25 years and out?

[LoveMyCat]

I take your point in that unless *I* take responsibility for this choice now and forever, I'm setting it up to fail again. In terms of "freedom and responsibility"....... yes, we have that, but as a parent (and a spouse) you also have responsibilities that supersede our selfish desires.

 

Nothing wrong with going back...but you should be prepared that to find that the marriage part is no better. Not without work from both parties, anyway, but sometimes staying extra years for the kids is enough, if you both accept that.

[Crossroads66]

Oh ****, I just don't know.............. I'm second-guessing again. Why can't I just make a decision and go forward with it?? I hate this!!!

[KBarletta]

Oh ****, I just don't know.............. I'm second-guessing again. Why can't I just make a decision and go forward with it?? I hate this!!!

 

Seriously, if you're still questioning your decision, then you shouldn't go back yet. You need to be 100 percent committed to making this work or you need to stay away. If you go back half-assed, it will be no different than it was before and you will be back here in a few months talking about how you had to leave again.

[Crossroads66]

Seriously, if you're still questioning your decision, then you shouldn't go back yet. You need to be 100 percent committed to making this work or you need to stay away. If you go back half-assed, it will be no different than it was before and you will be back here in a few months talking about how you had to leave again.

Yeah. And then, to make being away work, I have to further distance myself from my wife, and resist her pleading. Which feels terrible, because (after 2008 at least) she has been the innocent party in all this.

[BlueIris]

Then stop going over there all the time. Send her a text that you’d like to set up a parenting time schedule and suggest certain times and dates that you’ll pick up the kids and ask what works for her and the kids’ schedules.

 

Tell her it’s over and you’re sorry for having caused her pain. Tell her that she deserves someone who loves and respects her, that you don’t want to leave your affair partner, that you’d like to work out a divorce settlement fairly and cooperatively. Get to a lawyer to draft up a petition for divorce.

 

You’re jerking them around.

[81West]

Oh ****, I just don't know.............. I'm second-guessing again. Why can't I just make a decision and go forward with it?? I hate this!!!

 

Ugh. I just wanted to say that I'm truly sorry for your situation. It must feel terrible to be emotionally yanked about on such an important decision. I read a quote once which was a much more eloquent version of something like "if you're not finished it's not over". It was in reference to making any decision, mulling any issue, or solving any conundrum. There is a peace and finality in any decision that is as right is as it can be that you haven't achieved yet. So maybe accept that you're just not quite done thinking. If you haven't yet achieved enough clarity maybe you need to pull all your thinking down and start fresh with a new approach. If it were me I would come at it as rationally as possible (probably easier for us than you) and list the issues and ruthlessly examine them for fears, biases, magical thinking, probable outcomes etc.

[Crossroads66]

Ugh. I just wanted to say that I'm truly sorry for your situation. It must feel terrible to be emotionally yanked about on such an important decision. I read a quote once which was a much more eloquent version of something like "if you're not finished it's not over". It was in reference to making any decision, mulling any issue, or solving any conundrum. There is a peace and finality in any decision that is as right is as it can be that you haven't achieved yet. So maybe accept that you're just not quite done thinking. If you haven't yet achieved enough clarity maybe you need to pull all your thinking down and start fresh with a new approach. If it were me I would come at it as rationally as possible (probably easier for us than you) and list the issues and ruthlessly examine them for fears, biases, magical thinking, probable outcomes etc.

Thanks! I have had little support - both online and off - for just how hard this situation is for me. That absence of empathy is understandable, as I brought all this on myself, behaved badly and hurt people close to me. BUT it doesn't change the present fact that the situation I find myself in now is very very difficult. In what world does a twice cheated-on wife (with money and resources, and support) almost literally beg her husband to give things another go?? So I either do this, and go back, or be the bad guy yet *again*.

[beach]

Why not stay living where you are- do net sieve individual therapy and find out how to be happy n your own first?

 

No wife - no AP while you go through this process.

 

Set some solid boundaries with your wife. Boundaries that don't allow her to beg and plead with you.

 

Be free from all influences for a long while and allow your head to clear enough to find out who you are and how to be happy.

 

 

Then after all that - you may find it easy to make a solid decision.

 

 

Going back so you're not the bad guy is for the wrong reason.

[Angies100]

If you are unsure about leaving then stay. Just be sure that you are committed to rebuild the relationship. Even if you are going end up back here again in 5 years time. At least the kids will have you for another 5 years. And there us a pretty good chance that you can work it out with your wife since both of you are committed.

 

Your wife must really really love you to forgive you twice. She must think that you are a good person who just made bad mistakes. I stayed 5 extra years in my marriage because I couldn't make up my mind. When I finally left I was 100% sure that that was the right decision.

