H strategically staying married for spousal support

[jakrbbt]

I recently learned that H has been to see a divorce lawyer six weeks ago. I can't really blame him for that, it's no secret between us that our marriage is in trouble.

 

I am sure that his lawyer would have advised him that the longer he stays married to me and does not work, the more likely he is to get spousal support (and the longer he'll get it). That is because he is technically the stay-at-home parent.

 

But if you scratch the surface of the stay-at-home arrangement, you see that it really means that he watches our baby son for 3 days while I'm at work, then the other 2 days when I work from home he has our son for about half the time (it used to be less than half, but it's improved). I make up for the work time by never taking a lunch and by working after baby goes to sleep. I have our baby overnight. H sleeps until 10 or 11 4 out of 7 mornings-- though I must say he has made an effort in recent months to be up by 10:30 and used to sleep until at least noon. I do all the dinner prep for our baby, grocery shopping, doctors, baths, buying diapers and clothes et cetera et cetera. The second I get home from work, H leaves the house, wanting to be done for the day. He almost always comes home in time to put baby to bed after I've bathed him. And when he's with baby, he's very sweet to him and keeps him safe and clearly loves him very much. But I think parenting means more than just watching the child, it means setting up the child's future as well.

 

And I think that the point of spousal support is that the stay-at-home theoretically supported the working spouse in their career. In my opinion, the arrangement is hurting my career, bc I'm on double-duty and working late into the night, then having all the overnight wake-ups and doing all the administrative stuff . . . my productivity at work has really slipped. But that won't stop whatever happens in court if we divorce. I guess what I'm saying is, if H is really staying with me for the spousal support, I'd like him to at least make a believable effort toward what the spousal support is all about, i.e., supporting the working spouse in their career. Don't get me wrong, I am all for him getting a job instead-- but he cannot or will not do that.

 

The worst part of the situation is the glaringly obvious lack of affection or attraction, along with false declarations of love. We don't even sleep in the same room--I no longer even go in his room or store my clothes in there.

He practically cringes if I sit next to him. If I come into his room to talk, he might be polite, but then he'll tell me he's going to bed, intimating that it's time for me to leave. He has not looked me in the eye for weeks, maybe months. When he leaves the house after I get home, he doesn't even glance at me first. I know I am quite attractive and I know that he thinks so-- I have lost the baby weight (never had much of it anyway) and haven't aged suddenly or anything, so whatever is going on isn't related to physical appearance.

 

So fine, he isn't attracted to me and doesn't love me-- but he keeps saying "I love you" just when we have enough of a flare-up that it looks like we might split up. He'll come out of his room to give me a hug at night if we haven't seen each other all day, but then he'll just go straight back in his room again. Blech! Just tell me you want to stay married for the 5 or 6 hundred dollars a month you think you'll eventually get, and I'd probably rather work it out contract-wise!

 

For all you who have the opposite-- someone who loves you and is acting like they hate you-- I feel for you too. But would you rather have that than this? Sometimes I would.

 

One major reason I don't want a divorce right now is that I want to keep H on my health insurance. I know, I know. But he isn't a monster, he doesn't know that I can tell he's faking it, and I truly think he doesn't know what to do or how to find work. I think he's afraid of not being able to see his son as much if he goes back to work. And even if he is using me, which I'm not sure is the case, he still needs medical care. He takes some medication for depression for instance and has some other non-debilitating medical issues that definitely need attention.

 

How bad is this situation? He fakes that he loves me so I won't divorce him, I stay married to him so he can have heath insurance even though it means I may have to move later so I can afford spousal support. I would far, far rather clear the air and tell him that I'm fine with staying married just for the baby until he is 2 or 3 and starts day care. But I have tried having a similar conversation in the past and it did NOT go over well, I couldn't even finish it.

 

There is no physical abuse, no shouting insults or throwing things, no infidelity, no alcohol or drug abuse, and very little arguing in front of baby.

[CarrieT]

Why don't you divorce him and let him apply for insurance through the Affordable Care Act?

[jakrbbt]

I'm still worried about where he will stay, how he'll get by, whether he'll become depressed. He's the father of my child, I don't want him to flounder.

 

And I guess, if I'm honest, a part of me still hopes things can get better. But we've tried counseling, talking et c.

