitimate experiences of others is disgusting.

 

I'd be tickled ****less to meet ten women this week who gave a good God damn about anything other than themselves. I've been looking for that *all my life*. Other than a few glaring exceptions, which I'm *overjoyed* to share, there are none. Just yesterday, *men* decesnded upon a female friends house to help *her* as a recent cancer patient. Men went out of their way to help *her*. When I needed, asked for and pleaded to get help, what was forthcoming? *Zero*, except from *men*. That's *my* experience. It in no way invalidates *yours* and the difference between us, frankly, is that I don't passive aggressively or directly attack *your* experience simply because it's different. In real life, we might have a come to Jesus. Here, no.

 

Young men have the right to hear *all* experiences and make their own decisions. If their experiences mirror yours, they do; If they mirror mine, they do.

 

Done!

 

 

 

 

Carhill,

 

 

Respectfully, nobody trivialized YOUR experiences; I simply shared MY 40 years of experience ...... which is the opposite of yours.

 

 

Come to Jesus moment ...... was that a threat ?

 

Like you said, "Young men have the right to hear *all* experiences and make their own decisions".

 

 

Quite frankly, I find many of the posts trivializing men's ability to share their emotions disgusting. So, I guess we can agree that some disgusting exchanges and projections are occurring here.

 

 

I stand by the content, and the tone, of my previous post.

[carhill]

"There are A LOT of inexperienced men on the forum (some lurk and never post) who come for advice. Many are confused, jaded, inexperienced, and nervous when it comes to the opposite sex. Seeing negative content spewed about "don't ever cry, show insecurity, or voice a problem" is HORRIBLE advice for these young men. Yes, don't be a whining, groveling, weak, doormat ...... that has already been established ad infinitum. However, you should never change who you are to get or keep someone in your life. "

 

This is what I'm talking about, EXACTLY.

 

You have no respect for me so don't patronize me with your pablum.

 

Have you ever had violence perpetrated upon yourself? Been beaten senseless over something is innocuous as showing your emotions? Have women laugh at you? I hope that *never* has happened nor ever will happen to you.

 

We're debating a 'double standard' here. Does it exist? Yes, it does, and the experiences shared by men here underscore that reality. Does it exist for you? NO!

 

It's the same as any other societal construct. Has every woman been discriminated against? Brutalized by men? Denied privilege, work, advancement? NO! Enough have that laws were enacted to protect them. Men don't 'need' laws. We have our fists. If we want something bad enough, we fight for it. We hurt, we kill. If we don't, we're 'weak', a 'doormat' and all those other pejorative words you used in your posting designed to denigrate and subjugate and demean. 'Don't be weak, don't be a doormat', show your emotions the way that *I* say you should!

 

Yes, master!

[Taramere]

I understand the tough guy mentality and how some fellas were raised to hold all of their emotions inside of them. Great, more power to YOU. That doesn't mean every other man on the planet is hardwired that way. Men who feel the need to boisterously proclaim that they need no help from anyone scream insecurity to me. Who the hell NEVER needs any help? Maybe we should start a thread about the lies people tell themselves - LOL.

 

No man is an island. It does seem that in the US, though, there is an extremely strong emphasis on individualism that perhaps makes people (particularly men) feel more pressure to express a strong tendency towards self sufficiency.

 

I've been discussing this thread with a male friend and I put to him that women face something of a dilemma when it comes to offering men support. We can easily find ourselves accused of being smothering or emasculating in the process of trying to help. Depending on the man, of course. Some men have no problems, as you say, acknowledging their emotional needs and discussing them.

 

His response was that the best way a woman can support a man is in the following terms.

 

"i know this is the most important thing to you. and therefore it's the most important thing to me"

"at the same time, i know the way i can help most is to stay out of your way and just let you know i'm behind you"

 

("this" would be an issue that is consuming a lot of the man's time and energy...it could be anything - work, sport etc - that's important to him but that's posing a problem at that particular time)

I have my own views on that, but will be interested to hear what other people think.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Taramere

[BradJacobs]

Some women like seeing the vulnerable side of a man and others don't.

 

Some men like being vulnerable and others don't.

 

It's really that simple.

 

The easiest play as a man is to not show his vulnerabilities. Suck it up. "Be a man." If you let your guard down for anything other than death of a family member, friend or your dog then you're just not a man anymore.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that you will be forgiven for getting angry and having a temper far easier than if you're too emotional.

[Silly_Girl]

Some women like seeing the vulnerable side of a man and others don't.

 

Some men like being vulnerable and others don't.

 

It's really that simple.

 

Yes. Nail on head.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that you will be forgiven for getting angry and having a temper far easier than if you're too emotional.

 

This is not how I feel (now - possibly conditioning in my younger years meant I did once) or how some of my close friends feel, but I fear you are right. This is how my parents and many others feel. I wish it weren't so.

[Under The Radar]

"There are A LOT of inexperienced men on the forum (some lurk and never post) who come for advice. Many are confused, jaded, inexperienced, and nervous when it comes to the opposite sex. Seeing negative content spewed about "don't ever cry, show insecurity, or voice a problem" is HORRIBLE advice for these young men. Yes, don't be a whining, groveling, weak, doormat ...... that has already been established ad infinitum. However, you should never change who you are to get or keep someone in your life. "

 

This is what I'm talking about, EXACTLY.

 

You have no respect for me so don't patronize me with your pablum.

 

Have you ever had violence perpetrated upon yourself? Been beaten senseless over something is innocuous as showing your emotions? Have women laugh at you? I hope that *never* has happened nor ever will happen to you.

 

We're debating a 'double standard' here. Does it exist? Yes, it does, and the experiences shared by men here underscore that reality. Does it exist for you? NO!

 

It's the same as any other societal construct. Has every woman been discriminated against? Brutalized by men? Denied privilege, work, advancement? NO! Enough have that laws were enacted to protect them. Men don't 'need' laws. We have our fists. If we want something bad enough, we fight for it. We hurt, we kill. If we don't, we're 'weak', a 'doormat' and all those other pejorative words you used in your posting designed to denigrate and subjugate and demean. 'Don't be weak, don't be a doormat', show your emotions the way that *I* say you should!

 

Yes, master!

 

 

 

 

Carhill,

 

 

I am sincerely sorry for the trauma and abuse you have suffered during your life ...... I am not without injuries or scars, either.

 

 

Concerning this thread ...... we will just have to agree to disagree.

[thefooloftheyear]

Its got absolutely nothing to do with macho, tough guy mentality...

 

Some of the responses are pretty typical...The feminization and gender nuetral bullshyt has been going on for decades in our society..This is just part and parcel of that...

 

Notice how you rarely hear the term "man's man" anymore? It used to be a positive characterization of a strong and self assured male figure..

 

It is quite ironic how when the shyt hits the fan though(like it did for 9/11 and Hurricane Sandy) how all of a sudden the mans man is everyone's best buddy....

 

TFY