why do some ow think this...?

[Hope Shimmers]

DKT3, to me it seemed as if Hope Shimmers was listening to you, hearing what you were saying and offering in a respectful, intelligent, well-informed and nonjudgmental manner excellent information for you to consider.

 

I also went back to reread her posts to you and couldn't figure out why you thought she was taking offense to your opinions. The only thing I could think of as a possibility is that you might think since she didn't agree with you she was offended by you. Idk. It seemed to me she was just again, respectfully, offering rebuttals.

 

Just so you know, I'm not offended!

 

Thanks Speaking I think the comment "you're not hearing what I'm saying" really meant "you're not agreeing with what I'm saying". Some people do not deal well with having their opinions questioned. Especially when it is done in a logical way because then it can't be disputed simply by emotion. Makes no matter to me.

 

Just want to note that I don't understand why you think Hope Shimmers seemed a little angry. Only reason I mention it is because another poster on this thread posted he thought she was offended. I truly didn't see anger or offense registered in any of her posts at all.

 

She seems to me to be part of the conversation presenting her ideas in a logical, emotionally neutral and intelligent manner.

 

This is curious to me and I truly wonder about it.

 

Again... I think it was construed that my questions were read as an interference in a conversation that was really meant for BS's (see the thread title). I just meant to offer my thoughts as I don't like generalizations and the tone of some things that I just feel are hurtful to other human beings who also have feelings. It's just unnecessary to be hurtful in my opinion. And I'm not referring to the thread-starter; just comments on the thread in general.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Hope Shimmers

[Hope Shimmers]

not all ws are there for just the kids,in my situation my kids are grown living on there own,some ws want to work on the marriage,and its up to them to make it right with the bs,some ws get kicked to the curb on dday,and beg for a second chance,it happens alot

 

I agree.

 

There are many reasons why the WS doesn't leave at D-day. It may be because he or she honestly wants to repair the marriage. It may be that they were never intending to leave in the first place. However, I think many times it is because they are too weak to do what it takes to leave a home situation and disrupt everything financially, as well as the family dynamic. They want to keep the status quo. Which is why so many of them go back to the OW (or find a different OW) when things quiet down.

[Speakingofwhich]

Affairs grow on a foundation of lies and betrayal, how can they be real? I can understand how single women can become emotionally vested with MM. What she has to understand is she is dealing with a liar and cheater. Yet they hang on to every word, and believe him whole heartedly.

 

I have tons of friends that has or is cheating, in most cases we will sit around and joke about the things they say to the OW to prolong the affair. I have one friend who went as far as having divorce papers drawn to show is AP, yet had no intention on divorcing his wife.

 

Point being, while the OW is truely in the "RELATIONSHIP" 9 of 10 times the WH is into the sex or in some cases the companionship but not the relationship. They simply aren't emotionally vested dispite what he tell the OW.

 

Not every OW believes MM wholeheartedly!

 

You have tons of friends who are cheating or have cheated? And you sit there along with these "friends" and joke about the things they say about these women they're cheating with?

 

Possibly, DKT3, given your emotional make up (because it seems you'd have to be a little unemotional to sit around and joke about infidelity after what you've been through with your W) you find it believable that other men aren't emotionally vested (sic) in their Rs. Probably some, like your friends, aren't. However, there are other types of people out there.

 

There are men who would never sit around and listen to a person being mocked, much less laugh about it.

[Hope Shimmers]

You have tons of friends who are cheating or have cheated? And you sit there along with these "friends" and joke about the things they say about these women they're cheating with?

 

That is really frightening. I think you need some new friends DKT3. Or to expand your horizons, because this certainly does not represent "most" men.

 

However, now I see where your 'statistics' come from. I feel sorry for everyone involved with men like this, especially their wives.

[SolG]

Let me offer you analogy. The artistic lawyer--Al for short--used to love law. He chose to study law because of is passion for the subject. After graduating, he joined a law firm and revelled in actually practicing. He was very successful and lived accordingly; he made partner, drove a prestige European car, lived in a beautiful comfortable house, and had a lovely family.

 

But eventually something wasn't quite right. His career started to become less exciting and ho hum <or substitute whatever works for you; eg, he started to hate work, constant disagreements with his boss made work uncomfortable, he resented work.... etc>. And Al began to remember how much he used to love art and painting way back before law became his life.

 

Al decides that, despite his firm's policy against partners undertaking other consuming employment or hobbies without endorsement, Al rents a studio and takes up painting. He spends increasingly more and more time at the studio. He feels young again, and invigorated; like he hasn't in years. He shows some of his work to a gallery and is told that he is incredibly talented and could have his own exhibition. At this point, so many things could happen. I invite you to choose your own ending for Al:

 

1. Due to his increasing neglect of his career, Al's boss tracks him down, finds out he is putting most of his efforts into his 'hobby' and threatens to fire him if doesn't quit and refocus on work. Al does one of the following:

 

1a. The confrontation with his boss is an epiphany for Al. When threatened with its loss, he realises how much he actually does appreciate and want to keep his career. Although he has some slight nostalgia for painting, he happily goes back to work and throws himself into reinvigorating his career.

