Churches being forced to accept same sex marriages

[truthbetold]

First abortions and now this.

 

"a judge in New Jersey recently ordered that a church must allow its facilities to be used for same-sex “wedding” ceremonies despite the church’s religious beliefs against such relationships. The Judge’s rationale in ordering the church to open its facility to same-sex “weddings” was that the Constitution allows “some intrusion into religious freedom to balance other important societal goals.”

 

So let me get this straight. Christians have no rights to intrude on other's beliefs...got it. But now we have to lay down and allow them to intrude on ours?

 

Makes you wonder just how long God is going to put up with the destruction of society. These are dire times indeed and we all need to pray that God's will be done and have mercy on this society. I do hold onto the fact that God's in charge. One day Jesus our Savior will return in his glory and that alone gives me great joy!

[lollipopspot]

I assume that it's because the church is accepting government tax breaks? If they want to make themselves a private institution without nonprofit status, they could probably do what they wanted.

 

Living in society, we all have to accept things that we do not approve of.

 

I despise that you eat meat. I think it's cruel, unconscious, and selfish. But here I am, talking to someone who greedily kills innocent beings for a taste preference who's whinging about gay marriage.

 

That's life. All you can do is try to change things as best you see fit.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

First abortions and now this.

 

"a judge in New Jersey recently ordered that a church must allow its facilities to be used for same-sex “wedding” ceremonies despite the church’s religious beliefs against such relationships. The Judge’s rationale in ordering the church to open its facility to same-sex “weddings” was that the Constitution allows “some intrusion into religious freedom to balance other important societal goals.”

 

So let me get this straight. Christians have no rights to intrude on other's beliefs...got it. But now we have to lay down and allow them to intrude on ours?

 

Makes you wonder just how long God is going to put up with the destruction of society. These are dire times indeed and we all need to pray that God's will be done and have mercy on this society. I do hold onto the fact that God's in charge. One day Jesus our Savior will return in his glory and that alone gives me great joy!

 

First of all, this is not a church but a Christian-based organization.

 

Second, the facility in the suit is a boardwalk pavilion at the beach. (In NJ it's "shore"). This pavilion has been rented out to non-Christians before, so I agree with the ruling.

[M30USA]

None of this matters. The true church is not a building but rather believing in Jesus Christ, repenting of sin, and increasing in holiness. Where can activist judges intrude in that?

[truthbetold]

I assume that it's because the church is accepting government tax breaks? If they want to make themselves a private institution without nonprofit status, they could probably do what they wanted.

 

Living in society, we all have to accept things that we do not approve of.

 

I despise that you eat meat. I think it's cruel, unconscious, and selfish. But here I am, talking to someone who greedily kills innocent beings for a taste preference who's whinging about gay marriage.

 

That's life. All you can do is try to change things as best you see fit.

 

Angry much? Not sure where you get I "greedily kill" I may partake of from time to time but quite honestly I eat mostly seafood and prefer Mediterranean foods 95% of time. But true, I do not advocate for animal rights as strongly. I did help in a fight to save a dog from being "wrongly accused" and sentenced to euthanasia, it was a husky, small steps and we did save him!

 

I read your comments about cows and mother and calf being separated, so I'm not ignorant to your cause. I do think it's sad. I think it's even more sad to take a life that had no say. I live by the do no harm to others.

 

I am not "whining" that would be if I said "whhhy" I didn't even ask, "why?" I simply stated it's sad. Sad does not = hate for homosexuals. Sad = sad for what God intended, we are so very far from that.

 

However if you go to the movies and or any television commercial or ad, you may be bombarded with meat images, I can see how that's unsettling for someone with your position and I get it.

 

First of all, this is not a church but a Christian-based organization.

 

Second, the facility in the suit is a boardwalk pavilion at the beach. (In NJ it's "shore"). This pavilion has been rented out to non-Christians before, so I agree with the ruling.

 

While I appreciate that, it's likely foretelling to what could be coming. I should have had a ? mark in the title but you can't edit! The concern is that some churches will be forced and the law will be changed because it will be argued it's discrimination. People want a separation of church and state unless it fits their agenda. Marriage was started by God, it was his plan. The terms bride, groom, husband, wife are all in scripture. Marriage was a religious matter long before it was a civil one.

 

None of this matters. The true church is not a building but rather believing in Jesus Christ, repenting of sin, and increasing in holiness. Where can activist judges intrude in that?

 

I respect that. But I disagree it doesn't matter. I think it's sad Christian rights are constantly being stripped in the name of progression. We are told to be on fire for Jesus not lukewarm. To be on fire for is to love him with all our hearts and minds and hold the principles and teachings he gave us close to us at all times. And to defend them when necessary.

