Children and how the **** up your marriage.

[lollipopspot]

Some guys yearn for fatherhood and be an active and involved parent. The other 90% of us just kind stumble into it and accept that fatherhood is just kind of part-and-parcel of having a female partner even though it's not really on our life dream list.

 

I don't think that this is true. I think to the extent that it is, there should be a LOT more vasectomies, and many fewer fathers. But when I suggest that, a lot of men seem to get up in arms and profess how much they personally want children and that people are odd to not want children. So I have to think that a lot of men actually do want children and fatherhood on their list of life dreams.

[HermioneG]

It's not uncommon that for some men and women having children and becoming a parent doesn't mesh with the reality of actually parenting and accepting that for awhile the caring for the children will take center stage, especially with a newborn and until they are in school full time, and that the parent's ego and freedom to come and go is taxed.

 

The parent who is most often agreived by the sacrifices and changes in their lifestyle will drop the ball if they see their spouse is willing to pick up the slack and take on more of the child rearing responsibility. Couple that with a spouse who doesn't want to nag or rain on their spouse's free time will most often suck it in but that in itself can and will develop into resentment.

 

Mature and grounded spouses understand the meaning of change and sacrifice and know they can handle the cycles in marriage and parenting that at times requires putting their own needs on the back burner for awhile. This type of understanding also applies to starting a business, getting a degree, building a career. It's not fun at times and requires great commitment, risk, and the belief that in the end the hard work will payoff. It's a vision of long term as opposed to the short term.

 

Ironically, male or females, who get into affairs, are in an essence rebelling against adulthood and parenthood. Ironically, while in an affair, some cheaters project an image of being such a loving parent and are usually the least involved and neglectful of their children's everyday needs.

 

I'm sure my comment may bristle some WS's. I believe WS's do love their children but can compartmentalize their children and marriage in an odd sort of way. Usually, it's wanting an intact family and life partner with someone on the side. Usually, it's a pattern of passive agressiveness and conflict avoidance.

 

In hindsight, it's obvious what anyone could have said or done differently. Accept that you cannot change the past but you can learn and grow from it.

 

 

My spouse is the first to admit this now. At the time? He thought he was a rock star parent and had the OW snowed.

 

Meanwhile ? I remember our then toddler grabbing his leg to try and get him not to leave the house one night and stay and play with him.

 

Gosh.

 

I had not thought about that in a long time. That makes my stomach hurt.

[Spark1111]

"

If a man chooses to MATE with a woman for the purpose of bearing his offspring, and she devotes herself maniacally to their well being, what the bloody hell is wrong with that? That is procreation of the species, the strongest biological urge there is.

 

He married well, I would say.

 

If he grows resentful of her lack of attention, HE can pick up the phone, find a good sitter, make the arrangements for an overnight where they can have at it like rabbits"

 

Too effing right!!!

 

Ok... sorry that was another small rant <sits on hands>

 

 

My H's fOW was a d mom of one young child. Every other weekend, several school holidays and one month every summer, her xH had their child at his home due to court ordered custody sharing.

 

I thought WAIT A MINUTE, she had time ALONE??????

 

Two weekend a month? A full week here and there? A MONTH in the summer???

 

I, too, could have been running naked around here chasing him!

 

But, I had three kids, several dogs, a cat, and an aging parent, PLUS work to manage.

 

I could barely use the bathroom without interruptions, let alone seduce my H.

 

Please, get real. want that action? let's go away where there is no looming responsibilities.....like an affair.

 

plan it, book it, I'll so be there with lacy underwear.

[atreides]

I am a father of 3 boys ranging from 2 - 10 years old. Here is my 2 cents from a Father and H's perspective.

 

First my background:

My wife and I married in our early 20's while still in college. Time together was short but focused "quality time" because of our studies and night class schedules as we both also worked full time jobs.

My wife actually wanted kids year 2 of our marriage and I did not, I wanted to wait until at least one of us preferably she, had graduated. The issue was I was a year ahead of her so we compromised, we would try when I graduated.

It did not go to plan, we had son1 8 months before my graduation which lead to one of the most difficult times we experienced. We had to really schedule things down to a T, my wife took a couple months off and did online studying while I still worked full time and kept most of my classes.

