Actually, the OW does owe me something....

[HermioneG]

I would hate to live in a society where it is okay to treat other poorly just because I haven't personally met them.

 

Human beings- no matter what, deserve kindness and not to be purposely harmed and deceived.

 

By everyone they encounter, and not just the person they were married to.

 

Anything else is just obfuscation and rationalization. There are no secret or more enlightened societies that make this okay. It is wrong to harm other people. It is wrong to participate in the destruction of a family. It's even wrong to come on a message board such as this and claim that the people who object to this harm are somehow too sensitive or picking on people.

 

In an affair- the wayward spouse and the affair partner ( if they know of the spouse) are both guilty of harm. No one walks through life without touching or affecting others by their actions. Affair partners are guilty. So are waywards. Argue the percentages if you wish. But there's culpability.

[Fluttershy]

I tend to agree with this. If it wasn't that AP, it would have been a different one. But I say that as someone who hasn't dealt with this first hand.

 

This is simply not always true.

[cozycottagelg]

This is simply not always true.

 

If someone wants to cheat, they will. They will go looking for it. If they are not looking for it, they could still be "wooed" easily...but it's still about what THEY want. Nobody can make you cheat. They can make it easy..but they can't make you.

 

What are your thoughts. I am very open minded.

 

I do agree that OW/OM should be held accountable. I'm just not sure how much.

 

And again...not something I have dealt with so I am certainly not an expert or even that knowledgeable

[waterwoman]

OW owes me nothing. Not one darn thing. I used to beleive that human being owe each other considerate and reasonable treatment but clearly she didn't so I guess that is something else we don't have in common.

 

Conversely I owe her nothing in return. Wish I had realised that before I spent so many months agonising over her situation and feeling bad for her. What a sucker.

[Sub]

If someone wants to cheat, they will. They will go looking for it. If they are not looking for it, they could still be "wooed" easily...but it's still about what THEY want. Nobody can make you cheat. They can make it easy..but they can't make you.

 

What are your thoughts. I am very open minded.

 

I do agree that OW/OM should be held accountable. I'm just not sure how much.

 

And again...not something I have dealt with so I am certainly not an expert or even that knowledgeable

 

If I might chime in....I definitely agree that people can be "wooed" into having an A. Obviously each case is separate with its own set of circumstances. But if someone's at a tipping point in their attachment to their current spouse, and the potential OW/OM wants them, I'm sure they can sense it and take advantage of that vulnerability. OW/OM have their own set of wants and needs that they're trying to fulfill, so it only stands to reason that they'd try to do so when an opportunity arises. I don't think, however, that we can make the generalization that if it weren't for one OW/OM, it would be another. Too many variables in play, IMO.

[snappytomcat]

If I might chime in....I definitely agree that people can be "wooed" into having an A. Obviously each case is separate with its own set of circumstances. But if someone's at a tipping point in their attachment to their current spouse, and the potential OW/OM wants them, I'm sure they can sense it and take advantage of that vulnerability. OW/OM have their own set of wants and needs that they're trying to fulfill, so it only stands to reason that they'd try to do so when an opportunity arises. I don't think, however, that we can make the generalization that if it weren't for one OW/OM, it would be another. Too many variables in play, IMO.

sub,i agree with with what you said here

[BHsigh]

I don't know you as an individual, nor do I know what R you had with the OW, so I can't comment on the specifics of whether or not your H's OW owed you respect.

 

But in my case, I did not owe the BW anything. I did not owe her respect as a "fellow woman" because I do not believe that I owe others "respect" or anything else simply because we share a gender, a skin colour, a nationality, or any other accident of birth. I give respect where it is earned, and where people do things I find abhorrent, it loses them any respect I may have offered. The BW in my case definitely fell into the latter category, so the level of respect I may have offered to a homeless person on the street would be far greater than any she warranted.

 

While I might summon some pity for her because of her emotional issues and her unhappy childhood, her attitude toward and treatment of others, especially those she claimed to care for, renders her totally unworthy of respect, IMO. So, I do not believe that an OW automatically owes a BW any respect, although in some situations there may well be an argument to be made that, in that particular case, it was warranted.

 

So it would be OK for us here to have no respect for you whatsoever? Because you participated in an act that many people, BS's or not, find abhorrent.

 

Does that sound good to you?