 

1b. The confrontation with his boss really scares Al. He loves painting... but he also feels he needs the security that his career provides. The status and social standing, the comfort, money, car, house, etc. Al is really, really torn and finds it difficult to make a decision. At the end of the day Al quits painting and goes back to the career he finds dull and boring and has no passion for; purely because he cannot face the consequences of leaving. Although he will never pick up another paintbrush, he still loves painting and will forever.

 

1c. Al quits his job. He knows that painting is what he really wants to do with his life. He hopes in time that his boss will get over it and be less hurt and angry. He actually was kind fond of his boss and hopes they can be civil.

 

2. No body ever finds out and Al continues to both paint and practice law for the rest of his life. He finds that they are complementary and when practiced concurrently, make him feel quite contented with life. He resists the urgings from both his boss and art dealer to become more committed to their respective areas; hi lies outrageously to both of them to keep them off his back. He likes things the way there are and will work to keep them that way.

 

3. Al soon gets sick of painting; it was a flash in the pan passion. He moves on to sculpture... and then print making... etc, etc, etc. Al is convinced that his career will never satisfy him, but neither will just one other interest. He needs, and deserves, constant variety in his life. He continues to successfully practice law, and also satisfy his artistic bent with a string of extracurricular activities.

 

4. One day Al wakes us and decides he's had enough of painting. He's got it out of his system. He tells his boss what he's been doing, and goes back to law reinvigorated. Over time his boss forgives him and Al's career flourishes.

 

5. Over time, Al finds that he is becoming more and more attached to painting. He still goes to work, but work gets less and less attention... but he lives for his time in the studio. Al knows he can't go on like this; his boss is unimpressed with him, and the art dealer is pressing him to have an exhibition. Outcomes here similar to 1a - 1c, but without the confrontation.

 

This is by no means exhaustive - there are probably a gazillion permutations! Al has many CHOICES; he makes them himself for his own reasons. However, not every choice represents a want for Al; indeed, some choices may leave him feeling miserable and trapped. But by his own doing.

 

So it is with MM/WH. He will ultimately choose what he chooses; of his own volition. And in doing so he will also choose corresponding consequences for his actions. I don't think too many OW would actually believe that their MM doesn't have free will and choices (I hope). I think what some OW may be trying to convey is that their MM is conflicted by his choices, that he may 'feel' trapped in his marriage, that he feels that the set of choices he has all lead to consequences he finds painful and undesirable.

 

This is entirely different to the belief that MM as an adult is being involuntarily held hostage by his BS :-/ This is just as naive as believing that people make choices purely on the basis of what they 'want' in the literal sense of acting something you positively desire. Tough life decisions are just as likely to be driven by fear of consequences, wanting to do (and/or be seen to do) the morally right thing, ambition, responsibility, etc, etc.

 

I think OW (myself included) and BS both make the mistake of oversimplifying complex thoughts and contexts down to very binary views. Eg, He hasn't made the choice to be with me, therefore his wife must be keeping him hostage; or, he chose to R with me, therefore he actually wants me as a partner more than his xOW. The truth is very rarely that simple. Why do they do it? Basically because it makes them feel better and helps them get through.

Edited April 9, 2014 by SolG

[Hope Shimmers]

Let me offer you analogy. The artistic lawyer--Al for short--used to love law. He chose to study law because of is passion for the subject. After graduating, he joined a law firm and revelled in actually practicing. He was very successful and lived accordingly; he made partner, drove a prestige European car, lived in a beautiful comfortable house, and had a lovely family.

 

But eventually something wasn't quite right. His career started to become less exciting and ho hum <or substitute whatever works for you; eg, he started to hate work, constant disagreements with his boss made work uncomfortable, he resented work.... etc>. And Al began to remember how much he used to love art and painting way back before law became his life.

 

Al decides that, despite his firm's policy against partners undertaking other consuming employment or hobbies without endorsement, Al rents a studio and takes up painting. He spends increasingly more and more time at the studio. He feels young again, and invigorated; like he hasn't in years. He shows some of his work to a gallery and is told that he is incredibly talented and could have his own exhibition. At this point, so many things could happen. I invite you to choose your own ending for Al:

 

1. Due to his increasing neglect of his career, Al's boss tracks him down, finds out he is putting most of his efforts into his 'hobby' and threatens to fire him if doesn't quit and refocus on work. Al does one of the following:

 

1a. The confrontation with his boss is an epiphany for Al. When threatened with its loss, he realises how much he actually does appreciate and want to keep his career. Although he has some slight nostalgia for painting, he happily goes back to work and throws himself into reinvigorating his career.

 

1b. The confrontation with his boss really scares Al. He loves painting... but he also feels he needs the security that his career provides. The status and social standing, the comfort, money, car, house, etc. Al is really, really torn and finds it difficult to make a decision. At the end of the day Al quits painting and goes back to the career he finds dull and boring and has no passion for; purely because he cannot face the consequences of leaving. Although he will never pick up another paintbrush, he still loves painting and will forever.

 

1c. Al quits his job. He knows that painting is what he really wants to do with his life. He hopes in time that his boss will get over it and be less hurt and angry. He actually was kind fond of his boss and hopes they can be civil.

