More "Christians" in hell than non-Christians?

[M30USA]

Let me just say I understand how ridiculous this sounds. But the case I'm making here is strictly using Scripture.

 

Firstly, Jesus himself said that the "heathen" (or non-churched) will enter the kingdom of heaven. This greatly angered the religious leaders of his time. It showed that true salvation had zero to do with institutional affiliation and all to do with spiritual rebirth.

 

Secondly, a critical verse comes when Jesus was talking to his own self-proclaimed followers. It was these people (not atheists) to whom he said the gate is narrow that leads to life and broad that leads to destruction. Again, this wasn't a comparison of believers versus non-believers. He was saying that, among those who profess faith in him, "few" will find life and "many" will find destruction.

 

Thirdly, why did Jesus reserve almost all his harsh words for religious people? You'd think he would rail on the atheists! Quite the contrary. He fully knew the damning power of false religion. False religion is far more destructive than total disbelief because it doesn't even know its own deception!

 

These are the reasons why I believe the Bible suggests that more "heathen" will enter heaven than professing Christians. Don't misundestand me. Salvation requires faith in Jesus Christ. True spiritual rebirth. All Im saying is I believe there are MORE true rebirths outside of institutional Christianity than within.

 

(Let the stoning begin, hehe.)

Edited May 19, 2014 by M30USA

[Glinda.Good]

"Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you." (Mat 21:31).

 

Has it occurred to you that YOU, self proclaimed follower, may not be going?

 

Seriously, do you think you're "in"?

[M30USA]

"Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you." (Mat 21:31).

 

Has it occurred to you that YOU, self proclaimed follower, may not be going?

 

Seriously, do you think you're "in"?

 

Yes it has occurred to me. This is why Jesus warned his followers to "remain" in him and that only those who endure to the very end will be saved.

 

Good Scripture verse, BTW.

Edited May 21, 2014 by M30USA

[todreaminblue]

He also said to the woman adulteress who was under threat of stoning go and sin no more after he said he without sin cast the first stone.......dont know what verse that was...and google comes to the rescue

 

 

 

1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

John 8 kjv

 

I think when yo do things in jesus name that are bad meaning you have taken on the name of jesus christ as your savior you can no longer do unclean things or heathenish things.....so atrocities (for example one close to my heart and the hearts of friends and family who survived this, child sexual abuse)committed by men of faith in the name of christianity...god wont be happy......justice will be done ........they may hide behind their mantle of christianity on earth and be protected by organisations that honor corruption there will be no protection from the wrath of god.....there is also no protection if you take on christ's name and continue to sin....you face judgement either way...........deb

[janedoe67]

Our salvation is not dependent on us. It is dependent upon Him. I know that I have repented of sin and placed my faith in Him and my life under His Lordship. So yes, I know exactly where I will go when I die....not because of me, but because of Him.

[Speakingofwhich]

"God has give us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:11-13

Edited May 23, 2014 by Speakingofwhich

[M30USA]

Our salvation is not dependent on us. It is dependent upon Him. I know that I have repented of sin and placed my faith in Him and my life under His Lordship. So yes, I know exactly where I will go when I die....not because of me, but because of Him.

 

Did Jesus die for the entire world or just for those who God chose in advance? How you answer this question determines whether your above comment is correct or incorrect.

[pureinheart]

Let me just say I understand how ridiculous this sounds. But the case I'm making here is strictly using Scripture.

 

Firstly, Jesus himself said that the "heathen" (or non-churched) will enter the kingdom of heaven. This greatly angered the religious leaders of his time. It showed that true salvation had zero to do with institutional affiliation and all to do with spiritual rebirth.

 

Secondly, a critical verse comes when Jesus was talking to his own self-proclaimed followers. It was these people (not atheists) to whom he said the gate is narrow that leads to life and broad that leads to destruction. Again, this wasn't a comparison of believers versus non-believers. He was saying that, among those who profess faith in him, "few" will find life and "many" will find destruction.

 

Thirdly, why did Jesus reserve almost all his harsh words for religious people? You'd think he would rail on the atheists! Quite the contrary. He fully knew the damning power of false religion. False religion is far more destructive than total disbelief because it doesn't even know its own deception!