[Betrayed&Stayed]

If someone wants to cheat, they will. They will go looking for it. If they are not looking for it, they could still be "wooed" easily...but it's still about what THEY want. Nobody can make you cheat. They can make it easy..but they can't make you.

 

What are your thoughts. I am very open minded.

 

I do agree that OW/OM should be held accountable. I'm just not sure how much.

 

And again...not something I have dealt with so I am certainly not an expert or even that knowledgeable

 

It is my experience that most WS do not go looking for an A. In fact, most would have said months earlier that they would NEVER cheat.

 

IME and my friends that have gone through As, the WS enters into the A slowly. It is a series of small compromises. It is moving the boundaries inch by inch until it is too late. Each poor decision that erodes the boundaries may look benign on their own, but in the grand scheme of things it all progresses towards a full-blown A. It's cliche, but a frog in boiling water is good analogy.

 

I do hold the OM culpable for his involvement. He knew my wife was married. He knew it was wrong. He made his choices to invade my marriage. He could've said "I'm not comfortable being this close to a married woman." He was a young, single, good-looking guy. He had other more honorable options for dating/sex. His choices had foreseeable consequences, and I hold him accountable for his choices/actions.

[tornapart2002]

I sooooo agree...I wish I had realized it sooner too.

 

OW owes me nothing. Not one darn thing. I used to beleive that human being owe each other considerate and reasonable treatment but clearly she didn't so I guess that is something else we don't have in common.

 

Conversely I owe her nothing in return. Wish I had realised that before I spent so many months agonising over her situation and feeling bad for her. What a sucker.

[Fluttershy]

If someone wants to cheat, they will. They will go looking for it. If they are not looking for it, they could still be "wooed" easily...but it's still about what THEY want. Nobody can make you cheat. They can make it easy..but they can't make you.

 

What are your thoughts. I am very open minded.

 

I do agree that OW/OM should be held accountable. I'm just not sure how much.

 

And again...not something I have dealt with so I am certainly not an expert or even that knowledgeable

 

I would say it has been answered by others. But it really is in the details an the difference between a seriel cheater or someone looking for an affair and slippery slope of friendship or even wrong place wrong time. There is also the fact that "chemistry" for some people does not always occur with any and every ready for action person. Then there is the marriage. While I am of the unpopular opinion here that some affairs do occur out of seriously dysfunctional marriages (and it isn't always the WS fault the marriage is dysfunctional... They just hoose poorly when they nuke it with the ABomb) many affairs occur out of good marriages but the person may have got themselves in a bad place. Then the A destroys the marriage or starts to.

 

Stories are to varied for the thought "if not him/her than someone else". Unless the person is trolling for an AP or has a history of cheating that just isn't something that can be known.

 

I see people who focus too much and too long on the AP. but, I think when you are freshly betrayed their is more than enough anger to be upset with the "hussy" who inserted or let herself e inserted into your marriage and still have plenty unleashed on the spouse.

 

I think the careless and callous views given by some AP to be frankly just sad. And I think the line "I didn't break the wedding vows". To show a lack of common courtesy for another human being.

[tornapart2002]

I actually think the woman tried to send me an apology of sorts on a social media platform last night. The words "It was never meant to happen" sent me over the edge. So maybe everyone is right...maybe an apology from her will NEVER mean **** to me.

 

She chased my husband for three years. I'm not being over dramatic. I'm notkidding. I'm not excusing my husband. She seriously texted him, wrote him, called him repeatedly for 3 years. At first he was annoyed, then apparently, at the right time, when i was battling illness after illness, he decided I no longer loved him because I was fighting for my life and not meeting his needs so he took her up on all her offers to be that missing piece for him.

 

I remember one night waking up and gasping for air and I tried to call for him. Guess who wasn't there. And another night when our son had an asthma attackfor the 18th time one week and I was sobbing and holding him during a treatment and my husband wouldn't pick up his phone because he was "at work." Those are the memories that are so hard to get over. Even thogh my husband has beenthere for us since DDay and has tried his hardest to make all that up...there are days I think...is that even possible? I truly do not know.

 

But this is all my gut reaction, while I am in the midst of struggling to reconcile with the fact my life is in the ****ter after I fought so hard to make it a good one, always being nice and sweet andunderstanding and forgiving and a good Christian girl (got me soooooooo far in life..just look at me...face it, good people get **** on). When I calm down and stop crying I just may appreciate the effort...no matter how late it came.