 

2. No body ever finds out and Al continues to both paint and practice law for the rest of his life. He finds that they are complementary and when practiced concurrently, make him feel quite contented with life. He resists the urgings from both his boss and art dealer to become more committed to their respective areas; hi lies outrageously to both of them to keep them off his back. He likes things the way there are and will work to keep them that way.

 

3. Al soon gets sick of painting; it was a flash in the pan passion. He moves on to sculpture... and then print making... etc, etc, etc. Al is convinced that his career will never satisfy him, but neither will just one other interest. He needs, and deserves, constant variety in his life. He continues to successfully practice law, and also satisfy his artistic bent with a string of extracurricular activities.

 

4. One day Al wakes us and decides he's had enough of painting. He's got it out of his system. He tells his boss what he's been doing, and goes back to law reinvigorated. Over time his boss forgives him and Al's career flourishes.

 

5. Over time, Al finds that he is becoming more and more attached to painting. He still goes to work, but work gets less and less attention... but he lives for his time in the studio. Al knows he can't go on like this; his boss is unimpressed with him, and the art dealer is pressing him to have an exhibition. Outcomes here similar to 1a - 1c, but without the confrontation.

 

This is by no means exhaustive - there are probably a gazillion permutations! Al has many CHOICES; he makes them himself for his own reasons. However, not every choice represents a want for Al; indeed, some choices may leave him feeling miserable and trapped. But by his own doing.

 

So it is with MM/WH. He will ultimately choose what he chooses; of his own volition. And in doing so he will also choose corresponding consequences for his actions. I don't think too many OW would actually believe that their MM doesn't have free will and choices (I hope). I think what some OW may be trying to convey is that their MM is conflicted by his choices, that he may 'feel' trapped in his marriage, that he feels that the set of choices he has all lead to consequences he finds painful and undesirable.

 

This is entirely different to the belief that MM as an adult is being involuntarily held hostage by his BS :-/ This is just as naive as believing that people make choices purely on the basis of what they 'want' in the literal sense of acting something you positively desire. Tough life decisions are just as likely to be driven by fear of consequences, wanting to do (and/or be seen to do) the morally right thing, ambition, responsibility, etc, etc.

 

I think OW (myself included) and BS both make the mistake of oversimplifying complex thoughts and contexts down to very binary views. Eg, He hasn't made the choice to be with me, therefore his wife must be keeping him hostage; or, he chose to R with me, therefore he actually wants me as a partner more than his xOW. The truth is very rarely that simple. Why do they do it? Basically because it makes them feel better and helps them get through.

 

One of the best posts I have ever read on this forum.

[Speakingofwhich]

Brilliant post, SolG!

[goodyblue]

There are marriages where the "BS" turns a blind eye.

 

 

I have heard of these mythical creatures but only have experienced them second or third hand myself.

 

Ha! I've experienced it first hand. It's no mythical creature.

[LearningToMoveOn]

I don't think it's that complicated. Saying you love your spouse are just words and the action of cheating says much more.

 

You say that a five year affair without any intention to leave your marriages was not cake eating. I disagree, it's the embodiment of cake eating.

 

It's interesting that your ex-MM made you know it he felt obligated toward his wife and not wanting his children to hate him and that's why he chose to reconcile with his wife. He's good, real good, leaves him looking altruistic.

 

Reading between the lines it seems to me that your affair fits in with the stereotypical mindset of a WS.

 

We can politely agree to disagree. I think it is extremely complicated but perhaps I didn't articulate my point very well. I think SoIG just provided an amazingly insightful post that might convey my thoughts better.

 

I say it wasn't cake eating because to me, cake eating implies that everything is sunshine and rainbows all of the time and you're both thrilled to be carrying on two lives and sneaking around and getting away with it. The reality of my situation was nothing of the sort. It was incredibly painful and we both struggled constantly with guilt and not knowing what we should do. We made no promises to each other about leaving our marriages but we certainly considered it and talked about it and what the consequences would be.

 

I don't really consider my x-MM to be altruistic. I think he is doing what he considers to be best for him and his family and I can't fault him for that. I can fault him for a lot of things but that isn't one of them.

 

You are welcome to read through the lines and think I have a "typical WS mindset", though that's just another one of those generalizations I was talking about. You would need to know far more about me and my life to make that judgement but you are welcome to your opinion.

[Furious]

We can politely agree to disagree. I think it is extremely complicated but perhaps I didn't articulate my point very well. I think SoIG just provided an amazingly insightful post that might convey my thoughts better.

 

I say it wasn't cake eating because to me, cake eating implies that everything is sunshine and rainbows all of the time and you're both thrilled to be carrying on two lives and sneaking around and getting away with it. The reality of my situation was nothing of the sort. It was incredibly painful and we both struggled constantly with guilt and not knowing what we should do. We made no promises to each other about leaving our marriages but we certainly considered it and talked about it and what the consequences would be.

 

I don't really consider my x-MM to be altruistic. I think he is doing what he considers to be best for him and his family and I can't fault him for that. I can fault him for a lot of things but that isn't one of them.

 

You are welcome to read through the lines and think I have a "typical WS mindset", though that's just another one of those generalizations I was talking about. You would need to know far more about me and my life to make that judgement but you are welcome to your opinion.

 

 

Also, stereotypical ..the marred affair partners making no promises to each other about leaving their spouses and a dash of guilt thrown in....