[janedoe67]

I do agree that there are people and organizations that would love to force an actual church to do things - or, more likely, keep actual churches FROM doing things....or just do away with religion altogether.

 

This is not one of those times.

 

The zoning of this pavilion makes it pretty much public property. This is a zoning issue and not a religious persecution. The Constitution and a half decent lawyer will be able to keep any actual church sanctuary from being forced to host gay marriage if the church has convictions against it.

 

Thing is, when Christians get up in arms about these "half-stories," we just look whiny, histrionic, and plain dumb to the rest of the world. The story of the "poor boy who wasnt allowed to read his Bible in class"? It was a MATH class, and he was reading it and trying to preach to students INSTEAD OF doing his classwork. The panicky Christians left that part of the story out. The Christian club that "got in trouble for giving the teachers donuts with a Bible verse attached"? They got in trouble because they went into the teachers' lounge without permission, something that was clearly against the rules for ANY student. Most of the time, when you bother to actually look at the entire story and not a sound byte spun to incite fear, there IS a logical explanation.

 

I am a Bible believing Christian, but I also have a brain, and this kind of inaccurate half-telling drives me up the wall.

 

Christians need to spend a little more time on Matthew 28:19-20 and a lot less time in picket lines, boycotts and politics. Jesus didn't say anything about protesting funerals and screaming at scared pregnant teenagers in His Word.

[carhill]

It appears the ministry/organization traded property tax exemption on the facility for a specific promise to make the facility available, equally, to all comers. Subsequent to this incident/action, they've apparently made a change to that status.

 

As there appears to be no award of damages, both parties walk away and society deems justice as being served.

 

Presuming I found the right ruling, as there was no source linked in the OP, this issue doesn't appear to be contemporaneous, rather an older (2012 ruling) regarding this issue. Read the ruling here:

 

http://www.adfmedia.org/files/OGCMA-BernsteinRuling.pdf

 

IMO, this issue is more about business than religion. Tax exemption, facilities held for public use and rental profits. Nice pavilion on a public boardwalk.

[truthbetold]

I do agree that there are people and organizations that would love to force an actual church to do things - or, more likely, keep actual churches FROM doing things....or just do away with religion altogether.

 

This is not one of those times.

 

The zoning of this pavilion makes it pretty much public property. This is a zoning issue and not a religious persecution. The Constitution and a half decent lawyer will be able to keep any actual church sanctuary from being forced to host gay marriage if the church has convictions against it.

 

Thing is, when Christians get up in arms about these "half-stories," we just look whiny, histrionic, and plain dumb to the rest of the world. The story of the "poor boy who wasnt allowed to read his Bible in class"? It was a MATH class, and he was reading it and trying to preach to students INSTEAD OF doing his classwork. The panicky Christians left that part of the story out. The Christian club that "got in trouble for giving the teachers donuts with a Bible verse attached"? They got in trouble because they went into the teachers' lounge without permission, something that was clearly against the rules for ANY student. Most of the time, when you bother to actually look at the entire story and not a sound byte spun to incite fear, there IS a logical explanation.

 

I am a Bible believing Christian, but I also have a brain, and this kind of inaccurate half-telling drives me up the wall.

 

Christians need to spend a little more time on Matthew 28:19-20 and a lot less time in picket lines, boycotts and politics. Jesus didn't say anything about protesting funerals and screaming at scared pregnant teenagers in His Word.

 

"Among the faiths in which gay and lesbian marriage is not sanctioned as a rite: Roman Catholic, Mormon, Southern Baptist, the National Association of Evangelical Churches, Orthodox Judaism, the United Methodist Church"

 

Included among churches that marry same-sex couples: Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations, the Independent Catholic Church --Islamic law forbids homosexuality and prohibits same-sex marriage.

--Buddhism takes no official position on same-sex marriage. __

 

Taken from this

 

Again, I said I should have had a "? mark" in my title. It is merely stating we are on a slippery slope. No histrionics, no whining.

 

I will agree to disagree with you that Jesus didn't and wouldn't have a strong stand against abortion. To kill is wrong, never a solution. A child is a life at conception. I respect all life, it's a basic Christian tenet.

 

Homosexuality is wrong, it's in the Bible as such. That doesn't mean you don't love and treat the person with human dignity, far from it. However that also doesn't mean that you don't pray for lost souls.

 

Marriage is between one man and one woman, unless you want to cherry pick scripture.