We were two ships passing in the night most of the time brought together by making bottles, changing diapers... baby needs basically. Mind you this followed a period of sexless months during her pregnancy as she miscarried the first time and she and I (looking back) allowed her emotional worries take precedence over "myth busting" sex during pregnancy.

I graduated and "time" became more available but son1 consumed most of "our time."

I understood this and also put a lot of time helping raise my first son. This differs I guess from your H as he seemed to resent raising the kids but I wanted to be a major part of my kids life and not just the working father role. Mind you my wife also worked full time and she wanted just as much time. I think what saved us the most after we graduated was I was fortunate to have made a lot of money back then and we went on vacations quite a lot but the economy turned which lead to major financial problems and son 2 was on the way.

Our second son was born and now we are tight on money. We were working new full time jobs and my wife started to focus more so on the children in my view as a parent and H who also wanted just as much time with them but wanted to budget "our time" as well. I started to ask her for "our time" and got "I'm sick, tired, not in the mood, stop obligating me, why do men want sex all the time..., if you would make more money I would not have to work and could spend time with you" and the list went on and on. During this time, my mother-in-law moved in which added extra stress but also had its perks at times, helping with daycare costs in part. I only bring her up, because her attitude was and still is, that once you have children they are to have all your time and be damned with romance and "our time" and my wife subscribed to this.

So we would argue about "our time" while we both took care of the kids, splitting the load of our kids needs of morning and night (i took the night and she the morning) which lead to budgeting "our time" almost impossible to do. I became very frustrated but never resented the kids or my wife but looked at it as a difference of ideology on how kids should be raised while keeping the romance.

School starts for son 1 but 3 things happened during this time which lead to a drastic change in our M. We met more people which meant sharing our new friends lives which includes the good and the bad (divorces from infidelity and the pain it caused) with them and my brother-in-law cheated and left his existing family to make a new one and the 3rd was a major argument and incident between us that almost lead to D.

 

All of his started to shake my wife up a bit in my opinion as she started to ask to spend more time together. This started after a very dry period where i did not even bother anymore to be with her in hopes of a wake up call. I think a combination of life variables lead to my wife changing her perspective to the point where she tells her mom that she is wrong that when the "chickens leave the coop there still has to be an "us."

 

This lead to date nights, overnights at hotels and the "just us" vacations...

 

We had son 3 but don't have "our time" issues, we make the time, make the arrangements we need to have our time. The stress is still there and the responsibilities as well, but we both work for the "us" at the same time.

 

So what I learned from all of this is that CHILDREN are not the problem, we are. I have seen childless Ms get bored of each other and loose the "our time." I have also seen my my best friend's wives cheat while they took care of the children. So clearly it is not the kids, we need to look further, your H even without kids my have cheated, we may never know. What is the lesson is that we can always make "our time" despite the odds and the responsibilities, we must never lose that drive and to NOT take what means most to us for granted.

Marriage (or cultural equivalent) is the foundation of "Family" and without a good foundation, the house, the family cannot stand.

Edited March 13, 2014 by atreides

[waterwoman]

2. NO, you are not showing love to your husband when you take care of the children. Unless the two of you are spending the time together with them, then it is as if you are both living separate lives. No husband will think that time with him and sex with him equals time with the children. Many husbands resent their children (albeit many dare not say it) because of this.

 

 

 

This doesn't surprise me I guess but I don't understand it. When I see h caring for the children, interacting happily with them, I feel more in love with him than at almost any time.

[atreides]

"

If a man chooses to MATE with a woman for the purpose of bearing his offspring, and she devotes herself maniacally to their well being, what the bloody hell is wrong with that? That is procreation of the species, the strongest biological urge there is.

 

whew, what a statement void of the ingredient you yourself are looking for. I would like to meet that person who marries just for mating... what a conversation that would be in context of results and expectations.

At least with our own "species" since that is the context, the urge is not to mate but to have sex, we do have declining birth rates but that is besides the point.

 

He married well, I would say.

 

If he grows resentful of her lack of attention, HE can pick up the phone, find a good sitter, make the arrangements for an overnight where they can have at it like rabbits"

 

Too effing right!!!

