The Slow Fade + NC = No Chance?

[sooshi]

I'm glad you're feeling such a huge sense of relief, elsea. My ex-fiance de-friended me last month. I wonder if he felt relieved too. To my knowledge, he had never deleted anyone on there before. So it was quite a blow for me, and I don't think I deserved it. I know I don't.

 

I hope that what doing this for yourself helps with your healing process. I was thinking that you wrote out about those last 3.5 months to help you see the reality of what was happening, and I hope it helped you. Maybe it's harder to see it when you're so involved in the situation, but if you don't see it now, I believe that if you were to look back on those words not too far in the future from now, that you will really see all of the red flags, and that it was an ultimately unhealthy relationship (at least towards the end). It became one-sided by the end.

 

You deserve to be in a mutually loving and respectful relationship, and you will find yourself in such a relationship again someday.

[redbaron005]

he told me that he wanted someone a bit more like him. (What a mess that would be

 

Ha. My thought exactally.

[elseaacych]

Sooshi, although it does stink to get defriended, it does signify a clean break. I think in the long run, if you can't see what he's up to, or see whenever he's online it will help you in the long run. (Did you really want to see what he was up to anyway?) Out of sight, out of mind. If you want to move on, it's for the best. Writing it out did help a lot.

 

RedBaron: This sounds a little petulant, but I love a good zinger. I hope he gets what he wants.

 

With the new gf, I think he's relying on her as a buffer of sorts to ease the emotional pain of all the sh-t he's going through. Again. I don't know, but I'm speculating that because I couldn't provide an "adequate" solution to his problems, he wanted to move on to someone he thought could do a better job. Too bad having a significant other is not a solution to those kinds of problems. Also, I reminded him of his mom, which I take as a compliment because his mom is a very together, kind, and well adjusted lady. (Too bad he doesn't like her, or his sister. Red flag.)

 

Well, I had another dream about him last night, which makes three(?), which is more than I ever had in the course of the relationship.

 

I was in an elementary school helping a teacher grade papers, and on break, I went to find my ex and his girlfriend hanging around outside the building. I met them, he introduced me to her, and I was kinda nice in a false way to her, telling her my ex was a catch, and wishing her good luck while openly flirting with him and even going so far as to kiss him on the neck (?!?), in front of her. He kind of tolerated it, flirting a little back, but looked to go back to her and put his arm around her waist as I said goodbye to them.

 

It was very strange, considering the last couple involved him drunk and wanting me back, and just plain wanting me back. (My dream behavior was also kind of weird too, because that is not something I would do.) I had a dream shortly after I found out about the new girl that she came to me crying that she didn't understand him, and that he was unkind. Either way, in dreams and in real life, he's just been plain shady from my perspective. It stinks, because I loved this guy.

 

I dunno. I'm just trying to understand.

[sooshi]

elsea, you're right, I don't want to see what he's been up to. He has been engaged before, and I could tell that they are close to this other ex-fiancée of his. It hurt to feel left behind.

 

Anyway, it sucks to have dreams about them, isn't it? Sometimes they give us hope, fulfill our wishes of reconciliation, and then we wake up and find out it was just a dream. And sometimes, they're just bad dreams. I try not to read too much into my dreams, because they can come from anywhere, though, although secretly sometimes I hope they're dreams that tell the future.

 

I agree with you when you said that he wanted to be with someone who could ease emotional pain for him, and that having a significant other doesn't solve those problems. We can support them and do what we can to help empower them and enhance their lives, but it's ultimately up to themselves to fulfill themselves. Unfortunately, I think that many (if not most) people seek others out to fulfill them, and that is both an unreasonable request and an unfair burden to place on anyone.

[elseaacych]

Anyway, it sucks to have dreams about them, isn't it? Sometimes they give us hope, fulfill our wishes of reconciliation, and then we wake up and find out it was just a dream. And sometimes, they're just bad dreams. I try not to read too much into my dreams, because they can come from anywhere, though, although secretly sometimes I hope they're dreams that tell the future.

 

Interestingly, the night before we broke up, I dreamed I broke up with HIM. Needless to say, it left me a little uneasy, but a little more prepared to handle it when the hammer came down. Still cried like a baby, though, because I didn't feel it was the right time to go... we needed to support each other... etc.