 

Also the, it's complicated....

 

Cake eating is feeling entitled to a spouse, family and an affair partner. Of course it's complicated to live a double life and cake eating can sometimes be stressful and appear complicated.

 

Have you had a d-day?

[Furious]

Let me offer you analogy. The artistic lawyer--Al for short--used to love law. He chose to study law because of is passion for the subject. After graduating, he joined a law firm and revelled in actually practicing. He was very successful and lived accordingly; he made partner, drove a prestige European car, lived in a beautiful comfortable house, and had a lovely family.

 

But eventually something wasn't quite right. His career started to become less exciting and ho hum <or substitute whatever works for you; eg, he started to hate work, constant disagreements with his boss made work uncomfortable, he resented work.... etc>. And Al began to remember how much he used to love art and painting way back before law became his life.

 

Al decides that, despite his firm's policy against partners undertaking other consuming employment or hobbies without endorsement, Al rents a studio and takes up painting. He spends increasingly more and more time at the studio. He feels young again, and invigorated; like he hasn't in years. He shows some of his work to a gallery and is told that he is incredibly talented and could have his own exhibition. At this point, so many things could happen. I invite you to choose your own ending for Al:

 

1. Due to his increasing neglect of his career, Al's boss tracks him down, finds out he is putting most of his efforts into his 'hobby' and threatens to fire him if doesn't quit and refocus on work. Al does one of the following:

 

1a. The confrontation with his boss is an epiphany for Al. When threatened with its loss, he realises how much he actually does appreciate and want to keep his career. Although he has some slight nostalgia for painting, he happily goes back to work and throws himself into reinvigorating his career.

 

1b. The confrontation with his boss really scares Al. He loves painting... but he also feels he needs the security that his career provides. The status and social standing, the comfort, money, car, house, etc. Al is really, really torn and finds it difficult to make a decision. At the end of the day Al quits painting and goes back to the career he finds dull and boring and has no passion for; purely because he cannot face the consequences of leaving. Although he will never pick up another paintbrush, he still loves painting and will forever.

 

1c. Al quits his job. He knows that painting is what he really wants to do with his life. He hopes in time that his boss will get over it and be less hurt and angry. He actually was kind fond of his boss and hopes they can be civil.

 

2. No body ever finds out and Al continues to both paint and practice law for the rest of his life. He finds that they are complementary and when practiced concurrently, make him feel quite contented with life. He resists the urgings from both his boss and art dealer to become more committed to their respective areas; hi lies outrageously to both of them to keep them off his back. He likes things the way there are and will work to keep them that way.

 

3. Al soon gets sick of painting; it was a flash in the pan passion. He moves on to sculpture... and then print making... etc, etc, etc. Al is convinced that his career will never satisfy him, but neither will just one other interest. He needs, and deserves, constant variety in his life. He continues to successfully practice law, and also satisfy his artistic bent with a string of extracurricular activities.

 

4. One day Al wakes us and decides he's had enough of painting. He's got it out of his system. He tells his boss what he's been doing, and goes back to law reinvigorated. Over time his boss forgives him and Al's career flourishes.

 

5. Over time, Al finds that he is becoming more and more attached to painting. He still goes to work, but work gets less and less attention... but he lives for his time in the studio. Al knows he can't go on like this; his boss is unimpressed with him, and the art dealer is pressing him to have an exhibition. Outcomes here similar to 1a - 1c, but without the confrontation.

 

This is by no means exhaustive - there are probably a gazillion permutations! Al has many CHOICES; he makes them himself for his own reasons. However, not every choice represents a want for Al; indeed, some choices may leave him feeling miserable and trapped. But by his own doing.

 

So it is with MM/WH. He will ultimately choose what he chooses; of his own volition. And in doing so he will also choose corresponding consequences for his actions. I don't think too many OW would actually believe that their MM doesn't have free will and choices (I hope). I think what some OW may be trying to convey is that their MM is conflicted by his choices, that he may 'feel' trapped in his marriage, that he feels that the set of choices he has all lead to consequences he finds painful and undesirable.

 

This is entirely different to the belief that MM as an adult is being involuntarily held hostage by his BS :-/ This is just as naive as believing that people make choices purely on the basis of what they 'want' in the literal sense of acting something you positively desire. Tough life decisions are just as likely to be driven by fear of consequences, wanting to do (and/or be seen to do) the morally right thing, ambition, responsibility, etc, etc.

 

I think OW (myself included) and BS both make the mistake of oversimplifying complex thoughts and contexts down to very binary views. Eg, He hasn't made the choice to be with me, therefore his wife must be keeping him hostage; or, he chose to R with me, therefore he actually wants me as a partner more than his xOW. The truth is very rarely that simple. Why do they do it? Basically because it makes them feel better and helps them get through.

 

 

Al...wants to paint, but his mean old boss discourages hobbies outside of the Law Firm.

 

Al...is conflicted he likes to paint but he also likes to make money.

 

Al....is just trying to be happy, why can't he paint, it's so complicated.

 

 

I think Al should grow a backbone. He should paint if that's what he really wants.

[LearningToMoveOn]

Also, stereotypical ..the marred affair partners making no promises to each other about leaving their spouses and a dash of guilt thrown in....

