Do you really hate "religion"...

[writergal]

To the religious posters here I forgot to add, stop arguing with us who don't believe in religion if you want to know WHY we don't believe.

 

Don't ask a question if you don't like the answer.

[maturityassets]

It's just not psychologically healthy in my opinion. It strives on feelings of guilt and shame which is based on a nasty human habit of "ressentiment". Yes the belief in its Christ relieves you some of that guilt but its just thrown onto another person, God himself the judge that deemed us guilty. Also you are constantly reminded even after you are saved that someone was punished for you just to demonstrate how much god loves you despite being unworthy. It just seems like an endless cycle of guilt and shame.

 

I would much rather have people stand on their own two feet and accept themselves. Come to understand why they do the things they do out of anxiety or fear in order to realize they can become something higher. That they have the will to good health and to appreciate life despite the tragedies that occur. That is the philosophy of individualism I stand on rather than be co-dependent for relief.

 

We are beyond good and evil. Moralizing actions is just the same as rationalizations, trying to deceive ourselves or others by judgement. We people on love shack know all about the problems of rationalizations when we are in the middle of a break up. How we will try to convince ourselves to say happy birthday to an ex because we just want to be a "good person" rather than just be honest and say we want communication with them in the hopes they take us back. To deny your egoism is dishonesty in my view.

[pureinheart]

Well, many of the Evangelical Christians I know personally have a lot of empathy for others. They bring clothing to the homeless. Cook, serve or deliver meals to the poor. Go on mission trips to build houses for people in impoverished countries. Deliver supplies, food and medicine to the poor in impoverished countries. Buy and deliver toys to poor children in this country, plus school supplies and basic needs. I know Christians who devote their life to this cause, and are doing these things on a weekly basis. I would hardly call that lacking in empathy for others. Many Christians I know also donate a lot of their money to provide for the poor. Many are also sponsoring poor children in other countries by sending money on a monthly basis for their care.

 

 

I just wanted to point that out, for those who are claiming Evangelical Christians are lacking in empathy.

 

When they deliver toys to children or help out at the homeless shelter, or send a check every month to a poor family, they are doing so out of the goodness of their heart. My mother, for years, delivered Meals On Wheels to the poor elderly. I did that at one point myself. We deliver the meals, set it up on their table, engage in brief small talk, and then are on our way to deliver to the next person. We are not there prostheletizing. When we sign up to serve meals at the homeless shelter, we are there serving food to people of all faiths. We are not there prostheletizing. When my son teaches work skills to the homeless so they could potentially get a job, he is there teaching work skills. He is not prostheletizing. When my mother is making quilts to ship overseas to the poor, she has no contact with those she is working to help. This is not self serving. It is doing God's will by serving those in need. Why do you try to find fault with that?

 

I tell you Kathy, I have a newly found respect for evangelicals. I think until now there was a lack of understanding concerning what they actually go through- they truly live in the sense of we are in the world, but not of it. That's faith in action IMO.

 

Funny how God works, this isn't the direction I had intended this thread to go, but it was the direction it was supposed to go…thank you Kathy:love:

[OpenBook]

The universe created ITSELF due to national evolutionary processes.

 

Was that also written into our Constitution? sorry, couldn't resist...

 

Wow, you really do hate religion. It is sobering to read your posts. Just to let you know (in case it might bring you any comfort & joy), I am listening. Not quite sure how to respond, but I am listening. I'm with Allumere - as painful as this might be, at least we're all trying, putting it out there.

[writergal]

Was that also written into our Constitution? sorry, couldn't resist...

 

Wow, you really do hate religion. It is sobering to read your posts. Just to let you know (in case it might bring you any comfort & joy), I am listening. Not quite sure how to respond, but I am listening. I'm with Allumere - as painful as this might be, at least we're all trying, putting it out there.

 

I don't hate religion. I despise it as an institution and what it stands for. The only spiritual belief system that remotely interests me is Buddhism, which is also institutional.

 

What irritates me is how manipulative this thread is: it asks a question with no intention of actually engaging in a direct conversation that is two-way. It quickly devolved into a heated debate and pages later, still no conversation has taken place.

