Actually, the OW does owe me something....

[BHsigh]

I was commenting that not every AP goes to "such great lengths" to keep the A a secret. Some are pretty open about it. Thus, the claim that they must be aware that they are "causing harm", is moot.

 

Because they are open about it, they aren't aware that they are causing harm?What?? If the BS knows that it's happening and allows it, then it's not an affair, if the BS doesn't know, then it is being hidden from them.

 

Wants and intents don't matter, actions matter. They may not have intended to hurt the BS, but they still did.

[Fluttershy]

My H's xMW doesn't care about the fact she hurt me. She has no empathy for the feelings of others and takes what she wants when she wants it. If called out on behaviour she places the blame on others forover reacting or in my case saying it was my husband that did wrong to me not her. No remorse and from all outward signs, no guilt either.

 

Whatever helps her sleep at night I guess but here she is in yet another affair. Gleefuly stomping on someone else's heart.

 

I wish he would change herself and improve but unless someone actually thinks their actions are destructive, harmful to others and toxic they will twist words and remain willfulu ignorant to the feelings for others.

 

Sometimes I wish I believed in a judging god so that at least I could know there would be some sort of karma or wake up call that would snap selfish people out of their selfish state. But I don't and therefore knowing human nature I know there will always be people who justify poor behaviour and take what they want with no remorse.

 

But I will never encourage it or condone it.

[purplesorrow]

I was commenting that not every AP goes to "such great lengths" to keep the A a secret. Some are pretty open about it. Thus, the claim that they must be aware that they are "causing harm", is moot.

 

Aware, just don't care.

[cocorico]

Because they are open about it, they aren't aware that they are causing harm?What?? If the BS knows that it's happening and allows it, then it's not an affair, if the BS doesn't know, then it is being hidden from them.

 

That is a non sequitur. It is perfectly possible for people not to know things that are not hidden from them. I do not know my son's GF's favourite colour, but this is not hidden from me. If I wanted to know, I could ask her. Or read her FB wall. Or ask my son.

 

Wants and intents don't matter, actions matter. They may not have intended to hurt the BS, but they still did.

 

Not every BS is hurt by an A, nor is every R damaged by an A, and sometimes even if the M or the BS is negatively impacted by the A, those negative impacts are outweighed by the positive gains for many other people. If you believe that an action can be judged good or bad in terms of its impact - whether it created more good for more people or more bad for more people - then an action whose impact is overwhelmingly good - creating lots of good for many people, and only a little bad for a single person - is still overwhelmingly a good action. Some As fit this mould. So sweeping statements universalising *all As*'as one thing or another simply don't hold.

[BHsigh]

That is a non sequitur. It is perfectly possible for people not to know things that are not hidden from them. I do not know my son's GF's favourite colour, but this is not hidden from me. If I wanted to know, I could ask her. Or read her FB wall. Or ask my son.

 

That is sure some strange logic right there, comparing having an affair to someone's favorite color.

 

If a situation affects someone, and there is no easy way for them to find out, and no one tells them, then yes it is indeed being hidden from them.

 

Using your example, say one of your friends (but you don't know which one), came to your house and took your son and dropped him off somewhere without you knowing, then that friend came over and hung out with you, knowing that you would be frightened about your son being gone, and this friend never said anything to you, even after you had suspicions that he was missing, would you consider that to be hiding information from you? Or do you have to directly ask your friend if she took your son somewhere before you consider it hiding information?

 

 

 

Not every BS is hurt by an A, nor is every R damaged by an A, and sometimes even if the M or the BS is negatively impacted by the A, those negative impacts are outweighed by the positive gains for many other people. If you believe that an action can be judged good or bad in terms of its impact - whether it created more good for more people or more bad for more people - then an action whose impact is overwhelmingly good - creating lots of good for many people, and only a little bad for a single person - is still overwhelmingly a good action. Some As fit this mould. So sweeping statements universalising *all As*'as one thing or another simply don't hold.

 

Narcissism at its finest.

 

Let's say we obliterate a few countries to reduce our environmental impact, those people would lose everything, but then the rest of the world would only gain, and by your judgement this would be a good action, correct?