 

This could be done by either of you, the issue as with my first post is not the children and you should not make it that nor defend it from a position of this "mating" context. An M can and does fail without children as well, the problem is that we put excuses for our own issues on why we lose interest in our M. We further compound or problems with statements like, find a sitter and all is well... no it's not, as it does not even address the real issue.

It is very difficult especially when one checks out of the M for the one remaining to hold the load and help reel in the lost spouse. This usually leads to both checking out and very little hope for the M.

Keep the flame.

[oldshirt]

This doesn't surprise me I guess but I don't understand it. When I see h caring for the children, interacting happily with them, I feel more in love with him than at almost any time.

 

It's different for men. My wife is one of if not the best mother on th planet. I respect that and appreciate that about her it her, but her mothering abilities really do not endear her to me or make me love her or feel any more connected to her.

 

What determines how close and and connected I feel towards her is determined by how she treats me.

 

Sure, if she was a drug addicted, neglectful, abusive parent, that would be a detriment. But how she parents really doesn't have a major impact on my feelings for her. It's how she treats me that does.

 

If she gives me the brush off and treats me like I don't matter, then she is just another woman doting on kids. There's 3 billion more out there just like her.

 

What makes her special in my eyes is when she treats me like I'm special to her.

[waterwoman]

Atreides - those quotes were not mine originally. However I did agree that being a good mother to the children of the couple is a valuable thing. And it should be appreciated by the parent who is less involved rather than seen as a problem.

[waterwoman]

It's different for men. My wife is one of if not the best mother on th planet. I respect that and appreciate that about her it her, but her mothering abilities really do not endear her to me or make me love her or feel any more connected to her.

 

What determines how close and and connected I feel towards her is determined by how she treats me.

 

Sure, if she was a drug addicted, neglectful, abusive parent, that would be a detriment. But how she parents really doesn't have a major impact on my feelings for her. It's how she treats me that does.

 

If she gives me the brush off and treats me like I don't matter, then she is just another woman doting on kids. There's 3 billion more out there just like her.

 

What makes her special in my eyes is when she treats me like I'm special to her.

 

Does that apply to other things she does well? Would you love her as an artist if she painted the most beautiful images. Would you love her as a doctor if she saved lives? Or is the only thing that makes you love her is what she does for you?

[oldshirt]

It's different for men. My wife is one of if not the best mother on th planet. I respect that and appreciate that about her it her, but her mothering abilities really do not endear her to me or make me love her or feel any more connected to her.

 

What determines how close and and connected I feel towards her is determined by how she treats me.

 

Sure, if she was a drug addicted, neglectful, abusive parent, that would be a detriment. But how she parents really doesn't have a major impact on my feelings for her. It's how she treats me that does.

 

If she gives me the brush off and treats me like I don't matter, then she is just another woman doting on kids. There's 3 billion more out there just like her.

 

What makes her special in my eyes is when she treats me like I'm special to her.

 

 

...on closer thought, maybe this is where men and women each stumble. People tend to treat others in a manner that they would like. Since women would often appreciate a man more if her were doting on kids, she might think that her husband will love and appreciate her by devoting herself to the kids more. Unfortunately it may not work that way at all with a lot of men.

 

And men too may think that their wife would love and appreciate them if they focus much of their attention on to the wife and not dote excessively on the kids, but to the wife it's just an extra pressure on her and she sees him as not paying enough attention and appreciation to the kids and she grows resentful of that.

 

The golden rule is treat others as you would like to be treated.

 

The PLATINUM rule is treat others as THEY want to be treated.

 

In our case I wanted to be treated with more attention and appreciate and my wife wanted me to be more involved in the home and kid's lives.

 

It took years and lots of fights and hurt feelings and then finally a couple different marital counselors to arrive to that conclusion and learn to give the other what they needed to feel loved and appreciated as opposed to giving the other what we wanted.

Edited March 13, 2014 by oldshirt

[oldshirt]

I want to add one more thing that I think is related to this topic. There were times in our past that both of us probably would've liked to have packed up, moved on and found someone else.

 

A stroke of insight came from listening to th Dr Laura show on the radio. A couple had called in complaining that she was overwhelmed with the kids and that he was doing his own thing and wanting more attention and sex etc. And he was complaining she was brushing him off and not giving him the time of day and both of them were ready to pull the plug and move on. Both of them were also getting eyes for other people and thinking about grazing in greener pastures.