 

My other BIG fear is that he waits until it is easier to gain full custody and majority parenting time. But I don't like the idea of divorcing someone preemptively either.

[Yasuandio]

You have a huge, potentially expensive anchor chained to your anckle, and you are asking for advice on a separation and divorce forum. That is the reality of the situation. It is going to suddenly get better, it can only go down from here. You will never respect this guy, and he's already got a head start on you with his divorce research. Sweets, you better wakie, wakie. I'm sorry to tell you so directly, but I think you can handle it:

 

YOU ARE IN DENIAL.

 

Ive been there and done it It is very easy to spot from an outside point of view. When you are in denial, it's possible that you are so busy rationalizing - you might be buried in a tomb of convuluted abstractions that prevent you from believing you are sustaining a loss (or inconvience/disruption to status quo), and/or about to enter the unpleasant phases of the grieving process. Of course, no one wants to face it. It is not a comfort zone - that's for sure. Yas

[ashleyjohn]

I'm still worried about where he will stay, how he'll get by, whether he'll become depressed. He's the father of my child, I don't want him to flounder.

 

And I guess, if I'm honest, a part of me still hopes things can get better. But we've tried counseling, talking et c.

 

My other BIG fear is that he waits until it is easier to gain full custody and majority parenting time. But I don't like the idea of divorcing someone preemptively either.

 

If you think that things are gonna get better with time than you should stay in the marriage. Getting divorce is a complicated process and it gets more complicated with a baby. So, I would suggest you to stay with your H and give some time to the relation.

[jakrbbt]

Ohhhh. Very blunt advice from Yaz, hauntingly ringing true-- and advice in arguably the opposite direction from Ashleyjohn.

 

I was very disturbed by the notion that I am in denial and rationalizing. Yesterday I meditated on that: Is this some period of life that I will look back on one day as the "dark times" that I refused to put an end to as early as I should have?

 

I love my husband and I still don't want to divorce unless it is necessary. I definitely don't want to divorce without some very frank conversations with him first, preferably where we both agree to splitting up, but at least not something I just announce out of the blue. IF it comes to divorce.

 

What I did realize, lying in bed last night with the baby in his crib next to me, thinking hard for hours, was this: I WILL NOT live out my life in an unhealthy relationship. I just won't. It's not going to happen. For that matter, I'd hope my husband would not live out his life in an unhealthy relationship. That means that, at some point, H and I are going to have to either develop healthy dynamics, or cut our losses and decide that we've tried long enough, hard enough, and that it isn't likely to improve.

 

But when is that point? I need a basically healthy relationship (or no relationship), like, yesterday. But I also feel that is is possible we can have one in the future, IF we both work on individual issues. I can't make H go to IC but I can go myself. And I can get us into couples' counseling-- I know he will come to MC with me. I guess that's all I can do for a start. Then if it looks like we're not going to make it, we really will have to stop hobbling along in this unhealthy mess. But how long to give it? Or when in the process?

 

To me, when he retreats into his room and excludes me from the bedroom for more than two years, and refuses to talk 90% of the time, it feels like he is not trying. But I also know that he is miserable and wants things to be better too.

[Yasuandio]

Dear Jkrbbt,

 

Forgive for my bluntness. I only wish someone had been this blunt with me after my husband had avoided intimacy two years straight like yours (be it lack of sex or sleeping in a different room). After a bit more time was wasted in denial - I finially came to the obvious conclusion, which is what I'm trying to help you see. Honey, the writing is not only on the wall, it is in your title.

 

Therefore, let's have a little review. But instead of hiding behind lowercase letters, let us study the Title in Bolded Caps, so ALL fully comprehend situation. Here is the title of your post:

"H IS STRATEGICALLY STAYING MARRIED FOR SPOUSAL SUPPORT"

 

Did I get that right? Does that sound like a good thing to you? You sound like a smart, sophisticated woman, like myself. If your husband is talking to a divorce attorney, what do you think that means? I am going to go with the concept reflected in your TITLE. What about you?

 

Next. Let's discuss the (at least - please correct me if I'm wrong) two year separate bedroom situation. Based on your post, my impression is that this is an unfulfilling marital lifestyle for you. Is that true? If it is, how can that get resolved? The whole thing sounds kinda weird -- actually. Let me explain.