 

These are the reasons why I believe the Bible suggests that more "heathen" will enter heaven than professing Christians. Don't misundestand me. Salvation requires faith in Jesus Christ. True spiritual rebirth. All Im saying is I believe there are MORE true rebirths outside of institutional Christianity than within.

 

(Let the stoning begin, hehe.)

 

M30, I don't share this very often, especially in an open forum such as this, due to it leaving me wide open, but here goes. The reason I can't stay in any church for any length of time, is due to the religious spirit I encounter with every one of them. There is an understanding that there is no perfect church, but my encounters have been beyond the realm of typical imperfection. I just can't operate effectively in the Spirit either, so have given up for the most part.

 

I think one reason the "salvation" count can be high is due to emotional conversion and possibly even brain washing. I know this sounds crazy although this is the only explanation I can come up with.

 

It's always baffled me how, with a church literally on most street corners, could an entire country be so deceived (speaking specifically of the US), but what better way to deceive? The enemy cannot rid the US (or planet) of spirituality, so why not work with it and infiltrate it?

[truthbetold]

Good observation, and I can totally see why it could be true. We are supposed to know and wish to follow Jesus in a more profound way. Picking up our cross and following. Many Christians pay lip service only. They hide behind the "once saved always saved" when it's clear we need "works" but not in the way some may assume.

 

The Bible tells us we must have faith in order to be saved (Hebrews 11:6). Yet is faith nothing more than believing and trusting? Searching the Scriptures, we see faith also involves assent to God's truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it's certainly an attention grabber.

 

Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was "born again" it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by "remaining in Him" (John 15:1-11).

 

Paul tells us our faith is living and can go through many stages. It never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience no matter how genuine or sincere. Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a "waiver" that exempts them from these verses.

 

We don't "earn" our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can't earn it but you can lose the free gift given from the Father (James 1:17).

 

There's a particular sub forum that has posters justifying and rationalizing bad behavior. They will say "he who is without sin cast the first stone..." They forget to add "go and sin no more" (with the help of grace, not on our own) I am not speaking of the non believers only those that believe in God.

 

I've even heard other Christians involved in what is known to be sinful to say "well God wouldn't have brought me this person, or this thing if he didn't want me to have it" Even though they KNOW by their conscience it's wrong, they continue to rationalize that God would understand!

 

God never causes us to sin. He "allows" temptation but doesn't provide it, he will always provide the way out. Too many Christians take scripture out of context and not look at the whole. If it causes hurt to another knowingly or even unknowingly if you know the action is sinful. It's wrong! And we are told by Jesus to help our brother or sister when the stumble, help them on the path.

 

For example adultery, I'm shocked at the amount of Christians I read here (none IRL that I know of) that think it's okay if they're not the ones married. Well okay, technically not breaking the "adultery" commandment however Jesus clearly speaks of pre marital or any sex without marriage a sin. He also tells us to "do unto others" To me that's all others, not just those in your circle, it's a worldwide thing to build up the kingdom with love.

 

I think we know we are on the right path when we experience the "fruits" of the Holy Spirit. When we have patience, kindness, love, unselfishness etc and treat all others with human dignity.

 

I think the hard thing can be to stop bending God to our will. Which is what I see many do. They pray for this or that and go about seeking their own way and their will. You have to die to yourself and what you think your desires are to God's perfect will. Ask him to lead and he will. He will light up the path, but it's not always easy. Anytime I have committed a sin and *knew* in my heart I was doing it, but justified it with "it must be ok with God in this case etc..." I always ended up in a mess. A mess of heartache and a mess to clean up spiritually and emotionally. When I turned my life over, I saw big changes.

 

That doesn't always mean it's easier or happier in the moment or whatever but it's always infinitely better. And when I take the focus off of God in that Jesus is not the center, it shows. I may *think* I'm being a Christian but my life shows otherwise. That's the danger Christians have. They get lulled into a sense of security because we think we know Jesus but we really don't if we are not following all of his teachings as best we can.

