Why is beauty so objective?

[paleface]

Beauty is very objective. People here don't want to admit that because it isn't pc, but, trust me, any of these women here would sleep with Brad Pitt if given the chance (if not for looks, then for his fame....but that's a discussion for another thread). As one poster here wisely stated, it's easy to reject someone that you have no chance with to begin with.

 

OP, if you are ugly or short or whatever, just acknowledge it and move on. Realize that this may hold you back and accept that. Be at peace with it. Then you'll get the women that don't care that much (or the ones that can't get the super hot guys).

 

Well, at least you spoke the truth to me. I guess I always knew it, just needed somebody to confirm it.

Yes, I lack beauty in my face. I don't have the same looks like Brad pitt.

 

This is a common problem for most guys today, with facebook and all social media, women are bombarded with attention and compliments which feed their ego and make them believe they all deserve only the top notch of the guys.

[Emilia]

I think beauty is quite objective but attraction is subjective because your perception, imprinting, etc plays a big part.

[Haydn]

Me neither.

 

Brad Pitt does nothing for me.

[2.50 a gallon]

I'm too short, only 5' 6"! I'm ugly! My wallet is too small!

 

 

Are nothing more than excuses.

 

 

We men are lucky in that the opposite sex, though they do notice our physical attractiveness are much more attracted by a man's character.

His strength, and I don't mean his physical strength, but also his ability to be a man who does not make excuses and faces life head on. His confidence. His vision. His out look on life. His sense of humor.

 

 

In my dating days, I was only 5' 6" and barely tipped the scales at 130. And yet dated and had sex with more than hundreds of very beautiful and sexy women.

 

 

I married a gal, 5' 11", with a killer body, strawberry blonde, blue eyes, that was total foldout material. Yep, I caught her cheating. She even moved in with the OM and tried to flaunt her new love.

 

 

Did that get me down. Hell yes. But I did not beg or cry, and never let her know. And like a jockey made sure I got back into the saddle as soon as possible, and within a month was riding a new filly.

 

 

It was my Ex who begged me to take her back for the next 3 to 4 years.

 

 

At present I am just a couple of years away from turning 70. The lady of my life just turned 60. She is a good 2 to 3 inches taller than me and it is all in her legs. Me 30" inseam hers 36. She is beautiful, with brown hair down the middle of her back. She is a granny of a teenager and still has a flat tummy and an hour glass figure. Eye Candy. She works with the public and guys are constantly hitting on her. They get no where. She is in love with me.

 

 

Eighteen years ago at age 49, her age 40, I took her away from a guy who was 4 years younger than her, or just 36. A six plus footer, a light heavy weight boxer who looked like Steven Segal, her favorite actor.

[topaMAXX]

My face isn't objectively attractive yet I get lots of decent men who find me attractive. As you.can see you don't have to be beautiful to the masses to get a lot of people that regularly find you attractive.

 

Im a man and you're a woman. We come from two different planets.

 

Women will ALWAYS have options. The same isn't true for men.

 

Again, the reason for this is a topic for another discussion.

[2.50 a gallon]

This story was told to me by my great aunt. She had married my dad's father's brother.

 

She was but 19 when her family moved to a small Midwest farm town. At first chance after unpacking, she, her sister and a couple of girl cousins who lived there, went for a stroll down town, to check out the local male population. And get introductions by her cousins. Being a beauty, she was an instant hit. And then another guy came walking by and she told her sister, "That has to be the ugliest man I have ever seen."

 

Less than a year later guess who she married. Yep that was my great uncle Bill.

 

The turnaround began a week later at a church social after church. While all the other guys where chatting her up, she noticed the ugly guy, had brought kite making material, and was teaching the kids how to make and fly their own kites. She thought to herself, that's the kind of man I want to be the father of my children.