 

I like psychology, and evaluating people, a lot. I am a social scientist at heart, although I like to be more practical with applications, using case studies not just to learn from, but to apply to the real world in the present. Dreams are results of distorted case studies, and since I have very little data to work with right now (other people's recollections and stories. Hearsay.), my own experiences (biased), have to suffice. I guess it's me testing what would happen if I tried to flirt with him if I saw him again.

 

Something I've wondered about lately is how dumpers react to news about dumpees. (We all have pretty good ideas about how dumpees react to news about dumpers. They try to analyze the hell out of it.)

If they're (dumpee), is doing better, dumper gets jealous. Maybe even remorseful.

If they're (dumpee) is doing worse, does the dumper feel guilty? Or just relieved?

[sooshi]

I don't think we can generalize about how the dumper will react to news about the dumpee. Too many variables.

[Breadimus]

It is amazing really how many similar questions so many different individuals can have.

 

When I dumped my first girlfriend I did so because I no longer felt as attracted to her both emotionally or physically, even though she had not "changed". I just knew more about her and my own prejudices and experience, likes and dislikes of a person were revealed. What we see as a person is a perception of what we want to see at any given time based in certain "facts", as such there is nothing we as the dumpees can do in that case but feel bad and retreat. As really we did not have control over it.

 

Does this mean people stop caring? No. It just means that they do not care enough to be affected by the actions another takes. My first girlfriend, five months after I left her landed her dream job, moved to a new town, met a man and they are now married four years later living in a swanky part of Sydney. I did not care at all nor do I care now. In fact I was not even happy nor sad just indifferent. It was if I had read about it in the paper about two strangers.

 

I believe I am a decent human being but as a case study to look at I think it paints a picture that the majority of "emotionally mature snd stable" dumpers fall under.

 

Do you believe your ex is emotionally so?

[elseaacych]

What's really fascinating is that these different people have the same questions, but they need the same answers in different ways. The "answer", is frequently counterintuitive to a dumpee mindset, and they think: "Well, I am different! My situation is different, so I can do this and be okay." The answer is no, you can't, and a dumpee can read these objective answers (on NC), and stay detached until something subjectively clicks in their mind.

 

I will use my most recent example of de-friending my ex. I refused to do so. I didn't unfollow him until about two months after we broke up. It was only until the damage was done, that I realized I really didn't want to be privy to it. So I took a baby step of unfollowing. And then I put him on restricted, a month later. Finally it took Sooshi's comment, of "You need to unfriend him", to click with the "Well, I don't want to see him and I don't want him to see me" that was going in my head. So there's that. Defriending him should have been automatic, four months ago. Hell. Three months ago. But it took all of this agonizing for the objective message to subjectively sink in.

 

But you see these things from an objective standard, with your subjective (quite distraught) mind, so you don't really think of doing it until it can mesh with what you think you should do. (And someone usually has to tell you.) I find that I write many variations of the same message to other members of this forum. There's a slight subjective spin, that if you can take that person's experience and work it into your message, it resonates more and they can take it to work with. It's like taking the NC Guide and adding a personal touch, saying: "Here, this the approach. This is how it will work for you based on your experience."

 

Damn. This feels rather like legal analysis.

 

Anyway, to get to your question, Breadimus:

 

No. My ex is not stable at all. To many people he is obnoxious. But, he has good and bad qualities, like all people do. To avoid the gory details, he has several chronic illnesses that shape how his mind perceives the world and how he chooses to interact with it. So he fluctuated a lot in three years, but the one thing that he was always pretty stable with, was how he felt towards me. We were not compatible at all in some respects, but we handled our differences. Until one day, those feelings just changed. It seemed like a switch had activated, and he was just going through the motions, and waiting for a time to leave. Maybe his feelings had been steadily shifting, but they were so subtle that he didn't notice or care to "fix" it. Revive the spark, so to say.

 

I, in the meanwhile, did see these incompatibilities, and the illnesses but still chose to accept and love him for who he was, because... well, I loved him. He was a great companion, and on many morality and values based levels, we seemed to mesh well. He did want different things out of life than I did, but I thought that some compromises would make us both happy. He would bring the adventure, and I the stability to a happy medium. I did often worry because I have the tendency to go through depressive periods myself, and if he was always fluctuating, I wanted to have another source of support around to help me if he couldn't. (Either my or his family.) I am a planner, and was convinced it could work if we worked on it. But we never seemed to find a time to do so. I was aware of a lot of red flags, but at the time they just seemed yellow. Maybe I was delusional with love?