[James-London]

Hey OP,

Well, I can certainly feel the emotion in your words. I think its natural to try to intellectualise our emotions. We all do it all the time. However, I'm afraid its just not true that this OW owes you anything. I'm sure this has been said over the last 6 pages, and apologies if I am repeating what others have already said.

 

IMO, people owe you something if they have a relationship with you, like a friend or family member. I really don't buy the idea that someone owes you something as another member of the human species or because they share your gender. In terms of moral arguments about what people owe you - well, the short answer is: they don't really count for anything. Even if someone did have a moral obligation to you, people in the real world always behave more like the animals we all evolved from rather than honourable, ethical people. People hurt each other all the time by being dishonest, selfish or just plain scared. Its rarely about people being "evil", and if it was - it wouldn't even matter anyway.

 

But that is not to say that your H was is not responsible for what he did. Trust me, he was not somehow tricked or beguiled into cheating on you. Unless he has serious mental disabilities, he was able to make his own choices about what he did. But the only person who owed you something was your H. And it sounds like you don't really trust (or respect) him anymore. May be worth considering whether giving him another chance is the right thing to do.

 

On a more personal note, I was in therapy for a good 6 months after my ex cheated on me. To say it wrecked my entire world would be an understatement. It was only recently that I realised why it was so hard for me to get over what was really a totally ridiculous and hopeless relationship.... I was really, really lonely and didn't have much else going on in my life. I have since been reaching out to other people and getting emotional support from them. This has really helped me to see the relationship in a more objective way and to realise that my feelings of attachment were more about my loneliness than anything else.

 

Hope that helps,

 

James.

[tornapart2002]

I wrote some choice things on my social media site to her and then deleted it all and the account. Nothing good will ever come of that and I know it! And I should not be commenting when my emotions are so raw and messed up right now.

[tornapart2002]

I know you mean well, but again, I disagree. SOmeone who sticks their nose into your personal business and therefore puts herself into your marriage and your family does ****ing owe you an apology for her attempt to destroy your marriage so she can feel better about her own failed marriage. Therefore the OM in your situation owes you a ****ing apology too.

 

Still, all else you have said is much appreciated. I do not mean to disrespect your opinion and perhaps when I think on it more and calm down a bit ;-) I will agree. I do truly appreciate you commenting and trying to help. I mean that sincerely. sometimes i read back over things later and take a lot more from what was said when my head is clearer.

 

Hey OP,

Well, I can certainly feel the emotion in your words. I think its natural to try to intellectualise our emotions. We all do it all the time. However, I'm afraid its just not true that this OW owes you anything. I'm sure this has been said over the last 6 pages, and apologies if I am repeating what others have already said.

 

IMO, people owe you something if they have a relationship with you, like a friend or family member. I really don't buy the idea that someone owes you something as another member of the human species or because they share your gender. In terms of moral arguments about what people owe you - well, the short answer is: they don't really count for anything. Even if someone did have a moral obligation to you, people in the real world always behave more like the animals we all evolved from rather than honourable, ethical people. People hurt each other all the time by being dishonest, selfish or just plain scared. Its rarely about people being "evil", and if it was - it wouldn't even matter anyway.

 

But that is not to say that your H was is not responsible for what he did. Trust me, he was not somehow tricked or beguiled into cheating on you. Unless he has serious mental disabilities, he was able to make his own choices about what he did. But the only person who owed you something was your H. And it sounds like you don't really trust (or respect) him anymore. May be worth considering whether giving him another chance is the right thing to do.

 

On a more personal note, I was in therapy for a good 6 months after my ex cheated on me. To say it wrecked my entire world would be an understatement. It was only recently that I realised why it was so hard for me to get over what was really a totally ridiculous and hopeless relationship.... I was really, really lonely and didn't have much else going on in my life. I have since been reaching out to other people and getting emotional support from them. This has really helped me to see the relationship in a more objective way and to realise that my feelings of attachment were more about my loneliness than anything else.

 

Hope that helps,

 

James.

