"Nice" guys

[MixedUpChick]

The sad thing is that you probably really, truly believe this.

 

Yes of course I believe it, because it's true. It constantly amazes me to see men on this site who think that just because they've witnessed SOME women passing over the so-called "nice guys" for bad boys/jerks/what-have-you, that you make the blanket assumption that all women are this way.

 

I've got news for you: All women are not the same, any more than all men are the same.

[atlg8r]

And as another poster said, ignoring women, get's them so mad on hunting and wanting you, i have experienced it myself.

I will never understand why it works like this, some psychological stuff going on there.

Or dating ex-inmates/losers that are just more masculine, i see this way too often.

 

Let me make it short.

When a woman says she wants a nice sweet guy that treats her right.

All she is saying is "i want you to be sweet and nice every now and then and RESPECT me". But for the rest of the time they want you to be agressive and decisive, make their skin crawl. Be a man not a puss, dominate her in general.

 

Most nice guys lack that, they don't have to be a doormat, it's just that they lack this agresiveness/masculinity that women themselves sometimes don't know that it's what they want.

 

I've seen it, women making the realization after a relationship with a nice guy, most of them never admit. Some will finally realize he was too sweet and that they wanted more agression.

Like i said, they don't have to be a doormat, they just lacked any agression, are to passive, that's what most nice guys are like.

 

I really disagree with this unless you are dating stupid, vapid women. I do not need a man to "dominate" me. I want someone who is strong, capable and willing to be the "man of the house" but it has nothing to do with dominance or aggression.

[atlg8r]

This is so true you have no ideea, seeen it and personally experienced it way to often.

This sums up pretty nicely what's the truth.

Also notice the bolded part, it's available for most women.

 

I've had at least 2 women make up BS excuses and question my "nice" behavior. They just couldn't admit to not liking what they wanted, and told me they wanted.

They started to be all like "you're jut being this nice to get in my pants, it's all a malefical ploy to fool me". <--this was a response to when i told her we can wait and there's no rush to sex if she doesn't feel ready. I was seriously like WTFBBQ Y_Y.

+ a whole lot of other bull**** excuses, there's no point to exemplify.

 

Anyhoo, after that i started being more of a ass, this increased my chances exponentially, but i soon realized that it isn't me so i said **** it.

If they can't like me for me, i don't mind being single, it's how i've been raised...obviously the wrong way to get women.

But i got used to being like this and i won't change now, i like myself.

 

 

Both, but mostly they are just arroused by them. Carring = he is nice friend material, would not do.

Agressive = doable

 

Maybe they just don't like you. It is possible to be a wonderful, equal-parts nice and "jerky", smart, funny, etc. and the woman still not be the right fit for you or vice versa.

 

Maybe the "BS excuse" is just because she doesn't feel it for you, and it may have nothing to do with what she actually says. I told guys before it wasn't good timing just to avoid hurting their feelings because it was actually just them I wasn't into. I couldn't put my finger on it. I really liked in particular this one guy, but not in a romantic sense. It felt more like conversing with my brother or cousin than a romantic prospect. There wasn't anything wrong with him. He is an attractive guy, very smart, nice to me but also had a bit of attitude sometimes. For whatever reason, it just didn't click.

 

Instead of pigeon-holing all girls into jerk-bait, maybe you should just be a fun, decent person and assume that the right girl will come along at some point.

[Hello_is_it_me]

What's up with the idea that some men seem to have here, that being a "nice guy" means being a doormat?

 

And also that if being a door mat doesn't "work" to get you girls, then you might as well give up and be a bitter jerk?

 

I think it's completely possible to be a "nice guy" (i.e. friendly, polite, agreeable) but still demand respect from other people. I'd hold my own partner up as an example of this - he is very polite and respectful to me, but won't take any crap either - and I find it a very attractive trait in him.

 

So where does this idea come from, that a guy has to be either a weak doormat, or a arrogant jerk?

 

It's not an attitude that most of my real life male friends have, but I've seen it a bit on this forum (and have seen it occasionally in real life, generally in guys that are single - I don't think that's a coincidence, either).