 

 

There are non Christians that are far better stewards of the resources we are to have dominion over. And I think what we do on earth matters. There are better non Christians that hold the golden rule better, so what does that say? This is the testing ground before we go home. How can we have heavenly things if we are poor in charge of earthly things? This is a really good article, long but really outlines a lot of the Christian points we should be following from Luke 16

 

Generosity:Handling Money and Possessions

I don't think there's any way of saying while we are here, who is going to make it and who isn't. I think there are better and clearer ways to be on that path though. I absolutely think it's those that are Christian in name only but find excuses and selfish justifications to continue sinning for any reason are definitely in danger of hearing Jesus say "Go away, I do not know you" The same with the Pharisees who behind closed doors did all sorts of detestable things, that's why Jesus warned them.

 

I think it's a continuous journey though. In fact I am not the Christian that I was 5 mos ago. I simple point is I used to swear on occasion. Frustration or anger or whatever, or even just joking. Even though I *knew* it was wrong, I justified it by saying, "eh it's just words, meaningless etc..." but I was hit like a ton of bricks one day with the verse. 1 Corinthians 6:10 that those that use filthy language will not inherit the kingdom (I'm paraphrasing)

 

That seems like such a simple thing, but I see the blessings in my life from growing even closer to Christ's teachings. All the teachings, not just some, so it's an ever changing and progressing journey. We can do nothing without the grace of God though. Yes we're going to sin, we are not to strive for it though and do it when we know it's wrong.

 

If we have impatience, we need to ask for the grace to be formed with patience. I think every "bad" trait we have we are to let the potter remold the clay into the good that is Jesus living in us. Glorifying the Lord with our life.

 

So like in Philippians 2:12 I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

[M30USA]

Truthbetold,

 

That is an amazing post. You just about summed up the problem and the correct solution.

[Lostinlife4now]

I have been raised Catholic and know no other way! While I do agree with SOME of the Catholic teachings, I always have known in my heart that I (we) are all works in progress.

 

If you believe in Christ and TRY to be a good human being and treat others with respect and kindness, God does forgive our sins.

 

Isn't that why he died on the cross for us?

 

I don't read the bible as much as I would like...but I DO PRAY ALOT....I use the rosary. And when I do pray a rosary, there is a PEACE that comes over me. Truly makes me think all the more clearly!

 

And I always ask HIM to light the way of the path of my life!!!!!

 

If anyone asks HIM for forgiveness and trusts in the Lord...you are going to Heaven, maybe not right away....PURGATORY for some time but in the end Eternal Life will be granted to you!

 

just my .02

Edited May 27, 2014 by Lostinlife4now
spelling

[M30USA]

I have been raised Catholic and know no other way! While I do agree with SOME of the Catholic teachings, I always have known in my heart that I (we) are all works in progress.

 

If you believe in Christ and TRY to be a good human being and treat others with respect and kindness, God does forgive our sins.

 

Isn't that why he died on the cross for us?

 

I don't read the bible as much as I would like...but I DO PRAY ALOT....I use the rosary. And when I do pray a rosary, there is a PEACE that comes over me. Truly makes me think all the more clearly!

 

And I always ask HIM to light the way of the path of my life!!!!!

 

If anyone asks HIM for forgiveness and trusts in the Lord...you are going to Heaven, maybe not right away....PURGATORY for some time but in the end Eternal Life will be granted to you!

 

just my .02

 

There is zero biblical support for the concept of purgatory. It is a myth which comes entirely from manmade religion.

 

If purgatory is true, then Christ's atonement for our sin is not sufficient. You, yourself, said that we are saved through grace in Christ alone. How then can you include the idea of purgatory? The Bible says that God, himself, will give us new hearts entirely. It's not like our old ones just need a little refinement (or purgatory). They will be gone! Removed! He, God, will give us entirely new hearts. He will be the one to do it, not you or me.

[Lostinlife4now]

There is zero biblical support for the concept of purgatory. It is a myth which comes entirely from manmade religion.

 

If purgatory is true, then Christ's atonement for our sin is not sufficient. You, yourself, said that we are saved through grace in Christ alone. How then can you include the idea of purgatory? The Bible says that God, himself, will give us new hearts entirely. It's not like our old ones just need a little refinement (or purgatory). They will be gone! Removed! He, God, will give us entirely new hearts. He will be the one to do it, not you or me.

 

 

If I am not mistaken M30....Catholicism has teachings and one of them is Purgatory....Pray for all the souls of the faithfully departed for they may receive the Kingdom of Heaven. I think Purgatory is a Catholic teaching.

 

I do not believe it. I think when we die....St. Peter is at the gates waiting for us. And our relatives....