 

Also the, it's complicated....

 

Cake eating is feeling entitled to a spouse, family and an affair partner. Of course it's complicated to live a double life and cake eating can sometimes be stressful and appear complicated.

 

Have you had a d-day?

 

I appreciate your opinion but I'm not going to continue to debate with you. I didn't feel entitled to anything and know how selfish my actions were. If you feel these situations are always black and white and everything I'm saying is stereotypical, you are welcome to that opinion. I simply don't agree with it.

[SugarHibiscus]

Let me offer you analogy. The artistic lawyer--Al for short--used to love law. He chose to study law because of is passion for the subject. After graduating, he joined a law firm and revelled in actually practicing. He was very successful and lived accordingly; he made partner, drove a prestige European car, lived in a beautiful comfortable house, and had a lovely family.

 

But eventually something wasn't quite right. His career started to become less exciting and ho hum <or substitute whatever works for you; eg, he started to hate work, constant disagreements with his boss made work uncomfortable, he resented work.... etc>. And Al began to remember how much he used to love art and painting way back before law became his life.

 

Al decides that, despite his firm's policy against partners undertaking other consuming employment or hobbies without endorsement, Al rents a studio and takes up painting. He spends increasingly more and more time at the studio. He feels young again, and invigorated; like he hasn't in years. He shows some of his work to a gallery and is told that he is incredibly talented and could have his own exhibition. At this point, so many things could happen. I invite you to choose your own ending for Al:

 

1. Due to his increasing neglect of his career, Al's boss tracks him down, finds out he is putting most of his efforts into his 'hobby' and threatens to fire him if doesn't quit and refocus on work. Al does one of the following:

 

1a. The confrontation with his boss is an epiphany for Al. When threatened with its loss, he realises how much he actually does appreciate and want to keep his career. Although he has some slight nostalgia for painting, he happily goes back to work and throws himself into reinvigorating his career.

 

1b. The confrontation with his boss really scares Al. He loves painting... but he also feels he needs the security that his career provides. The status and social standing, the comfort, money, car, house, etc. Al is really, really torn and finds it difficult to make a decision. At the end of the day Al quits painting and goes back to the career he finds dull and boring and has no passion for; purely because he cannot face the consequences of leaving. Although he will never pick up another paintbrush, he still loves painting and will forever.

 

1c. Al quits his job. He knows that painting is what he really wants to do with his life. He hopes in time that his boss will get over it and be less hurt and angry. He actually was kind fond of his boss and hopes they can be civil.

 

2. No body ever finds out and Al continues to both paint and practice law for the rest of his life. He finds that they are complementary and when practiced concurrently, make him feel quite contented with life. He resists the urgings from both his boss and art dealer to become more committed to their respective areas; hi lies outrageously to both of them to keep them off his back. He likes things the way there are and will work to keep them that way.

 

3. Al soon gets sick of painting; it was a flash in the pan passion. He moves on to sculpture... and then print making... etc, etc, etc. Al is convinced that his career will never satisfy him, but neither will just one other interest. He needs, and deserves, constant variety in his life. He continues to successfully practice law, and also satisfy his artistic bent with a string of extracurricular activities.

 

4. One day Al wakes us and decides he's had enough of painting. He's got it out of his system. He tells his boss what he's been doing, and goes back to law reinvigorated. Over time his boss forgives him and Al's career flourishes.

 

5. Over time, Al finds that he is becoming more and more attached to painting. He still goes to work, but work gets less and less attention... but he lives for his time in the studio. Al knows he can't go on like this; his boss is unimpressed with him, and the art dealer is pressing him to have an exhibition. Outcomes here similar to 1a - 1c, but without the confrontation.

 

This is by no means exhaustive - there are probably a gazillion permutations! Al has many CHOICES; he makes them himself for his own reasons. However, not every choice represents a want for Al; indeed, some choices may leave him feeling miserable and trapped. But by his own doing.

 

So it is with MM/WH. He will ultimately choose what he chooses; of his own volition. And in doing so he will also choose corresponding consequences for his actions. I don't think too many OW would actually believe that their MM doesn't have free will and choices (I hope). I think what some OW may be trying to convey is that their MM is conflicted by his choices, that he may 'feel' trapped in his marriage, that he feels that the set of choices he has all lead to consequences he finds painful and undesirable.

 

This is entirely different to the belief that MM as an adult is being involuntarily held hostage by his BS :-/ This is just as naive as believing that people make choices purely on the basis of what they 'want' in the literal sense of acting something you positively desire. Tough life decisions are just as likely to be driven by fear of consequences, wanting to do (and/or be seen to do) the morally right thing, ambition, responsibility, etc, etc.

 

I think OW (myself included) and BS both make the mistake of oversimplifying complex thoughts and contexts down to very binary views. Eg, He hasn't made the choice to be with me, therefore his wife must be keeping him hostage; or, he chose to R with me, therefore he actually wants me as a partner more than his xOW. The truth is very rarely that simple. Why do they do it? Basically because it makes them feel better and helps them get through.

 

Terrific post! Thank you.