 

We are taught to not conform to the world and likely we Christians will be ridiculed for our beliefs. That's okay because Jesus promises that those that seek and thirst for justice, will be satisfied when he returns.

[Keenly]

I'm really bothered by the phrased used in his most recent post. " christian rights "

 

 

Christians don't have rights. People have rights. Religion does not grant you a separate class of citizenship. You do not get more equal treatment than others.

 

You use your religion to mask your bigotry, and you point to a book to justify discrimination, and then when you are placed on EQUAL footing , rightfully so, to the rest of the world by the judicial branch, you cry victim!

 

 

seriously... the irony... the irony when religious organizations create and Sponser legislating preventing gays from getting married, which in my eyes in an OFFENSIVE maneuver attacking the rights and priveledges of a minority, and then when its ruled as discrimination all of a sudden they want to play the victim card?

 

Merely existing them is equal to the phrase you hear all too often " shoving it down our throats "

 

 

The only thing I've ever seen be shoved down my throat is religious hypocrisy and preachy BS insisting we must all act like THEY act, and how we must all beleove what THEY believe, or they condescendingly look down on us because they think they are superior human beings.

 

 

It makes me vomit in my mouth when people who claim to be a part of religion that stands for tolerance, understanding, forgiveness, and conpassion to nothing but spread hatred, intolerance, discrimination, and bigotry and then walk around like they are Ghandi's descendants.

 

 

Hypocrites. The lot of them.

[GorillaTheater]

"Among the faiths in which gay and lesbian marriage is not sanctioned as a rite: Roman Catholic, Mormon, Southern Baptist, the National Association of Evangelical Churches, Orthodox Judaism, the United Methodist Church"

 

Included among churches that marry same-sex couples: Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations, the Independent Catholic Church --Islamic law forbids homosexuality and prohibits same-sex marriage.

--Buddhism takes no official position on same-sex marriage. __

 

Taken from this

 

Again, I said I should have had a "? mark" in my title. It is merely stating we are on a slippery slope. No histrionics, no whining.

 

I will agree to disagree with you that Jesus didn't and wouldn't have a strong stand against abortion. To kill is wrong, never a solution. A child is a life at conception. I respect all life, it's a basic Christian tenet.

 

Homosexuality is wrong, it's in the Bible as such. That doesn't mean you don't love and treat the person with human dignity, far from it. However that also doesn't mean that you don't pray for lost souls.

 

Marriage is between one man and one woman, unless you want to cherry pick scripture.

 

We are taught to not conform to the world and likely we Christians will be ridiculed for our beliefs. That's okay because Jesus promises that those that seek and thirst for justice, will be satisfied when he returns.

 

If they rent out the facility for marriages between non-Christians, which they did, and for which they received some kind of state tax benefit which I'm not entirely clear on, they can't violate state law by applying legally discriminatory criteria.

 

This is not a situation where they are forcing a Methodist pastor to perform a gay wedding in the actual church itself.

[truthbetold]

If they rent out the facility for marriages between non-Christians, which they did, and for which they received some kind of state tax benefit which I'm not entirely clear on, they can't violate state law by applying legally discriminatory criteria.

 

This is not a situation where they are forcing a Methodist pastor to perform a gay wedding in the actual church itself.

 

Yeah, I see your point. I do respect your perspective Gorilla even though you and I don't see things in the same way much of the time!

 

I guess I still maintain even though these things are isolated and differing circumstances, it's likely we are on a slippery slope. Just look at morals overall and it's started the downward slide in society.

 

There's already talk about why polygamy isn't accepted as a "marriage" if all 3 consent! Um, because It defies what a marriage is! Everyone is quick to say how this or that will never happen, I'm pretty sure previous generations would have had said the same about what's going on now.

 

I am seriously not trying to be a fear monger (I don't "fear" this) or whine, I think it's sad what's society has become, period.

 

btw, the poor girls that are being screamed at, I agree that no one should be screaming or picketing. Violence begets violence and is not an answer. They should be talked to and given the facts and truth and treated with love and kindness by those involved in that movement. I am not out there actively supporting pro life. I pray for God's will, which I know is pro life from all of the teachings. I can't fix the world, I can only pray and do my part in my little corner of it as God guides me.

[GorillaTheater]

I understand the "slippery slope" concerns, but from a legal perspective I'd be more concerned about erosion of a religious organization's current right to take personal religious views into account when making hiring decisions.

 

And I support a religious organization's right to use religious criteria when deciding who they'll marry. I think it would be ridiculous to force a church or mosque to perform gay wedding ceremonies or perform any other wedding that is spiritually objectionable, and a clear violation of the First Amendment. Even though I'm a pro-gay marriage guy.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Just look at morals overall and it's started the downward slide in society.