[M30USA]

If I am not mistaken M30....Catholicism has teachings and one of them is Purgatory....Pray for all the souls of the faithfully departed for they may receive the Kingdom of Heaven. I think Purgatory is a Catholic teaching.

 

I do not believe it. I think when we die....St. Peter is at the gates waiting for us. And our relatives....

 

I understand what you're saying. Catholicism does teach this. I'm just saying to ignore what religious sects say and just go by Scripture and the Holy Spirit. The only purgatory that will be faced is in this life. After this life, Christ will defeat all wickedness and, as I previously said, give us new hearts that we have not known up until that point. All of the work is done by him. As Scripture says, he is the author and perfecter of our faith. He has started it and he will finish it. The only role we have (and even this is arguable) is merely to allow him to work in us. Once we have decided this, there is no need for purgatory after this life. God will keep us here until we've been refined and purified. But the purgatory ends in this life.

[pureinheart]

Hey M30, just to mention, I've been seeing this a lot lately. A friend on FB that I've known her and her husband since I can remember, just posted that they are in an "open marriage". I understand that we are all susceptible to "falling" per se, although most of the time, especially with something as big as this, I wouldn't put it out there for the world to see unless it were in a repentant state, meaning me hating the sin.

 

This confuses me because her and her husband have always "liked" my God stuff (both inspirational and political) and put stuff like that out there themselves. They communicate that they are regular church goers, basically strong Christians.

 

I understand salvation is not based on works, although now I'm wondering if they really know the Lord because this is a biggy IMO- if it were me, I'd know I'm sinning and keep it quiet, you know? Knowing this is one of the basics of Gods commands and would ruin my testimony.

 

Can you see where I'm coming from? Please also understand that I'm not inferring that we "hide" sin because I know that's what the enemy wants, but I wouldn't advertise it either to people I know...

[Untouched]

Do you believe that we are meant by God to worship Him all by ourselves? I believe that we are called to worship in fellowship with other believers. How else are we to be challenged?

[Allumere]

Hey M30, just to mention, I've been seeing this a lot lately. A friend on FB that I've known her and her husband since I can remember, just posted that they are in an "open marriage". I understand that we are all susceptible to "falling" per se, although most of the time, especially with something as big as this, I wouldn't put it out there for the world to see unless it were in a repentant state, meaning me hating the sin.

 

This confuses me because her and her husband have always "liked" my God stuff (both inspirational and political) and put stuff like that out there themselves. They communicate that they are regular church goers, basically strong Christians.

 

I understand salvation is not based on works, although now I'm wondering if they really know the Lord because this is a biggy IMO- if it were me, I'd know I'm sinning and keep it quiet, you know? Knowing this is one of the basics of Gods commands and would ruin my testimony.

 

Can you see where I'm coming from? Please also understand that I'm not inferring that we "hide" sin because I know that's what the enemy wants, but I wouldn't advertise it either to people I know...

 

Butting in....If they are friends then simply ask them. You can certainly do it in a way that is not judgemental. And you can easily bring up why you scratched your head at their announcement. Reality is that Christians come in all shapes,sizes, understandings and interpretations. Some are new and a little too passionate, some believe or rather live by the basic "I believe Christ is my savior, I repent..amen", and some are simply thirsty. I look at is as no different then a gay person openly living a gay lifestyle. The Bible says it is a sin. And if they are a gay Christian this is not new news. They made a choice.

[M30USA]

I pay absolutely zero attention to a person's self-ascribed titles. If a person calls themselves Christian it means nothing to me. Let's get into a conversation. You believe in Jesus? Oh that's awesome, so does Satan! Tell me what that MEANS to you and how it affects your LIFE. You still value the exact same things that every atheist values? Then according to the Bible you aren't on the Way. There were people called righteous by God long before Jesus' name was uttered. Why? Because they believed God and sought him even more than money or food or life itself.

 

Note: lest anyone accuse me of prompting "works-based salvation", notice I didn't say you must be perfect. I asked what you VALUE. What is your direction? What prize is in your heart? What kingdom are you travelling to? Are you storing up treasure, as Jesus said, on earth where thieves steal and moths destroy? Or are you storing up treasures in heaven?

Edited May 29, 2014 by M30USA