 

Dr Laura pointed out to her that any new man in her life would also want sex, attention and appreciation.

 

And she pointed out to the guy that any woman he took up with would also want children of her own if she were childless or want help raising the ones she had if did already have kids.

 

So in other words they would be right back to square one with other people and nothing would fundamentally change. They would just have the additional stress and conflict of being in blended families.

 

So why each give more of what the other wants and remain an intact family?

 

Upon that sinking in I realized if I found someone else, I'd still have to be a good husband and father. And I think my wife saw the light that no other man would ever want to help her raise her kids without being sexual.

 

We each had to give a little, so we might as well give to each other.

[waterwoman]

Your last post makes sense. Problem is I still don't see what I could have done unilaterally to improve things. I didn't want anyone else, I wanted him. But I wasn't going to neglect other areas of my life when h wasn't there to take up the slack as he should have been. I really felt trapped by my obligations and h seemed to refuse to take any if it on.

[jnel921]

My 2 cents. We have 3wonderful kids between us. They are a part of our lives. We incorporate them into every decision we make.

 

With that said, when our WS cheat they can't blame the BS or the kids when they decide they are not getting enough attention. That is a selfish decision that factors no one but the two cheaters involved.

[yellowmaverick]

I was 31 when I had my first child and 38 when I had my third, so we hadn’t exactly rushed into things. H was the one who wanted babies but had resigned himself to never having any if he stayed with me.

 

I could have written this. I was about the same age when I had my oldest and youngest - I just have more children in between. H was the one who wanted "a bunch" of kids; he married me knowing that we might not have had any.

 

As time went on my children got closer to me, I was the one who was always there every morning and night time – I did the homework with them, I read to them, I cooked their meals, I got them up in the morning and took them to school.

 

Yep. 100% of homework, bedtime reading, washing clothes, making meals, disciplining, and teaching them anything fell on me, even though I was working full-time in a tougher job field than he was. H gave them baths and coached sports, but not much else. As a result, my children became more attached to me.

 

I was also carrying almost all of the burden of the household tasks. I was the go-to guy for everything.

 

Yep, again. The "trouble" started when I became so tired and had two surgeries for injuries caused by the stress I was putting on my body from all of the physical work. When I asked, and then begged, him to step and be a real partner, he completely shut down. He and I were raised complete opposites - he was very spoiled and very entitled. My family was comfortable, but not wealthy. I worked for everything I had, including my education. Everything was fine in our relationship (for him anyway) as long as I expected nothing from him. When I expected him to step up, he had his affair.

[gettingstronger]

Yes, my husband was also a self centered jerk that could not handle the lack of attention that is a normal part of raising kids. I asked several times if maybe we should step down the kids activities and what not and he always said he was so proud and happy to provide such a great life for them and what a great mom I was. He wanted it all, the perfect family and undivided attention on a woman, the ego stroke. Our OW would actually travel to meet him and miss out on her own kids. He acknowledged she was a terrible mother to do this, but for whatever reason he was ok being on the receiving end. He hurts everyday for betraying his children and is thankful that they know so very little of what he did. He went through a huge period of self loathing for being such a jerk to the family that treated him so well.

[oldshirt]

I think we all need to keep in mind that historically and even in countless cultures today, men didn't/don't really do ANYTHING with child rearing except for maybe disciple or teaching boys sports and trade skills when they're older.

 

 

Men doing child rearing and housekeeping tasks at all is very recent development in western cultures.

 

 

I'm not saying that's right or the way it should be, but people need to keep that in perspective.

[oldshirt]

Your last post makes sense. Problem is I still don't see what I could have done unilaterally to improve things. I didn't want anyone else, I wanted him. But I wasn't going to neglect other areas of my life when h wasn't there to take up the slack as he should have been. I really felt trapped by my obligations and h seemed to refuse to take any if it on.

 

 

 

I was just sharing an experience in my own past. Not really suggesting that it was something you should be considering.

[gettingstronger]

Old shirt, I get that and agree however, being grateful and loyal should be part of all cultures. My husband was neither and is now sick over his actions hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

[oldshirt]

One thing I do want to say is that I was fully aware of and accepting that kids coming would change things and that I wasn't going to get as much attention or as much sexuality/romance or as much fun and enjoyment as I was used to.