 

 

They had six kids, I only got to know 4 of them as one was killed on D-Day and another was killed in a car accident. And I remember them celebrating their golden anniversary

Edited March 25, 2014 by 2.50 a gallon

[Leigh 87]

Im a man and you're a woman. We come from two different planets.

 

Women will ALWAYS have options. The same isn't true for men.

 

Again, the reason for this is a topic for another discussion.

 

 

 

 

Um, excuse me, I do actually have people who find me attractive. They thin I have stand out features and think I am definitely not average to the vast majority (they cannot see that I am, where as I CAN see things for what they truly are. Where as they are BLINDED by their subjective opinion as to how they perceive my appearance).

 

It is not in my head, due to a bunch of horny dudes wanting sex form me. How insulting.

 

I DO have very good teeth and other stand out features so yeah, some people DO actually find me good looking. As hard to believe as that may be for you. They DO NOT find me to be the average gal, in THEIR eyes.

I just know that in reality, they are only SOME people, due to me not being conventionally beautiful to the masses.

To assume I am a girl and therefore I can look bland as hell and have guys worship me is Ludacris.

 

Now looks are so subjective that myself, as an average looking kind of gal, have had WAY more male and female compliments than my average looking female friends.

That's right; get a bunch of average looking women in a room and have guys rate them, and there will be VASTLY different results!

Because while still average, a lot of men like slim/curvy blondes like me, and I have some nice features even though over all I am rated as average I venture to guess.

So I have way more interest than my average friends because I have huge eyes, nice teeth and full lips where as my friends have a cute nose unlike me as well as perhaps clear skin, but they have tiny eye, thin lips and totally bland style.

Two average chicks get way different levels of male attention on any given day.

 

Objective beauty is reserved for the rare few who have mostly good or stunning features and no bad features.

 

I have a slightly crooked nose hence why I am not conventionally or objectively good looking. Honestly, all my other features are above average to most people (full lips, straight teeth, huge eyes and clear skin with small pores. Very long hair.).:p

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Minus the objectively perfect features, a person like myself for instance can have very nice features yet ONE BAD feature, such as my nose stands in my way of being objectively hot (since I am a slim yet curvy blonde with nice teeth and skin), since many men prefer small, cute button noses to longer thin ones like mine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do it to yourself; what features do YOU have that either make you objectively beautiful or alternatively, what is the ONE or TWO features that are holding you BACK from being objectively hot?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know MANY people who would be Very objectively attractive IF one or two features about them were altered.

 

 

 

It is easy for me to pick things that people warm to and find very appealing, versus things the majority DO NOT enjoy to stare at.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

even though I am not attractive to the masses like the stunning, objectively attractive people.

[TheGuard13]

What are everyone's thoughts about beauty being culturally influenced?

 

 

I think a lot of the time, we're told something is beautiful, and a lot of people just don't like to (or aren't capable of) thinking for themselves in that regard.

[GoodOnPaper]

Why does beauty have to be objective? Why not subjective so everybody can experience love.

 

(yes i am ugly).

 

While beauty is largely objective, "objectiveness" is actually fluid and varies with culture and point in time. If we were in the Baroque era, my wife would have been the equivalent of a pinup model -- instead of me not being as attracted to her as she was to me, she would have been way out of my league. 50 years ago, my science PhD, its potential for higher-than-average income, and my relationship/family-oriented character would have gotten me much much further in the dating world. Now (and back when I was single), all of those qualities mean nothing unless I also happen to have the body of a physical trainer and a life-of-the-party personality. It's just the way of our current world . . .

 

What's really blocking you from moving forward is your sensitivity to it -- I struggle with that, too. When we're young and figuring out what we're attracted to, a lot of us focus on surface beauty. That works for some guys but for the rest of us, we're better served to learn how we best connect with women beyond the first impressions of each others' looks. And you're in a great position to just practice that -- what do you have to lose? I've learned that in the end, my emotional satisfaction level has very little to do with my wife's looks or weight -- it's about the quality of intimate connection. And as some posts have pointed out, that doesn't necessarily correlate to one's looks.

