How much sex is enough???

[Beechy1973]

Experts these days agree that human beings are not designed to be monogamous; this applies just as much to women as to men.

 

Unless the sex remains fulfilling for both my take is that the relationship either won't last, or the relationship will become musty, undermined with resentment and possibly adultery.

 

As mentioned in a previous post, we are animals first and foremost. If you want to understand human nature first study primate and general mammal behaviour. Read the 'Selfish Gene' by Dawkins.

 

We have a modern part to our brains of course. But the animal is never far away.

[Beechy1973]

Little Tiger has it right.

 

Sex and intimacy are very much aligned to a woman's respect for her man.

 

The challenge, as I see it, is that men try and keep the woman happy (which usually means letting the woman have her own way) and often become passive and emasculated through doing this.

 

As a result the woman loses respect and sexual attraction dips.

 

The man needs to walk a tense tightrope between being an alpha ape and a modern, caring and sensitive husband and father.

 

Not easy.

[iiiii]

I think by the time a relationship has deteriorated into the idea that sex is a chore done by the woman, for the man, there's a deeper problem at work there. I've been there, and it's not pretty. We certainly couldn't fix it. And from what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be that uncommon either.

 

Problem with that type of dynamic is the guy ends up feeling deprived when he is not "given" sex, and the woman ends up feeling resentful and used when she's being manipulated into sex.

 

I'm no psychologist, and I guess all relationships differ, but from my experiences, when I hear about that type of dynamic I always wonder:

 

1. If the woman actually even feels that much respect or affection for the man anymore. If the woman doesn't respect or like a man, she'll going to find the idea of sex with him distasteful. I think some women stay with men out of habit, or for financial reasons, without actually liking or respecting them at all. Little wonder that they sex fades. I don't know how you'd even start to fix that problem.

 

2. I also wonder if the couple is having sufficient non sexual intimacy. Couples differ, obviously, but in my experience if I'm not enjoying a head rub or foot rub from a guy then I'm NOT going to enjoy sexual touching either. I don't think there's any quick fix there, either - from what I've seen, if the ball has been dropped there at some point, it takes a long time for the woman to learn to relax and enjoy touch again and trust that 90% of the time, a shoulder rub won't lead to a demand for sex.

 

3. I also always sort of wonder if the man is prioritising the woman's enjoyment in bed (yeah that may sound unfair to prioritise one partner's pleasure over another, but it's simple psychology: if she likes it, she'll want more of it... if you're doing things she doesn't like, hey guess what, she won't...)

 

Just some thoughts.

 

As for what is too much sex? If either partner is not enjoying it, it's too much sex. I don't think you can put a number on it.

[dichotomy]

I think by the time a relationship has deteriorated into the idea that sex is a chore done by the woman, for the man, there's a deeper problem at work there. I've been there, and it's not pretty. We certainly couldn't fix it. And from what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be that uncommon either.

 

Problem with that type of dynamic is the guy ends up feeling deprived when he is not "given" sex, and the woman ends up feeling resentful and used when she's being manipulated into sex.

 

I'm no psychologist, and I guess all relationships differ, but from my experiences, when I hear about that type of dynamic I always wonder:

 

1. If the woman actually even feels that much respect or affection for the man anymore. If the woman doesn't respect or like a man, she'll going to find the idea of sex with him distasteful. I think some women stay with men out of habit, or for financial reasons, without actually liking or respecting them at all. Little wonder that they sex fades. I don't know how you'd even start to fix that problem.

 

2. I also wonder if the couple is having sufficient non sexual intimacy. Couples differ, obviously, but in my experience if I'm not enjoying a head rub or foot rub from a guy then I'm NOT going to enjoy sexual touching either. I don't think there's any quick fix there, either - from what I've seen, if the ball has been dropped there at some point, it takes a long time for the woman to learn to relax and enjoy touch again and trust that 90% of the time, a shoulder rub won't lead to a demand for sex.

 

3. I also always sort of wonder if the man is prioritising the woman's enjoyment in bed (yeah that may sound unfair to prioritise one partner's pleasure over another, but it's simple psychology: if she likes it, she'll want more of it... if you're doing things she doesn't like, hey guess what, she won't...)

 

Just some thoughts.

 

As for what is too much sex? If either partner is not enjoying it, it's too much sex. I don't think you can put a number on it.

 

Thats true. Lots of other reasons as well.

[LittleTiger]

Thats true. Lots of other reasons as well.

 

I could be reading you wrong here but this seems like a rather rude and unnecessary comment!

 

What are you trying to say?

 

iiiii's opinions are as valid as anybody else's on this board!

[Mr. Lucky]

I believe half the problem in a long term relationship or marriage, where the wife loses interest in sex, is the fact that she has also lost at least some of the respect, affection and consideration for her husband that's necessary to sustain the intimate bond. The other half is probably due to age related issues such as hormonal changes and health.