 

On the one hand, I'm you have detailed egregious conduct of your Husband, such as his withdrawal of affections from you for at least two straight years, while you work your GD azz off support him. Concurrently, absent your knowledge or consent, (and most likely funded with your hard earned money), he is paying an attorney for tactical divorce advice on how to bleed you, financially in the future.

 

When I read these details, they were consistent with the title of the thread. I do not think this sounds like it will end happily ever after. Of course he will let you bitch slap him to IC and MC, he has to appear that he's making as effort. However, sweetheart - you MUST look at the actions of a person to determine their true motives. Thus far, what information can you gleen from his actual actions? I do apologize if you found my first post to lack tack - it certainly did. So, perhaps this post will be more helpful.

 

Let us see what ye say, and I keep eye out for you honey. I have been where you are - and I was blind. Yas

Edited May 27, 2014 by Yasuandio

[jakrbbt]

Ah, there's no harm in bluntness Yas, and you weren't tactless at all. Just sort of chillingly spot-on. And it is very comforting to know you'll be keeping an eye out for me.

 

If I look at his actions, that is very painful. I see a person who punishes and rejects me, every night for hundreds of nights, and who puts little effort into our future, and who either doesn't love me or is so enormously angry with me that only the anger matters. Though to be fair, I think he was seeing an attorney in case I might initiate a divorce, since I'm the one supporting us. I'm not sure that changes anything though.

 

I don't like to pay attention to his actions only. They make me feel humiliated and trapped and angry. However, I don't want to be naive. I don't begrudge him any spousal support he'd get-- though it's unlikely he'd get any. We have been married a little over a year and even if a judge did order it after a 2-3 year marriage, which is unlikely, it really wouldn't be much (my income isn't huge) and it would be cancelled out by his ordered child support payments yada yada . . . I don't even care though. I certainly wouldn't take child support from him especially while he's getting on his feet. I just care that I get my baby overnight while he's small, that my husband stays as much in his life as possible, and that we all have a shot at healthier futures.

 

He has been divorced before. He had a very short marriage when he was quite young and they had a baby. During that divorce he seems to have ignored his ex-wife even to the extent of not opposing anything she wanted. I think he just wanted it to be over. Now he is friendly with her whenever they have a reason to communicate, which is rare, and he doesn't disparage her or anything.

 

I knew him for seven years before we got married-- he was a good friend and a good boyfriend, maybe not super dynamic, but laid-back and considerate and personable and sexy and seemingly smitten.

 

Here I am trying to talk myself into some more hope. What do I do right now? Where is there the most promise for a healthy future and what do I do today to start out that way? My plan is to do some MC for 6 months and then call it-- either we're on our way to a viable future or we're ending it.

[Yasuandio]

Get your own attorney, so you will have things up to speed like he does.

 

And remember this famous saying: Actions speak louder that words.

 

Whenever you catch yourself being all "ickey-gooie" look at his actions. Forget the past.

 

I was a all icky-gooie too two decades. Wanna go that before the inevitable divorce? He was in my bed - but all I saw was his backside. He never could me in the eye. In the last years of the marriage he absolutely DENIED me intimacy to the point I gave asking and got myself some toys on the internet. I think that was my lowest piss poor point in the marriage when I willingly took on that sort of substitute activity with no complaint. But he got even worse, and contemptuous.

 

The story was written on the wall - and I just didn't want to read it. My story is pathetic, humiliating - and I am a smart well educated woman with a Ph.D., he didn't even graduate grammar school in his country. I'm ashamed of what I tolerated. Take a look at my early posts. I am just now, literally, post 5 years away from him, beginning to get my head screwed on right - and finally Get It. So I know this denial when I see it.

 

Good for you, honey. You recovered yourself in the last paragraph. That is the first step, is to begin to notice that you sound like a fool. Sorry to put it that way - but it is truth. When you tell this story to your friends, or others - they are all thinking, "Why in the world would She want to live with a spud like that, it doesn't make sense." So - don't tell people about it - it hurts your credibility. That has happened to me in my past career. Yas

[jakrbbt]

Thank you for that, Yas--- I don't want to go 20 years like this. Why do strong, educated women get into situations like these? I'm sure I must have contributed to the downward spiral into my and H's unhealthy relationship.

 

Well, I called a marriage counselor yesterday and am engaging in some phone tag there. I'll post updates. This site will be a good outlet in lieu of blabbing at work about my troubles too--- really good advice about losing credibility.

