"I will never be involved in an affair"

[Hope Shimmers]

Well, I know that this isn't a part of your original point, but it's your thread so I'll answer. I am able to look at individual cases of course, but if you started dating openly, he was separated and his spouse knew about it, plus they were waiting on divorce papers. While the law in certain states may call that an affair, I sure don't. It was open and you two weren't sneaking around? So what was the problem? Did he lie and get back together with his wife or something? If so then I would consider you wronged by him, just as much as his wife in that case.

 

BHsigh,

 

I guess "bridge the gap" was the wrong phrase to use. I was just trying to make the point that maybe we don't always understand why people behave in certain ways until we can experience it ourselves. By that I was hoping to 'bridge the gap' that seems to exist between BSs and OW/OM. Not every situation is cut-and-dried as some make it out to be.

 

At some point my situation had to have become an affair, because at some point - although it took him years to actually DO it - he decided to go back to his wife. Certainly he decided this before he stopped stringing me along, and a part of me (increasingly bigger parts as time went on) realized that, but I was too sucked in to leave the situation. Too much "in love" and had my self-esteem ground to bits because of the entire process. Had I been a stronger/better person, I never would have allowed myself to be destroyed.

[Hope Shimmers]

They go on to be AP for the exact same reasons that anyone else does, why does any gap have to be bridged to explain it?

 

I guess because they have been through the pain so I would think they would know better than anyone not to inflict it on someone else.

 

I would never repeat my experience. But maybe they said that too? Really, I'm just trying to make sure I understand myself and my decisions completely so that I can make the best decisions moving forward.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Hurt people hurt people.

 

It isn't until we process our experiences do we learn from them.

 

It is those folks that go through the pain, not under or around that can then incorporate the lessons that they learned and become more self aware.

 

Others, are quite content to spend their whole lives reliving past experiences expecting others to change....when the only constant in the dysfunctional relationships are them.

 

HopeShimmers, it is apparent that you are someone who questions...not only others but yourself.

 

In my personal life, the most interesting, joyful people I have met are those that have faced great personal downfall or tragedy that emerged as open individuals who have such love of life and are more than willing to share their life lessons with others. There is a peacefulness...or a knowingness about them. There are many individuals on these forums like that with various alphabet soup acronyms.

 

Something that I learned from another which I try to be mindful of is...we all get to choose how we enter someone's life....either as a source of light or darkness...we get to decide.

[Hope Shimmers]

Hurt people hurt people.

 

It isn't until we process our experiences do we learn from them.

 

It is those folks that go through the pain, not under or around that can then incorporate the lessons that they learned and become more self aware.

 

Others, are quite content to spend their whole lives reliving past experiences expecting others to change....when the only constant in the dysfunctional relationships are them.

 

HopeShimmers, it is apparent that you are someone who questions...not only others but yourself.

 

In my personal life, the most interesting, joyful people I have met are those that have faced great personal downfall or tragedy that emerged as open individuals who have such love of life and are more than willing to share their life lessons with others. There is a peacefulness...or a knowingness about them. There are many individuals on these forums like that with various alphabet soup acronyms.

 

Something that I learned from another which I try to be mindful of is...we all get to choose how we enter someone's life....either as a source of light or darkness...we get to decide.

 

You are very wise, AG. Thank you.

[Charlie Harper]

I had hundred of chances for cheating while married for 19 years and 8 months. And before getting married I used to multi date, multi everything....but I was one on those who said "Ill never cheat"

7 years of therapy, a major and PHD in Psychology and numerous courses on marriage counseling and such, made me think I was inmune to cheating...

 

Then 8 or 9 factors aligned and the once in a million thing occurred... and then I was in an Affair...I don't regret it one bit, it opened my eyes in lots of ways and took me out of a Holier than thou attitude....

 

Now I am not so quick to judge or to think on absolutes..

 

and yes I think it was wrong but what came out of it was good in the long run...

