Jehovah Witness - trying to understand

[Hope Shimmers]

I have had a good friend who is Jehovah Witness. I didn't find this out about him for awhile after becoming close friends as he was concerned of my reaction and avoided telling me.

 

My reaction to him was that certainly, I respect anyone else's beliefs for themselves. I guess my only reaction to me is that - despite a lot of conversations about it - I am having trouble agreeing with all of it. The concept is that the Bible is taken literally. The problem is that I'm not an expert on the Bible (read it once) but I'm having trouble with some things that to me seem like double standards with JW and the Bible.

 

I did talk to a JW representative at the suggestion of my friend - this person basically shunned me and said I have sinned beyond what is acceptable by the Bible (because I divorced a man who beat and raped me - the only acceptable reason for divorce is infidelity).

 

The other thing that bothers me, as a physician, is the issue of blood products. I have read and studied the reasons that JW's won't accept blood products, which is based on a verse in the Bible saying that blood products should not be ingested. But, in a transfusion blood products are not ingested in the way of going through the stomach (as referred to in the Bible). And, aside from this, why would God deny a method of lifesaving for people?

 

If anyone who knows about the religion can shed light, I would appreciate it. My brain just can't wrap around it. Thanks.

[M30USA]

The blood topic, in my opinion, is a secondary issue. Most religious discussions are secondary issues. The primary focus should be what they say about the identity of Jesus Christ and also what man's role in relationship to God is.

 

JWs deny that Christ is God in human flesh (they believe he was Michael the Archangel). Paul said this one belief ALONE qualifies someone as having the "spirit of antichrist". They also don't believe in eternal hell. The problem is they never tell you this up front. It's only after lengthy discussion or when you forcefully press them on the issue that they admit this. That in itself is very telling. Cults always operate this way.

 

If you're asking us if JW's can be "nice" people from the perspective of society, sure they can. Anybody can. They are obviously well-dressed, well-mannered, and "nice". But those are external appearances. Many wolves are dressed in sheeps clothing.

Edited May 7, 2014 by M30USA

[snappytomcat]

I didn't even know about the blood thing,in that religion,i live up on a hill and I can see them walking up to pass out their brochures,and if my husband has the garage open I scream shut the door they are coming!and we close up like fort knox,I just don't need to get into any kind of religious talk with them,im Christian,but im not a really religious person

[123321]

im Christian,but im not a really religious person

 

This is true of almost all self-identified "Christians".

 

 

I did talk to a JW representative at the suggestion of my friend - this person basically shunned me and said I have sinned beyond what is acceptable by the Bible (because I divorced a man who beat and raped me - the only acceptable reason for divorce is infidelity).

 

I'm very knowledgable about this particular subject, and all I can say is that either the "representative" misspoke, or you misunderstood, or you are lying. The above quote in no way represents the beliefs of JWs.

 

If you doubt me, go to jw.org and poke around.

 

 

Even if you had been a member in good standing, there would be avenues to take to regain good standing. As a non-member you would not be shunned in any way shape or form.

[M30USA]

123321,

 

Can you tell me directly whether or not JWs believe Christ is God in human flesh; that he coexisted with the Father from eternity; and that he was not created but rather created all things with the Father?

[123321]

123321,

 

Can you tell me directly whether or not JWs believe Christ is God in human flesh; that he coexisted with the Father from eternity; and that he was not created but rather created all things with the Father?

 

Create a thread, and I will point you to jw.org.

[M30USA]

Create a thread, and I will point you to jw.org.

 

I once spent over 10 accumulated hours debating a JW that came to my door on this. I know your belief. I was just hoping you'd be direct for the benefit of LS members reading this.

[123321]

I once spent over 10 accumulated hours debating a JW that came to my door on this. I know your belief. I was just hoping you'd be direct for the benefit of LS members reading this.

 

How do you know MY belief?