[BetrayedH]

I think that making a six month commitment to MC is a good way to ensure that you don't have regrets if you eventually file.

 

I might also recommend that you start getting brutally honest with your H about the fact that you will NOT stay in an unhealthy relationship. "We're both going to make a serious and concerted effort in this marriage or I am flat-out outta here." List your dealbreakers and make sure that you mean them AND that he knows you mean them. Feel free to mix good and bad news. "The good news is that I still love you and want to work this out with you. The bad news is that I have limits and if what we're doing continues (sleeping in separate rooms, never talking, avoiding one another) then I am absolutely going to divorce you. Here's what I need to see happen." I believe in ultimatums when it gets to this point. Make it clear exactly what has to start, what has to stop, and what has to continue. And then it is HIS choice to meet those minimum expectations or to get served.

 

And as others have mentioned, get your butt to an attorney. You need to get your footing when it comes to custody and support. It's clear from your first post that you really don't know how it works. Most of the things you mentioned won't amount to a hill of beans. Your H probably has a clue now that he's seen an attorney. Get yourself on equal footing because if you're going to make demands and ultimatums, you better know what you're talking about.

[Yasuandio]

To add one minor point to BetrayH post, (whom I agree with, emphatically), DO NOT EVER make an ultimatum you do not intend to carry out. This is like THE most major ding to your credibility with Husband. In my opinion, I think you should set a date in your head. I think it should unannounced so consequences come as a total surprise, if that happens to be the case.

 

Do absolutely no begging and pleading to go to MC. Just lay down the law - like BetrayedH says, and, actually, since he's got the problem, I'd put the MC on him. Let Husband get MC sorted out and let you know where to be and what time. Then he cannot bitch about the therapist - as he selected them. He has plenty of free time. If he chooses to decline to be proactive on this single request, that demonstrates a lack of commitment, plain and simple. You will be making that clear in you one and only discussion descibed by BetrayedH.

 

Furthermore, there is something that bugs me about how you described his wonderful connection with the child. I think that this, in itself is great. However, what bugs me, it that the second you get home he goes all aloof and walks out of the house. This behavior does not fit the profile of a Stay at Home Childcare Parent, in my humble opinion. Just to be on the safe side, I would invest in a Nannycam. It could pay off Big Time, and I am not speaking about divorce evidence. This guy of yours is plain freaking strange. Find out. Where the heck does he go? Put a GPS on the. Car. Better safe than sorry. (I would do all of these things, including attorney, before he gets the "BetrayedH TALK," so you know what you are up against). Once he knows his skin is on the line - he will cover his tracks (IF there are any tracks to be covered).

 

For your attorney, have documented his comings and goings, and routine. I suggest looking deeper into the phone and computer just for the heck of it - and say nothing. I would also leave a VAR tape recorder securely under the car seat. I wanna know what he is saying about you when you are not around. I smell a rotten fish in Denmark. And I'm usually correct. But I hope not, hon. Yas

 

PS. You are doing great, and getting good feed balanced feedback from another veteran LS member that is not as wicked as I am. This puts you in control of your life now. You are not floating around in limbo anymore - you have some direction. Take what you can from me (beware, I am a very suspicious person, due to my own experiences). Balance and brains.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Yasuandio

[jakrbbt]

As a lawyer myself, I loathe conflict and contentious processes-- I have seen it up close at work and do not care to have it in my personal life. HOWEVER, also as a lawyer, I know that it would be stupid not to visit a family law atty and get some facts, even at this stage. So I did that. I visited one who is experienced, very direct, and highly recommended among members of the bar whose opinions I know enough to trust. He'll be able to tell me the weaknesses of my "case" and he will also be someone my H will likely respect if it comes to a contested divorce.

 

H and I don't have assets together, we're not on each other's bank accounts, and neither of us has acquired much at all in our short marriage. We rent rather than own our place. And yes, I did not expect those facts or opinions about who does more chores and childcare to amount to much in a courtroom-- it's just that I wanted H to step up as a matter of fairness if he's only staying with me for financial reasons. But that's bc I am still focused on the no-divorce present. I still hope there will not be a divorce, but divorce = better than current situation dragging on too long.

