Actually, the OW does owe me something....

[purplesorrow]

The ow in my situation did apologize. She said she could acknowledge the part she played in my hurt and pain. It didn't really make any difference to me. I mean do you really say 'sorry' for helping to destroy someone's family? What does sorry do for having to start over at 41? Getting to see your baby for only 50% of the time? Re-establishing a new normal? Her 'sorry' didn't change any of that. It didn't un**** my husband and it didn't stop my heart from breaking. It mostly annoyed me because if she would have really understood my pain she would have seen how insulting that 'sorry' would feel.

[Hope Shimmers]

The ow in my situation did apologize. She said she could acknowledge the part she played in my hurt and pain. It didn't really make any difference to me. I mean do you really say 'sorry' for helping to destroy someone's family? What does sorry do for having to start over at 41? Getting to see your baby for only 50% of the time? Re-establishing a new normal? Her 'sorry' didn't change any of that. It didn't un**** my husband and it didn't stop my heart from breaking. It mostly annoyed me because if she would have really understood my pain she would have seen how insulting that 'sorry' would feel.

 

So apologizing is what she should do according to most people, but now you are saying it's just insulting.

 

No matter whether the OW apologizes or not, she can't win.

[Speakingofwhich]

I never felt OW to ex H or OW to ex fiance owed me anything.

 

H dumped OW and married OW2 he got with (while we were separated) after dumping OW.

 

Fiance married OW.

 

I was devastated beyond words when H left me.

 

Was painful when fiance left me, but nothing like it was when H left me.

 

I never spent much time thinking about either OW. All the emotion was toward ex H and my ex fiance and it was pain more than anger or bitterness that I felt.

 

Both ex H and ex fiance married and subsequently divorced their OWs. After ex H divorced OW2 she apologized to me and asked me to forgive her.

 

I am now friends of a sort with both OW2 (and exW) to ex H and OW (and exW) to ex fiance. They're not in my inner circle but if I see them when out and about we chat for ten or twenty minutes just to catch up on life happenings. Although I have little in common with either, we share a kind of bond since I was with both of their ex husbands before they were!

 

The anger that some BS's seem to have toward OW just doesn't resonate with me. Please don't misconstrue that as my being pious. It's no effort not to be angry with them as, for me, it was all on my ex H and my ex fiance that the cheating happened.

 

And I've forgiven both ex H and ex fiance. Once in a great while I see ex fiance and we chat to catch up on things but ex H is very uncomfortable seeing me so we don't chat at all.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Speakingofwhich

[peaksandvalleys]

OW in my situation no longer owes me anything. I took what she owed and then some. She probably should have kept moving instead of stopping in my life.

[Hope Shimmers]

I think that the OW is equally as culpable as the MM in terms of making a bad decision that hurts others. However, the MM is the one who violated the vows - not the OW.

 

To say that the OW is equally culpable as the MM is just denial. She did not violate vows - he did. That is SO much more terrible than an OW who did not respect the rights of another human being by being with a MM. However, remember, lots of MM lie, and many of them lie to the OW and say that they are leaving the M, etc.

 

I agree - the OW has a responsibility to treat other human beings with respect. However, that is not even in the same ballpark as the promises and vows that the MM took when he married his BS.

[purplesorrow]

So apologizing is what she should do according to most people, but now you are saying it's just insulting.

 

No matter whether the OW apologizes or not, she can't win.

 

Win what?? I didn't know her, she didn't know me. She didn't care about me what was 'sorry' supposed to do? I feel no Ill will towards her, but I do feel her apology was for her. Really can you say sorry for having sex with someone's husband?

[Furious]

I have no interest in an apology from the ex-married women.

 

Facts speak for themselves.

 

If anything I feel bad for her ex-husband, who divorced her. She hurt him more than she hurt me.

 

I hope he's ok, last time we spoke he was so kind and heartbroken. Said he would be shutting down his heart and would never trust or love again.

 

So sad...

[Hope Shimmers]

Win what?? I didn't know her, she didn't know me. She didn't care about me what was 'sorry' supposed to do? I feel no Ill will towards her, but I do feel her apology was for her. Really can you say sorry for having sex with someone's husband?

 

"You can't win" is a common expression, purplesorrow. Not meant literally.