[eleanorrigby]

I didn't even know about the blood thing,in that religion,i live up on a hill and I can see them walking up to pass out their brochures,and if my husband has the garage open I scream shut the door they are coming!and we close up like fort knox,I just don't need to get into any kind of religious talk with them,im Christian,but im not a really religious person

 

 

The group that has been coming to our house lately is going to get cursed out on the next visit. I'm over it.

 

Every weekend they have been coming by with leaflets, banging on the door.

 

Last weekend, they caught us as we are leaving the house and would not take a hint, even when my husband is backing away with each word, I'm already sitting in the car and the car is running!

 

I have no more patience. The next knock on the door is not going to be pretty.

[angel.eyes]

First, I am so sorry you had to endure an abusive marriage!

 

Central to any religion is God. My very first question when faced with a particular religion centers on God--What is that religion's conception of God?

 

JWs do not believe in the Trinity--a triumvirate God consisting of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit.

 

Like Mormons, they demote Jesus. As I understand it, JWs believe Jesus Christ was the creation of God. Christ then created the world. JWs equate Jesus Christ to the Archangel Michael and to Apollyon. They believe Christ intercedes on our behalf with God, but he is not himself God. Only God is to be worshipped, not Christ.

 

They also believe the Holy Spirit is simply God's "power," not the third discrete part of the Trinity of God.

 

We can focus on the fact that JWs believe in a hierarchy of sin, don't believe in an eternal soul, shun those who commit certain sins or question their "edicts" from JW headquarters, etc., but really, that's all completely irrelevant because we don't even agree on who God is. At its core, what defines any faith is...God (or the lack of God in non-theistic faiths).

 

This might be a good time for you to start re-reading the Bible. There are lots of readers, schedules, apps, etc. to get you started and keep you on track. Consider joining a bible study group as well, one that shares the same tenets of faith that you hold.

 

I say that as a well-meant caution, not criticism or judgment. (I too don't spend nearly enough time reading the Bible on my own, so I empathize with the challenges.) Humans are fallible. You place yourself at risk to be misled by others from what you believe, when you aren't very familiar with God's Word. You also eliminate one route that God uses to speak to us.

Edited May 7, 2014 by angel.eyes

[angel.eyes]

This is true of almost all self-identified "Christians".

 

 

 

 

I'm very knowledgable about this particular subject, and all I can say is that either the "representative" misspoke, or you misunderstood,or you are lying. The above quote in no way represents the beliefs of JWs.

 

If you doubt me, go to jw.org and poke around.

 

 

Even if you had been a member in good standing, there would be avenues to take to regain good standing. As a non-member you would not be shunned in any way shape or form.

Typically, only members are shunned or defellowshipped for certain sins. As a non-member you shouldn't be subjected to this type of treatment because they are still actively recruiting you and trying to bring you into their fold.

[Hope Shimmers]

I'm very knowledgable about this particular subject, and all I can say is that either the "representative" misspoke, or you misunderstood, or you are lying. The above quote in no way represents the beliefs of JWs.

 

I am certainly not lying. This was during a discussion where they were trying to set up a home meeting to basically 'recruit' me. When my marriage history came out, I was told that divorce is a sin except in cases of infidelity and suddenly there was no more mention of this home visit.

 

So you are saying that what he said was not true? That JWs are okay with divorce for reasons other than infidelity? I ask because I did look that up after the visit (and asked my friend) and what I said was verified.

[snappytomcat]

This is true of almost all self-identified "Christians".

 

 

 

 

I'm very knowledgable about this particular subject, and all I can say is that either the "representative" misspoke, or you misunderstood, or you are lying. The above quote in no way represents the beliefs of JWs.

 

If you doubt me, go to jw.org and poke around.

 

 

Even if you had been a member in good standing, there would be avenues to take to regain good standing. As a non-member you would not be shunned in any way shape or form.

why would she lie?i don't think shes lying what happened to her is horrible,no one would lie about that

hope,im so sorry you have gone through so much,you are a strong person

[snappytomcat]

 

The group that has been coming to our house lately is going to get cursed out on the next visit. I'm over it.