 

Our state has a pretty set calculation for child support, and the attorney I visited plugged in various and sundry hypos, while telling me how likely they were and why, so that I could prepare for the best-and worst-case scenarios. In a nutshell, even the worst-case scenario for me (barring bizarrely unlikely ones) is not that bad. I may have to move or take on a roommate, but courts factor child care expenses into the support calculation and they don't just take away parenting time bc the parent will have to use child care. Mandatory child custody mediation is free and so are classes that teach parents basic skills for minimizing trauma on the child (e.g., disparaging each other in front of child). By far the most likely two scenarios are 1) I don't pay spousal support, and either H is ordered child support (which I could waive if that seemed best) or no one owes child support bc 50/50 parenting time; or 2) I owe some tax-deductible spousal support but H owes very close to the same amount of non-tax-deductible child support, in which case I come out ahead or we could do a settlement for something that is more even.

 

I am more worried about having the talk with H. He won't respond well to an ultimatum any more than (I admit) I would. The absolute last thing he wants is to have me tell him he is doing something "wrong" and should change if he wants to keep the marriage. I've tried telling him in the past, there's nothing "wrong" with wanting to be alone all the time or not work much or sleep in late, but that doesn't mean another person has to live with those things. Even that, he didn't like.

 

When I ask him what I am doing that he'd like me to change, so we could feel equal efforts are being made, his answer logically confounds the situation: He wants me to stop thinking or saying that I want him to do anything differently. That's the only thing! But that puts the whole business in static. (Plus I tried that for 3 weeks anyway, and he didn't notice and was no happier.)

 

Therefore, I am going to have to get some serious skills in asserting myself in a way he can at least respond to, even if it's not the response I'd prefer.

 

But once one person raises the specter of divorce, it could end all efforts. H is definitely more likely to stop trying if he thinks his efforts might fail. If one spouse says "these things have to change OR ELSE I file for divorce," some opouses would be the type to make huge efforts even if at the last minute. Others are the type to say, "Well it already looks like possible divorce, my efforts would probably fail anyway, so I'm not going to put in the effort." H is the latter type. And let me be clear: He would feel that way EVEN IF (in fact, especially if) he really really did not want the ultimatum to happen. Sort of the, "failure would be so devastating, I'm just going to let fate take over instead" philosophy I'm sure we've all experienced a bit of.

 

I don't know how to deal with that, logically, psycho-logically and negotiation-wise. And again, I'm sure he isn't the only one who needs to make big changes. But I have to find out which ones to make, bc "stop having needs and expectations" is not a possible or healthy change for me.

Edited May 30, 2014 by jakrbbt

[BetrayedH]

Glad you have some decent footing on the legal stuff. I think you're right to not really have big financial concerns about spousal support and assets since you've had such a short marriage and kept things relatively separate. I have a feeling that the big question will get down to child custody. Once a spouse realizes that the more they have their children, the more they receive in child support then they start fighting for more custody. If he's been a "stay at home Dad," then he may have a bit of a leg up in negotiations/court but you're also the Mom and can argue that you do the other 50%. Of course, I can't predict how your settlement process would pan out - just saying that custody seems to be the one unknown and significant variable in your sitch.

 

As for how to approach your H, I wish I could tell you how to navigate the scenario you described. For lack of a better term, his position seems bizarre. I'm going to guess that you've tried to accomodate his "just don't nag me" request but yet, here you still are. What comes to mind for me is that you really cannot control others; you can only control yourself. You can't control his weird requests and positions. All you can do is clearly communicate your own. Try not to think of the ultimatums as any sort of manipulation or trying to steer him in any particular direction. You almost seem to want to avoid communicating what you need because then he may just choose to throw in the towel. You're changing your dealbreakers in an attempt to change the outcome. Really, the ultimatum is just plain honest communication and then the ball is in his court. If he wants to react bizarrely, that's on him. I wouldn't let that change your dealbreakers.

 

Ok, I'm rambling now. Hopefully something of value was in there.

[jakrbbt]

You're changing your dealbreakers in an attempt to change the outcome.

 

You know what? --- BINGO. That is exactly what I am doing. I do not want to take "No" for an answer, because I fear divorce even with our relatively low stakes.

 

If H fights for custody primarily bc of child support, I'd rather pay money and keep my baby overnight. Little guy needs me overnight. He won't do well going a whole day without me, because he's so small and we're so bonded. And he won't do well seeing me in the evening but then being sent away for bedtime.