 

My neighbor is a single older woman, can I take her land to benefit my family of four? Her car? She doesn't need them as much as we do, there are four of us.

[veritas lux mea]

I don't owe her anything. I chose to apologize not because I owed it to her but because when I do something wrong and regret it all I can do is apologize. She didn't accept my apology but because I wasn't trying to win brownie points it didn't matter. She isn't a very nice person or happy and that is her choice.

[cocorico]

That is sure some strange logic right there, comparing having an affair to someone's favorite color.

 

If a situation affects someone, and there is no easy way for them to find out, and no one tells them, then yes it is indeed being hidden from them.

 

Using your example, say one of your friends (but you don't know which one), came to your house and took your son and dropped him off somewhere without you knowing, then that friend came over and hung out with you, knowing that you would be frightened about your son being gone, and this friend never said anything to you, even after you had suspicions that he was missing, would you consider that to be hiding information from you? Or do you have to directly ask your friend if she took your son somewhere before you consider it hiding information?

 

For that to be comparable to the RL A situation, the son would have to agree to go with the friend - or even suggest it to the friend that he go with her; they'd have to hang out publicly with mutual friends, and have everyone know where he was being dropped off; our extended family would know where he was, even of I didn't, and after some time of my not noticing he was missing, I'd be told he was missing but I'd choose not to believe it, insisting he'd never go off with anyone else.,

 

The information would be readily available to me, in my face, even told directly to me - but I would choose to deny it, were the situations to be strictly analogous.

 

 

Let's say we obliterate a few countries to reduce our environmental impact, those people would lose everything, but then the rest of the world would only gain, and by your judgement this would be a good action, correct?

 

This isn't much different from what's happening already.

 

My neighbor is a single older woman, can I take her land to benefit my family of four? Her car? She doesn't need them as much as we do, there are four of us.

 

You'd need to look at the situation holistically. If you stole her stuff, would your actions impact positively or negatively on others beside her and your family? What about her heirs, her extended family, the homeless shelter who stood to inherit? What about your neighbours, and how they felt about security of land / property in a climate which fostered anarchic redistribution? How about your own family - if you got carted off to prison for theft, how would they feel? Etc. it's not a simple consideration.

[veritas lux mea]

Let me get this straight. Affairs are okay if in the end the only person hurt is the BS and everyone else is happy?

 

I think people at times over react to infidelity, I really do. But I also think people under react and make up some crazy crap justifications. I think people in horrid marriages should leave because it is better to have your kids 1/2 time than to participate in an affair and potentialy cause a bomb to go off in their home because no one knows the outcome. And I think all single people should stay away from romantic relationships with taken people for their own sake because they don't know the outcome. And I certainly never will agree with saying an affair was a good or right choice even if in the end things worked out. I would say they worked out despite the affair. There is more than one path to a good ending. I think everyone should choose the better path.

[KaliLove]

I was commenting that not every AP goes to "such great lengths" to keep the A a secret. Some are pretty open about it. Thus, the claim that they must be aware that they are "causing harm", is moot.

 

Open about it to whom? To the wives of their MM? Because those are the people they are harming, so therefore those are the only people who deserve openness.

[Sub]

You'd need to look at the situation holistically. If you stole her stuff, would your actions impact positively or negatively on others beside her and your family? What about her heirs, her extended family, the homeless shelter who stood to inherit? What about your neighbours, and how they felt about security of land / property in a climate which fostered anarchic redistribution? How about your own family - if you got carted off to prison for theft, how would they feel? Etc. it's not a simple consideration.

 

Definitely not simple. But I think it's important when considering the "greater good" argument to ask if the action was necessary to get to that point. Was that action the only way to go, or were there better options to get to the desired end? In the case of a vast majority of A's, IMO, there was a better option. Definitely a healthier and more honest one. Are there exceptions? As with everything, probably yes. But if we're truly taking into consideration what would end up doing the most good for the most people, I can't see how an A does this. Collateral damage doesn't HAVE to occur. It can be minimized.

[somedude81]

My previous post was posted in the wrong thread. Please ignore it.

[tornapart2002]

Not every AP does.

 

So...they don't know sleeping with a married man is wrong? Wow....I'd like to go through life that way. It'd be awesome. Just choosing for myself what is right and wrong. Cool.

