Jehovah Witness - trying to understand

[123321]

Thanks. I know it would have no bearing if I were not a member. The point is they were trying to recruit me to be a member.

 

So because my husband chose to be abusive and I chose not to live with it, I would be punished by not being allowed to marry? Does that honestly make sense to you?

 

I'm honestly not sure how a past marriage would affect your future as a member in this circumstance, when they talk I don't argue, I listen and ask questions; this is why I know more about them than some other posters. I don't know everything however.

 

I do know they are strict about the word of God as found in the Bible, and don't cut themselves any easy outs for bad behavior. If I had to choose neighbors they would be very high on my list of people I would like to have living close to me, I know that.

[pureinheart]

They are among the most aggressive door to door evangelists. many ex members report that they debrief after every foray and those homes which show the least resistance are targeted for follow up visits as they attempt to send the closer the get the conversion.

 

They are very organized and do have spreadsheets. I can't speak for other areas, but here they do evangelize according to lists.

 

123, I really like what you said. It bothers me when people are mean to them when they come knocking and glad you weren't. I do have them as neighbors and they are cool people. They watch the neighborhood as far as crime goes…it's great.

 

My advice to those in the US as far as solicitation. If these groups are that annoying, place a "No Soliciting" sign on your property that can be well seen. All groups have to respect this as it is the law. Also this keeps door to door sales people from solicitation.

Edited May 10, 2014 by pureinheart

[M30USA]

They are very organized and do have spreadsheets. I can't speak for other areas, but here they do evangelize according to lists.

 

123, I really like what you said. It bothers me when people are mean to them when they come knocking and glad you weren't. I do have them as neighbors and they are cool people. They watch the neighborhood as far as crime goes…it's great.

 

My advice to those in the US as far as solicitation. If these groups are that annoying, place a "No Soliciting" sign on your property that can be well seen. All groups have to respect this as it is the law. Also this keeps door to door sales people from solicitation.

 

JWs are more earnest in their faith than most Christians. We could learn something from them.

 

I welcome them and even try to witness to THEM. I think once I had a young kid seriously considering what I was telling him about how Scripture proves that Christ was not an angel. I think part of the problem is they have additional books and Gospels which add on to Scripture. In this case they need to be presented with the verse in Revelation about how anyone who adds or takes away a single word of Gospel will be cursed--even if an angel from heaven speaks it to them with their own mouth.

[M30USA]

I know this may sound strange and many will laugh, but when a person such as JW comes to your door, keep in the back of your mind the possibility that he might be a angel. I'm not saying necessarily a good angel. Hebrews tells us to consider this exact situation in chapter 13 verse 2.

[pureinheart]

JWs are more earnest in their faith than most Christians. We could learn something from them.

 

I welcome them and even try to witness to THEM. I think once I had a young kid seriously considering what I was telling him about how Scripture proves that Christ was not an angel. I think part of the problem is they have additional books and Gospels which add on to Scripture. In this case they need to be presented with the verse in Revelation about how anyone who adds or takes away a single word of Gospel will be cursed--even if an angel from heaven speaks it to them with their own mouth.

 

Some of them know the Bible better than I do. I remember speaking with a group that came to my door- they made me look pathetic as far as debating goes, lol. All I could say was, "but your faith doesn't believe that Jesus is God and that is the deal breaker for me, the litmus test". They re-directed me and then I became more confused, which was the point as they could tell I was educated as far as the "differences", but not good at defending them.

 

I can imagine you do very well with this sort of evangelism, it is the most difficult IMO. Those that are "sent out" are very well trained and are aware of the arguments they will come against. Arguments is not the word I wanted to use, but can't think of another term right now.

 

The Scripture, anyone who takes away or adds to…wow that is a scary one due to it being so specific.

[pureinheart]

I know this may sound strange and many will laugh, but when a person such as JW comes to your door, keep in the back of your mind the possibility that he might be a angel. I'm not saying necessarily a good angel. Hebrews tells us to consider this exact situation in chapter 13 verse 2.