 

My mother's uncle was a Catholic priest. He got kicked out of his parish because he wanted to go help the American soldiers at the end of World War II in Germany collect the Holocaust survivors and administer aide to them. So you know what he did? He gladly left his parish, went to Germany, joined a group of American soldiers, went to two death camps where he helped survivors to leave the camps. He told me these stories when I was little. I find it IRONIC that his Catholic parish would kick him out for wanting to go do good abroad. I never despised my mother's uncle for being a priest either. That was his choice. Just like it's your choice to be part of Christianity whatever your faith is.

 

But do NOT preach to me about how great religion is after I've told you how much I despise it and given valid reasons why. Not once have you or anyone religious here in this thread actually expressed understanding. Just a lot of preaching and deflecting, but no real understanding or acknowledgement. And that is so par for the course isn't it, from religious people in these conversations. They can't give once INCH to someone who doesn't believe because it goes against their evangelical responsibility to spread the good word of god to targeted sinners like myself who is an Atheist.

 

Well I have news for you. You'll never convert me. Sorry. I spent more than half my life chained up in the Catholic religion, a prisoner to ridiculous dogma created BY men not some celestial deity, to tell me how to live my life, to confess my sins too? I don't think so.

[pureinheart]

Was that also written into our Constitution? sorry, couldn't resist...

 

Wow, you really do hate religion. It is sobering to read your posts. Just to let you know (in case it might bring you any comfort & joy), I am listening. Not quite sure how to respond, but I am listening. I'm with Allumere - as painful as this might be, at least we're all trying, putting it out there.

 

I can truly relate to this statement. I was never a hater, meaning I didn't hate anything really. This was experienced a while ago and the results of this deep-rooted hate were changes in my entire body chemistry, it was REALLY unhealthy for me. I literally became sick physically and emotionally. It's been a hard/long road out, but I'm out.

 

Now, I avoid people that have this type of hate, I have to because it reminds of some horrible experiences. It's hard to talk to hate, just like it's hard to talk to an alcoholic that is under the influence.

 

Hate is deadly, plain and simple.

[writergal]

I can truly relate to this statement. I was never a hater, meaning I didn't hate anything really. This was experienced a while ago and the results of this deep-rooted hate were changes in my entire body chemistry, it was REALLY unhealthy for me. I literally became sick physically and emotionally. It's been a hard/long road out, but I'm out.

 

Now, I avoid people that have this type of hate, I have to because it reminds of some horrible experiences. It's hard to talk to hate, just like it's hard to talk to an alcoholic that is under the influence.

 

Hate is deadly, plain and simple.

 

Spare me your convenient sob story. You started this thread with the intention of inciting a heated debate between yourself, other religious posters, and non-believers like myself and others here..just so you could justify why religion and Christianity as so great and do so much good for the world.

 

If you genuinely wanted to know why people despise Christianity then I think your goals would have been different; not to evangelize, not to attack, ignore or show the disrespect that you have shown here..in this thread..that you created.

 

Take responsibility for your actions, OP. Isn't that one of the tenets of Christianity? You had ulterior motives for this thread which you accomplished. Good for you.

[endlessabyss]

Religion is evil and allows evil people to get away with doing evil. Look at all the priests who sexually molest their parishioners. Do you know how the Church punishes those priests? The Church gives them a large retirement sum and paid-for house, and most of the time those priests STILL are active in their parish. The Vatican is notorious for cover-ups of pedophile priests. Priests never go to jail for their pedophilia. That's why I don't like it or trust religion. That's why religion is and always will be EVIL. Period.

 

Christianity is a plague on society for reasons that myself and others have mentioned here. Yet the religious posters in this thread remain steadfast in their denial of reality and respond to criticism by ramping up their aggressive evangelical preaching, which is a deflection tactic.

 

Again, I'll use the quote from the tv show House, where he says, "If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people."

 

Just because I despise religion -- Christianity especially -- doesn't mean I don't give back to my community,and doesn't mean I'm not a kind person. I don't need to hide behind religion to do good deeds and there are plenty of non-profit organizations that are NOT religious-based which do good deeds.

 

Common lies that "Christians" spew:

 

-Atheists have no morals

 

-Evolution is just a theory (micro evolution is a FACT, macro evolution is a theory). Evolution DID happen. Stop saying god created everything. There is no creator. Don't you get it? The universe created ITSELF due to national evolutionary processes. There wasn't any celestial alien being that created earth and humans and animals etc.