[James-London]

well, i'm impressed you managed to take her back. or maybe I should feel disappointed on your behalf, I don't know.

 

i was really desperate to give her another chance. But she pretty much made it impossible for me. She was saying she loved me and that she "chose me" over him. And she started to make an effort in being more affectionate. All that was great, but it did not really prove a serious commitment on her behalf.

 

What was primarily missing was honesty. I also experienced the "trickle truth" you referred to. Except for me, she did not volunteer any information - she only admitted the minimum possible information when I stumbled upon unequivocal evidence. Also, she never really took full responsibility for what she did. She preferred to just pretend it never happened and bury her head in the sand. She also seemed to think that her cheating was a mutual problem that we had to deal with as a couple. I told her this was nonsense - her cheating was 100% her fault and it was totally undeserved. If she wanted another chance, she had to prove she deserved it. In the end, she did remove the OM from her Facebook account (although only after considerable delay and resistance) and she did book a couples therapy session, but again only after 5 months of me asking her to do this.

 

I have to be honest - if she immediately threw the other guy out of her life and went on her knees to beg for me back, I probably would have given her another chance. However, she just did not do enough (frankly - hardly anything) to prove she deserved another chance.

 

What particularly grates for me is how she kept on telling me how much she loved me, when she could not even be honest. Even after she knew it was over between us (so she no longer had any reason to hide the truth), I still subsequently found out new information about her cheating.... It would have been so much easier if she just said that she did not love me and she wanted to be with someone else. This would be upsetting, but I could cope with that. The issue for me was that she said she loved me and wanted to be with me but her behaviour was inconsistent with this.

 

I don't know if this parallels with your situation. But if it does - I don't know how you could possibly trust her. Particularly as she still has access to this other guy. If I were in your shoes I would be asking what she has actually invested, committed and sacrificed to make you feel confident that you are the only guy in her life.... And I would probably be spying on her too. But that's just me!

 

 

 

Yes, I agree. It's true, of course, that a wayward can point to bad things in the marriage that "justifies" their thinking they are entitled to an A. I'm sure you are right that when a marriage isn't great, it increases the chances of one partner being vulnerable (I would use this word over "seeking" definitely) to connecting with a co-worker or "friend" more so than if they were happy. This is I think without an debate. As humans, when something in our lives is not going the way we think it should, our emotions are unstable and we are more vulnerable to positive feelings we might get from those we even have known and felt nothing, but suddenly.... feel them in a different light.

 

But I have also witnessed how a wandering wife can suddenly repaint the canvas of her marriage in order to explain what she knows is completely inexplicable: doing what neither she nor the 10 closest people to her could imagine, and step out of the marriage for a little fun.

 

And I think in these kinds of cases the "reasons" are like you say, impossible to nail down, because as the infatuation (with its own logic of "I know my limits) turns to EA ("this guy seems to really understand me") to PA ("I need the intimacy of sex to complement this incredible feeling Im getting") becomes a LTR ("I'm not giving this guy up for anything") I think the "reasons" are going to change through the entire process.

 

One thing is for certain though: before anything was even "cooking" my wife was hiding this guy from me from the beginning. 1.5 years of hiding. I knew about this "guy" but he was always on the peripheral. Of course when she told me on DDay she was "seeing someone" (funny way to talk about another man to your husband, like you were a teenager talking to your dad) I knew instantly who it was. Everything suddenly made sense.

 

In my case she was pretty much at this point shifting into exit affair, and I pretty much think she was expecting me to do the BS job of divorce for her. (Proving of course that the AP was perfect for her and that she wasn't doing anything wrong, just the way she went about doing it). But it didn't work that way. And she did do the WS remorse thing for the most part, a lot of trickle truthing, and only recently, past 1year DDay, when I said to her, "I think sometimes you still entertain the idea that you threw your future happiness under the bus", she tells me yes, but also she is sure that she did the right thing by returning to the marriage. Im beginning to think this means she is still living in a split self: The RIGHT thing to do is stay married, THE Emotional thing to do was to move forward with the AP. It's been a year of NC, even though they continue to work in the same Faculty, but there is still that lingering doubt in my mind about if it is really, deep down over, and not just on pause.