 

-----------

 

I think it's sad what's society has become, period.

 

Serious question: when was society (any society) moral? At what point in time did our society become so bad? When was this utopian American society that the religious right (in general, not you specifically) keep referring to, and so badly want to go back and live? My best guess is somewhere between 1950-1958, but I don't know for sure because pundits never specify. Or maybe it was when Reagan was President.

 

To quote Billy Joel

We didn't start the fire,

It was always burning

Since the world's been turning.

We didn't start the fire,

No we didn't light it

But we tried to fight it.

 

Christians should know that we (humankind) are fallen. As a result we live in a fallen world. It has always been that way. Every generation for millennia have been shaking their heads and saying "kids today".

 

[truthbetold]

Serious question: when was society (any society) moral? At what point in time did our society become so bad? When was this utopian American society that the religious right (in general, not you specifically) keep referring to, and so badly want to go back and live? My best guess is somewhere between 1950-1958, but I don't know for sure because pundits never specify. Or maybe it was when Reagan was President.

 

To quote Billy Joel

We didn't start the fire,

It was always burning

Since the world's been turning.

We didn't start the fire,

No we didn't light it

But we tried to fight it.

 

Christians should know that we (humankind) are fallen. As a result we live in a fallen world. It has always been that way. Every generation for millennia have been shaking their heads and saying "kids today".

 

 

You raise an excellent point! And very true, actually I like some of the portrayals of Norman Rockwell, the simplicity as well as Thomas Kinkade and the peaceful luminescence he was able to capture. Though I don't have his paintings, as I prefer supporting starving artists paintings of beaches or Italian villas and seascapes, or mosaics, I remember frequenting one of his local galleries after a rough day and getting lost in the images. It was that family and togetherness and home that was captured. With Kinkade you could actually imagine the family gathered by the fireplace and smell the pie baking inside!

 

Yeah, I know a utopia! And I know we are to be in this world but not of it. I'm also well aware people don't change people, the Holy Spirit converts with the help of prayer and God's will. I know we're in a fallen world however I still believe in the conversion of souls for God, especially with prayer as it happens all the time.

[amaysngrace]

Serious question: when was society (any society) moral? At what point in time did our society become so bad? When was this utopian American society that the religious right (in general, not you specifically) keep referring to, and so badly want to go back and live? My best guess is somewhere between 1950-1958, but I don't know for sure because pundits never specify. Or maybe it was when Reagan was President.

 

To quote Billy Joel

We didn't start the fire,

It was always burning

Since the world's been turning.

We didn't start the fire,

No we didn't light it

But we tried to fight it.

 

Christians should know that we (humankind) are fallen. As a result we live in a fallen world. It has always been that way. Every generation for millennia have been shaking their heads and saying "kids today".

 

 

Yep. We are a nation that disobeyed God when we coveted the land and killed the Natives and were totally okay with that.

[janedoe67]

I will agree to disagree with you that Jesus didn't and wouldn't have a strong stand against abortion. To kill is wrong, never a solution. A child is a life at conception. I respect all life, it's a basic Christian tenet.

 

I am pro-life. ALL life. That means that I know there are other ways to speak out about the sanctity of life besides screaming murderer at a scared teenager or throwing blood all over an abortion doctor.

 

There is one incidence in the Bible of Jesus getting angry and making a display. And THAT was in response to the way the RELIGIOUS had turned His house into a crooked business marketplace. Jesus didn't wave angry signs at Zaccheus; he ate with him. It was the Pharisees who got in a wad when Jesus ate and drank with sinners.

 

I know exactly which churches are against abortion and believe the Biblical commentary on homosexuality.

 

But yes, this OP DID misrepresent the facts in this case, and a public pavilion is NOT a church. There is no slippery slope. An argument over business and zoning surrounding a pavilion does NOT mean that First Baptist Church of Insert Town Here is going to be forced to marry gay couples.

 

Again I say, this type of ignorance does more to hurt the cause of Christ than help it. In fact, Jesus' Great Commission is not even in people's minds when they get upset about this. They just want to be "against" something.

 

Try practicing Gal. 5:22, 23, Ephesians 4:2, and don't forget James 2:10 while you're at it.

[truthbetold]

I am pro-life. ALL life. That means that I know there are other ways to speak out about the sanctity of life besides screaming murderer at a scared teenager or throwing blood all over an abortion doctor.