 

-The U.S. was founded on Christianity. Biggest lie ever. The founding fathers of America were a mix of agnostic, atheist and deist. NOT CHRISTIAN. Christianity was written into the Constitution after-the-fact.

 

20 Reasons to Abandon Christianity:

 

20 Reasons to Abandon Christianity

 

1. It's based on fear.

2. It preys on the innocent.

3. It's based on dishonesty.

4. It's ego-centric.

5. It breeds arrogance and a 'Chosen People' mentality.

6. It breeds authoritarianism.

7. It's anti-intellectual and anti-scientific.

8. It's cruel.

9. It has a morbid, unhealthy pre-occupation with sex.

10. It produces sexual misery (and sexual predators).

11. It has a narrow, legalistic view of morality.

12. It encourages acceptance of real evils yet focuses on imaginary evils.

13. It depreciates the natural world.

14. It models a hierarchical, authoritarian organization

15. It sanctions slavery.

16. It is misogynistic.

17. It is homophobic.

18. The bible is NOT a reliable guide to Christ's teachings.

19. The bible is riddled with contradictions.

20. Christianity BORROWED its myths and ceremonies from OTHER ANCIENT RELIGIONS. It's not even a real religion!!

 

 

lol @ all of this.

 

I'm not going to write a novel to refute all this, because it's not going to change any minds here.

 

This is horribly inaccurate though. My goodness.

[Woggle]

Let's just all respect people's right to believe what they want or not believe. Religion isn't evil and neither is atheism.

[maturityassets]

This is how pointless I see the arguments between the new atheists/ skeptic community and fundamentalists Christian. Neither side truly understanding why we argue about religion:

 

"Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning

hours,

ran to the market place, and cried incessantly:

'I seek God! I seek God!'

As many of those who did not believe in God

were standing around just then,

he provoked much laughter.

Has he got lost? asked one.

Did he lose his way like a child? asked another.

Or is he hiding?

Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated?

Thus they yelled and laughed.

 

The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes.

'Whither is God?' he cried; 'I will tell you.

We have killed him--you and I.

All of us are his murderers.

But how did we do this?

How could we drink up the sea?

Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon?

What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun?

Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving?

Away from all suns?

Are we not plunging continually?

Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions?

Is there still any up or down?

Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing?

Do we not feel the breath of empty space?

Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us?

Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning?

Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers

who are burying God?

Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition?

Gods, too, decompose.

God is dead.

God remains dead.

And we have killed him.

 

'How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers?

What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled

to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us?

What water is there for us to clean ourselves?

What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent?

Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us?

Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us -

For the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all

history hitherto.'

 

Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners;

and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment.

At last he threw his lantern on the ground,

and it broke into pieces and went out.

'I have come too early,' he said then; 'my time is not yet.

This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering;

it has not yet reached the ears of men.

Lightning and thunder require time;

the light of the stars requires time;

deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard.

This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars -

and yet they have done it themselves.

 

It has been related further that on the same day

the madman forced his way into several churches

and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo.

Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing

but:

'What after all are these churches now

if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?" ~Friedrich Nietzsche "The Gay Science"

[OpenBook]

It's hard to talk to hate, just like it's hard to talk to an alcoholic that is under the influence.

 

Hate is deadly, plain and simple.

 

You can say that again!! It leaves me speechless. I really am at a loss as to how to respond... both to writergal here in this thread (on one extreme of the spectrum) and to the Westboro Baptist website I read thru the other night (on the other, polar-opposite extreme). There's SO MUCH pain behind the hate. It's overwhelming.

[maiden of rohan]

quoting"There are no Atheist/Agnostic boards on LoveShack....We deserve a platform as well for our non-belief system."

 

You do realize that is a silly statement. For you to NOT believe, in essences makes you a beleiver. Its a matter of which side of the fence you are on.

 

You believe in essence on some stance, therefore you are a believer ....just not a religious one.

 

At the end of the day, it comes down to extremist in any form. Those who (without questioning) come off self righteous without backing up the facts with faith. There are reasons to keep distance in political, religious and social issues. Facts and faith are constantly being challenged and updated....open minds.

 

Do you extend the same logic to trolls/gremlins/pixies? For you not to believe in them, does it require belief? Either I've misunderstood you, or you're claiming that to not belief in god is a belief system. Sorry, no.

[florence of suburbia]

Someone asked, what's wrong with saying "I look at you and see the face of Jesus."