[KathyM]

I think the OW/OM definately does owe the BS an apology for their actions in the affair. I think people do owe other human beings basic decency and basic respect. For the same reason a person doesn't go around throwing rocks at people's cars or go around punching people, out of respect for the rights of others, they shouldn't go around trying to damage/destroy a person's marriage/family. Of course, the latter would be much more harmful, but the point being that people do owe others basic respect and not to harm others or their families. The OW/OM may have not made a vow of fidelity, but they are certainly causing the WS to break his vow. Their actions are harming an unsuspecting person and their family, and for that, they are certainly accountable and should be held accountable. They owed the BS basic decency and respect, and instead caused great harm to the BS and her/his family.

[Furious]

I had hired a PI when I suspected something. I learned more about her than my husband even knew.

 

I had no interest in an apology from her. A few weeks after my d-day I made the agonizing decsion to contact her husband, and sent him proof.

 

Ironically, she called me, and was angry and said I had no right to interfere in her life.

 

Yeah, she owed me nothing, as I owed her nothing.

 

Hypocritical, that she could sleep with my husband but it was wrong for me to give her husband the truth.

[snappytomcat]

I had hired a PI when I suspected something. I learned more about her than my husband even knew.

 

I had no interest in an apology from her. A few weeks after my d-day I made the agonizing decsion to contact her husband, and sent him proof.

 

Ironically, she called me, and was angry and said I had no right to interfere in her life.

 

Yeah, she owed me nothing, as I owed her nothing.

 

Hypocritical, that she could sleep with my husband but it was wrong for me to give her husband the truth.

what nerve,to actually say you had no right to interfere in her life,omg!what a biotch

[James-London]

Hey there Tornapart,

 

Its funny - just writing the name you chose for this site reminds me of the state I was in for the best part of a year.... I feel I can really empathise with your pain right now, especially the anger and injustice of it all. I have often wondered how I might react if I ever saw the OM in the street one day.

 

We could get into a whole philosophical debate about what exactly one person owes to another. I would agree with you 1000% that this awful woman behaved in a selfish, hurtful and disgusting way. I also understand that it makes it worse that SHE KNEW your H was married and had a family with you. I obviously cannot know what this woman's motives were, but I really doubt she did it just to hurt you and destroy your marriage. You never did anything to hurt her - it sounds like you hardly even knew her, right? You seem to say that she was looking for a marriage to wreck as a way of "getting back at the world" after she had infidelity in her own relationship. Well, maybe. But if that is true, I think that would be a really weird, twisted (and to be honest - unlikely) motivation.....

 

My intuition here (and again I cannot claim to know for sure) is that this woman just did not care whether she was wrecking your marriage or not. She was not out to "get you" - you, your marriage and your family just did not enter into the equation. I think she just saw your H, wanted him, and acted purely in her own self-interests. Maybe she did not even want your H so much but she just felt lonely/had her own issues, I don't know.

 

I guess my main point here is that it does not really matter whether whether she owes you any moral duties or not. Even if I agree that you are right, what then? You cannot compel her to apologise, and even if you could it would never be genuine.... And even if (by some miracle) it was a genuine apology, would that really fix anything? The real damage here is between you and your H and no apologies from her can fix that.

 

I'm afraid that people in this world will usually put their own interests before those of someone they do not even know. For example, someone would not turn down a job offer just because one of the other applicants really needed the job more. People look after themselves and the small number of people they choose to love. All we can do is not expect anything from the people we do not know, and hope that the people close to us will return the love and respect we give to them.

 

On a more personal note, I have spent a lot of time reflecting upon my own experience. I now have much clearer ideas about what I deserve in a relationship and what is important to me in a partner. After my awful experience, I am sure I will see the red flags of when there are problems in a relationship, and I am more aware of how I can be better at loving another person.... I know it is awful for you now. But, you should know that you will come out of this. And when you do, you will be considerably wiser and stronger for it.

 

best,

 

James.

[HermioneG]

Hey OP,

Well, I can certainly feel the emotion in your words. I think its natural to try to intellectualise our emotions. We all do it all the time. However, I'm afraid its just not true that this OW owes you anything. I'm sure this has been said over the last 6 pages, and apologies if I am repeating what others have already said.