[Crossroads66]

Your wife must really really love you to forgive you twice. She must think that you are a good person who just made bad mistakes. I stayed 5 extra years in my marriage because I couldn't make up my mind. When I finally left I was 100% sure that that was the right decision.

She does think I'm a good person who made mistakes. I, on the other hand think I was once a good person who became far less of one by being sucked into a pattern of bad behaviour through conflict avoidance and denial. The affairs I believe were a symptom of the problem rather than the problem itself.

 

Also........ 5 years....... yes this was pretty much the interval between my two affairs. The rub is that I never *truly* recommitted to the marriage after the first... so the house of cards was doomed to come tumbling down again.

[81West]

Thanks! I have had little support - both online and off - for just how hard this situation is for me. That absence of empathy is understandable, as I brought all this on myself, behaved badly and hurt people close to me. BUT it doesn't change the present fact that the situation I find myself in now is very very difficult. In what world does a twice cheated-on wife (with money and resources, and support) almost literally beg her husband to give things another go?? So I either do this, and go back, or be the bad guy yet *again*.

 

I think it's important to keep your wife human in all of this. You're keenly aware of your own faults and failings and it is unlikely she is completely blameless in every last one of your marriage struggles. I think it would be wiser to see her as a good person who loves you and is afraid of profound loss and change and who is using every tool at her disposal to hang on to her marriage and intact family, including guilt. Some of her motives will be as 'selfish' as yours are (read not that selfish on either side). Her hopes and wants matter very much but you need a clear eyed examination of whether you can truly fulfil them in a real and honest and sustainable way. Maybe you need to go back to figure that out, or maybe you can adequately envision the likely course of any reconciliation from here.

 

And I'd add that choices, like most other things, evolve. This could all be taken out of your hands. What if your wife got seriously ill tomorrow? You'd have to go back and be there for and with her in a way you wouldn't have had to had you drawn a sharper line months ago. Your hesitation and indecision has probably already effectively doomed your relationship with the other woman in the long run. There is a good chance she's already lost to you whether you both know it yet. Your wife too could experience an irreversible loss of esteem for you unexpected by anyone. This is not meant to nudge you in any one direction, just to remind you that choice is a gift that can be squandered.

 

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice".

~Neil Peart

[chew123]

Crossroads,

 

It is time to be an adult. I have only skimmed your thread but I see 2 affairs, mention of wearing a mask, thinking of your wife only as a friend. I also see that she does not know about the second affair.

 

You are obviously done. You are ruining everyone;s chances at happiness by hanging around. Yes it will be hard on your wife. Yes it will be hard on you as it should be. This is not an easy decision but it is time to make it.

 

I believe my wfe hung around for a while unhappy with a mask on. Then had an affair and left me for another partner. I sure wish she had just told me she was unhappy and left. the sooner the better. The affair just made things way worse for both of us.

 

The sooner you end it the sooner your wife can begin to move on. I don't know how old you are but the older you get the more limited her options to find a new partner who actually loves her will be. Be a man , make a decision and set both of you free.

[Crossroads66]

Crossroads,

 

It is time to be an adult. I have only skimmed your thread but I see 2 affairs, mention of wearing a mask, thinking of your wife only as a friend. I also see that she does not know about the second affair.

 

You are obviously done. You are ruining everyone;s chances at happiness by hanging around. Yes it will be hard on your wife. Yes it will be hard on you as it should be. This is not an easy decision but it is time to make it.

 

I believe my wfe hung around for a while unhappy with a mask on. Then had an affair and left me for another partner. I sure wish she had just told me she was unhappy and left. the sooner the better. The affair just made things way worse for both of us.

 

The sooner you end it the sooner your wife can begin to move on. I don't know how old you are but the older you get the more limited her options to find a new partner who actually loves her will be. Be a man , make a decision and set both of you free.

Thanks - she does know about the second affair; I confessed it in July 2014 and moved out a week later.

[Mr. Lucky]

She does think I'm a good person who made mistakes. I, on the other hand think I was once a good person who became far less of one by being sucked into a pattern of bad behaviour through conflict avoidance and denial. The affairs I believe were a symptom of the problem rather than the problem itself.

 

To be blunt, an awful lot of rationalization and self-justification there. You've consciously made bad choices that have been hurtful to people you profess to care about. And your failure to take responsibility for these acts - the affair is a symptom ? - allows you to destructively continue to string all the affected parties along.

 

I don't know what that set of actions is but it isn't love, nether of yourself nor of them...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Crossroads66]

To be blunt, an awful lot of rationalization and self-justification there. You've consciously made bad choices that have been hurtful to people you profess to care about. And your failure to take responsibility for these acts - the affair is a symptom ? - allows you to destructively continue to string all the affected parties along.

 

I don't know what that set of actions is but it isn't love, nether of yourself nor of them...