 

I also don't think H would realistically want majority time/custody were there no financial consideration, bc, even though he definitely wants to be very involved, he is so explicit about being spent at the end of the day and he wants large amounts of impenetrable alone time, plus he dislikes dealing with all the logistics and administrative stuff involved. I have often reflected that he is the perfect bachelor. For him, hog-heaven would be: scraping by with part-time work, living on a fixer-upper boat, and spending all his time doing hobbies, camping and playing cards with his guy-friends. Nothing wrong with that, but primary custody and parenting time would get in the way.

 

One thing that gives me some hope of future settlement: Neither of us has the chunk of money an atty would require upfront as retainer. Both of us would stand to pay an atty at least half of whatever we'd gain or save over the custody settlement. AND courts won't want to separate child from either of us too much if possible. Given all that, we'd probably both rather settle through free mediation and that makes it more likely that we end up closer to no-gain, no-loss financially.

 

In my experience, ppl become less reasonable when there is something like an affair involved. One of many big reasons to avoid even an emotional affair or flirtation, even though we aren't historically a very jealous couple. There's none of that on my end and if there is any on his end, I don't even want to know (unless of course we're going to stay together). It wouldn't change things legally anyway.

 

I guess my whole point is, I have to learn to take his possible "No" for an answer. Then I won't change the true dealbreakers, the things that are needs rather than wants. To take "No" for an answer, I want to know what it will look like. Even if I'm wrong, I want to know in my head what I think the next steps will be. I am petrified of the emotional and psychological aspect of becoming a single mother and changing all of our lives so hugely. Isn't there anyone who gets divorced, has a pretty non-contentious process, and gets to a place that is happy and healthy afterward?

[Yasuandio]

I have an idea buried in this story. Maybe more than one.

 

It happened to a housewife I was friends with for a short time. Short because she had some really crazy issues it took me awhile to see - because I am not fully clear -due to the amount of medication I take. Also, it was a very lonely time in my life, and I wanted a friend so bad.

 

Anyway, she lived nearby, I know, I know, I know, this is crazy on my part - I met her when we were both at a psych hospital. My lesson was, do not make friends with people at psych hospitals. She was an extreemly wealthy woman (and had tons of cigs). Cigs are like GOLD in the intake section of psche ward. "WE" were running the show there, and having a great time. I hadn't been in a psych ward 15 years, and it was a riot teaching her the ropes. So we became pals - since she had some husband issues too. (note. I was there simply to get my medications straightened out and a really problematic dosage on BP meds due to extreme weight loss it appeared).

 

Once we got out, we started hanging out at her place - which was a mansion, at least a few million dollars. The founder of K-Mart had a home in her

neighborhood. The hallway to the guest bath was about as large as my first floor - and I have a really nice house. Here place was filled with original arts, and made my beautiful original art collection look like it was stuffed in a cracker box. I kinda became her slave, and doggies and me packed up and spent weeks with her.

 

The husband started providing here a specific amount of money per week - it added up to $6000 a month, (Geez, I was only getting $1000 on top of my own disability income). And she was bitching about that - and had no bills! But he didn't budge - he stayed consistent. He also put a charging limit on all her credit cards - that made her really mad. Next thing you know, the kids and the Dad bought her a brand new SUV (as the lease was up on the Mercedes she was driving). The guy got a consisten "system" going, that seemed to keep her alive at her present weight of 275 pounds.

 

A little at a time - she started putting 2 plus 2 together, as I was doing myself - cause she was getting weird. Suddenly, she became suspitious that her husband was trying to EMANCIPATE her. That is exactly what he was doing. That is when she really lost her marbles.

 

I would go home or out for awhile, and then learn after the fact that she had done some dumb thing. Her husband kept the kids away while she was in the house, of course. The dad had gotten the young son a new dog, and one afternoon while they were away, she took a taxi, and relieved the housekeeper of this new dog without permission. The kid freaked out, so she brought the dog back with another taxi. Attorneys were involved by this time. Next thing I know, a call comes in from her council saying that due to her death threats, the Judge has ordered her out of the home. She told me it would be a few days, that was BS. The Sheriff was there the morning waking us up! And she took the calls from the Sheriff and lied - said her and I were at the doctor. Oh crap. Husband gave sherriff ok to take door down with chain saw, and man, I told - I was outta there. I got my dog and my and GTF otta there, while Sherriff went for chainsaw.