 

My point was only that this OW apologized to you, which was probably hard for her, and this is the result, so I hear what you're saying and will not listen anymore to other BSs who think that apologies are deserved. It's better to just leave it alone, given this result.

[Hope Shimmers]

I have no interest in an apology from the ex-married women.

 

Facts speak for themselves.

 

If anything I feel bad for her ex-husband, who divorced her. She hurt him more than she hurt me.

 

I hope he's ok, last time we spoke he was so kind and heartbroken. Said he would be shutting down his heart and would never trust or love again.

 

So sad...

 

That is sad.

 

He has the right idea though. Marriages are all about abuse in my experience, and men are all about lies. It's far better to be alone.

[fellini]

Did he ever respond?

 

What you said is so on the money.

 

I don't know if I will ever be that brave because I believe I will either get no response or get what some have mentioned above: blamed for what happened. Although I would shoot back at her: So then you are to blame for your husband cheating twice on you and having children with both of those women.

 

No, no I wasn't expecting a response. I just needed to get those sentiments out. I was VERY CLEAR that I held my WS responsible for the affair. But I was just as clear that he had a role to play. He had a choice to walk away, or to convince her that she needed to end her marriage before he would have anything to do with her. He did none of these things, he enabled and nurtured her actions which he knew were hurtful, were going to cause her and I and our daughter, whom he knew well about, even her age, and he knew because of the whole mess, that doing this under the noses of other faculty professors, and him being a Vice dean, that none of these things made sense for him to participate.

 

I don't expect an answer, what I hope is he conducts himself differently the next time a married woman presents herself and her body for his amusement.

[cocorico]

She owes me something as a fellow woman.

 

I don't know you as an individual, nor do I know what R you had with the OW, so I can't comment on the specifics of whether or not your H's OW owed you respect.

 

But in my case, I did not owe the BW anything. I did not owe her respect as a "fellow woman" because I do not believe that I owe others "respect" or anything else simply because we share a gender, a skin colour, a nationality, or any other accident of birth. I give respect where it is earned, and where people do things I find abhorrent, it loses them any respect I may have offered. The BW in my case definitely fell into the latter category, so the level of respect I may have offered to a homeless person on the street would be far greater than any she warranted.

 

While I might summon some pity for her because of her emotional issues and her unhappy childhood, her attitude toward and treatment of others, especially those she claimed to care for, renders her totally unworthy of respect, IMO. So, I do not believe that an OW automatically owes a BW any respect, although in some situations there may well be an argument to be made that, in that particular case, it was warranted.

[gettingstronger]

I have to disagree cocorico that just because we don't know someone we owe them nothing and that respect is earned. Civil societies are built on the notion of mutual respect. Although I wanted nothing from our ow but to be left alone both she and my husband were disrespectful to me as a human and it's just wrong. We can not inflict hurt on each other as people and then brush it away with, I didn't owe them anything because I didn't know them. That's not how things should work.

[tornapart2002]

So she deserved to be cheated on? Not to have been divorced or given decency? She deserved to be humiliated and you wer te one to doll out her punishment? And who made you judge and jury and God..someone who can make the decision whether or not to make sure a person suffers?

 

I don't know you as an individual, nor do I know what R you had with the OW, so I can't comment on the specifics of whether or not your H's OW owed you respect.

 

But in my case, I did not owe the BW anything. I did not owe her respect as a "fellow woman" because I do not believe that I owe others "respect" or anything else simply because we share a gender, a skin colour, a nationality, or any other accident of birth. I give respect where it is earned, and where people do things I find abhorrent, it loses them any respect I may have offered. The BW in my case definitely fell into the latter category, so the level of respect I may have offered to a homeless person on the street would be far greater than any she warranted.

 

While I might summon some pity for her because of her emotional issues and her unhappy childhood, her attitude toward and treatment of others, especially those she claimed to care for, renders her totally unworthy of respect, IMO. So, I do not believe that an OW automatically owes a BW any respect, although in some situations there may well be an argument to be made that, in that particular case, it was warranted.

[purplesorrow]

"You can't win" is a common expression, purplesorrow. Not meant literally.

 

My point was only that this OW apologized to you, which was probably hard for her, and this is the result, so I hear what you're saying and will not listen anymore to other BSs who think that apologies are deserved. It's better to just leave it alone, given this result.