 

You're not understanding that it's not a good thing to be TOO nice. Agreeable on everything... A pushover... Some of the guys on here are blatantly this. But you describe your partner as a mix of polite and having a backbone. So yeah, the extremes you posted will be bad but let's not see everything in absolutes.

 

Agressive dbag = bad

Pansy beta pushover = bad

Respectful, stands up for self = good

 

Rocket science, ppl!!

[TB Rhine]

And we're all slaves to our genes? No one has ever made a decision that wasn't in line with our evolutionary programming?

 

Of course they have -- this is why we have divorces, women sleeping with the pool boy, etc.

 

Being nice is like including wheels on a car... it should come standard.

 

Funny, then, how so many women stay with men who abuse them and rape their children. Guess they're not really hung up on those "standard" options!

 

Guys who pretend to be your friend in order to back-door their way into a relationship, and withdraw the friendship as soon as they don't get what they want, absolutely ARE "putting one over."

 

This is the fundamental female misunderstanding -- these guys were never "pretending to want to be your friend." They were courting you, according to the standards endorsed by popular culture, and then scratching their heads in bewilderment when you hit them with this "friend" business. Surprise, peanut -- a guy who wants to be your friend doesn't offer to chauffeur you about and pay for your meals. He punches you on the arm and asks you to hang out with him and the guys or something. You're friendzoning guys who are trying to romantically pursue you, then getting pissy when they decline to continue being your money slaves.

[atlg8r]

Funny, then, how so many women stay with men who abuse them and rape their children. Guess they're not really hung up on those "standard" options!

 

These are some of the stupid women I and others have referenced. My assumption would be that any man I would ever be interested in would realize a woman who stays in an abusive (toward her OR her children) relationship is not the type to pursue. I feel like whenever I have these discussions about what women want or how men should court women, we should automatically have the caveat that we're talking about classy, intelligent women and non-douchey men. lol

[joystickd]

I know I will get crap for saying it but it's my opinion.

 

I've always had this saying for guys that want to improve with women: Mom was wrong.

 

On some level nice guys exist because of what their moms told them and for some it was the lack of a father. Women on some level never really fully communicated really what nice really meant to a male growing up. Part of it is the media. The movies that sell the BS dream that the "nice guy" will have success

[topaMAXX]

I know I will get crap for saying it but it's my opinion.

 

I've always had this saying for guys that want to improve with women: Mom was wrong.

 

On some level nice guys exist because of what their moms told them and for some it was the lack of a father. Women on some level never really fully communicated really what nice really meant to a male growing up. Part of it is the media. The movies that sell the BS dream that the "nice guy" will have success

 

You are wrong, my friend. "Nice guys" being unsuccessful with women is a CULTURAL phenomenon. It used to be true and used to work (that's why many parents advocate it).

 

In other cultures, women LOVE chivalry and love nice guys (though, this is beginning to change as more countries become Americanized).

 

Of course, nice, productive men being treated like crap by women is not something that is sustainable. Life is cyclical. Eventually, when our empire collapses (which will be soon), things will return back to their natural order.

[GoodOnPaper]

You are wrong, my friend. "Nice guys" being unsuccessful with women is a CULTURAL phenomenon. It used to be true and used to work (that's why many parents advocate it).

 

Those of us who are children of the '80s remember the extreme mixed messages out there during our formative dating years. John Cusack rom-coms were going head-to-head with heavy metal bands that were raising the bad-boy persona to unprecedented heights. The first time I heard of the "nice guy" phenomenon was in the early '90s in my grad school's campus newspaper. They did a segment that ran for about 3 months due to its popularity. Since then, there has been a growing disconnect between how you attract women and how you navigate through the rest of your life. As a guy, it seems you have to be two completely different people in one.

[verhrzn]

You are wrong, my friend. "Nice guys" being unsuccessful with women is a CULTURAL phenomenon. It used to be true and used to work (that's why many parents advocate it).

 

In other cultures, women LOVE chivalry and love nice guys (though, this is beginning to change as more countries become Americanized).