 

Every weekend they have been coming by with leaflets, banging on the door.

 

Last weekend, they caught us as we are leaving the house and would not take a hint, even when my husband is backing away with each word, I'm already sitting in the car and the car is running!

 

I have no more patience. The next knock on the door is not going to be pretty.

lol I hear you,im a nice person,but come on enough is enough

[todreaminblue]

I know that a lot of j ws follow what the bible says how to live life, that they have the freedom to choose what they believe in.....and that they have beliefs that dont feel right in my heart......i refuse to say what they are ......and respect their beliefs to be as they are, whether i believe them or not

 

 

i know that they must have followed my daughter home from a train station after speaking with her and turned up specifically asking for her.......

 

in which i told them what faith i do believe in and that i would be willing to discuss that with them if they wished to, they now come around intermittently and drop off their magazines........invite me to things......and i always answer the door and accept what they give and wish them well...i dont attend what they invite me too

 

 

i know that we are asked to pray to god in the bible to know what is truth....and to follow our hearts which i have.I think you have to know about different faiths to recognise truth or what feels like personal truth to you its a very personal thing, the one choice i guess you make that determines everything ...they way you live the way you die what you hope for and then fro every generation after you to know what you stood for and why so the biggest choice anyone makes to follow and believe in for generations not only their life ....families often follow beliefs..... so it is a bit important to respect some ones choice in this regard............. and all faiths should be respected whether you agree with them or not.......

this coming from a woman who got kicked out of scripture classes at school as a girl for visiting different ones on a weekly basis........trying to find the faith that was my hearts faith..

 

i found my faith late in life i guess....smilin.....lol.... and it is not the one of the faiths that kicked me out as a girl or refused to marry my mother because it was her second marriage and she had me borne from rape or the one that my mother taught sunday school at until she was molested by a person of high standing who should have known it was wrong......and then lied his ass off

 

you know when you find the right faith ....until then respect all......even the ones that do things you dont agree with or have done things you dont agree with...just dont join those........best wishes.....deb

[123321]

I am certainly not lying.

 

I did give two other options.

[Hope Shimmers]

I did give two other options.

 

Yes, and that's why I asked you specifically about those two other options in my reply to you, but you didn't answer.

[Hope Shimmers]

Thanks to all who replied.

 

Angel.eyes, you are right that it is time for me to re-read the Bible. This is something I had decided as well.

 

In my profession I have seen more than one person die needlessly (some children, which upsets me more than anything since they have no say) because of the religious beliefs not to do a blood transfusion. I can't image a god that would want that for a child (or anyone). When I ask the 'why' question I get the same answer - "we do not debate this with others; we simply do what the Bible says". Well I have read and studied these passages in the Bible and I'm not convinced that this is what it says at all.

 

I am also socially liberal and don't discriminate against people who are gay. The response I received to that was much the same as the above, and also that gay people would be welcome in the JW community as long as they abstain from their gay behavior. (Come on... the science has been out there for a long time now that clearly shows that gay people are hard-wired that way and can't change their behavior on a "wish" any more than a heterosexual person can).

 

Honestly, for details which I'll leave out here, I wanted nothing more to find belief and make sense of this religion but I just can't. I just wondered if I am missing something, as most of my exposure to this has been self-study.

[Madman81]

 

The group that has been coming to our house lately is going to get cursed out on the next visit. I'm over it.

 

Every weekend they have been coming by with leaflets, banging on the door.

 

Last weekend, they caught us as we are leaving the house and would not take a hint, even when my husband is backing away with each word, I'm already sitting in the car and the car is running!

 

I have no more patience. The next knock on the door is not going to be pretty.

A friend of mine's father had a great way to get them to go away.

 

He opened the door, they gave their introductory schpiel, and he responded by saying, in the most evil voice he could muster, "boy, have YOU come to the wrong place!" Followed by diabolical laughter, and slamming the door.