[atreides]

 

I think OW (myself included) and BS both make the mistake of oversimplifying complex thoughts and contexts down to very binary views. Eg, He hasn't made the choice to be with me, therefore his wife must be keeping him hostage; or, he chose to R with me, therefore he actually wants me as a partner more than his xOW. The truth is very rarely that simple. Why do they do it? Basically because it makes them feel better and helps them get through.

 

Just food for thought, not all the time but i would say a good amount is actually as simple as we make it out to be, and the misnomer of "black & white" is used to create vagueness in favor of creating the comfort/solace of possibility.

 

However, if it is safe to say so many think as to oversimplify as to the why.. "a human condition" if you will, so why then it is it one sided in that the MM did in fact make a simple decision? In other words, "the human condition" exists for reading the issue but not creating it as well? Seems to me the same process would be used.

That said, i like the analogy of binary, but binary is usually in groups like octets, so while it may be more than one set of binary, it does not change the simplicity of it all.

 

After all no matter how much complexity we wish to add, the thinking is based on the result for the OW/OM - MM/MW in that they are no longer with them. There is no fraction or piece that they have left, it is binary indeed.

 

Thus the pain felt and shared on LS comes with such finality when the relationship is ended.

Edited April 10, 2014 by atreides

[Hope Shimmers]

Just food for thought, not all the time but i would say a good amount is actually as simple as we make it out to be, and the misnomer of "black & white" is used to create vagueness in favor of creating the comfort/solace of possibility.

 

However, if it is safe to say so many think as to oversimplify as to the why.. "a human condition" if you will, so why then it is it one sided in that the MM did in fact make a simple decision? In other words, "the human condition" exists for reading the issue but not creating it as well? Seems to me the same process would be used.

That said, i like the analogy of binary, but binary is usually in groups like octets, so while it may be more than one set of binary, it does not change the simplicity of it all.

 

After all no matter how much complexity we wish to add, the thinking is based on the result for the OW/OM - MM/MW in that they are no longer with them. There is no fraction or piece that they have left, it is binary indeed.

 

Thus the pain felt and shared on LS comes with such finality when the relationship is ended.

 

Ah, we have ourselves a data coder/programmer here.

 

I don't disagree with you. No matter how many groups of binary exist, the result must - by definition - be one choice or another. The part I feel you are missing is this:

 

"Al has many CHOICES; he makes them himself for his own reasons. However, not every choice represents a want for Al; indeed, some choices may leave him feeling miserable and trapped. But by his own doing."

 

So it's not that the result/decision is complicated to arrive at, necessarily, but the consequences/subsequent impact on Al (and on others) and the rationale behind the decision may be very complex.

[Arieswoman]

SolG,

Your post #81 was neat, but I'd like to point out another scenario, which, IMO is more common.

 

Al's boss finds out about his secret studio and tells him to pack it up or he'll be fired from the law firm. Al says he isn't going to stop painting, because he loves it, but does nothing and carries on at the law firm as if nothing was wrong.

Al's boss gets fed up with his indecision, fires Al and tells him to clear out his desk.

Al refuses, so the boss gets security involved and throws Al's items out onto the street and takes the office keys off him.

Al has nowhere else to go so he shuffles around to his studio, telling everyone on the way who will listen what a POS his boss is. He carries on painting and wondering why life is so unfair.

 

The End.

[gettingstronger]

Does ALS wife know he paints? Did he vow not to paint?

[Arieswoman]

Getting stronger,

 

Does ALS wife know he paints? Did he vow not to paint?

I think he used to paint before he went to law school but gave it up to study because painting was too time-consuming and the prospects were poor. One day a fine arts studio set up on the block next to Al's office. He resisted the urge to go in for a long time. One day he couldn't stand it any longer and went inside and looked at the paintings. It made him feel good.

The next day he looked at paintbrushes and wondered what it would be like to hold one again. The next day he picked up a brush, took the top of a tube of oilpaint and inhaled that beautiful smell of turps .......

 

I think we can all see where this is going.

 

Yes, he did have a contract with his boss at the law firm not to engage in other business activities that might impact negatively on the firm. However, Al persuaded himself that what he was doing was unconnected with the law firm and was just a "hobby" ...at first......

 

The moral of this story is - you can have anything you want in life but you can't have everything you want.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Arieswoman

[FoolishOW]

Affairs grow on a foundation of lies and betrayal, how can they be real? I can understand how single women can become emotionally vested with MM. What she has to understand is she is dealing with a liar and cheater. Yet they hang on to every word, and believe him whole heartedly.

 

I have tons of friends that has or is cheating, in most cases we will sit around and joke about the things they say to the OW to prolong the affair. I have one friend who went as far as having divorce papers drawn to show is AP, yet had no intention on divorcing his wife.

 

Point being, while the OW is truely in the "RELATIONSHIP" 9 of 10 times the WH is into the sex or in some cases the companionship but not the relationship. They simply aren't emotionally vested dispite what he tell the OW.

 

 

If, indeed, you have chosen to be friends with tons of people like this; and if, indeed, you find exploiting other people in this way to actually be humorous, it would not surprise me to find that you have no idea how telling your admission is, or the way in which it speaks volumes about your own 'less than stellar' character.

 

 

Affairs develop from a myriad of various circumstances and typically do not begin on day one from the vantage point of "Let's see what ridiculously stupid relationship I can bury myself in today", despite what your entourage from the caveman era might suggest.