[MissBee]

How many of you could say you dont find a young brad pitt attractive?

Why does beauty have to be objective? Why not subjective so everybody can experience love.

 

(yes i am ugly).

 

It isn't at all objective.

 

There are cultural standards of beauty (that are not timeless, that do change and trend) yes, but even within that cultural standard there have and will always be individual preferences that diverge from the standard.

 

Brad Pitt looks okay but does NOTHING for me! I have never looked at him, when he was younger or now that he's aging, and thought omggg sooo hottt! Likewise there are lots of other celebrities, men and women alike, whom I'm like sorry, they look okay to me but I am not attracted to them.

 

Beauty is subjective and attraction is more than just looks, and everybody can experience love. I have seen people I find completely unattractive looks and personality wise and they have bfs, gfs, husbands or wives or are getting hit on, so there is someone for everyone. Some people may fall in line with the cultural standard and may have more people attracted to them than others do but nevertheless, no matter how you look you have at least a few other people who will like you.

[hasaquestion]

LOL at all the people saying Brad Pitt isn't attractive. I wouldn't switch teams for him or anything, but you're not convincing me he isn't hotter than 99% of men.

[regine_phalange]

Believe it or not, there are many people out there with bad taste. Go find them. At least that's what I do.

[Ninjainpajamas]

What are everyone's thoughts about beauty being culturally influenced?

 

 

I think a lot of the time, we're told something is beautiful, and a lot of people just don't like to (or aren't capable of) thinking for themselves in that regard.

 

Do cultural influences play a big part in your choices and desirable traits/qualities you might seek out in a partner? of course they do, especially for those who are always in that bubble or prefer that traditional standard versus free choice, maybe never even had a chance to expose themselves long enough to that variety.

 

This next part might get me in a little trouble..

 

Even in Los Angeles, where diversity is great...you see a lot of people glued together based on their cultural background and roots. For example Asians, they seem to have some pretty rigid standards of expectations based off family values and education, and it seems to be closely tied to the level of success they can achieve and outdoing the other person in terms of it...and then of course taking care of your parents when they're old as dirt. Furthermore to say the least, they prefer to often date within their own race...this doesn't go for everyone of course, it's a generalization, I have close Asian friends of my own who are more I'd say "Americanized" or "LosAngelesized" than traditional.

 

Then you have to figure out the difference between Chinese, Korean, Japanese, the pacific islanders, among others...good look with that if you've never even interacted with these ethnic groups and cultures, I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means, but being Hispanic you're pretty much thrown into one group just the same, and I don't take it personal, never have. Growing up in the "melting pot" as it's called in Los Angeles, you get past the color of skin and cultural differences from childhood because many of these people in spite of their differences end up good friends or people you socialize and work with, the common ground and human connection takes precedence over where you are from and what you believe in...at least in my book, I don't see the people I've dated as anything but women that I was interested in for qualities that I found attracting and alluring, which means I've opened up myself to diversity a long time ago.

 

Lady Gaga might be a cultural and societal influence in Los Angeles and in the states in general, but I doubt anyone's gravitating towards her because of her beauty, and I haven't seen anyone wearing a meat dress or kermit the frog outfit, but she's popular rather for her talent which some people may agree or disagree with, but she's popular for a reason because she's objectively "talented", she sings, plays instruments and knows how to perform, but it doesn't mean everyone would think she is talented to their taste or preference.

 

However if she looked like a model and was objectively beautiful, then you'd hear women whining about a "standard" that is unrealistic for normal women to achieve, but since she doesn't...nobody complains about that, they just talk about how ugly she is because it makes them feel better about themselves. Which by all means she does kind of have a horse face, but I personally thinks she's awesome nonetheless. But I imagine some people prefer that she isn't objectively beautiful, that way they can say that beauty isn't everything, they might hate her guts had she been even being exactly the same person...so some people just don't like you because you're objectively beautiful.