[123321]

When my marriage history came out, I was told that divorce is a sin except in cases of infidelity and suddenly there was no more mention of this home visit.

 

Your history would have no bearing on this as long as you were not in the past a member in good standing.

 

 

So you are saying that what he said was not true? That JWs are okay with divorce for reasons other than infidelity? I ask because I did look that up after the visit (and asked my friend) and what I said was verified.

 

If a member gets divorced they are not free to remarry except in cases of infidelity. As a non-member this does not apply to how you would be viewed.

[Haydn]

They always turn up on my doorstep Sunday mornings. `Beautiful day` `No its raining`.

 

`Have you ever thought about how lucky you are to have god in your life?`

 

`Ok, give a me a couple of copies of watch tower and i`ll make sure they end up in the right `dr`s waiting rooms`

[Hope Shimmers]

If a member gets divorced they are not free to remarry except in cases of infidelity. As a non-member this does not apply to how you would be viewed.

 

Thanks. I know it would have no bearing if I were not a member. The point is they were trying to recruit me to be a member.

 

So because my husband chose to be abusive and I chose not to live with it, I would be punished by not being allowed to marry? Does that honestly make sense to you?

[taiko]

Thanks. I know it would have no bearing if I were not a member. The point is they were trying to recruit me to be a member.

 

So because my husband chose to be abusive and I chose not to live with it, I would be punished by not being allowed to marry? Does that honestly make sense to you?

 

To be clear the issue is not the divorce, it is the second marriage while the first spouse still lives.

 

Since Catholicism makes up half of the Christian world by themselves that is the orthodox position of most of the Christian church. Many denominations may give a local elder or a tribunal the power to override that base position after his or hers investigation of the divorce. Some may hold out and claim to even find a way to declare there never was a covenant marriage in the first place as the Catholic Church does with an increasing frequency since it is among other issues which causes a loss of market share to other bodies of Christ.

 

The more fundamental that local Christian community is the more pressure they are under to find a Biblical reason to allow a member to remarry before the death of the former spouse. For some it is only legitimate reason is the spouse physically cheating, others will add in abandonment. Otherwise you face degrees of dis-fellowship from not being allowed to share in communion with the others or many sacraments for the rest of your life like the official Catholic position, to being an example as other members are taught to avoid close relationships with someone living in open sin and disobedience since you are officially seen as an adulterer and causing scandal as the church is open to charges of hypocrisy.

[Hope Shimmers]

To be clear the issue is not the divorce, it is the second marriage while the first spouse still lives.

 

Since Catholicism makes up half of the Christian world by themselves that is the orthodox position of most of the Christian church. Many denominations may give a local elder or a tribunal the power to override that base position after his or hers investigation of the divorce. Some may hold out and claim to even find a way to declare there never was a covenant marriage in the first place as the Catholic Church does with an increasing frequency since it is among other issues which causes a loss of market share to other bodies of Christ.

 

The more fundamental that local Christian community is the more pressure they are under to find a Biblical reason to allow a member to remarry before the death of the former spouse. For some it is only legitimate reason is the spouse physically cheating, others will add in abandonment. Otherwise you face degrees of dis-fellowship from not being allowed to share in communion with the others or many sacraments for the rest of your life like the official Catholic position, to being an example as other members are taught to avoid close relationships with someone living in open sin and disobedience since you are officially seen as an adulterer and causing scandal as the church is open to charges of hypocrisy.

 

Thanks.

 

IMO, If this is what it takes to have everlasting life, then I'll gladly go the other direction.

Edited May 10, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[taiko]

They always turn up on my doorstep Sunday mornings. `Beautiful day` `No its raining`.

 

`Have you ever thought about how lucky you are to have god in your life?`

 

`Ok, give a me a couple of copies of watch tower and i`ll make sure they end up in the right `dr`s waiting rooms`

 

They are among the most aggressive door to door evangelists. many ex members report that they debrief after every foray and those homes which show the least resistance are targeted for follow up visits as they attempt to send the closer the get the conversion.