 

I'm not speaking for anyone's situation but my own. Why would my feelings cause you to disregard others? I don't know how other bs feel and I don't speak for them. The ow in my case didn't want to be exposed nor sued so she decided to play nice.

[fellini]

I think that the OW is equally as culpable as the MM in terms of making a bad decision that hurts others. However, the MM is the one who violated the vows - not the OW.

 

To say that the OW is equally culpable as the MM is just denial. She did not violate vows - he did. That is SO much more terrible than an OW who did not respect the rights of another human being by being with a MM. However, remember, lots of MM lie, and many of them lie to the OW and say that they are leaving the M, etc.

 

I agree - the OW has a responsibility to treat other human beings with respect. However, that is not even in the same ballpark as the promises and vows that the MM took when he married his BS.

 

I disagree completely. First of all, while it is true that a WS can lie to the AP about the current situation in a marriage, the current situation about the sex life of the marriage etc., this is not the issue. When an AP (Married or not) the responsibility is social. The promises that two humans make in a marriage are a private matter. It is between those two people. But the responsibility of engaging in an office affair, for example, or an affair in a close community, is completely social and extends well beyond the individual couple. So I disagree that they can be compared (in the same park) they are in entirely different spheres (one public, the other private).

 

I can divorce my wife (or not) because she had a workplace affair. But what can I do to the AP? I get no choice. And his using his workplace position, his access to my WS in terms of intimacy that comes from the job place (lunches, coffees, visiting offices, after hours social gatherings, committee meetings, conference travel, etc.) these are all being abused by the AP in order for him and her to engage in their affair. There is nothing I can do about this workplace issue, and my WS spends at least half her life in that place.

 

I think it's possible to sometimes underestimate how much damage the AP's are doing in terms of workplace safety, security, and ethics in terms of affairs. It makes sense to me to hear that some workplaces have a policy of automatic dismissal if employees are having affairs from their workplace contacts.

 

Vows (I mean, actual vows) I don't understand the focus on them as something at all. For me marriage is a commitment that has nothing to do with the specific vows. My marriage is not built on the vows, it is built on the interpersonal commitments my spouse and I "negotiated" during our pre marital relationship, and is an ongoing negotiation as we mature in our love, as we extend out family, and as we are able to create out of our own developing interests. The vows are not the be all and end all of a marriage. I am more locked into the "understoods" in a marriage. And the one thing I understood, was she would not step out and either fall in love, or screw another man while in a relationship of any kind with me.

[TheBladeRunner]

I so get what you're saying OP, I so get it. My WXW was wrapped up with a guy that worked in a different part of the state, they met because her job required they talk every day.

 

This guy knew she was married

 

This guy knew we had kids

 

This guy knew it all......yet he continued to pursue her.

 

The way I was raised I have always known to never "mess with another persons picnic" yet this clown did it anyway. This went on for 9 months before DDay, and although it was an EA to start with, after DDay it went to a PA. Funny thing is that right after it went PA, he broke it off with her because he said he couldn't be in a relationship.....go figure.

[Furious]

I read it all the time on forums and on blog posts and articles about infidelity. "You should be mad at your husband, not the other woman. he is the one who broke his vow to you, she owes you nothing."

 

Um..I'm sorry what?

 

Yes. Oh yes, I have every right to be angry at him and I have been, but that does not mean I will excuse her for her part in it, especially in my case.

 

I hear this too: "maybe she didn't even know he was married...poor thing."

 

Um...I'm sorry what?

 

Not in my case. she knew he was married. She knows who I am. She commented on photos of my kid. She messaged me once. She knew who I was and who he was but she didn't care. In her case she wanted to get her husband back for having a child with another woman while OW was married to him. Not only that but he slept with a teenager and got her pregnant too. She went after my husband to make herself feel better. Am I saying my husband is innocent? Hell no. He's a pussy who let this woman use him not once but twice. She'd used him years ago as well to get back at a boyfriend. My husband is an idiot. He knows it. I know it.

 

And I am angry at him and he knows that. I wanted to leave him and he knows that. He asked me to give him a chance and I am doing that.

 

So why does this woman who made no promises to be that she broke owe me anyhing? She owes me something as a fellow woman. Not just as a fellow woman but as a woman who was made to feel as shedid once -- as a non-entity- a non-person. When a woman engages in an affair with a married man and I don't care if that man begged her too, she is disrespecting the wife. She is disrespecting the wife's right to have a say.