 

But think about the world as a whole, how many cultures prefer short versus tall men? or poor versus rich? or unambitious to prospering? fat versus skinny? (not starving) or family values in a man versus philandering? slutty versus the "good girl"? those are cultural stigmas or "preferences" that can affect attraction but it doesn't necessarily affect ones natural beauty, or lack thereof...it doesn't mean they don't serve as a substitute either...women might find a man hot objectively, but if he's working at a fast food joint and isn't much a provider, you're going to see that "attraction" fall off immediately for a lot of women.

 

I think a lot of those things are going to line up quite consistently because of how human beings are wired, and I feel the same goes for beauty, I believe more in science than a subjective viewpoint entirely based off cultural influences.

 

I also think there are people with "bad taste" but I think they've kind of chosen to desire other qualities...like a rebellious mission against beauty, and prefer to gravitate towards people who demonstrate an eccentric or off-the-beaten-path out of normalcy of "conforming" stereotypical attractive qualities as they see them. I think ultimately there is a lot of resentment towards objectively beautiful or attractive people because of an insecurity within people themselves, even if they were to just meet that person randomly, they might have a completely different reaction or attraction towards them.

 

Therefore that's why I feel beauty is consistently objective, but attraction/approval and even acceptance of that is psychological and determined by personal feelings.

 

But by all means, you're welcome to argue why THIS MAN is just as handsome as THIS MAN to some people because beauty is subjective.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Ninjainpajamas

[janedoe67]

I think (especially after seeing those two men) that I agree that a strict definition of what is considered physically beautiful/attractive can be fairly objective.

 

I think the question comes to this:

 

What is going to me my deciding factor when choosing someone with whom to share my life and self? Am I going to put the package at the top of the list? Or will it be character, kindness, work ethic, humor, compassion, etc. etc.

 

There are people who will not even consider someone of character unless the wrapping looks good. There are some people who will gladly put up with a snobbish, condescending, mean girl as long as she looks good in tight jeans (or he).

 

Then there are people can who appreciate physical beauty as a PART of the equation but not the whole.

 

Hence my remark about DEPTH

[Got it]

Because we are biologically hardwired to prefer certain facial and body proportions, along with symmetry and other things.

 

There is a science on it that speaks to the symmetry of features tied to "better" genes.

 

So the science is fascinating but beauty is subjective and can be influenced greatly by personality.

[Got it]

LOL at all the people saying Brad Pitt isn't attractive. I wouldn't switch teams for him or anything, but you're not convincing me he isn't hotter than 99% of men.

 

Sorry I never thought he was that good looking. I like dark features so blond and blue eyed doesn't do anything for me. Never has.

 

I appreciate that he is symmetrical features and he is classically pretty. But I am not attracted to him.

 

Now a 30 year old John Cusack? Yummy! I am definitely attracted to thinner lips, dark eyes, bigger eyes, dark haired. In fact I have a type and only dated one blond in my life.

[Shepp]

I think that an assessment of beauty can be objective, but attraction is subjective. If my job was to hire a cover model for a sweater catalog, I might call Kim Kardashian. But attracted to her? No.

 

 

Also, folks here don't have much problem saying things that aren't PC.

 

I think this is it! Beauty's objective, attraction's subjective.

 

These plenty of people who are objectively good looking that cant be denied but that im not attracted to.

[topaMAXX]

 

 

 

 

Um, excuse me, I do actually have people who find me attractive. They thin I have stand out features and think I am definitely not average to the vast majority (they cannot see that I am, where as I CAN see things for what they truly are. Where as they are BLINDED by their subjective opinion as to how they perceive my appearance).

 

It is not in my head, due to a bunch of horny dudes wanting sex form me. How insulting.

 

I DO have very good teeth and other stand out features so yeah, some people DO actually find me good looking. As hard to believe as that may be for you. They DO NOT find me to be the average gal, in THEIR eyes.