 

In my perspective, love is a choice you make consciously every day. So while I had lots of potential prospects, I had him. And while he could make me mad, I always chose him. So for me, if something had been going wrong for "awhile" to kill that attraction, and you hadn't done anything about it, not even allocated a time to work on the issue (which I had, but he bailed before that time)... I just don't understand why you wouldn't try and fix or learn to live with the issue if you loved somebody. (This is excluding obvious deal breakers like infidelity or abuse.) I hope this is not a gross-oversimplification of how relationships should or how love should work.

 

Unfortunately, some issues can't be "fixed" or "minimized" to a satisfactory handleable extent, and relationships are a two way street. Your story intrigues me Breadimus, because there's not really a change of facts, but rather a change of perception. Was it an unreconcilable issue?

 

Dang. This is getting long. Thoughts, anybody? I don't want to be the only one talking here.

Edited April 12, 2014 by elseaacych

[sooshi]

I think that it is more often than not a change in perception, in terms of how someone feel about us. It's frightening how our reality is shaped by our perceptions. One moment, you can be in love with someone, and completely indifferent to them at another moment. Makes me think that the world we live in is just illusion.

[Breadimus]

 

Unfortunately, some issues can't be "fixed" or "minimized" to a satisfactory handleable extent, and relationships are a two way street. Your story intrigues me Breadimus, because there's not really a change of facts, but rather a change of perception. Was it an unreconcilable issue?

 

Dang. This is getting long. Thoughts, anybody? I don't want to be the only one talking here.

 

They were in no way issues that could not be resolved. My first girlfriend was a wonderful woman. Strong but insecure, loving but selfish,

At times lacking in empathy but always aware of my feelings. I no longer wanted to be with her, it was a chore seeing her and though nothing had changed I just knew her better. Because of this my "idea" of her changed. Now a healthy relationship with some one takes your idea and mashes it with reality and you are comfortable with the outcome. I was not comfortable with the outcome and left.

 

I can safely say my recent relationship ended because of that same idea. The reality of me was different to JW's perception of me. And though I would say very similar, for her there were some 'surprises' that she could not look past. Her last words were, " I love and care for you, but I don't know who you are." I don't know what that means since I was honest, upfront and me to the best if my ability at that time.

 

Every relationship is us learning how to live with the perception and reality, we get better as we go along and find satisfaction when both parties have reached that stage.

 

Could be totally rubbish though! Food for thought.

[elseaacych]

I think that may come from the dumper having not taken the time to understand the dumpee, or try to respect a core value that is important to the dumpee. If we go with the premise that all relationships (and breakups) are inherently similar, my guess is that there may have been a core value (or several core values) that you: Breadimus, Sooshi, fellow dumpees, thought were reconcilable with work, but your dumpers, JW, Ex-Fiancee, other dumpers, thought couldn't be resolved for any number of reasons. (Pick one or several. It's a balancing test: Changed feelings toward dumpee, recognition of actual incompatibility in the long run, more interesting alternatives, having a tough couple months and not wanting to work on it... etc. Any reason could do it, which is scary) + Other variables and it all adds up to a sad conclusion of, "I am not getting my needs met here and I don't see my needs getting met anytime in the foreseeable future. I am better off trying to find another alternative."

 

But it's all very squishy, because you can't really put a number on feelings no matter how hard you try.

 

Dumpees too, need to come to that conclusion. My problem(?) is that I thinker with lots of variables and try to be solution oriented, look at the long run, and am willing to tolerate lots of short term bull**** if I still see a viable long run. Unfortunately, he is still viewed as a viable solution, because he is still proximate (time and distance wise) and I still think he's better than nothing. If he weren't proximate, it'd be easier. I could go find him this very second if I wanted to. I dunno.

Edited April 13, 2014 by elseaacych

[sooshi]

Breadimus, empathy is a crucial part of a relationship. Without it, it's lacking. I agree that it's often the "idea" we have of the person changes. Pretty illusory stuff.

 

I think your theory is a valid one, elsea.

[elseaacych]

I'm glad that we could have this conversation on how rational dumpers work.

 

I read some interesting articles in my procrastination today about making relationships work, who to marry, etc. It's all very interesting: and a great website too. I highly recommend it to anyone who's interested in self improvement.

 

Barking Up The Wrong Tree - How to be awesome at life.