[Hope Shimmers]

I had hundred of chances for cheating while married for 19 years and 8 months. And before getting married I used to multi date, multi everything....but I was one on those who said "Ill never cheat"

7 years of therapy, a major and PHD in Psychology and numerous courses on marriage counseling and such, made me think I was inmune to cheating...

 

Then 8 or 9 factors aligned and the once in a million thing occurred... and then I was in an Affair...I don't regret it one bit, it opened my eyes in lots of ways and took me out of a Holier than thou attitude....

 

Now I am not so quick to judge or to think on absolutes..

 

and yes I think it was wrong but what came out of it was good in the long run...

 

I agree Charlie Harper. This was the point I was trying to make in my original post. Not to make excuses for it, but the "8 or 9 factors aligned and the once in a million thing occurred...".

 

I'm not sorry either. As they say, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Although I wish it had not taken so much pain and so many years to get stronger. But hey... it feels SO good to not have that pain any longer!

 

At this point I know that I want to live a life of honesty and with my self-esteem and confidence intact. A life of authenticity, as I have read in other posts. I know now that I don't need a man to do that, and I'll be just fine without one. And, I know I need to have that for myself before I can give anything to another man.

[KaliLove]

I said that too. I would never, ever cheat. It's just not me. And what about the BS's that do it after saying they would never do it having known how painful it is? How are they different, is my question. I know you say you would 'never, ever' do something but others have said the same, even after experiencing the ultimate pain of it, and then did it. So what does that mean?

 

Maybe some people are just weaker than others.

[janedoe67]

Maybe some people are just weaker than others.

 

This is what I used to think as well. Now I have learned the truth of these:

 

Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Prov. 16:18

 

So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! I Cor. 10:12

[Shepp]

I will never be involved in an affair - FACT!!!

 

I wouldn't if I wanted too, becaue it would make me EVERYTHING that I'm not, because it is putting a knife in someone's back cause your too cowedly to man up and do what you've got to do to there face!

There no justification. Ever.

If if you were the innocent party before, your not anymore, it's a CHOICE not a mistake!

 

And that said I Have never ever ever heard of a is he reason that would make me want to cheat!!!? I have no desire, at all whatsoever! You could lock me in a lift with Cheryl cole, under the concrete knowledge that no one would ever ever find out and I still wouldn't do it not because it just would make me sick, or becuase id feel guilty about my girlfirend, or becuase I couldnt l ok my family in the eye, or because how could I ever teach my sons how to behave - but becuase I'm fairly find of the guy in the mirror and I set standards for him, i wouldnt be able to meet his eyes anymore!!!

 

Its not hard to not scratch all the paint off your new fararri when you don't want too and it's not hard to not cheat when your have no desire of doing so!! I d obt want to be that man and more than That I have 0 desire for the act it's self!

 

 

I will never be involved in an affair. Absolute. Black and white.

[salparadise]

It's important to me because I think many people see affairs as completely black and white and I see posts all the time that talk about how people involved in affairs are liars and horrible people.

 

Insightful. When people see things as black and white, they are choosing to ignore the complexities and nuance of situations that are anything but. The intersection of family, relationship, morality, sexuality and individual psychology is one of the most complex and least understood areas of human knowledge. I don't get why people insist on reducing it to the simplest conceptual model, good vs. evil, rather than trying to understand. They choose to conceptualize in such a way as to not have to think about it and experience the emotions associated realistic understanding of the human condition. Many B&W thinkers are betrayed spouses who resort to rigid constructs and project the label of "evil" onto anyone/thing that symbolizes the perceived source of their pain.

[Shepp]

OTH, if you accept that anyone - even you - can be tempted, you are more likely to remove yourself from situations where you might cheat.

 

I say i cant. You don't need to distance yourself from situations when your not tempted!!

[AlwaysGrowing]

Insightful. When people see things as black and white, they are choosing to ignore the complexities and nuance of situations that are anything but. The intersection of family, relationship, morality, sexuality and individual psychology is one of the most complex and least understood areas of human knowledge. I don't get why people insist on reducing it to the simplest conceptual model, good vs. evil, rather than trying to understand. They choose to conceptualize in such a way as to not have to think about it and experience the emotions associated realistic understanding of the human condition. Many B&W thinkers are betrayed spouses who resort to rigid constructs and project the label of "evil" onto anyone/thing that symbolizes the perceived source of their pain.