 

Of course, nice, productive men being treated like crap by women is not something that is sustainable. Life is cyclical. Eventually, when our empire collapses (which will be soon), things will return back to their natural order.

 

... Eventually women won't be able to provide for themselves, and will have to just accept whatever guy has the very base qualities for an acceptable mate?

 

Cause here's the thing fellas.... it worked in the past because women had no options. They had to marry to survive.

 

Now women can support themselves, which means "nice" is the baseline thing women look for. "Nice" is like wheels on a car. You obviously want a car with wheels, but you want more than just wheels in a car (you also want, say, a steering wheel, and maybe some AC.)

 

You should be nice. But you should be something else along with nice. I do not understand what is difficult about this concept! And I absolutely do not understand why certain guys want to revert back to a world where a woman swallowed her disgust and settled for a guy because she had to. Wouldn't you rather, ya know, improve as a person (be more than just 'nice') and find a woman who actually digs you, who isn't just holding her to be with you??

[atlg8r]

It's a messed up situation entirely. People's priorities are all out of whack for both genders.

 

Most men are following an unrealistic standard of beauty thanks to the modeling/acting industries and Photoshop. So they mostly want really "hot", bone thin women with big boobs or whatever. Those women are typically (sorry not sorry) more superficial and are looking for a certain standard of living. A lot of them will put up with bad behavior from their men because the money and standard of living are more important to them than the partnership. Thus, the "nice" guys say all women want bad boys, when in fact they are ignoring a large set of women who may not fit today's standard definition of beauty but would appreciate the good qualities they possess.

 

Likewise, a lot of women want everything - a guy who looks great with his shirt off, who makes good money and can give them the romantic life presented in fictional tv/movies who goes overboard with romance like Ryan Gosling in the Notebook. And they will ignore guys who don't fit those molds because of what society tells us is ideal.

 

Add to that the decaying moral fabric of America where people sleep together at random and with no thought of the future. If a woman does not put out rather quickly, there are any number of women who will do so, so what is there to make a guy stick around for a "good" woman? Nothing. He can get the milk for free from any number of women.

 

Sadly, I don't see it getting any better. I have no idea how I got so lucky to find my fiance.

[joystickd]

... Eventually women won't be able to provide for themselves, and will have to just accept whatever guy has the very base qualities for an acceptable mate?

 

Cause here's the thing fellas.... it worked in the past because women had no options. They had to marry to survive.

 

Now women can support themselves, which means "nice" is the baseline thing women look for. "Nice" is like wheels on a car. You obviously want a car with wheels, but you want more than just wheels in a car (you also want, say, a steering wheel, and maybe some AC.)

 

You should be nice. But you should be something else along with nice. I do not understand what is difficult about this concept! And I absolutely do not understand why certain guys want to revert back to a world where a woman swallowed her disgust and settled for a guy because she had to. Wouldn't you rather, ya know, improve as a person (be more than just 'nice') and find a woman who actually digs you, who isn't just holding her to be with you??

Problem is women aren't clearcut on what nice is. Then the other thing is what women say they want usually isn't what they are attracted to and that is what a man on the outside sees. Nice usually denotes a certain image and the women that usually say they want nice usually want men that are not that stereotypical image. Then the whole new thing of demonizing nice guys "If he was nice he wouldn't have been upset he got rejected." or "He was only nice because he was after one thing.". Now you have frustrated nice guys. They are genuinely nice but the consistent rejections have them frustrated. In general the dating dynamic is confusing for men sometimes because of women being motivated by emotion.

[atlg8r]

Problem is women aren't clearcut on what nice is. Then the other thing is what women say they want usually isn't what they are attracted to and that is what a man on the outside sees. Nice usually denotes a certain image and the women that usually say they want nice usually want men that are not that stereotypical image. Then the whole new thing of demonizing nice guys "If he was nice he wouldn't have been upset he got rejected." or "He was only nice because he was after one thing.". Now you have frustrated nice guys. They are genuinely nice but the consistent rejections have them frustrated. In general the dating dynamic is confusing for men sometimes because of women being motivated by emotion.