 

 

...I was just very ill prepared for how much things were going to change and I myself was surprised by the impact that it would have on me and the impact it would have on my feelings for her and for our relationship.

 

 

The real kicker was, I thought that I was a great husband and father.

 

 

I never drank. I don't smoke. Never chased skirts, cheated or even flirted, teased or bantered with other women. I didn't go out with buddies much at all. I've never raised a hand and very very very rarely ever even raised my voice to her.

 

 

I thought I was helping and thought I was doing things around the house.

 

 

It was a real shock to me when she finally blew a gasket and told me how dissatisfied she was and how upset, disappointed and resentful she was of me that I wasn't doing enough and that she felt alone and that she might as well be on her own for all the good I was doing her.

 

 

I admit, the thought went through my mind to just let her go. Frankly if she would have filed and was serious, I probably would have fought for my fair share and then let her go.

 

 

When we got into counseling, she said her piece and then I let loose both barrels. I thought she was the one hating on me and dissatisfied with me and who had lost all attraction and desire for me. I thought I was still in love and thought I was the one "fighting for the marriage."

 

 

It was the counselor that was able to show me that in fact I was the one that was half out the door and was the one checking out and was the one that was wanting to bolt.

 

 

He pretty much called her out too and layed it out there that if she was going to blow me off and put me at number 327 on her priority list, that I would in fact check out and move on.

 

 

I was quite frank with her that I would be there for the kids and that I we could effectively coparent from separate households.

 

 

It took time but she saw the light that she had to be nice to me and treat me well even while the kids were little other wise I was going to be gone and soon the kids would be gone too. It took counseling and some heart to hearts as well as some knock down drag out fights for her to realize she couldn't put me on the shelf for another ten years and then have this happy reunion and fun again once the kids were out of the house.

 

 

I had my comeuppance too. I had to face the fact that I had checked out and that my loss of connection with her had lead me to check out of my home and family responsibilities too. I had become the slob husband that came home plopped in the chair and withdrew into my own world and didn't want the kids or anyone bugging me or getting in my way.

 

 

it was a viscious circle that fueled us both and put both of us on a downward spiral.

 

 

The only thing that saved us is we were both able to admit we wanted to be happy together and wanted things to work out. And like many long term couples have said, we both wanted to divorce, it was just that we never both wanted to divorce at the same time. There was always one of us that said no and managed to keep the other one from doing it.

[rumbleseat]

In our marriage, we knew from a very early point that due to the health issues of one of our children, we would always have to be right there with them. Hiring a sitter for a few hours is a rare treat, and an overnight is out of the question. As far as we can see, there will not be a change in this, even once they reach adulthood.

 

That being said, we have had to try and find other ways of putting each first whenever possible. We have " date nights" at home, etc.

 

There have been plenty of times that I have been too tired, stressed or just plain worn out, but we try and talk about it. I can't claim success every time, but we do try.

 

My h and I have talked about his a quite a bit since it happened, and one thing that he said was that in his family, he was the youngest and the only boy. He was very spoiled and given lots of extra attention on the one hand, but treated in a very abusive (physically) fashion on the other. His parents would use attention,etc. to pit one child against the other. It was really unhealthy.

 

He has said that it too a long time for him to realize that, once our kids came along,that he could no longer be the top priority. It wasn't an issue of ignoring him while only paying attention to our kids, in some weird way, when he felt that he was being neglected, he would revert back to his childish thinking where getting 100% of the attention equated to being loved.

 

The thing is that I only had no many hours in a day, and I couldn't be 100% attentive to him and be 100% attentive to our kids. Something had to give, and I assumed that as an adult, he would understand that.

 

When you have kids, that simply isn't possible, but with his is, she had nothing but time to dote on him, which part of him felt was his due.

 

He's had a lot of therapy since then, and things are much better. Before his a , he hadn't really opend up to me about how bad things were when he was a kid, but since he has, I've asked him to tell me if those old feelings start welling up again so that we can face them together.

Again, I can't claim that we are always successful, but it's so much better than it was before.