 

In my case, this woman was cheated on at least twice by her husband. Yet she had no problem doing the same to me that those women did to her. Now she tells everyone she is the victim and how she can't believe someone as special as her would be treated in such a poor way.

 

Her husband abandoned her (he's a horrible man and for that I actually do feel sorry for her), and now she is left alone to raise their children. Am I happy? No. I don't want her to suffer. I just want her to realize, someday, that she did to me what was done to her. That she's currently doing it again to another wife (yes, she is having another affair with another married man). And I want her to realize she owes me some damn respect and a damn apology -- in a different way than my husband does. It took me a long time to decide that I do deserve respect.

 

*preface to the following statement, I am not saying I am perfect or better than anyone!*

 

I have never been a perfect wife, but I have been one who has been loyal and faithful and dedicated to the promise I made to my husband, even when he wasn't. And even if I wasn't a loyal person, or even if I wasn't "perfect" (no one is, obviously) I did not deserve to be deceived and lied to and trashed.

 

And honestly? Neither did she..no matter how bad she hurt me and others.

 

And honestly, neither did any of you, no matter what you did in your marriage -- you may have deserved to be divorced, but not to be cheated on.

 

 

For those that do whatever they want to get what they want, it's a futile endeavour to explain to them the concept of integrity and empathy.

 

These types of folks are self involved, trying to explain humanity and the concept of respect for thy neighbour, just goes over their heads.

 

It's enlightening that many affair partners feel that they are the good person.

 

Sure there are many marriages that are dysfunctional.

 

There's a couple I know that I can honestly say his wife is a bitch. The thing is I have no interest in becoming her husbands affair partner to save him from that woman. If he were come on to me, I would be insulted. I do not find cowardly men attractive.

 

Many OW place themselves as the saviour. Which is a whole other topic.

 

Don't hold your breath for an apology, instead just be realistically objective.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Furious

[peaksandvalleys]

I think that the OW is equally as culpable as the MM in terms of making a bad decision that hurts others. However, the MM is the one who violated the vows - not the OW.

 

To say that the OW is equally culpable as the MM is just denial. She did not violate vows - he did. That is SO much more terrible than an OW who did not respect the rights of another human being by being with a MM. However, remember, lots of MM lie, and many of them lie to the OW and say that they are leaving the M, etc.

 

I agree - the OW has a responsibility to treat other human beings with respect. However, that is not even in the same ballpark as the promises and vows that the MM took when he married his BS.

 

 

 

You can call it whatever you want to call it. I am not in denial nor do I think she owes me anything pertaining to marital vows. What she owed me in my opinion was the decency that she would have desired (and begged) for herself and her family. She didn't want her family hurt, her children disappointed or her image stained. Yet she had no problems with participating with helping to visit those things on my family, my children or my reputations. I don't know what you consider acceptable "or even in the ballpark" but I get to decide what is in the ball park for me.

[Hope Shimmers]

I disagree completely. First of all, while it is true that a WS can lie to the AP about the current situation in a marriage, the current situation about the sex life of the marriage etc., this is not the issue. When an AP (Married or not) the responsibility is social. The promises that two humans make in a marriage are a private matter. It is between those two people. But the responsibility of engaging in an office affair, for example, or an affair in a close community, is completely social and extends well beyond the individual couple. So I disagree that they can be compared (in the same park) they are in entirely different spheres (one public, the other private).

 

I can divorce my wife (or not) because she had a workplace affair. But what can I do to the AP? I get no choice. And his using his workplace position, his access to my WS in terms of intimacy that comes from the job place (lunches, coffees, visiting offices, after hours social gatherings, committee meetings, conference travel, etc.) these are all being abused by the AP in order for him and her to engage in their affair. There is nothing I can do about this workplace issue, and my WS spends at least half her life in that place.

 

I think it's possible to sometimes underestimate how much damage the AP's are doing in terms of workplace safety, security, and ethics in terms of affairs. It makes sense to me to hear that some workplaces have a policy of automatic dismissal if employees are having affairs from their workplace contacts.

 

Vows (I mean, actual vows) I don't understand the focus on them as something at all. For me marriage is a commitment that has nothing to do with the specific vows. My marriage is not built on the vows, it is built on the interpersonal commitments my spouse and I "negotiated" during our pre marital relationship, and is an ongoing negotiation as we mature in our love, as we extend out family, and as we are able to create out of our own developing interests. The vows are not the be all and end all of a marriage. I am more locked into the "understoods" in a marriage. And the one thing I understood, was she would not step out and either fall in love, or screw another man while in a relationship of any kind with me.