Agree with much of what you say. But I also think some wives wait to act solely on attraction and a feeling that everything must be perfect. If my spouse and I did only that - waited until hormones up, stars aligned, no stress or tensions, all systems go - we'd be having sex the same 10-15 times a year many posters describe. Perfect becomes the enemy of good...

 

Mr. Lucky

[LittleTiger]

Agree with much of what you say. But I also think some wives wait to act solely on attraction and a feeling that everything must be perfect. If my spouse and I did only that - waited until hormones up, stars aligned, no stress or tensions, all systems go - we'd be having sex the same 10-15 times a year many posters describe. Perfect becomes the enemy of good..

 

I think you're mistaken. In a long term relationship, sex for a woman is rarely solely about physical attraction. It's not that everything has to be 'perfect', it's just that there has to be a 'desire' to get physically intimate.

 

In my opinion, if the desire is there ie the woman still likes, loves, admires and, most importantly, respects her husband/partner, as well as finding him physically appealing in some way (ie he hasn't turned into an unattractive slob) then it won't matter how stressed she is or even if her hormones are on a downer. She will probably want to have sex with him because she wants to be close to him.

 

I think that's something many men don't understand. They say they do, of course, and that's the reason they play along with the wine and dine scenario and it's also the reason that they run around the house doing chores in an attempt to keep their woman happy so that they will get their full sex quota for the week. What they don't realise is that it's not keeping her happy that's actually important, it's making her go 'gooey' for him that's important - and she'll only go 'gooey' in a moment where she thinks the guy is pretty awesome.

 

I can't speak for other women obviously but I can think my guy is awesome in some of the strangest circumstances when the stars most definitely aren't aligned.

[dichotomy]

I could be reading you wrong here but this seems like a rather rude and unnecessary comment!

 

What are you trying to say?

 

iiiii's opinions are as valid as anybody else's on this board!

 

 

It was not intended to be rude, but I can see I was too pointed... and in a mood. Apologizes.

 

The reasons expressed iiiii are logical and common. I was simply also agreeing that all relationships are different and the reasons for low sex or sexless marriages - do vary beyond what was listed and are sometimes hard to determine, even with professional expert involvement.

Edited May 24, 2014 by dichotomy

[giotto]

I agree with LittleTiger... if your spouse doesn't want to have sex with you, it's not just physical, it's mainly mental... something doesn't click anymore.

 

I remember that, almost 10 years in our relationship, my wife told me I wasn't "man enough" for her...

 

I explain... basically, I wasn't make that much money (my business was still in infancy) and she was the main bread winner. I was working from home, looking after our son a couple of days a week too. After that, sex went downhill. In fact, in hindsight, we should have divorced then, but I didn't pay much attention to it - although I was hurt for a while. Mind you, I was doing all the cleaning, cooking and looking after one child. But it wasn't enough. I was nice to her. I'm sure many women would have loved to have a caring husband like me. But, no. It's never enough. I'm sure she thought she married a loser...

 

This is just to say that you can be "perfect" in your own eyes, but there always be something wrong with the relationship. It's all in the head. I wish I'd left then....

[LittleTiger]

It was not intended to be rude, but I can see I was too pointed... and in a mood. Apologizes.

 

The reasons expressed iiiii are logical and common. I was simply also agreeing that all relationships are different and the reasons for low sex or sexless marriages - do vary beyond what was listed and are sometimes hard to determine, even with professional expert involvement.

 

That's good of you to admit you were a little 'over the line'. I have a lot of respect for people who can do that.

 

Of course, it's not me that the apology is for but, hopefully, iiiii, appreciates it too - and you are right that there are several million reasons for sexless marriages, although there are also many common denominators.

[LittleTiger]

I agree with LittleTiger... if your spouse doesn't want to have sex with you, it's not just physical, it's mainly mental... something doesn't click anymore.

 

I remember that, almost 10 years in our relationship, my wife told me I wasn't "man enough" for her...

 

I explain... basically, I wasn't make that much money (my business was still in infancy) and she was the main bread winner. I was working from home, looking after our son a couple of days a week too. After that, sex went downhill. In fact, in hindsight, we should have divorced then, but I didn't pay much attention to it - although I was hurt for a while. Mind you, I was doing all the cleaning, cooking and looking after one child. But it wasn't enough. I was nice to her. I'm sure many women would have loved to have a caring husband like me. But, no. It's never enough. I'm sure she thought she married a loser...

 

This is just to say that you can be "perfect" in your own eyes, but there always be something wrong with the relationship. It's all in the head. I wish I'd left then....