 

IMO, people owe you something if they have a relationship with you, like a friend or family member. I really don't buy the idea that someone owes you something as another member of the human species or because they share your gender. In terms of moral arguments about what people owe you - well, the short answer is: they don't really count for anything. Even if someone did have a moral obligation to you, people in the real world always behave more like the animals we all evolved from rather than honourable, ethical people. People hurt each other all the time by being dishonest, selfish or just plain scared. Its rarely about people being "evil", and if it was - it wouldn't even matter anyway.

 

But that is not to say that your H was is not responsible for what he did. Trust me, he was not somehow tricked or beguiled into cheating on you. Unless he has serious mental disabilities, he was able to make his own choices about what he did. But the only person who owed you something was your H. And it sounds like you don't really trust (or respect) him anymore. May be worth considering whether giving him another chance is the right thing to do.

 

On a more personal note, I was in therapy for a good 6 months after my ex cheated on me. To say it wrecked my entire world would be an understatement. It was only recently that I realised why it was so hard for me to get over what was really a totally ridiculous and hopeless relationship.... I was really, really lonely and didn't have much else going on in my life. I have since been reaching out to other people and getting emotional support from them. This has really helped me to see the relationship in a more objective way and to realise that my feelings of attachment were more about my loneliness than anything else.

 

Hope that helps,

 

James.

 

 

So. To clarify.

 

If I run up and kick you really hard in the shin, so hard it causes you to fall down, I don't have to ever apologize, and I did not need to refrain from doing it, because I don't personally know you?

 

Sweet.

 

I can steal your money from your wallet, and not feel bad, not apologize, because hey, you're a fellow human being, but I don't know you.

 

See where I am going with this?

 

There's a big world out there, and a big picture. I cannot comprehend the idea of not feeling a responsibility towards other people- whether or not I know them. My imperative as a human is to try and harm no one.

[James-London]

Hermione,

 

You misunderstand what I say. I think the OM/OW should apologise - of course they should. What I said above, is that we should not hold out for an apology. Sure we deserve an apology but this OW would not care. In this situation, the OW took OP's man because she thought he might be a good partner for her. Or maybe she just needed to feel good about herself. I don't know. But she did it because she was selfish and it met her own needs.... This OW would never be genuinely sorry for putting her needs before someone else's needs.

 

Most people who also say that that they would aim to not hurt anybody else. And you are right that people do not randomly kick other people or steal from them. But people will very quickly forget about what someone else needs/deserves when this conflicts with their own selfish interests. Using your examples, people might well kick you if they felt scared you would attack first. And they might well steal your cash if they had no money and felt hungry. There are many places in the world where there are no effective criminal sanctions for such behaviour, and this is EXACTLY how people behave all the time.

 

Does that make it right? No. Do I agree with it? No. But that does not matter. We cannot spend our lives expecting people we don't know to be honourable. In fact, that is the whole point of building relationships with people. When you build a relationship with someone, you can have some expectation that they will treat you fairly and respectfully. That is exactly the reason why infidelity hurts so much. You would not care if the OM/OW slept with someone else. But you do care when your partner cheats, because that is the one you built a trusting relationship with.

[Sub]

We cannot spend our lives expecting people we don't know to be honourable.

 

Very well said.

[HermioneG]

Hermione,

 

You misunderstand what I say. I think the OM/OW should apologise - of course they should. What I said above, is that we should not hold out for an apology. Sure we deserve an apology but this OW would not care. In this situation, the OW took OP's man because she thought he might be a good partner for her. Or maybe she just needed to feel good about herself. I don't know. But she did it because she was selfish and it met her own needs.... This OW would never be genuinely sorry for putting her needs before someone else's needs.

 

Most people who also say that that they would aim to not hurt anybody else. And you are right that people do not randomly kick other people or steal from them. But people will very quickly forget about what someone else needs/deserves when this conflicts with their own selfish interests. Using your examples, people might well kick you if they felt scared you would attack first. And they might well steal your cash if they had no money and felt hungry. There are many places in the world where there are no effective criminal sanctions for such behaviour, and this is EXACTLY how people behave all the time.

 

Does that make it right? No. Do I agree with it? No. But that does not matter. We cannot spend our lives expecting people we don't know to be honourable. In fact, that is the whole point of building relationships with people. When you build a relationship with someone, you can have some expectation that they will treat you fairly and respectfully. That is exactly the reason why infidelity hurts so much. You would not care if the OM/OW slept with someone else. But you do care when your partner cheats, because that is the one you built a trusting relationship with.