 

Mr. Lucky

Ouch. Not sure I agree though. Perhaps I need to be clearer.

 

Adultery is wrong, and it is never "justified" by what went on before. Yes, that is a bad thing I've done. But I think the *worse* crime was the years of problem avoidance, denial and lies that I told that led me to leave myself open to solutions outside the marriage.

 

We do hurt people we love; why I don't know, but I wouldn't be first.

[Majormisstep]

You need advice? Heck I have lots of that...it's a crying shame I can't take my own though. Anyhoo...

 

Why did you have the affairs? Likely to seek validation. Why? Because somewhere back in history you might not have been loved, valued or appreciated. Yes, your W does, but some "messed up" folks don't truly appreciate that kind of love. They want to seek and capture the unattainable. Once that has been achieved, boredom could set in an it's off to the next dragon to slay. One theory anyway.

 

Do you go back? Sure, but Crossroads, you are not going back to 100% make it work, to give WHATEVER it takes to ensure you and your W maintain a loving and comfortable existence until death do you part. You are going back because she is begging you and the kids want their dad full time. And it is your manly duty to do so. That is not reason enough to go back to the marital home. Why? Because those old issues that got you here have not been resolved and they will eventually resurface. Sooner than later.

 

When you can look at yourself in the mirror (either first thing in the morning or last thing in the evening..whenever you are most unsure) and say with 100% conviction; I am going back and will do whatever it takes to make our M a success story which will make me a happy man, then you know you are ready to return.

 

Now where did I put all my self-help books...MMS needs some serious advice ;-)

[Mr. Lucky]

Adultery is wrong, and it is never "justified" by what went on before. Yes, that is a bad thing I've done. But I think the *worse* crime was the years of problem avoidance, denial and lies that I told that led me to leave myself open to solutions outside the marriage.

 

Crossroads, if I walked up to you and punched you in the face, would you care why?

 

In your current situation, the reasons matter only to you. Don't confuse thought and action, one of them has much more effect on the real world...

 

Mr. Lucky

[beach]

Why do you think your M will just magically get better when you go back?

 

You're still that same person and your wife is still that same person - and the M made you miserable before...

 

Why would it be a happy union now when neither one of you have significantly changed?

[Crossroads66]

Why do you think your M will just magically get better when you go back?

 

You're still that same person and your wife is still that same person - and the M made you miserable before...

 

Why would it be a happy union now when neither one of you have significantly changed?

I know, I know. The only reason I'm in agony is because my W is a lovely, giving person who I mean the world to. As do I to my kids, and my kids to me. It all *ought* to be enough. But I've always wanted different. I've always bit my tongue because of it. And therefore I've behaved badly. Might it be different?? I don't know. In 25 years I've never truly given my marriage everything because I've never truly wanted to be in it. So maybe if I just mentally took the plunge.......... (?)

[Crossroads66]

Crossroads, if I walked up to you and punched you in the face, would you care why?

 

In your current situation, the reasons matter only to you. Don't confuse thought and action, one of them has much more effect on the real world...

 

Mr. Lucky

Point taken.

 

Can I take this moment to thank absolutely everyone who has taken the time to help me. There's some great stuff here. It's truly helpful and I appreciate it very much.

[beach]

I know, I know. The only reason I'm in agony is because my W is a lovely, giving person who I mean the world to. As do I to my kids, and my kids to me. It all *ought* to be enough. But I've always wanted different. I've always bit my tongue because of it. And therefore I've behaved badly. Might it be different?? I don't know. In 25 years I've never truly given my marriage everything because I've never truly wanted to be in it. So maybe if I just mentally took the plunge.......... (?)

 

If you aren't "in" the marriage for genuine reasons then what's the point? To pretend? That's not the intent of marriage...

[BlueIris]

Thanks Beach

 

It would mean

1. Returning home, and announcing I'm here to stay. Have a family talk encouraging honesty, respect, and sharing feelings.

2. Get through the first painful couple of weeks when I'd be missing the AP like hell. This is actually what scares me the most.

3. Give wife full access to phone, computer etc.

4. Go into counseling. I think counseling - in terms of seeking clarity and insight is often fairly useless, but it does at least provide a safe environment to share feelings and problems.

5. Behave well. Do nothing I wouldn't do with my wife standing there.

 

You can do # 2, 4, and 5 on your own, without moving back into the marital home, so do that before putting your wife and children through the turmoil again. That way you can see if you can do those without pressure.

 

It looks as though you’ve been living in an apartment since July, so about 6 months. It also looks as though the only time you are spending with your kids (or most of it) is when you go to the marital home.