 

Certain issues are simply B&W issues. Hence why we have laws that carry various degrees of punishment based on what most view as a sliding scale of what was more morally wrong. From a fine for speeding to prison for harming another.

 

The first thing that jumped in my head with the part about intersection of family,relationship,morality,sexuality and individual psychology is....would you view a parent sexual abuser as "evil" or not. Is the child on the receiving end only "perceiving" the pain? Is that child using rigid constructs and projecting?

 

I find that those that live in the "grey" in all matters in life, tend to find excuses for own poor behaviour, who then turn around and put "many" others into the same very rigid constructs that they themselves say do not apply to them.

[Raena]

And another thing - in my case I didn't think the 'WS' was single, but I knew he was separated and living on his own and going through the process of divorce. I DATED him. So I learned that it is an affair to date someone before the divorce papers come through. That does NOT mean I think I am in the same shoes as the BS - not even close. Because at some point I should have realized that I was being lied to, but I just didn't. Yet she knew he was dating when we first started seeing each other. When it all blew up was when he told her (voluntarily) that he was in love with me. I suppose that was when the A technically started. And no, I didn't leave... I had invested years at that point, I loved him, and I chose to believe him.

 

HS... I've been in your shoes and quite honestly, I don't relate to being an OW in that situation. There is a vast difference in dating a married man who still lives with his wife, has to sneak around to be with you, and all the other lies that go along with a secret relationship. If he was separated, living on his own and dating you then I don't personally see you as the OW. Where was the secrecy? Why he didn't bother to divorce his wife in that time period is a concern, and it was a concern for me too. But that's a whole different story. I'm not saying its right, you should have walked away when you realized he wasn't actually filing for divorce, same as I should have. But I know from personal experience how hard it is to do that when you love the person. I just don't see it as the same as the OW who knowingly sneaks around with a man who is still living with his wife.

 

Anyhow... I think I see what you are trying to get at... we are all complicated people who make choices that are sometimes good for us and sometimes not so good for us. Who knows why a BS would then choose to go on and be involved as an OW in an affair afterwards. I imagine there are multiple reasons for it. There isn't any one answer for it. I'm not sure there is a way to "bridge the gap" between the OW and the BS or any one logical reason for why someone who has been hurt badly by an affair would then go ahead and participate in one themselves. For some it comes down to attraction and vulnerability. I know that having been betrayed myself what it did to my esteem and my desire for validation from others. It's complicated. I'm not saying I would go ahead and get involved in an affair with some married man... but my personal experience tells me that is can happen if I'm not vigilant and set boundaries for what's acceptable and what isn't. Being hurt like this does something to a person. It changes their world view and how they respond to future situations. I know it has surely changed mine.

 

Falling in love and finding that one right person for each of us shouldn't be so complicated and messy but it is, especially when there are people who lie to get what they want.

[gettingstronger]

You are confusing betrayal and forgiveness. A selfish act with a selfless act. I will not betray my husband by cheating on him, but I am working on forgiving him through reconciliation. The fact that you don't see the difference between the two is just sad.

[Hope Shimmers]

Certain issues are simply B&W issues. Hence why we have laws that carry various degrees of punishment based on what most view as a sliding scale of what was more morally wrong. From a fine for speeding to prison for harming another.

 

The first thing that jumped in my head with the part about intersection of family,relationship,morality,sexuality and individual psychology is....would you view a parent sexual abuser as "evil" or not. Is the child on the receiving end only "perceiving" the pain? Is that child using rigid constructs and projecting?

 

I find that those that live in the "grey" in all matters in life, tend to find excuses for own poor behaviour, who then turn around and put "many" others into the same very rigid constructs that they themselves say do not apply to them.