 

Anyway, I've been having multiple part revelations lately, thanks to this website and several other things. Today's revelation. It was pretty much all on him. It was not lack of affection, although that became an issue because we eventually were unable to express it to each other improperly. (Him because he didn't understand what I needed. I because I just wanted to be cared for at a time when I needed it, and didn't feel the need to explain. I just trusted blindly that he could take care of me and himself- and when he didn't, I got fed up and snapped.) The honeymoon stage was ending for us, and he saw it as a signal of the end.

 

The biggest problem we had was his lack of direction. That was not something I could solve, but was going to be necessary to determine the long term. It was not something he wanted to solve. I could only subtly encourage him to solve it. Others were more overt. In time, he could only get rid of me, and the new attractive alternative just made it easier for him to do it.

 

That's it in a nutshell. Running away from problems rather than tackling them. How disappointing.

[sooshi]

How disappointing indeed, elsea. Perhaps it was because the honeymoon phase was ending that he felt less inclined to tackle those problems. It's disheartening when that part of the relationship fizzles out and then our partner becomes less interested in you and in the relationship. I think that's when we realize that they were in it more for them than for the teamwork.

[elseaacych]

We broke up in Mid December. I don’t know how many months ago that was, but I’m not counting. We’ve been NC ever since. I haven’t heard anything from him. Not even a breadcrumb. It’s like he vanished into thin air.

 

I’ve been ruminating on this for a few days now. Last night I had another dream, this one where I got a breadcrumb through text message, and it felt so real. Unlike the other ones where I could tell upon waking that my experiences were definitely dreams, this one left me feeling so disoriented. It wasn’t even real, and I felt pangs of disappointment. You’d think that even though we didn’t talk every day when we were a couple, we were still in love for a good portion of the relationship. You’d think that he’d have reached out by now.

 

Yes, I know. There’s a roadblock. That still doesn’t mean he couldn’t. I kind of want the breadcrumbs, really. To know that I am not facing this alone. To know that there are still some residual feelings of affection, at least. To know that I haven’t entirely broken his heart. To know that at some point in time that I experienced love.

 

I enjoy reading articles on adopting zen thinking, because I want more balance in my life, and it is easy to become imbalanced, as a law student. But, as I read through Law School Zen, I just keep thinking about the “mistakes” I made last semester in not being attuned to my ex’s needs. Even though I know they weren’t mistakes. I’ve had family members in law, counselors, other members of the legal profession telling me I wasn’t wrong to do what I did in whole-heartedly pursuing 1L, because it is tough. However, I lost something that seemed so precious, even though in the relationship, I was the giver/accommodator probably 85% of the time. To receive radio silence after a rather rude break up, just makes me feel like I wasn’t ever enough, and there was never any love in the first place.

 

I am remaining steadfast in not reaching out to my ex, because he is the last person I need in my life at the moment. Here’s a thread I think everyone should read, because this wonderful woman was able to heal and move on to a new stage of her life with grace: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/second-chances/415395-my-no-contact-story

 

I hope one day to be that strong.

[elseaacych]

Another post, so soon? Ha, well, I thought I was out of thoughts.

 

I can't seem to escape my ex, now that he has entered the media, (I have lots of friends who are in mass media, because for a while I was thinking of going into journalism, myself. But, law is my calling. And I get to write at a higher level, too.) One of my friends (not the ex), posted a picture of himself with my ex. My ex looks like he has aged a lot, and that he is hiding a lot of hurt behind his half smile.

 

It makes me sad, because of the two recent pictures (taken in the last six months) I've inadvertently stumbled upon, he just looks either miserable, or smiling, but not actually "smiling". Physically present, but only maybe halfway mentally present.

 

I can't help but wonder. It doesn't look like he's actually pulled out of his slump. On the other hand, I have a few pictures from volunteering, competing in a trial simulation, and going out with my little brother on a spontaneous trip. I look kind of gaunt, but I have a light in my eyes, and a smile, because I am enjoying life at that moment.

 

Again, I can't think about this too hard or try to analyze his inner turmoil, because I've been faced with nothing but radio silence. (Rude.) In a few months, I hope that I will have more pictures with new friends, where our smiles and eyes shine as bright as the sun.

[sooshi]

elsea, you're right about not thinking too hard to analyze his inner turmoil. It'll only cause you pain. Why don't you block wherever you're seeing these pictures?