 

Your kids are thrilled to see you, because all kids want to see their parents and fear abandonment. Start having regular and reliable parenting time (with your 7 year old especially- very vulnerable- but also with the teenagers), outside the marital home so that they KNOW that you will see them, love them and spend time with them even if you don’t live there. Until you do that, you can’t really tell if they want you to “come home” or whether they just don’t want to feel abandoned- and they can’t tell either, and your wife can’t tell either. See, for 6 months now, they’ve associated seeing their dad (not being “abandoned”) with dad “coming back.” Change that and the “pressure” from the kids will probably change. The “pressure” from your wife might also change.

 

Is your apartment suitable and ready for your children to visit or stay overnight? Do you live alone there, or do you live with someone else too? Is there room for the kids and places for them to sleep?

 

If you (1) end your affair and get over missing your AP, (2) go into individual counseling, (3) start doing “nothing you wouldn't do with your wife standing there,” and (4) start seeing your children so they don’t fear abandonment, I bet you will be able to decide. And your kids and wife will benefit too, and might stop “pressuring” you. If this is too daunting to do on your own, start the individual counseling so you have help and support making the changes.

Edited January 9, 2015 by BlueIris

[81West]

I've been thinking about this a lot. This situation is exceptionally difficult because it is a clash of competing principles which are all equally important. Fulfilling your obligations selflessly, acknowledging, facing and fixing mistakes and living an honest and authentic life. The latter is not just new age blather - there is no version of physical, emotional or psychological health that can flow from being a refugee in your own soul. Your inner voice has been trying to tell you something for 25 years. Maybe the mistake you need to acknowledge and fix most is marrying the wrong person then and living dishonestly since. It's a hell of a thing to face, a hell of a thing to unravel and live the consequences of. It would take extraordinary courage to leave your wife and slowly, painstakingly, patiently remake your role as active and present father and supportive ex-husband. It would be rocky and imperfect and uncertain and sometimes terrible. But what else can you expect, what else have you earned really after perpetuating this for so long? I don't mean that negatively or critically. I just mean that the guilt and angst you are feeling now is predictable and a product of the compounding of a mistake. Carrying it is just going to be part of this, whatever happens.

Edited January 9, 2015 by 81West
Clarified thoughts

[Crossroads66]

I've been thinking about this a lot. This situation is exceptionally difficult because it is a clash of competing principles which are all equally important. Fulfilling your obligations selflessly, acknowledging, facing and fixing mistakes and living an honest and authentic life. The latter is not just new age blather - there is no version of physical, emotional or psychological health that can flow from being a refugee in your own soul.

Thanks for your thoughts and brilliant insightful post 81West. You can add to your list of competing principles "being a good Christian". I am one (albeit not a good one). The bible is not exactly a resounding proponent of divorce. But then living an honest life is a strong Christian principle also.

[Crossroads66]

You can do # 2, 4, and 5 on your own, without moving back into the marital home, so do that before putting your wife and children through the turmoil again. That way you can see if you can do those without pressure.

 

It looks as though you’ve been living in an apartment since July, so about 6 months. It also looks as though the only time you are spending with your kids (or most of it) is when you go to the marital home.

 

Your kids are thrilled to see you, because all kids want to see their parents and fear abandonment. Start having regular and reliable parenting time (with your 7 year old especially- very vulnerable- but also with the teenagers), outside the marital home so that they KNOW that you will see them, love them and spend time with them even if you don’t live there. Until you do that, you can’t really tell if they want you to “come home” or whether they just don’t want to feel abandoned- and they can’t tell either, and your wife can’t tell either. See, for 6 months now, they’ve associated seeing their dad (not being “abandoned”) with dad “coming back.” Change that and the “pressure” from the kids will probably change. The “pressure” from your wife might also change.

 

Is your apartment suitable and ready for your children to visit or stay overnight? Do you live alone there, or do you live with someone else too? Is there room for the kids and places for them to sleep?

 

If you (1) end your affair and get over missing your AP, (2) go into individual counseling, (3) start doing “nothing you wouldn't do with your wife standing there,” and (4) start seeing your children so they don’t fear abandonment, I bet you will be able to decide. And your kids and wife will benefit too, and might stop “pressuring” you. If this is too daunting to do on your own, start the individual counseling so you have help and support making the changes.

Thanks BlueIris. Yes, this is one of the problems. My apartment is suitable enough to have the two youngest kids, and I've tried, but they don't want to come here. They say it depresses them. I can't really force the 14 year old...... the 9 year old, perhaps.. I do live alone here, my AP comes around from time to time.

 

In terms of ending my affair......... I feel like I just don't want to do this if my marriage is over anyway. Perhaps every man in my situation sees their AP in this way, I don't know. But it's been over a year now.... we still enjoy each other's company. We feel in love. We've had disagreements, and they get resolved with clear and open communication, even when it's difficult. Exactly the sort of thing I haven't been doing the last 25 years!!