 

There is one incidence in the Bible of Jesus getting angry and making a display. And THAT was in response to the way the RELIGIOUS had turned His house into a crooked business marketplace. Jesus didn't wave angry signs at Zaccheus; he ate with him. It was the Pharisees who got in a wad when Jesus ate and drank with sinners.

 

I know exactly which churches are against abortion and believe the Biblical commentary on homosexuality.

 

But yes, this OP DID misrepresent the facts in this case, and a public pavilion is NOT a church. There is no slippery slope. An argument over business and zoning surrounding a pavilion does NOT mean that First Baptist Church of Insert Town Here is going to be forced to marry gay couples.

 

Again I say, this type of ignorance does more to hurt the cause of Christ than help it. In fact, Jesus' Great Commission is not even in people's minds when they get upset about this. They just want to be "against" something.

 

Try practicing Gal. 5:22, 23, Ephesians 4:2, and don't forget James 2:10 while you're at it.

 

Did you miss the part where I totally agreed with you on another post? You sound really angry. Jesus and scripture in many points talks about how there shouldn't be anger amongst us. We are to be peaceful. We are warned very strongly to not be angry, vengeance is his alone not ours.

 

You must have some serous erroneous beliefs if you are trying to link Catholics with the Pharisees, however I won't deny it hasn't been done before and will continue until he comes back.

 

Gorilla understood what I was saying that it's wrong if it goes to forcing churches. It's not quite there now, but it very well "could" I said there should have been a question mark. It was just commentary, sorry if you thought there was "hate" attached to it. Only sadness that there's not enough love in the world for God.

 

Jesus ate and drank with the sinners to convert them. To preach the proclamation of the kingdom, to repent and sin no more. We are to love the sinner but still hate the sin. Note not hate "the person". My interactions with all I strive to be kind and loving, that's what I'm taught, to love even my enemy and to see Jesus in everyone.

 

I believe that a Christian's first priority should be to "seek first the kingdom of God" aka God's will in their life, all else will be added unto you.

[janedoe67]

You sound really angry.

 

I'm actually not angry. I do get frustrated when part of a story is left untold. And I agree that we have reached a new low as a society...I read Romans 1 sometimes and shudder, to be honest.

 

And I agree that we should practice Matthew 6:33. BUT when we are seeking God, then our eyes are fixed on Him (Hebrews 12:2). A lot of Christians have their eyes fixed more on what they perceive to be wrong with the world than on Jesus and developing an intimate relationship with Him. I think part of that is because it is just plain easier to be the Pharisee in the temple than it is to be the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14)

 

And it was not my intent to make some direct correlation between Catholics and Pharisees. My point was that Jesus strongest words were reserved for the religious and not the lost.

[truthbetold]

I'm actually not angry. I do get frustrated when part of a story is left untold. And I agree that we have reached a new low as a society...I read Romans 1 sometimes and shudder, to be honest.

 

And I agree that we should practice Matthew 6:33. BUT when we are seeking God, then our eyes are fixed on Him (Hebrews 12:2). A lot of Christians have their eyes fixed more on what they perceive to be wrong with the world than on Jesus and developing an intimate relationship with Him. I think part of that is because it is just plain easier to be the Pharisee in the temple than it is to be the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14)

 

And it was not my intent to make some direct correlation between Catholics and Pharisees. My point was that Jesus strongest words were reserved for the religious and not the lost.

 

Oh I agree too! In fact the reason that Jesus had such strong words for the Pharisees were because they were hypocrites. They claimed to care and follow God's commandments, but behind closed doors they were steeped in sin and treating others very badly and not with kindness.

 

I think we can agree those kinds of people exist in all walks of faith. I can understand your frustration though. Some ruin the name of Christianity and shut down dialogue for many to learn more and perhaps have that conversion by the Holy Spirit.

 

I wish people would realize the part of sinning no more is a goal worthy to strive for. It doesn't mean we will be perfect, it means that the grace of God given to us as a gift of the Holy Spirit can change and transform us more to his likeness. Not us, but dying to ourselves and living for him and him through us.

 

Some seem to think because we are sinners we are stuck to just say, "eh I mean well but I'm going to sin anyway because that's how I'm made". That's Satan's great lie and it misses what Jesus taught in the "sin no more with the help of thy grace" We all sin not wanting to, but we're not supposed to be actively trying if we're truly Christians.

 

And of course even striving for that, we're going to fall short and stumble. The closer you get with Jesus though the more the Holy Spirit flows and the ocean of mercy is felt and the graces to overcome are given. At least IME.

[janedoe67]

I agree. I love Philippians 1:6 for that reason. He started working in us, and He will be faithful to complete it. Even Philippians 3 talks about how important it is to press on toward the goal of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.