[Speakingofwhich]

Surprising everyone, except himself, Al became a brilliant and famous artist and lived happily ever after painting daily to his heart's content and to the delight of all who marveled at his life's work!

 

He and his former boss mended their friendship and his former boss found someone who loved practicing law and couldn't draw a stick man to fill the position Al left at the firm.

 

In the meantime Al painted portraits of the founder of the law firm and of the other partners. The paintings now hang in the marble foyer of the law firm to the delight of all who enter and serve as a silent but eloquent reminder to those who view them to follow your heart and not your pocketbook!

 

And so it goes that many of the town's people benefited from the ripple effect of Al's seemingly foolish decision to paint instead of to continue practicing law.

 

Thus, everyone else lived happily ever after, too!

[DKT3]

If, indeed, you have chosen to be friends with tons of people like this; and if, indeed, you find exploiting other people in this way to actually be humorous, it would not surprise me to find that you have no idea how telling your admission is, or the way in which it speaks volumes about your own 'less than stellar' character.

 

 

Affairs develop from a myriad of various circumstances and typically do not begin on day one from the vantage point of "Let's see what ridiculously stupid relationship I can bury myself in today", despite what your entourage from the caveman era might suggest.

 

Exploiting women that openly and willingly enter a sexual relationship with a married man?

 

Affair develop because step by step limits are pushed all the while knowing its wrong, but convining themselves its not so bad. No one falls for anyone to the point of ruining marriages and families instantly. Its a choice, all this it just happened or I wasn't looking for it is in my opinion a joke and minimizing.

 

So what your saying is cheating is ok, but joking about it isn't?

 

I simply don't understand how one could hold a person who lies to and cheats on a spouse in such high light? If they are willing to cheat on the spouse why would it be exploiting to joke about the OW. The BS did nothing to deserve what they got, OM/W? can we honestly say the same?

[FoolishOW]

Exploiting women that openly and willingly enter a sexual relationship with a married man? You referred to these "married men" as your friends.

Affair develop because step by step limits are pushed all the while knowing its wrong, but convining themselves its not so bad. No one falls for anyone to the point of ruining marriages and families instantly. Its a choice, all this it just happened or I wasn't looking for it is in my opinion a joke and minimizing.

 

So what your saying is cheating is ok, but joking about it isn't? Cheating is never "OK", which is part of my point. You seem to enjoy the amusement of joking about these "cheating woman", while ignoring the fact that they're cheating w with "your friends". How do you joke about one set of cheaters while populating your friend pool with "tons" of other cheaters?

I simply don't understand how one could hold a person who lies to and cheats on a spouse in such high light? If they are willing to cheat on the spouse why would it be exploiting to joke about the OW. The BS did nothing to deserve what they got, OM/W? can we honestly say the same?

 

 

If you don't understand the irony, no sweat... no reason to pursue it further.

[fellini]

Not sure I need an analogy of a AL when speaking directly about an infidelity would be more revealing, but okay.

 

CHOICE: A person who has moved from a committed relationship to an A (EA/PA) has been making choices a along the line. This is not about A choice.

I think that this is important to remember.

 

Then people talk about A CHOICE to enter into the affair. or THE choice to make it PA. Now while it's true, a moment occurs in which our WS has to actually remove some clothing, I don't see that this was the moment "of choice to enter into a PA" at all. There were hundreds of little choices along the way.

 

Now we have D-Day. Again, hundreds of little choices (what to say, what not to say, denial, open confession, which details, run? hide? burst into tears?, all three? blame the BS, blame the job, blame the sex, blame the kids, blame the depression, blame the boss who came onto you... lots of decisions.

 

The decision to stay? pfff. Many a WS has made "the decision" to stay which was nothing more than again, a tiny decision to keep the issue rolling, keep the game going, reel back in the BS, take care of the AP later, all of these and more, available choices and some made some held for later, some never made.

 

Yeah, maybe a WS "decided to stay" but was really deciding not to have the world find out about the A, and later, after some work, ACTUALLY found him/herself actually experiencing a deep feeling and desire to stay. The choice to stay? I don't think we can pinpoint many "real life decision" choices in this complex push and pull, give and take, destroy and repair, bent or broken world of infidelity.

 

How often do we hear of a BS who "chooses to forgive", moves on, and then 2 years later chooses again to end the M. Or a BS who chooses to D, and years later regrets/recants or wishes s/he had chosen differently. More choices still being made along the relationship years later.

 

Let me offer you analogy. The artistic lawyer--Al for short--used to love law. He chose to study law because of is passion for the subject. After graduating, he joined a law firm and revelled in actually practicing. He was very successful and lived accordingly; he made partner, drove a prestige European car, lived in a beautiful comfortable house, and had a lovely family.

 

But eventually something wasn't quite right. His career started to become less exciting and ho hum <or substitute whatever works for you; eg, he started to hate work, constant disagreements with his boss made work uncomfortable, he resented work.... etc>. And Al began to remember how much he used to love art and painting way back before law became his life.