 

I did not misunderstand you at all.

 

If the OW/OM slept with an unattached person, I would not care. I do care, in all cases, when people hurt other people. I cared greatly when two of my best friends were cheated on. I was upset with their husbands and the affair partners. Of course I was. I am not a special snowflake who only gets upset if something happens to me. Wrong is wrong. Across the board. I actually don't understand only caring about something if it happens just to me. It seems such a small way to view the world.

 

And I would prefer to live my life with the expectation that people will choose to do the right thing, and that people will choose not to harm others.

 

Am I disappointed sometimes? Yes. But I see no need to lower my expectations because some people behave poorly.

Edited May 13, 2014 by HermioneG

[James-London]

well, we all hurt other people all the time. It is just that in some situations it is seen as legitimate.

 

Would you *always* give money to a stranger who claimed they needed it? Would you turn down an offer for your dream job if you found out another candidate was in a financial crisis and needed the job more than you? Would you leave your boy/girlfriend if you found out that someone else also was interested?

 

I think it is clear that people will inevitably be in competition and conflict with each other. It is therefore inevitable that some people will come out on top, and other people will get hurt. So, I just don't think it is black and white that people getting hurt is always morally wrong.

 

In relation to the infidelity, its a similar situation. If the WS is really in love with the OM/OW, should they remain forever attached in a miserable relationship with the BS? If the OM/OW genuinely loves the BS, why should then not try to be happy with them?

 

The problem I have with infidelity is that it is so dishonest and it betrays the trust of the WS/BS. If the BS wants to be with someone else - fine. But then they should leave before anything happens and just be honest about it. Unfortunately, that rarely happens.

[ladydesigner]

well, we all hurt other people all the time. It is just that in some situations it is seen as legitimate.

 

Would you *always* give money to a stranger who claimed they needed it? Would you turn down an offer for your dream job if you found out another candidate was in a financial crisis and needed the job more than you? Would you leave your boy/girlfriend if you found out that someone else also was interested?

 

I think it is clear that people will inevitably be in competition and conflict with each other. It is therefore inevitable that some people will come out on top, and other people will get hurt. So, I just don't think it is black and white that people getting hurt is always morally wrong.

 

In relation to the infidelity, its a similar situation. If the WS is really in love with the OM/OW, should they remain forever attached in a miserable relationship with the BS? If the OM/OW genuinely loves the BS, why should then not try to be happy with them?

 

The problem I have with infidelity is that it is so dishonest and it betrays the trust of the WS/BS. If the BS wants to be with someone else - fine. But then they should leave before anything happens and just be honest about it. Unfortunately, that rarely happens.

 

While I understand the bolded I don't understand why infidelity is chosen over D. Infidelity is a really sh*tty way of handling marital conflict and if the WS never allowed the OW/OM into their life then they would not know if they are in love with them.

[HermioneG]

well, we all hurt other people all the time. It is just that in some situations it is seen as legitimate.

 

Would you *always* give money to a stranger who claimed they needed it? Would you turn down an offer for your dream job if you found out another candidate was in a financial crisis and needed the job more than you? Would you leave your boy/girlfriend if you found out that someone else also was interested?

 

I think it is clear that people will inevitably be in competition and conflict with each other. It is therefore inevitable that some people will come out on top, and other people will get hurt. So, I just don't think it is black and white that people getting hurt is always morally wrong.

 

In relation to the infidelity, its a similar situation. If the WS is really in love with the OM/OW, should they remain forever attached in a miserable relationship with the BS? If the OM/OW genuinely loves the BS, why should then not try to be happy with them?

 

The problem I have with infidelity is that it is so dishonest and it betrays the trust of the WS/BS. If the BS wants to be with someone else - fine. But then they should leave before anything happens and just be honest about it. Unfortunately, that rarely happens.

 

Infidelity is rarely a marital problem. It's a personal problem with the wayward.

 

So of course they don't leave first. It isn't about the marriage.

 

( for reference, check Glass, Pittman, Fisher)

 

As for the rest of your comments, we view the world very differently. And that's okay. I will never ever do anything on purpose that involves the deceit of another human being. Being more qualified for a job is not even in the same league as the harmful things I was speaking about before, but I would suspect you know that.