[elseaacych]

Well, if I were to go in complete lockdown (any mutual friends of his + any mutual friends of the new girlfriend), I would need to take a look at their profiles to see who our mutual friends are. Right now, I know that is a VERY BAD IDEA, for a couple of reasons. Anyway, I don't think this particular person will be posting any more pictures. So I'm safe for now.

 

How are things going with you, Sooshi?

[sooshi]

Yeah, that's understandable. That would likely cause more injury to you than potentially seeing more pictures. It seems like you're doing pretty well with your healing. Also, although I know you're in the field of law, but I hope you write some books or something someday! You really are a great writer.

 

I'm doing okay. Feeling guilty that maybe I did cause drama with wanting my friend to block my ex after I discovered he had been pursuing her (someone on here commented that it seems like I *was* doing that, and now it's making me doubt myself). I really didn't mean to hurt him. I was just so hurt and angry and it didn't seem like something a friend (which was what he was to me) would do, at least not without letting me know about his intentions to pursue her first. I guess it doesn't matter what my intentions were though, and that how it was interpreted is what matters. I'll stop talking about myself now.

[elseaacych]

Unfortunately, a simple unilateral action, like removing someone from facebook can't be interpreted any other way as "I want you out of my life". People tend to assume the worst about each other when they haven't been getting along. I had the same thoughts about my ex; I wondered if he would flip out when he found out that I de-friended him. Then it occurred to me that it didn't matter what he thought, unless he was going to make life difficult for my brother: because for a while my brother was a target for some of his frustrations. Even if that's the case, I don't think I could do anything about it. :/

 

I don't know. They probably have some idea that what they're doing hurt you. But if they think YOU'RE causing drama by de-friending them and you get crap about it, remember who started it in the first place. They started it. You're ending it. (I know, feelings are really more complicated than that. That's what sucks.)

Edited April 19, 2014 by elseaacych

[sooshi]

I appreciate your insights, elsea.

 

He deleted me on FB first (but kept her on there, and continued to pursue her). The last time he had contacted me before doing that was to say that we needed some time to pass on our interactions. But the day he deleted me, he had told my friend that he didn't know if he could ever be a part of my life again. My friend told me he needs to heal.

 

My friend has deleted plenty of people over time; didn't want their attention, thought that they would influence her negatively, etc. Right now, I'm not able to have her be in my life without it hurting me. She's a good person, but hasn't stood up for me with my ex, even when I said it was what I would have liked. But maybe that's asking too much. I've been trying to work through that, and I kind of feel like not good enough a friend/person because I haven't been able to forgive whole-heartedly.

Edited April 19, 2014 by sooshi

[elseaacych]

We are all human. Don't be hard on yourself for putting yourself first in your situation. You don't need to forgive her right away, but you do need to forgive for your own sake. If it takes removing her from facebook to help in the process, do it.

 

Now, for a dumb ex-hole update.

 

Little brother came home today, pissed again, because my ex(-hole) is now spreading drama and saying mean things about him behind his back. (My bro got it on hearsay from three separate members of his chapter, because he wasn't present at the meeting.) Bro said it made him want to kick Ex-hole in the teeth.

 

I was pissed about it, and almost broke NC to text him "You got what you wanted. Quit picking on my brother."

 

But no good would come of that. I guess I just don't understand. Is it normal for exes to act like butt heads to your family members? I mean, when we broke up, we agreed that we were going to be friendly. Less important: What does it mean?

[sooshi]

Yeah, I do feel that the removing of her from facebook does help. Thanks again for your thoughts, elsea.

 

I'm so sorry about what happened with your brother. That is both surprising and hurtful to hear about. What was their relationship like? I don't know if your ex has just been feeling upset about the situation with you and has been taking it out on him. I'm sorry that you and your brother have to be involved with this.

[elseaacych]

Ex-hole got my little brother into the house. They seemed "okay" with each other until shortly before the breakup, at which point Ex-hole started being really nasty to him, and has continued to be nasty to my brother since the break up. According to my brother. Fortunately my ex will not be living in the house next school year. Don't know where he's going, don't care. LALALALALALALA....

 

It just grinds my gears to see my brother upset about it, and it pisses me off that my ex is just acting like a tool. I'm still mulling about if there's anything I can do.

[sooshi]

That is awful I'm sorry for not knowing what more to say, but I hope others can offer insights about anything else you can do.