 

Stop worrying so much about what a woman defines as nice, and just be what you think is a good person. The right woman will like you or love you because of who you are and how you treat her and others, not because you fit some "definition".

[joystickd]

Stop worrying so much about what a woman defines as nice, and just be what you think is a good person. The right woman will like you or love you because of who you are and how you treat her and others, not because you fit some "definition".

I'm just saying in general. I'm far from a nice guy lol. Just saying what I have been observing

[joystickd]

And I absolutely do not understand why certain guys want to revert back to a world where a woman swallowed her disgust and settled for a guy because she had to. Wouldn't you rather, ya know, improve as a person (be more than just 'nice') and find a woman who actually digs you, who isn't just holding her to be with you??

No guy wants to revert back to that world. Guys that are nice guys are frustrated because they bought into what the world told them and it's not happening. This is all they know and have been taught. This is what women don't understand. They are kind of like the woman that uses sex to get a man and they get frustrated because they can't have a relationship. It's all they know. It's easy to say improve as a person because we are not dealing with that struggle.

[verhrzn]

Problem is women aren't clearcut on what nice is. Then the other thing is what women say they want usually isn't what they are attracted to and that is what a man on the outside sees. Nice usually denotes a certain image and the women that usually say they want nice usually want men that are not that stereotypical image. Then the whole new thing of demonizing nice guys "If he was nice he wouldn't have been upset he got rejected." or "He was only nice because he was after one thing.". Now you have frustrated nice guys. They are genuinely nice but the consistent rejections have them frustrated. In general the dating dynamic is confusing for men sometimes because of women being motivated by emotion.

 

Well if you're only being nice in the hopes of getting laid, then you are not actually nice. You are manipulative. So the guys are frustrating themselves-they're trying to manipulate women into sleeping with them by being This Thing they think women want, and then getting mad when it doesn't work.

 

You should be nice because it's the ethical, morally correct thing to do. You should be nice even when it gets you nothing. If you are expecting a reward/a cookie for being nice, you are doing it wrong.

 

Imagine how ridiculous it would be if I came onto here and complained how okay, I'm ugly and have no other defining characteristics, but I'm nice, why won't guys date me? Guys are always saying they can't find any woman of good moral character, and here I am being nice!

 

Guys here would laugh me off the board! So then why turn around and judge women for not immediately jumping on a "nice" guy? Why not acknowledge that just like men, women want more than just nice.

 

Also, it's sad I find it necessary to point out, but men are motivated by emotion in dating too. Everyone has different definitions about what they meant when they say X. Dating is individualist and varied-none of us are a hive mind or a monolith. So why do "nice guys" keep expecting all women to march to the same drum of "Well Woman A said this is nice, why doesn't Woman B think this is nice?"

[verhrzn]

No guy wants to revert back to that world. Guys that are nice guys are frustrated because they bought into what the world told them and it's not happening. This is all they know and have been taught. This is what women don't understand. They are kind of like the woman that uses sex to get a man and they get frustrated because they can't have a relationship. It's all they know. It's easy to say improve as a person because we are not dealing with that struggle.

 

Um, I have dealt with that struggle. Because women ARE told that all the time. Do X, be Y, stop doing Z, and you'll get a man! Men are told to be "nice." Women, on the other hand, are told their entire lives to be nice and sweet, but not naive, be sexy but not too sexual (or else you're a slut/trash), be independent (don't be a gold digger) but don't be too ambitious.

 

I have gotten these sorts of constant messages my entire life, and yet more or less figured out how to navigate them (be myself, treat people respectfully, and let the chips fall where they may with some tweaks.) So sorry if I have not a whole lot of sympathy for the poor plight of the Nice Guy... his situation is really not all that unique or, in the end, that much of a terrible burden.

 

I mean, I was told as a kid that I could be President. You don't see me cursing the world because oh man, it didn't turn out that way.

 

(And I continue to insist that telling guys to be nice is NOT a lie. Guys just misinterpret the advice and assume being nice is all they need.)