[oldshirt]

Old shirt, I get that and agree however, being grateful and loyal should be part of all cultures. My husband was neither and is now sick over his actions hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

 

 

 

I was throwing that out there in general and not directing it towards you or anyone else.

 

 

And yeah I agree with you people do need to be appreciative and collaborative in their efforts.

 

 

That is probably one advantage that traditional cultures have over modern western culture is that since they have distinct gender roles, they each have a little more sense of teamwork and interdependence than here where the gender lines are blurred and people are being expected to do things they were never raised to do and for things they probably don't have much natural instinct for.

 

 

I may be a great husband and father when compared to a historical culture, but compared to modern western culture I really suck as a comother.

[atreides]

Atreides - those quotes were not mine originally. However I did agree that being a good mother to the children of the couple is a valuable thing. And it should be appreciated by the parent who is less involved rather than seen as a problem.

 

That's just it... he is using excuses, which then you got caught up in as a defense against his infidelity.

 

Being a good parent should be appreciated and yes more so if the other cannot or does not want to be, but that is besides the point. Your question is... what you could have done different.

 

Let us say for just a hypothetical that you never had children... right? The children are the excuse he gave... so for this hypothetical, what guarantee do you have that he would have been faithful without children?

You are playing the same role as many BS do, "what did i do wrong or could have done different?"

 

In the end, nothing... what counts is you tried for a while to get your H interested in you with all the responsibilities/challenges and are most importantly a good mother and doing right by yourself and family.

Cheating is not about "we" or "us" it is about "me, myself and I"

You do not need to waste your time doing something your H should be.. and that is looking into himself to find what broke inside and to fix it.

[waterwoman]

Thanks all. This is a really interesting discussion.

 

I'll be honest with you I have really struggled making sense of H's behaviour. I could not see how an intelligent, loving, generous man could morph into this creature. I thought that he must see how unfair he was being.

 

Maybe he was also wondering how a woman who had always loved him so much and treated him so could neglect him. How she could see him as the last of her chores. I had assumed he'd appreciate what I did and it would count as a massive deposit in the love bank. But I was just wasting my time in that area. I didn't want to run myself into the ground, I didn't want to end up medicated for years life due to stress and depression.

 

Empathy is the key and a pair of magic glasses to see through each other's eyes.

 

Atreides - to answer your question, would this have happened without children? No. We were a very very close couple, had been together for 16 years when we had DS1 and although we had separate interests, we were both happiest together. Being with him felt like coming home. We were 2 halves of a whole. Much as I adore my children and I couldn't be without them, I don't think we should have had babies as the couple we were then. It was an almost joking discussion about having a child and then ... wham....I was pregnant within a month. No chance to dither and wonder and change our minds. I had assumed as I was over 30 and that we both smoked in those days, it would take ages.

 

I am just wondering whether anyone thinks a man's childhood experiences if being fathered impact on how well they do? H's parents separated and eventually divorced in the worst, most acrimonious, long drawnout way possible. The kids were lied to, gaslighted, given false hopes for YEARS. H refused to have anything to do with his father until his early teens and then stopped seeing him again until he met me when he was 21. He was desperate for his father to love him and be proud if him. But as neither do 'talking about feelings' they had to get outside a bottle of scotch first.... FIL died when I was pregnant with Ds1. H went off the rails and I reared DS more or less on my own for about a year. Really awful, my heart bled for him but I could do nothing to reach him.

 

H knew what sort of father he didn't want to be, he just didn't know what sort of father he should be.

[waterwoman]

Just wanted to say how much this "barks orders at you like a pissed off drill sargent" made me laugh [grin]

[waterwoman]

The other question that needs to be asked is where was the compassion and the love from him? When he saw me weeping with tiredness, when he saw me struggling to make everything work, when he saw me get up from dinner, and wash the dishes and then sit down with my child to help her with her maths hw after a long day at work. When he saw the huge circles under my eyes and the sheer look of defeat in my face why why why didn't he want to rush in and fix things for me. I had given up asking him partly because, yes oldshirt, sometimes he didn't do things thoroughly enough or in a timely fashion, but mostly because he got irritable when asked or said he'd do it later (which never happened). I was as nervous of him as the kids were.

 

He rode in on his white charger for his OW so he could be her KISA. Why couldn't he have been my KISA? I surely needed one for many years.