 

I will need to find a way to discuss this with her because if she senses that the answer to the question is a deal breaker, then I already know how well she lies about her feelings.

 

PFFF. Sorry, went off the line a little there!

[James-London]

tornapart,

by the way - apologies for ranting on about this. I know this is your thread - I got carried away. I will not post another long one all about my issues. If I do, I'll start a fresh thread.... Fellini, feel free to PM me, if you wish. Thanks. James.

 

So...they don't know sleeping with a married man is wrong? Wow....I'd like to go through life that way. It'd be awesome. Just choosing for myself what is right and wrong. Cool.

[tornapart2002]

I am being smart and I think I know what you meant by the comment so don't take this comment too seriously. In other words, please don't yell at me.

 

So...they don't know sleeping with a married man is wrong? Wow....I'd like to go through life that way. It'd be awesome. Just choosing for myself what is right and wrong. Cool.

[gettingstronger]

That does not negate my statement. I did say that a handful of religious fundamentalist places had laws against infidelity.

 

 

Actually, the quote was "apart from......" Its an interesting opinion that Colorado with legalized recreational MJ and gay marriage would be considered a fundamentalist place- I bring that up because it relates back to this thread in that there was some debate about getting rid of some of our older laws-it was the opinion of a group of legislators that Colorado is a do no harm kind of place and that infidelity is harmful to families- the law stayed while others were repealed-

[BHsigh]

For that to be comparable to the RL A situation, the son would have to agree to go with the friend - or even suggest it to the friend that he go with her; they'd have to hang out publicly with mutual friends, and have everyone know where he was being dropped off; our extended family would know where he was, even of I didn't, and after some time of my not noticing he was missing, I'd be told he was missing but I'd choose not to believe it, insisting he'd never go off with anyone else.,

 

The information would be readily available to me, in my face, even told directly to me - but I would choose to deny it, were the situations to be strictly analogous.

 

 

 

 

This isn't much different from what's happening already.

 

 

 

You'd need to look at the situation holistically. If you stole her stuff, would your actions impact positively or negatively on others beside her and your family? What about her heirs, her extended family, the homeless shelter who stood to inherit? What about your neighbours, and how they felt about security of land / property in a climate which fostered anarchic redistribution? How about your own family - if you got carted off to prison for theft, how would they feel? Etc. it's not a simple consideration.

 

So that's what you think, that the BS chooses not to see the truth. Believe me, I for one did not choose to not see my wife's affair, I tried confronting her and him, asking mutual friends, I tried everything in my power to find out. She used your logic afterwards by saying that they weren't trying to hide it either, my simple answer was to ask why the lied when I confronted them multiple times.

 

Again, you're judging the majority like the minority, because your situation happened to be in the minority. In the majority of cases, the WS doesn't leave the BS when finally caught.

 

Just because your husband's ex was what sounds like a very horrible person and you feel in the right in your situation doesn't make all BS's horrible people and all AP's good people.

[BHsigh]

 

 

 

This isn't much different from what's happening already.

 

 

 

You'd need to look at the situation holistically. If you stole her stuff, would your actions impact positively or negatively on others beside her and your family? What about her heirs, her extended family, the homeless shelter who stood to inherit? What about your neighbours, and how they felt about security of land / property in a climate which fostered anarchic redistribution? How about your own family - if you got carted off to prison for theft, how would they feel? Etc. it's not a simple consideration.

 

It may be happening now, but does that make it right?

 

And I agree that it's not a simple consideration, which was my whole point, because you made it sound like it was when compared with an affair. Do you ever stop to think about everyone that could possibly be affected when defending someone's affair?

 

Just to be clear, you've already explained your situation well, and none of my statements are aimed at your situation, so don't take any of this as an attack against your relationship.

[beatcuff]

i'm confused...

 

so instead of an A. H declares D then the next day has a "GF" that's ok?

 

if so the BS lost their martyrdom and are simply a failure.

[cocorico]

So that's what you think, that the BS chooses not to see the truth. Believe me, I for one did not choose to not see my wife's affair, I tried confronting her and him, asking mutual friends, I tried everything in my power to find out. She used your logic afterwards by saying that they weren't trying to hide it either, my simple answer was to ask why the lied when I confronted them multiple times.