 

So you are comparing someone who has an affair to a child molester.

 

If you want to talk about black and white, a child molester is about as close as it gets to evil. These are people who have something inherently wrong within them such that they continuously crave sex with children. They have a constant struggle to do the 'right' thing and if allowed they will have multiple encounters of sex with children.

 

I don't believe someone who has an A is inherently screwed up inside.... nor do I believe that they normally spend their entire lives struggling not to have affairs. Not the same thing at all in my honest opinion.

 

Discussing gray areas in life doesn't have to be about 'excusing' behavior... to me it is about explaining why some people, at some time(s) in their lives, make bad choices. Because if you are truly evil, as in the child molester, there is no excusing it. It is not a choice; it's who they are. Not the case at all for someone who has an A.

 

Just my opinion.

[Hope Shimmers]

You are confusing betrayal and forgiveness. A selfish act with a selfless act. I will not betray my husband by cheating on him, but I am working on forgiving him through reconciliation. The fact that you don't see the difference between the two is just sad.

 

I am not confusing betrayal and forgiveness.

 

What you are saying in your post, though, is that you (or the BS) is completely selfless in behavior and you would never cheat on your H. And your H (or the WS) is completely selfish which if we translate this to black and white, he is a bad person.

 

IF he is truly a terrible person, then I would personally use another adjective (other than 'selfless') for the act of forgiving him and staying in the relationship. But if he is, in fact, NOT a terrible person, then there must be shades of gray involved, in order to forgive his behavior.

 

I'm not trying to start a debate with this thread or any such thing... I merely wanted people to think about how there may be many reasons why people make poor choices, other than the fact that they are 'bad' people.

[AlwaysGrowing]

So you are comparing someone who has an affair to a child molester.

 

If you want to talk about black and white, a child molester is about as close as it gets to evil. These are people who have something inherently wrong within them such that they continuously crave sex with children. They have a constant struggle to do the 'right' thing and if allowed they will have multiple encounters of sex with children.

 

I don't believe someone who has an A is inherently screwed up inside.... nor do I believe that they normally spend their entire lives struggling not to have affairs. Not the same thing at all in my honest opinion.

 

Discussing gray areas in life doesn't have to be about 'excusing' behavior... to me it is about explaining why some people, at some time(s) in their lives, make bad choices. Because if you are truly evil, as in the child molester, there is no excusing it. It is not a choice; it's who they are. Not the case at all for someone who has an A.

 

Just my opinion.

 

The OP that I was responding to clearly stated that all things/relationships are grey....and I was challenging that belief. I never compared infidelity to CSA.

 

If one is truly a "grey thinker" than why the narrow view of a BS that feels pain? Not to mention that lovely "perceived" source of their pain. That is just as much B&W thinking as what BS were being accused of in the post.

[Raena]

So you are comparing someone who has an affair to a child molester.

 

If you want to talk about black and white, a child molester is about as close as it gets to evil. These are people who have something inherently wrong within them such that they continuously crave sex with children. They have a constant struggle to do the 'right' thing and if allowed they will have multiple encounters of sex with children.

 

I don't believe someone who has an A is inherently screwed up inside.... nor do I believe that they normally spend their entire lives struggling not to have affairs. Not the same thing at all in my honest opinion.

 

Discussing gray areas in life doesn't have to be about 'excusing' behavior... to me it is about explaining why some people, at some time(s) in their lives, make bad choices. Because if you are truly evil, as in the child molester, there is no excusing it. It is not a choice; it's who they are. Not the case at all for someone who has an A.

 

Just my opinion.

 

I'd have to disagree with you that someone who has an affair isn't inherently screwed up. I do agree that it's not on the same caliber as a child molester... the two are apple to oranges... BUT someone who chooses to have affair isn't exactly what one would consider to be a normal healthy person who makes good choices. There is something wrong with a person who chooses to cheat rather than walk away from the relationship first or you know, try to fix whatever the problem is. Of course, I'm tainted by my own situation so that does color my perspective. My ex is a serial cheater who most definitely has something WRONG with him... he's screwed up...he's a pathological liar and there is really no good reason for it.