 

I've never thought of this situation taking place...

[M30USA]

Some of them know the Bible better than I do. I remember speaking with a group that came to my door- they made me look pathetic as far as debating goes, lol. All I could say was, "but your faith doesn't believe that Jesus is God and that is the deal breaker for me, the litmus test". They re-directed me and then I became more confused, which was the point as they could tell I was educated as far as the "differences", but not good at defending them.

 

I can imagine you do very well with this sort of evangelism, it is the most difficult IMO. Those that are "sent out" are very well trained and are aware of the arguments they will come against. Arguments is not the word I wanted to use, but can't think of another term right now.

 

The Scripture, anyone who takes away or adds to…wow that is a scary one due to it being so specific.

 

It's like politics. You won't get a direct answer. A lot of yeah buts, etc. They will even say that Jesus is the "son of God" but you'll find they have a different definition of what this means and, in the end, they place him in lower rank than God the Father. The crack in their defenses comes when you ask if Jesus is the "Almighty God". They seem to come true for some reason with that specific term. They deny Jesus is the Almighty. When they do this, ask them why Isaiah 9:6 said the child messiah was to be called "wonderful counselor, almighty God, everlasting father".

[OpenBook]

They will even say that Jesus is the "son of God" but you'll find they have a different definition of what this means and, in the end, they place him in lower rank than God the Father. The crack in their defenses comes when you ask if Jesus is the "Almighty God". They seem to come true for some reason with that specific term. They deny Jesus is the Almighty. When they do this, ask them why Isaiah 9:6 said the child messiah was to be called "wonderful counselor, almighty God, everlasting father".

 

Well, Jesus did place Himself separately from, and at a lower rank than, God. (Mark 10:18) I think He wanted to teach us how to worship God by showing us how to do it. And He wanted to make sure we worshipped God ("my Father in heaven") instead of Himself (Jesus).

 

But I think both answers are correct. Jesus was/is a separate entity from God - yet at the same time He IS God. A dichotomy that us mere mortals are not equipped to fully comprehend because it makes no logical sense under our physical laws. But since when has God been constrained by the laws of the physical realm?

 

So yeah, I don't fault the JW's for this doctrine. I fault them for their approach to people. Does God really want us to bang down people's doors and shove our religious beliefs down their throats? I don't see Jesus doing that anywhere in the Bible.

[M30USA]

Well, Jesus did place Himself separately from, and at a lower rank than, God. (Mark 10:18) I think He wanted to teach us how to worship God by showing us how to do it. And He wanted to make sure we worshipped God ("my Father in heaven") instead of Himself (Jesus).

 

But I think both answers are correct. Jesus was/is a separate entity from God - yet at the same time He IS God. A dichotomy that us mere mortals are not equipped to fully comprehend because it makes no logical sense under our physical laws. But since when has God been constrained by the laws of the physical realm?

 

So yeah, I don't fault the JW's for this doctrine. I fault them for their approach to people. Does God really want us to bang down people's doors and shove our religious beliefs down their throats? I don't see Jesus doing that anywhere in the Bible.

 

Jesus only "submitted" to God for the sake of man's redemption. He is not lower than the Father nor was he required to submit. But so that mankind might be redeemed, he took on the form of a human and submitted as a servant to the point of death.

 

"[Jesus Christ] who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage..." (Philippians 2:6 NIV)

 

Implied in the above verse is Jesus' equality with God.

 

Lastly, lets use logical reasoning. If Jesus is not fully God (equal to the Father), then what is he? Being lower than God makes you NOT God. You cant have different tiers/levels of God. So then what is he? An angel? That's EXACTLY where the JW reasoning comes from. It's the thought process of antichrist.

Edited May 10, 2014 by M30USA

[123321]

Thanks. I know it would have no bearing if I were not a member. The point is they were trying to recruit me to be a member.

 

That's not what you said in your OP:

 

I did talk to a JW representative at the suggestion of my friend - this person basically shunned me ....

 

So what's up with that?

