white_bass87 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 If god needed a perfect person without sin to dief or mankind, Jesus, so that he would not punish us for our sins. Well, why doeshe need to punish us to begin with if he created us in his image…gave us choice, gave us freewill, knew our nature when he created us, knew the deceitful nature of the devil.. if he knows, is omniscient, then he knows what decisions we will make even if we ask and beg for his guidance and receive neglect. Why does he make a s***ty set of rules to begin with, why does he have any need to punish us? Why can he not forgive satan and other fallen angels? Why does he need so much validation and worship from us? Doesn’t he have all the love he needs, seem like a big game of bull-sh*t a lot of times… 1 Link to post Share on other sites
ebor Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 God didn't need a perfect man, he himself paid for our sin! He's not punishing us, he doesn't have anything but Love towards us, but he has a problem with sin. We need him to exist happily but we can't be with him while we still have our sins with us. ''Just like darkness can't exist at the same place as light, sin can't exist with God, he will destroy it'' paraphrase of the Bible God doesn't need anything from us, including worship, he's full all by himself, but we need worship, you have a wrong idea of worship, It means getting to know God and we need that more than anything! Free will makes us human, other wise we will be robots, not a smart idea to take that away from us. God never neglects us, in fact he goes out of his way to connect to us, he gives his love to us and shows it in practice They Bible portraits this as a romantic story which we at first exist well and happy with God, and then FOLLOWING OUR WILL and listening to the devil we cheat on God, he declares his love again and again even though we keep neglecting him and chase other things he finally pays the ultimate price for us and gives us worth and value and he comes on the wedding day to take us to a place he prepared for us to live with him happily 1 Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Did you know angels would give up their high, powerful positions to become human? They see the redemptive love of of Christ towards us, they know that WE will inherit God's kingdom, and I hate to say it but they feel a little jealous. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Did you know angels would give up their high, powerful positions to become human? They see the redemptive love of of Christ towards us, they know that WE will inherit God's kingdom, and I hate to say it but they feel a little jealous. For real? BTW M30, this is powerful and never thought of it quite this way, although you are right. It's just so hard to imagine especially being a human and knowing I suck at it spiritually and in humanly terms. Wow…the angels worship God 24/7 no matter their commission- I worship God maybe twice per day, sometimes more if God manages to get me out of myself for the day:eek: I feel pathetic in comparison to the angels... Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 (edited) For real? BTW M30, this is powerful and never thought of it quite this way, although you are right. It's just so hard to imagine especially being a human and knowing I suck at it spiritually and in humanly terms. Wow…the angels worship God 24/7 no matter their commission- I worship God maybe twice per day, sometimes more if God manages to get me out of myself for the day:eek: I feel pathetic in comparison to the angels... We are CURRENTLY lower than the angels. But the angels KNOW what is going to happen when, as Paul says, the "sons of God" (ie, those reborn of the Spirit) are glorified and revealed to all creation. And not to get on another UFO tangent, but this is part of the reason why UFOs (angelic beings) have a continuous interest in humans as if they are watching. They know what's up and are keeping tabs on it--whether by God's orders or mere curiosity. Remember, they aren't robots either. They are much like us. Even way back when they showed up at Mamre and told Sarah she would have a child, they knew where it all was headed while we didnt. I think THEY were actually excited just to be part of the story, even though we are pathetic humans, lol. Edited May 3, 2014 by M30USA 1 Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 "For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants." (Hebrews 2:16 NIV) What else is there to say? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 If god needed a perfect person without sin to dief or mankind, Jesus, so that he would not punish us for our sins. Well, why doeshe need to punish us to begin with if he created us in his image…gave us choice, gave us freewill, knew our nature when he created us, knew the deceitful nature of the devil.. if he knows, is omniscient, then he knows what decisions we will make even if we ask and beg for his guidance and receive neglect. Why does he make a s***ty set of rules to begin with, why does he have any need to punish us? Why can he not forgive satan and other fallen angels? Why does he need so much validation and worship from us? Doesn’t he have all the love he needs, seem like a big game of bull-sh*t a lot of times… God is definitely mysterious and impossible to understand fully. But open your heart to clarity from God, and you'd be amazed at how many things can be revealed. Have you read any of the bible? (I imagine so...you seem to know a lot!) Are you of any other (non-Christian) religious faith? Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Why can he not forgive satan and other fallen angels? like all healthy relationships, it only works when when both parties consciously choose to be part of it. Otherwise, one will perpetually be the giver and the other the user. If Satan and other fallen angels are more concerned about their ego and what they're getting from the deal, but not offering anything in return, it's an unbalanced relationship that's doomed for failure. Because just like we humans want the folks we forge relationships with to give us respect and find our relationships worth working for, I'm thinking God sees it the same way. Though his reaction would probably be limited to hurt and disappointment, even though he understands it's our right to choose. Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Why can he not forgive satan and other fallen angels? like all healthy relationships, it only works when when both parties consciously choose to be part of it. Otherwise, one will perpetually be the giver and the other the user. If Satan and other fallen angels are more concerned about their ego and what they're getting from the deal, but not offering anything in return, it's an unbalanced relationship that's doomed for failure. Because just like we humans want the folks we forge relationships with to give us respect and find our relationships worth working for, I'm thinking God sees it the same way. Though his reaction would probably be limited to hurt and disappointment, even though he understands it's our right to choose. He can't forgive the angels because the angels don't have a savior. Jesus Christ came in human form; therefore only humans can be forgiven. This goes all the way back into Old Testament law whereby a person can only be redeemed by one of their own kin. If God sent Jesus as an angel, then angels could be forgiven. But he didn't. God operates by very specific legal requirements. He can't just say, "Sure, I forgive you and I'll just make your transgression go POOF into thin air!" His justness must be satisfied and it must be satisfied through his own established laws. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TylerDurdenn Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Some of these replies are scary. Is it all bull****? Of course it is. Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Some of these replies are scary. Is it all bull****? Of course it is. "Because it is sometimes so unbelievable, the truth escapes becoming known." -Heraclitus, 500 BC Link to post Share on other sites
TylerDurdenn Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 "Because it is sometimes so unbelievable, the truth escapes becoming known." -Heraclitus, 500 BC Are you suggesting that there is ANY truth in the bible? If so I would be interested in your evidence! Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Z Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 He can't forgive the angels because the angels don't have a savior. Ah, so he's not omnipotent after all. Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Ah, so he's not omnipotent after all. He chose not to. Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Are you suggesting that there is ANY truth in the bible? If so I would be interested in your evidence! Lol, are you prepared for the evidence? Have you even begun looking? Are you actually earnest in your search for evidence? Or, as most people who make the statement you are currently making, is it a smokescreen so that you don't have to face what you don't want to face? Only you know. If you truly are, a good starting point is "Evidence That Demands A Verdict", by Josh McDowell. Be warned: the book is so thick you might not be able to handle it all. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TylerDurdenn Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Lol, are you prepared for the evidence? Have you even begun looking? Are you actually earnest in your search for evidence? Or, as most people who make the statement you are currently making, is it a smokescreen so that you don't have to face what you don't want to face? Only you know. If you truly are, a good starting point is "Evidence That Demands A Verdict", by Josh McDowell. Be warned: the book is so thick you might not be able to handle it all. Predictable response, yet again religious folk get on their high horse when 'truth' and 'bible' are used in the same statement. Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Predictable response, yet again religious folk get on their high horse when 'truth' and 'bible' are used in the same statement. What high horse? Please stay on topic. You asked for evidence in support of Scripture and I told you where to find, in my opinion, the best and most concise summary. Have a good day. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Predictable response, yet again religious folk get on their high horse when 'truth' and 'bible' are used in the same statement. Actually love, this is a predictable response. Communication with insults lacking in substance, void any and all attempts for decent discussions. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Lol, are you prepared for the evidence? Have you even begun looking? Are you actually earnest in your search for evidence? Or, as most people who make the statement you are currently making, is it a smokescreen so that you don't have to face what you don't want to face? Only you know. If you truly are, a good starting point is "Evidence That Demands A Verdict", by Josh McDowell. Be warned: the book is so thick you might not be able to handle it all. This book sounds good. I love the teachers that I "grew up" with, meaning those that disciple on a corporate/personal level. Back then most were training/discipling many for evangelism- I see less of that today:( 1 Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 This book sounds good. I love the teachers that I "grew up" with, meaning those that disciple on a corporate/personal level. Back then most were training/discipling many for evangelism- I see less of that today:( Maybe I'm getting outdated, myself, but I've always considered Josh McDowell to be one of the "core five" apologeticists. For anyone with ADHD, he has a book you can read in probably 2 hours called "More Than A Carpenter". It's a classic at this point. Link to post Share on other sites
Grumpybutfun Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 If god needed a perfect person without sin to dief or mankind, Jesus, so that he would not punish us for our sins. Well, why doeshe need to punish us to begin with if he created us in his image…gave us choice, gave us freewill, knew our nature when he created us, knew the deceitful nature of the devil.. if he knows, is omniscient, then he knows what decisions we will make even if we ask and beg for his guidance and receive neglect. Why does he make a s***ty set of rules to begin with, why does he have any need to punish us? Why can he not forgive satan and other fallen angels? Why does he need so much validation and worship from us? Doesn’t he have all the love he needs, seem like a big game of bull-sh*t a lot of times… God is many things to different people. He shows his light through certain religions to some and through charity and kindness to others and still through nature and the divine to those seeking enlightenment outside of religion. God is in your heart and it is through your heart that you will find the creator, the higher power that resides in you. We are all receivers of Gods good and for balance and clarity through evil. A good book I have read about the subject is "When Bad Things Happen to Good a People" by Rabbi Harold Kushner. You do not have to be a Jew to read it and he is very compassionate in his responses. It sounds like you are searching for answers and meaning and that is a very confusing time in your life, but also a very good one because it means you are ready to leave behind others truths in search of your own. My journey had me reading everything from Lagerkvist to The Quran and Beckett to The Holy Bible to Kant. Time to figure out what your truth is and what your relationship with God looks like. If, after you have read and soul searched and decided it is hokum, at least you are coming to it from a place of enlightenment. Best, Grumps 1 Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 God is many things to different people. He shows his light through certain religions to some and through charity and kindness to others and still through nature and the divine to those seeking enlightenment outside of religion. God is in your heart and it is through your heart that you will find the creator, the higher power that resides in you. We are all receivers of Gods good and for balance and clarity through evil. A good book I have read about the subject is "When Bad Things Happen to Good a People" by Rabbi Harold Kushner. You do not have to be a Jew to read it and he is very compassionate in his responses. It sounds like you are searching for answers and meaning and that is a very confusing time in your life, but also a very good one because it means you are ready to leave behind others truths in search of your own. My journey had me reading everything from Lagerkvist to The Quran and Beckett to The Holy Bible to Kant. Time to figure out what your truth is and what your relationship with God looks like. If, after you have read and soul searched and decided it is hokum, at least you are coming to it from a place of enlightenment. Best, Grumps With respect, I think all confusion as to who God is was removed when Jesus came. He was the exact "image" of God in human form. Many people encountered him, saying they believed in God but not in him. He quickly said that if they believed in the true God they would believe in Him. The reason they didn't believe in him is because, in Jesus' own words, their father was the devil. Link to post Share on other sites
Smilecharmer Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 If god needed a perfect person without sin to dief or mankind, Jesus, so that he would not punish us for our sins. Well, why doeshe need to punish us to begin with if he created us in his image…gave us choice, gave us freewill, knew our nature when he created us, knew the deceitful nature of the devil.. if he knows, is omniscient, then he knows what decisions we will make even if we ask and beg for his guidance and receive neglect. Why does he make a s***ty set of rules to begin with, why does he have any need to punish us? Why can he not forgive satan and other fallen angels? Why does he need so much validation and worship from us? Doesn’t he have all the love he needs, seem like a big game of bull-sh*t a lot of times… Are you asking about God or Christianity/religion? Link to post Share on other sites