 

For me personally, as someone brought up Jewish, I don't have the same emotions and thoughts towards Jesus as someone who is Christian. Now, after years being married to a practicing and very faithful Catholic, and raising my children Catholic, my feelings toward Jesus have softened.

 

But it used to be the main feeling I got if someone said the word Jesus was discomfort and fear. My ancestors were tormented every year at Easter time, in eastern Europe. After the passion plays, the people would go on riots and commit atrocities in Jesus's name during the pogroms.

 

Passion Play - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Pogrom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I'm not blaming modern Christians for this, I'm just trying to help you understand that when you say "Jesus" not everyone has the same reaction.

[maiden of rohan]

It's hard to define why I hold a distaste for religion, because it is not just one reason, and it's certainly not just one religion. One of the reasons that many hate Christianity is because that is the religion that is most dominant in their country. Atheists in Iraq will hold resentment for Islam, no doubt.

 

Why do I dislike religion? It stifles free thought, critical thought-too, it demonstrably causes harm to people, and seeks to deny people rights on the basis of a belief that someone's sky god will throw a hissy fit because of it. Religious people love to get onto their platform, and preach at people, and impose their beliefs onto others.

 

The way I view it, and I'm going to use an analogy I heard somewhere that I think is quite good. This is in regards to imposing beliefs onto others. I can punch the air at will, and that is perfectly fine. The minute my fist comes into contact with your face, my right to punch the air ends. Why? Because I've imposed my will to punch onto you, someone who presumably does not want to be punched.

 

So when you try and convert or impose your beliefs onto unwilling subjects, you're breaching their free will to not be subjected to it. You have every right to believe whatever it is you want to believe, just as I have every right to punch the air, so long as you do not use those beliefs to dictate to others how they ought to live, or what they ought to think, and as long as I do not punch someone.

 

If you wish to deny someone rights to live as they choose, to love who they love, on the basis that you believe your book told you to, I probably don't like you very much.

[endlessabyss]

Bill Maher...this clip discusses the reasons why I don't like religion and think that it's detrimental to society.

 

Bill Maher // #GOD is a Psychotic Mass Murderer - YouTube

 

 

Didn't even watch, but from the title, I kind of get of picture of what to hear Maher ramble about.

 

Funny thing is, he probably fails to mention all the great 20th century, atheistic dictators who took it upon themselves to slaughter hundreds of millions of people. Please, don't act as if atheism is the ultimate cure for the worlds woes.

 

Are you aware of recent history? Stalin, Lenin, Pol-Pot, Moa.

 

The funny thing, to me is, specifically with Stalin, as an atheist, I wonder what his purpose was for shaking his fist at the heavens, before his death, if God didn't exist to him.

 

He knew the truth deep down.

 

Personally, I see all sorts of hypocrisy after going through this thread, but this was just one of the more poor arguments I see bandwagon atheists use.

 

Another one that I think is funny is when one claims they hate it when Christian's push their beliefs on people, and yet the public school system is pushing secular values on masses of children, with no regards to if that is what their parents want or not.

 

Like whoever stated above, it really isn't religion, nor atheism that is evil. It's people. They ultimately have the decision on what to act on.

 

We all know that theism is a better worldview, because it gives purpose, objective morality, meaning to life, and hope. But, if atheism does it for you, knock yourself out. God gave us free will, take advantage of it while you're here.

[maiden of rohan]

Endlessabyss, are you aware that atheism is not a doctrine of any belief system? It has no rules, no tenets, no dogma. It is simply a lack of belief in god/s. That is it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Hitler, for example, was a Catholic. He slaughtered millions of Jews. Did he do that because he was Catholic? Because if you're going to use the argument that Stalin, Mao etc, did what they did because of their atheism, well, I hope you see where I'm going with this...

 

 

You'd have a long reach to connect atheism to the crimes that these people committed. Can you show how their lack of belief in god made them slaughter all of those people? Which part of the non-existent doctrine told them to do that?

[sweetjasmine]

We all know that theism is a better worldview, because it gives purpose, objective morality, meaning to life, and hope.

 

I'll take my subjective morality that doesn't involve diddling children, slaughtering unbelievers, blowing up buses, and flying airplanes into buildings, thanks.