 

 

Some of them know the Bible better than I do.

 

Well they study it from childhood several times a week, often several times a day.

 

 

Well, Jesus did place Himself separately from, and at a lower rank than, God. (Mark 10:18) I think He wanted to teach us how to worship God by showing us how to do it.

 

That seems to be what the Bible is saying.

 

 

Does God really want us to bang down people's doors and shove our religious beliefs down their throats? I don't see Jesus doing that anywhere in the Bible.

 

Well, that's basically what got him killed. Not popular back then either apparently.

[Hope Shimmers]

That's not what you said in your OP.

So what's up with that?

 

I don't know what you are talking about. I said in my original post that I talked to a friend who was a JW, and based on what he told me, he said I would be shunned by others. And he was right, as these people shunned me in terms of welcoming me as a member, including himself.

 

I had thought about becoming a member before this. That's why I posted.

[angel.eyes]

Thanks.

 

IMO, If this is what it takes to have everlasting life, then I'll gladly go the other direction.

 

That's a pretty powerful statement to make about the disposition of your soul for eternity, I would think.

 

I could be wrong, but I suspect your comment is coming from a place of anger and hurt, rather than conviction. It sounds as if you're feeling very frustrated and upset at the moment. That's understandable. But recognize that God grants believers grace to get through and grow as a result of the challenges they're given. Like Ruth and Orpah, we have free will to choose...to accept God wholeheartedly and his will for us and to have faith in his wisdom for our lives...or to strike out on our own when we think we can do better than what he has planned for us (Ruth 1:14-16). Our choice ultimately determines our destiny.

 

Perhaps right now you feel life has dealt you a very unfair hand and you aren't being given a "break" by biblical requirements. Unfortunately, we have Adam and Eve to thank for our legacy on earth and whatever unhappiness we ultimately suffer. It will be unimaginably worse once God withdraws from the lives of the unsaved at the end times. Quite frankly, it's not something I would wish on my worst enemy.

 

Would you consider revisiting your thinking on this in a month or two? Maybe read the book of Job before you do so. Then volunteer with the homeless or in a soup kitchen.

[angel.eyes]

...I think part of the problem is they have additional books and Gospels which add on to Scripture. In this case they need to be presented with the verse in Revelation about how anyone who adds or takes away a single word of Gospel will be cursed--even if an angel from heaven speaks it to them with their own mouth.

 

In my experience, JWs make a clear distinction between the Bible and other materials they use. They hold the Bible to be the inspired word of God. I agree with that. They do not equate other clarifying materials they regularly study with the Bible, nor do they view these other materials as infallible. While they may dis-fellowship members who question headquarters' interpretation of things, they are also clear that their elders at headquarters are fallible. As such, their stance on supplemental materials and their leadership is no different than those of the Catholic Church or "traditional" protestant churches.

 

The real issue (for me at least) is their interpretation of fundamental parts of scripture, particularly who God is. I follow what I believe in my heart to be true...what I have been led by the Holy Spirit to believe is truth. They are just as earnest about following what they believe in their hearts to be true. We'll know at the end of time, who was right! In the meanwhile, I respect their sincerity and conviction, just not some of the specifics of their interpretation.

[Tressugar]

All I can say, JW people are strange. My former MIL and now my neighbors are bent on exclusions instead of inclusions.

[angel.eyes]

...I fault them for their approach to people. Does God really want us to bang down people's doors and shove our religious beliefs down their throats? I don't see Jesus doing that anywhere in the Bible.

 

Jesus instructs us in the Great Commission to proselytize non-believers (Matthew 28:19-20). He clearly modelled this for us. He spent his entire life on earth proselytizing, even as a young boy (Luke 2:41-49). John the Baptist was executed for sharing the Good News. So was Jesus. Many of the apostles were imprisoned and martyred for proselytizing non-believers. They were all brave enough to share the Word despite overt societal resistance, significant sacrifice, and the very real threat to their lives. For many, it in fact cost them their lives.