BetheButterfly Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 If god needed a perfect person without sin to dief or mankind, Jesus, so that he would not punish us for our sins. Well, why doeshe need to punish us to begin with if he created us in his image…gave us choice, gave us freewill, knew our nature when he created us, knew the deceitful nature of the devil.. if he knows, is omniscient, then he knows what decisions we will make even if we ask and beg for his guidance and receive neglect. Why does he make a s***ty set of rules to begin with, why does he have any need to punish us? Why can he not forgive satan and other fallen angels? Why does he need so much validation and worship from us? Doesn’t he have all the love he needs, seem like a big game of bull-sh*t a lot of times… Those are great questions. I've asked myself similar questions, and the answers I believe God gave me are the following: 1. God is God. He can do what He wants. I am not God, and in comparison to God I am like an ant compared to a human. Ants don't understand humans at all. Similarly, trying to understand God is similar to an ant trying to understand a human. It's important to remember that God is not human. While Christians (including me) believe Jesus is God incarnate, human is not God's original form. Rather, God is Spirit (John 4:24). Below is a verse that illustrates how God is a Being that is superior to the human species: “All people are like grass, and all their faithfulness is like the flowers of the field. 7 The grass withers and the flowers fall, because the breath of the Lord blows on them. Surely the people are grass. 8 The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever.” ... " 10 See, the Sovereign Lord comes with power, and he rules with a mighty arm. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him. 11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young." ... "15 Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket; they are regarded as dust on the scales; he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust. Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket; they are regarded as dust on the scales; he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust." ... "22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. 23 He brings princes to naught and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing. 24 No sooner are they planted, no sooner are they sown, no sooner do they take root in the ground, than he blows on them and they wither, and a whirlwind sweeps them away like chaff." (Isaiah 40 NIV) Jesus compared people to plants in a few of his parables: "37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear." (Matthew 13 NIV) Jesus also compares people to sheep (John 10). (He is not insulting people; he is showing though that in God's eyes, we are like sheep.) 2. If I created a world (which I can't, though I would love to), I would not allow any "bad choice." I would create adorable living robots that could not hurt others or themselves. However, the gift of free will that God gives is a test. It's a test to see what humans will do with their free will. Deuteronomy 8:2 "Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands." Deuteronomy 13:3 "you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul." 1 Chronicles 29:17 "I know, my God, that you test the heart and are pleased with integrity. All these things I have given willingly and with honest intent. And now I have seen with joy how willingly your people who are here have given to you." Psalm 17:3 "Though you probe my heart, though you examine me at night and test me, you will find that I have planned no evil; my mouth has not transgressed." Proverbs 17:3 "The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold, but the Lord tests the heart." 1 Thessalonians 2:4"On the contrary, we speak as those approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please people but God, who tests our hearts." So basically, in order to answer your following questions, "Why does he make a s***ty set of rules to begin with, why does he have any need to punish us? Why can he not forgive satan and other fallen angels? Why does he need so much validation and worship from us?" God is not a human, though Christians believe he came in human form (Jesus Christ) to save us. God tests us. God rewards those who pass the test. In a way, the testing thing is not alien to humans. We take tests in school and are rewarded with good grades when we pass the tests well. God's tests however are different in that they have to do with what we do with our free will. Regardless of what we think of God's rules, God tests us with them, which includes how we treat other people, even people we don't like. Jesus' command to love one's enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37) is in my opinion one of the hardest tests God gives. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Yes, it's all BS. Good to see you are still on these forums HS! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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