 

Al decides that, despite his firm's policy against partners undertaking other consuming employment or hobbies without endorsement, Al rents a studio and takes up painting. He spends increasingly more and more time at the studio. He feels young again, and invigorated; like he hasn't in years. He shows some of his work to a gallery and is told that he is incredibly talented and could have his own exhibition. At this point, so many things could happen. I invite you to choose your own ending for Al:

 

1. Due to his increasing neglect of his career, Al's boss tracks him down, finds out he is putting most of his efforts into his 'hobby' and threatens to fire him if doesn't quit and refocus on work. Al does one of the following:

 

1a. The confrontation with his boss is an epiphany for Al. When threatened with its loss, he realises how much he actually does appreciate and want to keep his career. Although he has some slight nostalgia for painting, he happily goes back to work and throws himself into reinvigorating his career.

 

1b. The confrontation with his boss really scares Al. He loves painting... but he also feels he needs the security that his career provides. The status and social standing, the comfort, money, car, house, etc. Al is really, really torn and finds it difficult to make a decision. At the end of the day Al quits painting and goes back to the career he finds dull and boring and has no passion for; purely because he cannot face the consequences of leaving. Although he will never pick up another paintbrush, he still loves painting and will forever.

 

1c. Al quits his job. He knows that painting is what he really wants to do with his life. He hopes in time that his boss will get over it and be less hurt and angry. He actually was kind fond of his boss and hopes they can be civil.

 

2. No body ever finds out and Al continues to both paint and practice law for the rest of his life. He finds that they are complementary and when practiced concurrently, make him feel quite contented with life. He resists the urgings from both his boss and art dealer to become more committed to their respective areas; hi lies outrageously to both of them to keep them off his back. He likes things the way there are and will work to keep them that way.

 

3. Al soon gets sick of painting; it was a flash in the pan passion. He moves on to sculpture... and then print making... etc, etc, etc. Al is convinced that his career will never satisfy him, but neither will just one other interest. He needs, and deserves, constant variety in his life. He continues to successfully practice law, and also satisfy his artistic bent with a string of extracurricular activities.

 

4. One day Al wakes us and decides he's had enough of painting. He's got it out of his system. He tells his boss what he's been doing, and goes back to law reinvigorated. Over time his boss forgives him and Al's career flourishes.

 

5. Over time, Al finds that he is becoming more and more attached to painting. He still goes to work, but work gets less and less attention... but he lives for his time in the studio. Al knows he can't go on like this; his boss is unimpressed with him, and the art dealer is pressing him to have an exhibition. Outcomes here similar to 1a - 1c, but without the confrontation.

 

This is by no means exhaustive - there are probably a gazillion permutations! Al has many CHOICES; he makes them himself for his own reasons. However, not every choice represents a want for Al; indeed, some choices may leave him feeling miserable and trapped. But by his own doing.

 

So it is with MM/WH. He will ultimately choose what he chooses; of his own volition. And in doing so he will also choose corresponding consequences for his actions. I don't think too many OW would actually believe that their MM doesn't have free will and choices (I hope). I think what some OW may be trying to convey is that their MM is conflicted by his choices, that he may 'feel' trapped in his marriage, that he feels that the set of choices he has all lead to consequences he finds painful and undesirable.

 

This is entirely different to the belief that MM as an adult is being involuntarily held hostage by his BS :-/ This is just as naive as believing that people make choices purely on the basis of what they 'want' in the literal sense of acting something you positively desire. Tough life decisions are just as likely to be driven by fear of consequences, wanting to do (and/or be seen to do) the morally right thing, ambition, responsibility, etc, etc.

 

I think OW (myself included) and BS both make the mistake of oversimplifying complex thoughts and contexts down to very binary views. Eg, He hasn't made the choice to be with me, therefore his wife must be keeping him hostage; or, he chose to R with me, therefore he actually wants me as a partner more than his xOW. The truth is very rarely that simple. Why do they do it? Basically because it makes them feel better and helps them get through.

[Journee]

Surprising everyone, except himself, Al became a brilliant and famous artist and lived happily ever after painting daily to his heart's content and to the delight of all who marveled at his life's work!

 

He and his former boss mended their friendship and his former boss found someone who loved practicing law and couldn't draw a stick man to fill the position Al left at the firm.

 

In the meantime Al painted portraits of the founder of the law firm and of the other partners. The paintings now hang in the marble foyer of the law firm to the delight of all who enter and serve as a silent but eloquent reminder to those who view them to follow your heart and not your pocketbook!

 

And so it goes that many of the town's people benefited from the ripple effect of Al's seemingly foolish decision to paint instead of to continue practicing law.

 

Thus, everyone else lived happily ever after, too!

 

 

I love this.

 

The answer isn't always to hang one's head. It's to forge on. To live a new and sometimes complicated life. Treading water in either direction isn't what some will choose and that's okay.

[Hope Shimmers]

Al...wants to paint, but his mean old boss discourages hobbies outside of the Law Firm.

 

Al...is conflicted he likes to paint but he also likes to make money.

 

Al....is just trying to be happy, why can't he paint, it's so complicated.

I think Al should grow a backbone. He should paint if that's what he really wants.

 

The top three are not outcomes. They are processes that one (in this case, Al) goes through to reach the outcome.

 

The last one (bolded) is the opinion of a third party (you) as to what decision Al should make, which (hopefully) has no impact on what he decides to do - since no one is influencing him, holding him hostage, etc.