 

Spot on giotto! I'm so sorry you're in this situation but now I can understand why you feel there is no way back and it's just a matter of time before you cut and run. I suspect my ex husband felt something similar - even though he was the bread winner - he was a super nice guy and he tried too hard in all the wrong ways. (I wish he was still alive so that I could apologise for not understanding how it was for him).

 

The huge problem men have is that women want them for their masculine qualities and then proceed to emasculate them at breakneck speed.

 

Not deliberately, of course, but by allowing the man to trip over himself in an attempt to keep her happy - often by doing more than his fair share of the housework or the cooking, or whatever else he feels would make her life easier. I know I made the mistake of allowing that to happen in my marriage and it's one I will never make again.

 

I was talking to my guy the other day about feeling stressed - that I never seemed to have the time to do anything and life seemed to be one long round of washing, cleaning, ironing and shopping. His response, wonderful as he is, was to offer to take some of that load off me. He said he'd learn to do the washing exactly as I liked it and would do all the ironing too. He already cooks because I hate it.

 

My answer was an emphatic 'NO' (while assuring him that I appreciated his kindness). I told him there are enough 'man jobs' for him to do which pile up when he's not here (he's away working for six months of the year) and I will take care of the 'girl stuff'. I want him to be the man - in fact I need him to be the man so that I can admire his manliness. So I make sure that I keep his balls well and truly intact - for both of us.

 

I know you could argue that, in this day and age, men and women can, and do, swap roles. If it works for some couples then good for them but, I strongly believe, it doesn't work for the majority of people and I know for sure that it doesn't work for me!

[Beechy1973]

A lot of wisdom expressed in this thread.

 

Wish I read it years ago when it mattered more.

 

Pussy whipped and wimpy passive men pay heed!

[iiiii]

It was not intended to be rude, but I can see I was too pointed... and in a mood. Apologizes.

 

The reasons expressed iiiii are logical and common. I was simply also agreeing that all relationships are different and the reasons for low sex or sexless marriages - do vary beyond what was listed and are sometimes hard to determine, even with professional expert involvement.

 

No worries, no offence taken - I agree, I am sure there are a million reasons for sexless marriages. I can only talk about the ones I've seen and experienced, though.

 

Also, thanks, LittleTiger.

[giotto]

Spot on giotto! I'm so sorry you're in this situation but now I can understand why you feel there is no way back and it's just a matter of time before you cut and run. I suspect my ex husband felt something similar - even though he was the bread winner - he was a super nice guy and he tried too hard in all the wrong ways. (I wish he was still alive so that I could apologise for not understanding how it was for him).

 

The huge problem men have is that women want them for their masculine qualities and then proceed to emasculate them at breakneck speed.

 

Not deliberately, of course, but by allowing the man to trip over himself in an attempt to keep her happy - often by doing more than his fair share of the housework or the cooking, or whatever else he feels would make her life easier. I know I made the mistake of allowing that to happen in my marriage and it's one I will never make again.

 

I was talking to my guy the other day about feeling stressed - that I never seemed to have the time to do anything and life seemed to be one long round of washing, cleaning, ironing and shopping. His response, wonderful as he is, was to offer to take some of that load off me. He said he'd learn to do the washing exactly as I liked it and would do all the ironing too. He already cooks because I hate it.

 

My answer was an emphatic 'NO' (while assuring him that I appreciated his kindness). I told him there are enough 'man jobs' for him to do which pile up when he's not here (he's away working for six months of the year) and I will take care of the 'girl stuff'. I want him to be the man - in fact I need him to be the man so that I can admire his manliness. So I make sure that I keep his balls well and truly intact - for both of us.

 

I know you could argue that, in this day and age, men and women can, and do, swap roles. If it works for some couples then good for them but, I strongly believe, it doesn't work for the majority of people and I know for sure that it doesn't work for me!

 

It's very difficult for a man to strike the right balance between alpha and beta...I guess I was too beta. Well, I was beta when we got together... expect me to change? Maybe. Maybe I wasn't "man enough" when we started a family. Maybe she expected me to grow some more balls. But I had moved to a different country and was trying to build my own business. I was working part time too... our biggest problem has always been communication. My wife bottles it up. In fact, her comment was rather uncharacteristic of hers. I understand her position - I'm sure she would have liked to stay at home longer with the kids, instead of having to go to work so early after the birth. I see what happened there now. Didn't get it at the time. Having said that, there wasn't a lot I could do about it...

 

I've learnt my lesson. My wife works part time now, and I work 60 hours a week... roles have reversed, but it's too late. I'll never forget those words, though...

[Toodamnpragmatic]

that make you pause and wonder. I too wonder if I am too beta (can't stand that word) and have to do my own thing and listen to those spouting the alpha mantra.

 

Then we have females and their balancing motherhood and work and often questioning both.

 

Interesting too as we become more successful and confident in our careers we still don't break free from the nurturing, helpful modern male who cooks, tries to clean and assumes 50% of the housework.