 

Most of us are truly blessed to live in an environment where we do not risk death for sharing our beliefs with non-believers. The most we might face is ridicule and scorn. Given the grace we've been shown by God, in the grand scheme of things, this is a truly small price to pay to carry out God's wishes.

 

I do have to ask... Who is really behaving "badly" in these encounters? Strangers strike up conversations with us all the time when we're in public. Garrulous neighbors make us late for our appointments. People chatter away with us on plane rides when we would rather be left in peace. They are treated civilly. Yet somehow, it's suddenly okay to be rude and mean to someone because the topic happens to be their faith. Suddenly it's acceptable to brag about just how poorly one can treat another human being. It's a mark of pride to disrespect someone in the worst possible way available, in the moment, and to trample over that person's feelings with callous disregard.

 

We share our opinions and thoughts constantly with others. We converse, we debate respectfully, and we exchange ideas. No one feels compelled to mistreat someone else or to denigrate them because they happen to hold a conflicting view. It only feels like it's being shoved down someone's throat when it's an unwelcome message. Perhaps the issue is that the strength of their conviction and their earnest commitment causes us to squirm about our own relationship with God, our faith, and the way we live our lives (John 3:19-21). I am honestly at a total loss to explain the vitriol that folks feel entitled to heap on them.

 

Personally, I'm glad that they care enough about their duty as believers and my soul to try and save it. We simply disagree on who is saving it! But that's okay. We both learn and grow from our exchanges...well I do anyway...and it costs me nothing to be polite.

 

ETA:

In my experience they don't bang down my door. I've never witnessed or encountered this. They ring the door bell just as my other neighbors do. So do friends, visitors, my landscaper, the postman, delivery people, and sundry others.

Edited May 11, 2014 by angel.eyes

[irc333]

I fault them for their approach to people. Does God really want us to bang down people's doors and shove our religious beliefs down their throats? I don't see Jesus doing that anywhere in the Bible.

 

It's one thing that people shove religion down your throats, but to try to get people to switch churches?? I find that to be a bit unethical. You could tell a Jehovah Witness, "No thank you, I go to the "so and so church of God". and they still would try to recruit you to THEIR church.

 

I had tried to respect Jehovah Witnesses, one day I let them give me their spiel as I am a fellow Christian.

 

Then of course, their main mission was just to be recruiters to increase the numbers in their church and nothing more.

 

First, they did the bait and switch thing with me, they handed out fliers about how many homes get burglarized and the issue with identity theft.

 

It appeared they were trying to suck you in about a topic then "switch" to another. It was kind of wierd, because I knew they were Jehovah Witnesses anyhow and I was wondering why they were talking to me about identity theft. LOL

 

So I was kind of turned off by their "Sales pitch" in so much they tried to start with a completely unrelated topic THEN switch to the topic they WANTED To talk about.

 

Then at the end of their "spiel" they would try to get me to come to their church, and I said, "Oh no, I go to the <name of church locally> and they were like "Ooooh, we have <name of church/religion> come to our church!

 

I said "No thank you" and closed the door.

 

 

 

I have had a good friend who is Jehovah Witness. I didn't find this out about him for awhile after becoming close friends as he was concerned of my reaction and avoided telling me.

 

My reaction to him was that certainly, I respect anyone else's beliefs for themselves. I guess my only reaction to me is that - despite a lot of conversations about it - I am having trouble agreeing with all of it. The concept is that the Bible is taken literally. The problem is that I'm not an expert on the Bible (read it once) but I'm having trouble with some things that to me seem like double standards with JW and the Bible.

 

I did talk to a JW representative at the suggestion of my friend - this person basically shunned me and said I have sinned beyond what is acceptable by the Bible (because I divorced a man who beat and raped me - the only acceptable reason for divorce is infidelity).

 

The other thing that bothers me, as a physician, is the issue of blood products. I have read and studied the reasons that JW's won't accept blood products, which is based on a verse in the Bible saying that blood products should not be ingested. But, in a transfusion blood products are not ingested in the way of going through the stomach (as referred to in the Bible). And, aside from this, why would God deny a method of lifesaving for people?