 

I read this several times and I have no idea what your paragraphs about social community and workplace abuse of privileges have to do with this topic at all. Sorry.

 

As for vows vs commitment, then swap my use of the word 'vows' for the word 'commitment'. The point is exactly the same. The WH (in your case the WW) is the one who broke the vow, the commitment, the promises, whatever word you want to use to represent the loyalty, honor, and trust that is supposed to be part of a marriage.

[Hope Shimmers]

You can call it whatever you want to call it. I am not in denial nor do I think she owes me anything pertaining to marital vows. What she owed me in my opinion was the decency that she would have desired (and begged) for herself and her family. She didn't want her family hurt, her children disappointed or her image stained. Yet she had no problems with participating with helping to visit those things on my family, my children or my reputations. I don't know what you consider acceptable "or even in the ballpark" but I get to decide what is in the ball park for me.

 

My post was not about you peaksandvalleys, it was just in general how I feel about it, more in reply to a couple of other posts in the thread. Of course you get to decide. I never said that you didn't, and I in fact agree with you. She owed you an apology (at least).

[gettingstronger]

Ballpark? Both my husband and our OW were equally crappy people during the affair. He is working on changing, her...it doesn't appear so but who knows. Don't fool yourself into thinking just because you are single that you're not being a crappy person by being in an affair.

[Hope Shimmers]

Ballpark? Both my husband and our OW were equally crappy people during the affair. He is working on changing, her...it doesn't appear so but who knows. Don't fool yourself into thinking just because you are single that you're not being a crappy person by being in an affair.

 

I don't know if this is referring to me or not, but since you said 'ballpark' I'm guessing you are referring to my post.

 

I have no idea why you would think I (or anyone) said that a single person isn't doing a crappy thing by having an affair. It seems lots of words are being put into my mouth in this thread. What I said was that the single person didn't break marital vows (or commitments or promises or whatever word you like) to a spouse, and if everything that all of you are saying is true about how important those are to a marriage, the breaking of those should be a much bigger deal to the BS than the "crappy" AP.

[HermioneG]

Ballpark? Both my husband and our OW were equally crappy people during the affair. He is working on changing, her...it doesn't appear so but who knows. Don't fool yourself into thinking just because you are single that you're not being a crappy person by being in an affair.

 

Yup.

 

My spouse's OW has been a single OW multiple times.

 

She has responsibility in the wake of messes she leaves.

[lilmisscantbewrong]

I did sit down with his wife after the second dday (actually there was tons of interaction between the first and second dday) - but it was upon her request that we met - she wanted to see me - it was tearful and hard for both of us. I did apologize. She then kept texting me afterwards saying she was praying for me - I finally told her to stop - it didn't help my healing.

 

Xmom never faced my husband and that is something I think that my husband always wonders about - recently he said "xmom was my friend". It was sad.

 

With my husbands affair I never had a desire to talk with his xmow - I did see her this past Christmas in the grocery store. We politely said hi to each other and kept moving. I have compassion for her - probably because I had been in her shoes - but I know she was in love with my husband and he didn't choose her. She was hurt - I get that.

 

We just had a very tearful conversation today. We don't really talk about it much anymore going on five years now since my affair, but there is a weird situation with a graduation party which we were invited to that happens to be at xmom's mother in laws house. The discussion was whether to go or not. She is being very gracious and saying we are welcome in her home. But it is sad that we are even having this conversation - if I hadn't made such a bonehead decision iit wouldn't even be a concern. Amazing how our choices can affect things years down the road.

 

Affairs suck.

Edited May 11, 2014 by lilmisscantbewrong

[AlwaysGrowing]

"You can't win" is a common expression, purplesorrow. Not meant literally.

 

My point was only that this OW apologized to you, which was probably hard for her, and this is the result, so I hear what you're saying and will not listen anymore to other BSs who think that apologies are deserved. It's better to just leave it alone, given this result.

 

I understand your point, however I am of the mindset that what someone does/feels about an apology I give is not for me to determine nor is it the point of an apology. An apology is something that I owe for my actions/words not what another deserves.