[Hope Shimmers]

I'd have to disagree with you that someone who has an affair isn't inherently screwed up. I do agree that it's not on the same caliber as a child molester... the two are apple to oranges... BUT someone who chooses to have affair isn't exactly what one would consider to be a normal healthy person who makes good choices. There is something wrong with a person who chooses to cheat rather than walk away from the relationship first or you know, try to fix whatever the problem is. Of course, I'm tainted by my own situation so that does color my perspective. My ex is a serial cheater who most definitely has something WRONG with him... he's screwed up...he's a pathological liar and there is really no good reason for it.

 

Your H is definitely screwed up and I should have put the condition 'except for pathological liars and cheaters'. I am not screwed up and I don't believe most people who have an affair have something inherently wrong with them that makes them bad people. We can agree to disagree.

 

The OP that I was responding to clearly stated that all things/relationships are grey....and I was challenging that belief. I never compared infidelity to CSA.

 

If one is truly a "grey thinker" than why the narrow view of a BS that feels pain? Not to mention that lovely "perceived" source of their pain. That is just as much B&W thinking as what BS were being accused of in the post.

 

When I read your post you used the example of a child molester to illustrate your point about people who have affairs, so I apologize if I mistook it that you were comparing them.

 

I don't have a narrow view of a BS at all. I don't have the first idea what most of them have gone through and I would never state that whatever I might think about it has any relevance because of that. I was a BS but not like most here are.

Edited April 28, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Merge

[Charlie Harper]

I will never be involved in an affair - FACT!!!

 

Never say never, I was exactly like that, and life give us a lot of examples of people who are black and white and then are caught doing exactly what they said they would never do.

 

I wouldn't if I wanted too, becaue it would make me EVERYTHING that I'm not, because it is putting a knife in someone's back cause your too cowedly to man up and do what you've got to do to there face!

There no justification. Ever.

If if you were the innocent party before, your not anymore, it's a CHOICE not a mistake!

 

And that said I Have never ever ever heard of a is he reason that would make me want to cheat!!!? I have no desire, at all whatsoever! You could lock me in a lift with Cheryl cole, under the concrete knowledge that no one would ever ever find out and I still wouldn't do it not because it just would make me sick, or becuase id feel guilty about my girlfirend, or becuase I couldnt l ok my family in the eye, or because how could I ever teach my sons how to behave - but becuase I'm fairly find of the guy in the mirror and I set standards for him, i wouldnt be able to meet his eyes anymore!!!

 

 

I will never be involved in an affair. Absolute. Black and white.

 

Having an affair its not getting involved with someone because he is super handsome or she is Beautiful, a real affair involves a lot of stuff not related to sex, sometimes not even related to attraction on the physical level, but on the emotional level, my advice is if you don't want your husband wife to cheat, do not become disconnected form him emotionally...

 

Insightful. When people see things as black and white, they are choosing to ignore the complexities and nuance of situations that are anything but. The intersection of family, relationship, morality, sexuality and individual psychology is one of the most complex and least understood areas of human knowledge. I don't get why people insist on reducing it to the simplest conceptual model, good vs. evil, rather than trying to understand. They choose to conceptualize in such a way as to not have to think about it and experience the emotions associated realistic understanding of the human condition. Many B&W thinkers are betrayed spouses who resort to rigid constructs and project the label of "evil" onto anyone/thing that symbolizes the perceived source of their pain.

 

As my practice can attest a lot of people don have the slightest idea they have been cheated, and they are B &W about cheating, so when they find out their reaction is B & W also... So true great post Salparadise

 

 

I find that those that live in the "grey" in all matters in life, tend to find excuses for own poor behaviour, who then turn around and put "many" others into the same very rigid constructs that they themselves say do not apply to them.

 

I am sure a lot of people ME INCLUDED have made a lot of gray decisions in life, and moved on, those mistakes make life worth living, for GOOD or BAD, you learn from your mistakes and most of them are done while in that grey area...