[Candy_Pants]

No guy wants to revert back to that world. Guys that are nice guys are frustrated because they bought into what the world told them and it's not happening. This is all they know and have been taught. This is what women don't understand. They are kind of like the woman that uses sex to get a man and they get frustrated because they can't have a relationship. It's all they know. It's easy to say improve as a person because we are not dealing with that struggle.

Self proclaimed "nice guys" are usually not very nice at all. Doormats, no boundaries, giving too much, and being too available. Those are classic "nice guy" traits. I want a man with a ****ing backbone. Who makes me have to prove myself a bit before I get to see his soft side. Who doesn't text and call and compliment and give me gifts 24/7 before I've even agreed to an actual date.

 

Women don't like a-holes, they like the challenge they present. But a-holes are bad for the long term. We want men who aren't hovering around us as "friends" while we're dating someone else, still hoping to get scraps (pity dates or sex).

 

And guess what, rejection is a part of life. You can learn from it, or run away with your tail tucked between your legs. But who do you think women want to ****, men with confidence to continue on and refuse to be embittered by life, or men who bitch and moan about how crappy life and dating treat them even though everyone is in the same rat race?

 

Edit: This is coming from a woman who had to do 90% of the pursuing. And sorry for the generalizations .

Edited April 11, 2014 by Candy_Pants

[joystickd]

Dating is individualist and varied-none of us are a hive mind or a monolith. So why do "nice guys" keep expecting all women to march to the same drum of "Well Woman A said this is nice, why doesn't Woman B think this is nice?"

This same statement could be turned around for women. On some level women expect men to march to the same drum. Anyway we all do what works man or woman. It's not about expecting everyone to march to the same drum. Women get so bent out of shape about things they forget that simple fact. People do what works and that is a universal fact. It's individualist in the sense that what works is different for most people. When you really think about it nice guys are a small segment of guys. Like me for instance I learned casual works for me. I can't go out and do the whole dating and nice stuff. It's not me and women that deal with me see it's not me. The bad thing about it is that I tend to attract a lot of married women.

 

I should have kept the other statements in the quotes. You have this small segment frustrated and they are no different than any group of men and women like older women that are frustrated with younger women, short men with tall men, etc. When we all during bad times look at the other side and think they have it better. In some ways they do and some they don't. It's not about making someone date them or reverting back to old ways. That is just over dramatizing the issue. They just want to be seen as dateable that is all and have the opposite sex acknowledge them. Just like what you want or anyone else

[hasaquestion]

This same statement could be turned around for women. On some level women expect men to march to the same drum. Anyway we all do what works man or woman. It's not about expecting everyone to march to the same drum. Women get so bent out of shape about things they forget that simple fact. People do what works and that is a universal fact. It's individualist in the sense that what works is different for most people. When you really think about it nice guys are a small segment of guys. Like me for instance I learned casual works for me. I can't go out and do the whole dating and nice stuff. It's not me and women that deal with me see it's not me. The bad thing about it is that I tend to attract a lot of married women.

 

I should have kept the other statements in the quotes. You have this small segment frustrated and they are no different than any group of men and women like older women that are frustrated with younger women, short men with tall men, etc. When we all during bad times look at the other side and think they have it better. In some ways they do and some they don't. It's not about making someone date them or reverting back to old ways. That is just over dramatizing the issue. They just want to be seen as dateable that is all and have the opposite sex acknowledge them. Just like what you want or anyone else

 

When you're on a forum for relationship advice you will see more people who have these issues than an actual real life segment of the population. I think Loveshack magnifies some problems.

[verhrzn]

This same statement could be turned around for women. On some level women expect men to march to the same drum. Anyway we all do what works man or woman. It's not about expecting everyone to march to the same drum. Women get so bent out of shape about things they forget that simple fact. People do what works and that is a universal fact. It's individualist in the sense that what works is different for most people. When you really think about it nice guys are a small segment of guys. Like me for instance I learned casual works for me. I can't go out and do the whole dating and nice stuff. It's not me and women that deal with me see it's not me. The bad thing about it is that I tend to attract a lot of married women.