 

If anyone who knows about the religion can shed light, I would appreciate it. My brain just can't wrap around it. Thanks.

Edited May 11, 2014 by irc333

[DKT3]

Most of what's said about them is is far from the truth. My grandmother is and has been one my whole life.

 

In my opinion they are the worlds largest cult. They don't believe in education, I have an issue with that. They believe only 144,000 will enter heaven all others that survive God war on the world will live on an Earth much like that of Adam and Eve. They feel that they can dictate to member how they CAN live their life all the way down to facial hair. Another fun fact is that they have predictated the end of the world several times and have seen membership sharpely drop afterwards. The latest is that thoses born in 1914 would see the end times. Well I haven't run into a ton of 100 year old people lately. There are plenty still around but they better get that whole thing lined up, tick tock.

 

I'm not a religious person but have always been interested and I have studied most in great detail. I don't debate with people, as my uncle who is a Pastor once told me "all the logic in the world makes no sense to a true believer." Conversation over, and I've avoided them since then.

 

Thing is no group is any better then the others, all have their flaws, some bigger then others.

Edited May 11, 2014 by DKT3
context error

[123321]

I don't know what you are talking about. I said in my original post that I talked to a friend who was a JW, and based on what he told me, he said I would be shunned by others. And he was right, as these people shunned me in terms of welcoming me as a member, including himself.

 

Again, this is not the policy of the WBTS as I understand it and as published on their official site. Perhaps you misinterpreted the interaction.

[bubbaganoosh]

I knew someone who is a JW and one day I saw his "book" and started leafing through it and came across something real interesting.

 

The know they can be a pain in the ass to a lot of people and in his book, there were all these different scenarios where if you go to someones house and the home owner say's one thing, then in the book it gives them the counter point.

 

In other words, they pretty much know what a reply will be if you choose to engage them in a debate on your front porch with the kid crying in the back round and the supper that's on the stove starts burning.

 

I wont make light of someone's religion. That's too personal and offensive but I do believe that if you have to recruit people to your religion, then there's a problem. You shouldn't have to. If a person wants to be a member or learn more then they will come to you rather then sending out people to get you to join.

 

All in all, someday when it's out turn to take our last breath and we do, were all going to get the answer and a real big surprise.

[pureinheart]

It's like politics. You won't get a direct answer. A lot of yeah buts, etc. They will even say that Jesus is the "son of God" but you'll find they have a different definition of what this means and, in the end, they place him in lower rank than God the Father. The crack in their defenses comes when you ask if Jesus is the "Almighty God". They seem to come true for some reason with that specific term. They deny Jesus is the Almighty. When they do this, ask them why Isaiah 9:6 said the child messiah was to be called "wonderful counselor, almighty God, everlasting father".

 

You are so right, it is like politics. I'm not sure what my problem is and need to take this one to the Throne. With politics I have no problem placing my opinion as to what I know to be true, yet fail greatly concerning speaking the same truth when the door is open (speaking specifically when JW's come to the door…which is a major open door). Maybe it's a fear of confrontation because I know there will be one. Funny, confrontation has never been an issue…hoping this is just a phase or something.

 

Thinking "online" is so much easier because there is all of the information at my disposal, but with face to face I clam up now. Maybe I've made it too complicated and need to just speak it…lol…one possibility would be to let the Spirit speak through me…there's a new concept:laugh:

 

Thank you for the tip, it sounds like a good, rational tool.

[pureinheart]

In my experience, JWs make a clear distinction between the Bible and other materials they use. They hold the Bible to be the inspired word of God. I agree with that. They do not equate other clarifying materials they regularly study with the Bible, nor do they view these other materials as infallible. While they may dis-fellowship members who question headquarters' interpretation of things, they are also clear that their elders at headquarters are fallible. As such, their stance on supplemental materials and their leadership is no different than those of the Catholic Church or "traditional" protestant churches.