 

However often we have stumbled and screwed up earlier and our wives don't forget.

[giotto]

 

However often we have stumbled and screwed up earlier and our wives don't forget.

 

Nope, they don't... I really don't understand my wife... I'm nearly perfect!

[xxoo]

If I was TDP, I'd want to find out why my wife no longer respected me!

 

I think this is the core issue.

 

I love my h, and I'm attracted to him, but I am largely driven to please him and earn his adoration. I value his attention, so I work at keeping it. I value our relationship, so I work at keeping it.

 

If your needs are her lowest priority, find out why she doesn't care about your needs. Find out why she doesn't value your attention.

[giotto]

If your needs are her lowest priority, find out why she doesn't care about your needs. Find out why she doesn't value your attention.

 

This is a bit harsh... only one of TDP's needs seem to have the lowest priority...

[Beechy1973]

Do any of you think there's any truth to that old adage:

 

'If she's not getting it at home she's getting it elsewhere'?

 

The she could, of course, be changed to he.

 

In fact let me rephrase:

 

'If they're not getting it at home they're getting it elsewhere'.

 

That's better

[giotto]

Do any of you think there's any truth to that old adage:

 

'If she's not getting it at home she's getting it elsewhere'?

 

The she could, of course, be changed to he.

 

In fact let me rephrase:

 

'If they're not getting it at home they're getting it elsewhere'.

 

That's better

 

I can only speak for my wife... she has zero sex drive, actually, -20 sex drive... She wouldn't get it back even if injected with massive doses of a clitoris enlarging prescription... :laugh:

[janedoe67]

These discussions always intrigue me because I was the one who didn't get sex, and I am the woman. So either my husband is really female.....or the typical "the man isn't doing enough to earn it" or "the woman doesn't care about sex after kids" doesn't cut it.

 

I'll go ahead and say it: my husband was the only man with whom I could morally and ethically have sex. I am touchy and affectionate and sensual by nature. So what the heck was I supposed to do when he unilaterally decided sex was not important?

 

I'm going to get flak for this, but I say sex IS a foundational part of marriage, and barring real problems or abuse or health issues that cannot be addressed, yeah, it should be a given. If you do not plan to have sex in your marriage, either find another asexual to marry or stay single. It really isn't fair to withhold what someone needs and then give them no recourse.

 

If a man said "I'm not a talker. I don't WANT to have conversations with my wife because she isn't nice enough to me," that would NOT fly. And yet if a man doesn't jump through hoops he doesn't "deserve" sex?

 

As far as frequency goes, that is something that has to be discussed. But I can tell you that even though 3 or 4 times a year would have been more than enough for H, it was not fair of him to expect it to be enough for me. Just like I would not have insisted on the 3-4 times a week I really would have liked.

 

People tend to see the one who wants sex as selfish. There can be a heck of a lot of selfishness on the other side as well.

[dichotomy]

Do any of you think there's any truth to that old adage:

 

'If she's not getting it at home she's getting it elsewhere'?

 

The she could, of course, be changed to he.

 

In fact let me rephrase:

 

'If they're not getting it at home they're getting it elsewhere'.

 

That's better

 

Good point.

 

That has occurred to me, for many justifiable reasons. It was eliminated as one of the possible reasons for our low sex marriage. But I suspect her drive would return for a new partner - she has said no - but I suspect it would for lots of reasons - and one of those reasons would be because it would have to if she were seeing someone.

Edited May 26, 2014 by dichotomy

[LittleTiger]

Do any of you think there's any truth to that old adage:

 

'If she's not getting it at home she's getting it elsewhere'?

 

The she could, of course, be changed to he.

 

In fact let me rephrase:

 

'If they're not getting it at home they're getting it elsewhere'.

 

That's better

 

No, I don't think there's any truth in this - not in most cases anyway, and certainly not universally.

 

People go off sex, or their partners, for millions of reasons.

 

I strongly believe that, in most cases, it's about the dynamics of the relationship going out of balance in some way.

 

One partner seeking what they're missing outside the marriage may be the result, but I don't think it's the cause.

[LittleTiger]

But I suspect her drive would return for a new partner - she has said no - but I suspect it would for lots of reasons - and one of those reasons would be because it would have to if she were seeing someone.

 

Yes, of course it would - because the dynamics of that relationship would be different from the current dynamics in your marriage.

[dichotomy]

Yes, of course it would - because the dynamics of that relationship would be different from the current dynamics in your marriage.

 

 

She claims her sex drive and attraction is down period - for me ...or any man and it would not be different with anyone else right now. She maybe right as there are sometimes - internal reasons for a drop in sexual desire and activity that have nothing to do with relationship they are in.

Edited May 26, 2014 by dichotomy