 

A lot of people here in LS are really hurt and lie to crucify without any kind of knowledge of the intricacies of human interaction, call it justification, or cheating or being a liar etc..... the bottom line is some people make mistakes because its the only way available.... but those who haven't been there will never understand...

Edited April 28, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Response to deleted post redacted

[janedoe67]

I'd like to clarify one statement. The LOGICAL way to say this is:

 

I person who cheats is screwed up in the head while they are cheating.

 

They were NOT necessarily screwed up before they cheated, and they are not screwed up after they stop cheating and work on themselves.

 

There. I feel better now.

[HermioneG]

I'd like to clarify one statement. The LOGICAL way to say this is:

 

I person who cheats is screwed up in the head while they are cheating.

 

They were NOT necessarily screwed up before they cheated, and they are not screwed up after they stop cheating and work on themselves.

 

There. I feel better now.

 

I would agree that they are not necessarily screwed up after, if they seek help and make changes.

 

I would absolutely agree they are screwed up during.

 

And I would gently suggest that they are dysfunctional/poor coping skills in some manner prior to the affair, hence the ability to have the affair in the first place.

[blueskyday]

People in affairs THINK "there is no other way." It's a cognitive problem. Of course there is another way.

 

I think the opposite: "there is always another way other than affair." So I behave differently. Our thoughts drive our feelings, and ultimately our behavior.

 

And yes, someone having an affair is messed up cognitively while having an affair. They are not seeing things in a productive way. They are rationalizing bad ego (selfish) behavior. It may not be pathological like a a serial cheater who has a personality disorder, and could be changed.

 

Some who is a child molester could (in a way) be excused from their disgusting behavior. They are "sick " and engage in wrong and sick behavior. They are pathological. Not curable.

 

Of course, I'm not comparing that with having an affair. I'm saying that understanding the reason behind doesn't excuse the bad behavior. Logic dictates we understand excuses and reasons may explain bad behavior, whatever it is, without touching the ethics and judgement of such behavior.

 

People who have affairs can be good people who have made poor coping choices. Or they could be people with mental illness. There is a difference between the two.

 

Some of us don't engage in thinking an affair is a viable choice , so we won't chose it. It really is that simple.

[janedoe67]

I would agree that they are not necessarily screwed up after, if they seek help and make changes.

 

I would absolutely agree they are screwed up during.

 

And I would gently suggest that they are dysfunctional/poor coping skills in some manner prior to the affair, hence the ability to have the affair in the first place.

 

I can see this as well. For 30+ years I lived with integrity, and then when things that should not have been the way they were stayed that way, instead of making the hard choice to draw a line in the sand and leave if necessary, I chose what was weak and cowardly. When I was 30, I was unhappy but still strong. When I was 32, I was unhappy but still strong. By the time I was around 35, I was unhappy and TIRED. THAT should have let me know that it was time to get out. But instead I stayed and got even MORE resentful and unhappy. And I allowed myself to choose what was absolutely wrong and something I never ever in my entire growing up and adult life thought I would have to worry about doing.

 

In fact, even as I knew how vulnerable my feelings were, I told myself, "It's fine to enjoy these compliments. After all, I'm a good Christian who knows the Bible and was a virgin when I married I'D never cheat!"

 

Two of my flaws were not listening to the signals that I was vulnerable and wide open, and assuming that I was way above such behavior. I had others, obviously, but those two (especially the second) were the most insidious because they "appeared" to be noble.

 

I know now. I know I am a human being. And because I know that and accept that, I can take steps to prevent getting anywhere near that choice again. Had I not been so naive and prideful, I likely would have avoided it altogether.

[blueskyday]

Yes, feeling vulnerable was your signal that your needs weren't bring met. Great post. You understand now how important tight boundaries are.

 

All affairs start at a point when we lower our boundaries and excuse some behavior by rationalizing it as ok. A compliment from an opposite sex coworker can seem like no big deal, but feeling flattered by it can be the start of a lowering of boundaries.