[endlessabyss]

Endlessabyss, are you aware that atheism is not a doctrine of any belief system? It has no rules, no tenets, no dogma. It is simply a lack of belief in god/s. That is it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Hitler, for example, was a Catholic. He slaughtered millions of Jews. Did he do that because he was Catholic? Because if you're going to use the argument that Stalin, Mao etc, did what they did because of their atheism, well, I hope you see where I'm going with this...

 

 

You'd have a long reach to connect atheism to the crimes that these people committed. Can you show how their lack of belief in god made them slaughter all of those people? Which part of the non-existent doctrine told them to do that?

 

The bolded is enough.

[UpwardForward]

Spare me your convenient sob story. You started this thread with the intention of inciting a heated debate between yourself, other religious posters, and non-believers like myself and others here..just so you could justify why religion and Christianity as so great and do so much good for the world.

 

If you genuinely wanted to know why people despise Christianity then I think your goals would have been different; not to evangelize, not to attack, ignore or show the disrespect that you have shown here..in this thread..that you created.

 

Take responsibility for your actions, OP. Isn't that one of the tenets of Christianity? You had ulterior motives for this thread which you accomplished. Good for you.

 

I know Pure well enough to know this isn't the reason she began the thread. And I do agree with Pure, that the thread has gone in an enlightening direction. (which can be good.)

 

Nevertheless, it reminds me of if I were to approach - and open a big bee's nest.

[maiden of rohan]

Didn't even watch, but from the title, I kind of get of picture of what to hear Maher ramble about.

 

Funny thing is, he probably fails to mention all the great 20th century, atheistic dictators who took it upon themselves to slaughter hundreds of millions of people. Please, don't act as if atheism is the ultimate cure for the worlds woes.

 

Are you aware of recent history? Stalin, Lenin, Pol-Pot, Moa.

 

The funny thing, to me is, specifically with Stalin, as an atheist, I wonder what his purpose was for shaking his fist at the heavens, before his death, if God didn't exist to him.

 

He knew the truth deep down.

 

Personally, I see all sorts of hypocrisy after going through this thread, but this was just one of the more poor arguments I see bandwagon atheists use.

 

Another one that I think is funny is when one claims they hate it when Christian's push their beliefs on people, and yet the public school system is pushing secular values on masses of children, with no regards to if that is what their parents want or not.

 

Like whoever stated above, it really isn't religion, nor atheism that is evil. It's people. They ultimately have the decision on what to act on.

 

We all know that theism is a better worldview, because it gives purpose, objective morality, meaning to life, and hope. But, if atheism does it for you, knock yourself out. God gave us free will, take advantage of it while you're here.

 

This is demonstrably false. Take Japan, Sweden, Norway, for example, these are countries that are predominantly atheist and secular. They rank among the healthiest countries in the world for everything from crime rates to healthcare and education and equality.

 

Why is this if religion is so integral to the health of society? If theism is so important, and necessary, how come it doesn't appear to correlate to the statistics shown in these studies? Surely, theocracies would be the countries that are prospering, and the healthiest, not secular countries with largely atheist populations.

[UpwardForward]

The bolded is enough.

 

I agree. It puts All the responsibility on 'Self' (or false gods) - which is Not enough.

[maiden of rohan]

The bolded is enough.

 

Did you expect a lack of belief in something to have rules?

[endlessabyss]

I'll take my subjective morality that doesn't involve diddling children, slaughtering unbelievers, blowing up buses, and flying airplanes into buildings, thanks.

 

 

My subjective morality says those actions are A-OK.

 

[UpwardForward]

Endlessabyss, are you aware that atheism is not a doctrine of any belief system? It has no rules, no tenets, no dogma. It is simply a lack of belief in god/s. That is it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Hitler, for example, was a Catholic. He slaughtered millions of Jews. Did he do that because he was Catholic? Because if you're going to use the argument that Stalin, Mao etc, did what they did because of their atheism, well, I hope you see where I'm going with this...

 

 

You'd have a long reach to connect atheism to the crimes that these people committed. Can you show how their lack of belief in god made them slaughter all of those people? Which part of the non-existent doctrine told them to do that?

 

The bolded above. One of the biggest reasons I can think of for going 'to war'. And to protect those who cannot save themselves.

[maiden of rohan]

The bolded above. One of the biggest reasons I can think of for going 'to war'. And to protect those who cannot save themselves.

 

I don't quite get what your point has to do with what I was saying...