I just know that in reality, they are only SOME people, due to me not being conventionally beautiful to the masses.

To assume I am a girl and therefore I can look bland as hell and have guys worship me is Ludacris.

 

Now looks are so subjective that myself, as an average looking kind of gal, have had WAY more male and female compliments than my average looking female friends.

That's right; get a bunch of average looking women in a room and have guys rate them, and there will be VASTLY different results!

Because while still average, a lot of men like slim/curvy blondes like me, and I have some nice features even though over all I am rated as average I venture to guess.

So I have way more interest than my average friends because I have huge eyes, nice teeth and full lips where as my friends have a cute nose unlike me as well as perhaps clear skin, but they have tiny eye, thin lips and totally bland style.

Two average chicks get way different levels of male attention on any given day.

 

Objective beauty is reserved for the rare few who have mostly good or stunning features and no bad features.

 

I have a slightly crooked nose hence why I am not conventionally or objectively good looking. Honestly, all my other features are above average to most people (full lips, straight teeth, huge eyes and clear skin with small pores. Very long hair.).:p

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Minus the objectively perfect features, a person like myself for instance can have very nice features yet ONE BAD feature, such as my nose stands in my way of being objectively hot (since I am a slim yet curvy blonde with nice teeth and skin), since many men prefer small, cute button noses to longer thin ones like mine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do it to yourself; what features do YOU have that either make you objectively beautiful or alternatively, what is the ONE or TWO features that are holding you BACK from being objectively hot?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know MANY people who would be Very objectively attractive IF one or two features about them were altered.

 

 

 

It is easy for me to pick things that people warm to and find very appealing, versus things the majority DO NOT enjoy to stare at.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

even though I am not attractive to the masses like the stunning, objectively attractive people.

 

What are you talking about? I simply said that ALL women have options, while many men have absolutely zero.

 

I don't see how that was personally offensive to you.

 

And I already said what makes me universally attractive (my face and personality) and what makes me universally unattractive (my height).

[topaMAXX]

I'm too short, only 5' 6"! I'm ugly! My wallet is too small!

 

 

Are nothing more than excuses.

 

 

We men are lucky in that the opposite sex, though they do notice our physical attractiveness are much more attracted by a man's character.

His strength, and I don't mean his physical strength, but also his ability to be a man who does not make excuses and faces life head on. His confidence. His vision. His out look on life. His sense of humor.

 

 

In my dating days, I was only 5' 6" and barely tipped the scales at 130. And yet dated and had sex with more than hundreds of very beautiful and sexy women.

 

 

I married a gal, 5' 11", with a killer body, strawberry blonde, blue eyes, that was total foldout material. Yep, I caught her cheating. She even moved in with the OM and tried to flaunt her new love.

 

 

Did that get me down. Hell yes. But I did not beg or cry, and never let her know. And like a jockey made sure I got back into the saddle as soon as possible, and within a month was riding a new filly.

 

 

It was my Ex who begged me to take her back for the next 3 to 4 years.

 

 

At present I am just a couple of years away from turning 70. The lady of my life just turned 60. She is a good 2 to 3 inches taller than me and it is all in her legs. Me 30" inseam hers 36. She is beautiful, with brown hair down the middle of her back. She is a granny of a teenager and still has a flat tummy and an hour glass figure. Eye Candy. She works with the public and guys are constantly hitting on her. They get no where. She is in love with me.

 

 

Eighteen years ago at age 49, her age 40, I took her away from a guy who was 4 years younger than her, or just 36. A six plus footer, a light heavy weight boxer who looked like Steven Segal, her favorite actor.

 

Dude, no offense, but you're a baby boomer. My parents are almost your age.

 

Based on the stories my parents have told me about dating and how my dad got my mom, it might as well have happened on the moon.

 

Dating is VERY different for younger people. And women have changed too (in a bad way) from the past.

[Leigh 87]

What are you talking about? I simply said that ALL women have options, while many men have absolutely zero.