 

Again, you're judging the majority like the minority, because your situation happened to be in the minority. In the majority of cases, the WS doesn't leave the BS when finally caught.

 

Just because your husband's ex was what sounds like a very horrible person and you feel in the right in your situation doesn't make all BS's horrible people and all AP's good people.

 

Oh, not at all! I apologise if you think that that was what I was suggesting. I have always argued that As are all different, and that what applies in one situation cannot uncritically be applied in another - which was really the point of my earlier post on this thread, to show that assumptions about what *all* As are like simply don't hold.

 

I do feel that some OWs do owe the BW "something" - be that an apology after the fact, or the upholding of a personal promise to their BFF not to meddle with her BF, or the respecting of an extended incest taboo which says you should not have sex with the partners of your siblings, or whatever pertains to the nature and specific as of the pre-existing R between OW and BW (or, mutatis mutandis, OM and BH). I don't believe that *no* OW ever owes the BW anything. But neither do I believe the OW _always_ owes the BW something, either. I think it depends in each case on the specifics of the situation.

[cocorico]

It may be happening now, but does that make it right?

 

Depends who you ask. Those on the receiving end will almost definitely say no, while those on the "inflicting" end will feel justified in their action - because they need to be.

 

And I agree that it's not a simple consideration, which was my whole point, because you made it sound like it was when compared with an affair. Do you ever stop to think about everyone that could possibly be affected when defending someone's affair?

 

Again, I apologise if I created that impression. My argument has always been the reverse - that these situations are anything but simplistic, and require careful case-by-case consideration rather than bland black-and-white pronouncements.

 

I'm not in the habit of "defending" anyone's A, but nor am I in the habit of whole scale condemnation. Rather, I will read what someone has presented about their situation, and then engage with that. Sometimes I will support their decision to continue their A, sometimes I will caution against it because of concerns they present, but either way I will base my view on the specifics that they have presented.

[Owl]

I was commenting that not every AP goes to "such great lengths" to keep the A a secret. Some are pretty open about it. Thus, the claim that they must be aware that they are "causing harm", is moot.

 

Non-sequiter.

 

They may know very well that they're causing harm, and yet still remain open about it.

 

They simply don't CARE that they're causing harm in that case.

 

It doesn't follow that those who are open about it aren't causing harm, nor aren't aware that they're causing harm.

[cocorico]

Non-sequiter.

 

They may know very well that they're causing harm, and yet still remain open about it.

 

They simply don't CARE that they're causing harm in that case.

 

It doesn't follow that those who are open about it aren't causing harm, nor aren't aware that they're causing harm.

 

How s it a non sequitur?

 

The post I quoted claimed that APs know the A is causing harm, which is why they keep the A secret.

 

I countered that, since not all APs do keep the A secret, the assertion that they *must* know the A causes harm, is contestable.

 

How is that a non sequitur?

 

I certainly did not claim that "those who are open about it aren't causing harm, nor aren't aware that they're causing harm", as you appear to be ascribing to me. I simply claimed that assertions that they *must* know are at,best contestable, since the premise - that all APs go to great lengths to keep the A secret - is invalid.

[janedoe67]

If one has the capacity for rational thought beyond oneself, one KNOWS that affairs bring harm and hurt. Therefore, the difference between being open and being secret seems - to me - to be that the ones who keep it secret are at least somewhat bothered by the harm they have a hand in creating (though not bothered enough to stop). The ones who are open just flat don't care if they have a hand in harming another human.

 

And in that case, infidelity is just the tip of the real problem.

[Furious]

i'm confused...

 

so instead of an A. H declares D then the next day has a "GF" that's ok?

 

if so the BS lost their martyrdom and are simply a failure.

 

Actually, it's usually the WS that claims the crown of martyrdom, very common for cheaters to cry poor me my spouse is so mean and not fulfilling my needs but i'm too weak to get a divorce because I'm a martyr for my kids.

 

A divorce....most WS's would rather cheat. A divorce would mean setting their spouse free to get that "gf" or "bf" too.