 

If men "do what works", then nice guys have absolutely nothing to complain about. They should never be "nice guys" in the first place, if people just "do what works." You are exhibiting faulty logic.... nice guys cannot complain that they were "told" this works, and boo-hoo it isn't working for them, and then turn around and claim they "do what works." It's one or the other.

 

I also find it bizarre that you say on the one hand people "do what works," and then acknowledge it's "different for everyone." Um... then what's your point with the first statement? If you acknowledge that different things work for different people, then how the heck can you claim there's one universal thing that works or doesn't work?? What?

[joystickd]

If men "do what works", then nice guys have absolutely nothing to complain about. They should never be "nice guys" in the first place, if people just "do what works." You are exhibiting faulty logic.... nice guys cannot complain that they were "told" this works, and boo-hoo it isn't working for them, and then turn around and claim they "do what works." It's one or the other.

 

I also find it bizarre that you say on the one hand people "do what works," and then acknowledge it's "different for everyone." Um... then what's your point with the first statement? If you acknowledge that different things work for different people, then how the heck can you claim there's one universal thing that works or doesn't work?? What?

This is what I said:People do what works and that is a universal fact. It's individualist in the sense that what works is different for most people. When you really think about it nice guys are a small segment of guys.

 

 

I meant is a universal fact people do what works. I never stated a universal thing. What works can be what works for them or what they have seen works. The small segment of men known as nice guys they have seen on some level nice works. Also they get in the game so on some level it does work for them. They may not have the desired end result but they get "off the bench and in the game".

 

I tend to agree with another user a lot of issues get magnified because we see 10-20 people on a thread agree but fail to realize billions of people in the world and these people in real life tend to be needles in a haystack.

[Anela]

 

I should have kept the other statements in the quotes. You have this small segment frustrated and they are no different than any group of men and women like older women that are frustrated with younger women, short men with tall men, etc. When we all during bad times look at the other side and think they have it better. In some ways they do and some they don't. It's not about making someone date them or reverting back to old ways. That is just over dramatizing the issue. They just want to be seen as dateable that is all and have the opposite sex acknowledge them. Just like what you want or anyone else

 

Who says that we're frustrated with younger women? We used to be younger women, and are usually friends with them, as well. It's the attitude towards aging women, overweight women, those of us who aren't gorgeous, that sucks. I feel sorry for the younger women who are swarmed to, solely because of their looks, and they get to not be so bitter (something older women are continually accused of being, and why? Because we're getting treated like sh*t), for the most part, because they still have their whole lives ahead of them. For every man who complains about women, how being married sucked, and so on, there's a woman who was either stuck in that marriage and wanted out, or was dumped, and is equally sad over the fact that her marriage is gone. the life she envisioned for herself and her family, is no more.

 

Regarding age, there's someone here who was raving about all of the attention he's getting, thanks to his young, beautiful SB. She's a trophy, and I do not envy her, even though she seems to see it as a business opportunity.

[joystickd]

Who says that we're frustrated with younger women? We used to be younger women, and are usually friends with them, as well. It's the attitude towards aging women, overweight women, those of us who aren't gorgeous, that sucks. I feel sorry for the younger women who are swarmed to, solely because of their looks, and they get to not be so bitter (something older women are continually accused of being, and why? Because we're getting treated like sh*t), for the most part, because they still have their whole lives ahead of them. For every man who complains about women, how being married sucked, and so on, there's a woman who was either stuck in that marriage and wanted out, or was dumped, and is equally sad over the fact that her marriage is gone. the life she envisioned for herself and her family, is no more.

 

Regarding age, there's someone here who was raving about all of the attention he's getting, thanks to his young, beautiful SB. She's a trophy, and I do not envy her, even though she seems to see it as a business opportunity.

You obviously showed you had issues with younger women. I was just making a general statement and you took it to heart

[Man Mountain Makino]

The strange thing about many self-described nice guys is that they're often not very nice.