 

The real issue (for me at least) is their interpretation of fundamental parts of scripture, particularly who God is. I follow what I believe in my heart to be true...what I have been led by the Holy Spirit to believe is truth. They are just as earnest about following what they believe in their hearts to be true. We'll know at the end of time, who was right! In the meanwhile, I respect their sincerity and conviction, just not some of the specifics of their interpretation.

 

That trips me out. After reading 123's response (to me) concerning their diligence to Bible study, I began to wonder how could the fact that Jesus is God get misinterpreted? That's what the Word says- many times in fact.

 

Also OP brings up a good point. I need to do an in-depth study concerning what the Bible actually says about divorce. I know the basics and have several opinions, one being the Scripture that says "what GOD has joined together" …I believe that if God didn't put it together in the first place, God doesn't see it. It's a part of His permissive will, but not His perfect will.

 

OP, I believe that if I were to get married in the flesh and the marriage were to break up, it would be just another faction that God has in fact moved from my life in order to be in His perfect will. With this said, remarriage would be appropriate if in fact it was Gods perfect will.

 

To "shun" you concerning a past marriage issue is wrong IMO.

[Hope Shimmers]

Thanks for the post everyone. They make me think.

 

Again, this is not the policy of the WBTS as I understand it and as published on their official site. Perhaps you misinterpreted the interaction.

 

You keep saying that. Sorry, but I did not misinterpret anything. It was all very clear (except the rationale for it).

 

What I have found to be true, with my friend (who is an elder in the group, by the way) and with others who come to the door, is that they have their canned replies to questions but they refuse to 'debate'. If you ask them a question that in any way challenges their beliefs, their reply is that it is not up to us to question the Bible.

 

DKT3, I agree with you. (I just had to say that, since it's so rare that we agree ) And I agree with you pureinheart too, regarding the stance on a past marriage. Thanks again!

[123321]

You keep saying that. Sorry, but I did not misinterpret anything. It was all very clear (except the rationale for it).

 

The only policy that requires a person be shunned is for one who has been excommunicated; in order for that to happen one must first be a member, so again, you were not shunned. They may have concluded you were not serious about being taught and decided to spend their time elsewhere, however. That certainly happens and is certainly reasonable.

 

 

What I have found to be true, with my friend (who is an elder in the group, by the way) and with others who come to the door, is that they have their canned replies to questions but they refuse to 'debate'. If you ask them a question that in any way challenges their beliefs, their reply is that it is not up to us to question the Bible.

 

Well ya, they believe the Bible is definitive and are very serious about standing up to that standard.

[Hope Shimmers]

The only policy that requires a person be shunned is for one who has been excommunicated; in order for that to happen one must first be a member, so again, you were not shunned. They may have concluded you were not serious about being taught and decided to spend their time elsewhere, however. That certainly happens and is certainly reasonable.

 

Okay, then change the word 'shunned' (I get your point - that word is reserved for members) to something equivalent but different. The point is, I was told clearly that I would not be an acceptable member because of my divorced status.

 

Anyway, I wasn't trying to split hairs, which is what this is beginning to feel like - just trying to understand their rationale.

[taiko]

Okay, then change the word 'shunned' (I get your point - that word is reserved for members) to something equivalent but different. The point is, I was told clearly that I would not be an acceptable member because of my divorced status.

 

Anyway, I wasn't trying to split hairs, which is what this is beginning to feel like - just trying to understand their rationale.

 

And we are saying you must have misunderstood because it is not the divorce in itself that is a religious problem but a second marriage or being in open fornication (shacking up) which the Witnesses along with most fundamentalist churches will cause to pause. But they still will most likely find away around it, particularly for someone who had not accepted their faith before a second marriage. After all that basic concept of all previous sins (fornicating among them) being washed away upon conversion is Christianity 101

 

In any case in particular while others disagree with Witness theology it is the evangelistic tactics of going to the door and rules for members like never entering a non Witness House of Worship even to witness a friend or family members wedding or funeral which causes the most grief from non-theologians.