 

I don't see how that was personally offensive to you.

 

And I already said what makes me universally attractive (my face and personality) and what makes me universally unattractive (my height).

 

 

 

I thought you were alluding to my being delusional about always having a few people who find be attractive.

 

My point was also:

Objectively GREAT looking people get clearly more attention than objectively foul looking people, sure. THAT is consistent.

Where as average folks like me and the other plain Janes out there DO NOT get the same level of attention.

 

Not all average girls have ample men who think they are gorgeous lol. A girl with thin lips, small eyes yet nice skin and average all around would get less attention than me due to me having large eyes, full lips and etc.

 

Two people can be average yet one can get more attention than the other, routinely too.

Even though in general, 1000 guys would likely give them the same rating out of ten if their ratings were levelled out to find an average....

I honestly notice that some girls get WAY more attention than others, even if they are BOTH average in general by most guys standards.

I really have noticed this. I get WAY more attention than my average sisters. I am not the only one who notices it.

 

If looks were purely objective, me and my average friends would receive the SAME amount of attention in public places; that would prove that looks ARE ALWAYS objective.

Instead, average people vary in the attention they get. Because people have variation in taste. Some girls like me, whilst average, have stand out features and a stand out dress sense that grabs attention more than the thin lipped, small eyed plain Jane who is just as attractive as me, yet... doesn't have the same appeal on average, when we are to go out together.

 

 

 

It is only straight forward when we are comparing apples and oranges; the most desirable people versus the most unpleasant looking people.

 

 

 

 

 

Me and the rest of us are pretty much lumped together with the average label, if asked by a million people we would likely receive the same score.....

Yet we would all get differing amounts of regular attention, even though we are all average looking according to the vast majority and society as a whole.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Leigh 87

[2.50 a gallon]

topaM

 

 

Yes a lot has changed in the past 20 years. But have you never heard the old saying of the more things change the more they stay the same.

 

 

Take war for example. Look at the changes that have taken place in the military in the quarter-millennium of our countries existence. We've gone from smooth bore black powder rifles, to machine guns, wooden ships, to iron ships, and air craft carriers carrying super-sonic planes capable of putting a bomb thru somebodies front door. And yet the very basic doctrine of war still followed to this day was written over 2,000 years ago.

 

 

It is the same with excuse makers. We had them when I was in college, and we still have them today.

 

 

The same with love. Oh and by the way, I do have great nieces and nephews, and several friends who have children in the 18 - 25 year range, whom I am very close with. So, I have a pretty good idea of what is happening. Women still want the same thing in their men.

 

 

Oh and I might be close to 70, but oddly enough I am still being hit on, all 5'4" (I've shrunk) and 155 pounds topped by an all white beard. They are mostly in the 40 - 50 year range. However 18 months ago, a 25 year old and a 28 year old invited me over for a 3-some. I met them waiting in line at the check out stand at a grocery store, where they were buying the beer.

 

 

And last summer, I had a 28 year old ask me to concert.

 

 

When was the last time you was hit on?

[Revolver]

I think there's a bandwagon type effect when it comes to certain male celebrities attractiveness.

[iris219]

While it varies some, what we consider attractive is based on biology. We want to mate with people who look healthy.

 

Some of it is driven by societal norms as well.

 

Fortunately, we choose mates based on criteria other than just physical attractiveness, so being objectively good looking is not necessary when it comes to finding love, though it can be helpful.

[janedoe67]

We want to mate with people who look healthy.

 

Sometimes I wonder if this is still true:

 

http://e-cloudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/keira-knightley.jpg

 

Cause THAT ain't healthy

[Mr Scorpio]

Sometimes I wonder if this is still true:

http://e-cloudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/keira-knightley.jpg

Cause THAT ain't healthy

 

We would have to know her weight to accurately assess whether or not she is healthy. She interweb claims she is 5'7 and 119lbs. Seems plausible to me.