 

She called my place, cussing the Sheirriff in the background, to stay with me. I allowed. After a couple day, and her damn pot-smoking, I was getting PO'd. She started suicide talk, and I think she drugged me. I woke in my bed the next. Everyone was was trying to find her. Eventuall she was found in a motel, half dead with overdoes, feces and puke all over the place, and she had fallen asleep and suffocated one of her little rescue dogs. That was the end of that relationship.

 

It is a very long bizarre story I shared. Kinda shows you some of the nonsense I've been through with getting accustomed to bi-polar 2, the direct result of an EXTREME SHOCK I endured from the actions of my former spouse. Decades of unfullfilment ride your soul, my darling. You are an attorney, and I think I told you I was a Professor most of my life with a hard earned Ph.D., from Ohio State University. Can you imagine that A few years back, once I developed this condition, that my judgment was this screwed up? Can you see a woman like me sitting on the floor of someone else's house trying to hide from a Sherriff? This lady was steeling my drugs too!

 

Now, you seem very calm, cool and collected. I was like that throughout my career. In fact, I was so into my career, and internation travel presenting my research as a keynote speaker all over the world - so busy, I wasn't thinking long term about this guy. And he was a little Nazi. But - I swallowed it, and swallowed it, two decades worth. Not only do I have now a serious mental illness, I have a bad and I mean BAD Anger Management Problem. My entire life I have been the sweetest, kindest, thoughtful person without a mean thing to say. I sincerely believe, staying in this marriage for 27 years has been the major factor in my disability and current struggles with anger. I'm past the Nazi. The anger is a different animal that shows a whole new personality I do not like.

 

So --

 

1. I showed you crazy crap I got myself into.

2. I gave you a demo on how you might, in a subtle way, begin to "emancipate" your husband as an alternative to the Ultimatum you say may be useless.

3. I gave you real life evidence how a bad marriage can hurt you mental health.

4. On the long term, by not getting angry now, I showed you how you might get angry later in life - and that my dear, is a physical health issue (I now have extremely high blood pressure 180/90 untreated, and take four pills per day for BP. During my ending life, my BP has run under or low).

 

I hope this crazy story was entertaining and helpful at the same time. Forgive me, I am running a little manic right now - and that is reflected in the round about thinking style in my post. But I mean well, honey. I gotta stay away a few days. But maybe I should keep this post - I think I hit some right here. Take care of yourself. Yas

 

PS. Emancipation could be justified by the need to begin a college find for your child. Education is not getting any cheaper these day - you have to start putting money aside now. During husband's free time, he can phase into a paying job to assist in this endevor - doesn't that sound reasonable? And money's, and mommy is tired. Cut back a little. Spend some quality time being a mom yourself. Can you take a leave? What the heck? Go to the doctor, make sure you are not under more stress than you think. Plenty of women drop dead from heart attacks at a young age in high pressure positions, like yourself. What has been your rewards for your success? These are some basic common sense considerations.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Yasuandio
Spelling, grammar, and a PS

[BetrayedH]

You know what? --- BINGO. That is exactly what I am doing. I do not want to take "No" for an answer, because I fear divorce even with our relatively low stakes.

 

If H fights for custody primarily bc of child support, I'd rather pay money and keep my baby overnight. Little guy needs me overnight. He won't do well going a whole day without me, because he's so small and we're so bonded. And he won't do well seeing me in the evening but then being sent away for bedtime.

 

I also don't think H would realistically want majority time/custody were there no financial consideration, bc, even though he definitely wants to be very involved, he is so explicit about being spent at the end of the day and he wants large amounts of impenetrable alone time, plus he dislikes dealing with all the logistics and administrative stuff involved. I have often reflected that he is the perfect bachelor. For him, hog-heaven would be: scraping by with part-time work, living on a fixer-upper boat, and spending all his time doing hobbies, camping and playing cards with his guy-friends. Nothing wrong with that, but primary custody and parenting time would get in the way.

 

One thing that gives me some hope of future settlement: Neither of us has the chunk of money an atty would require upfront as retainer. Both of us would stand to pay an atty at least half of whatever we'd gain or save over the custody settlement. AND courts won't want to separate child from either of us too much if possible. Given all that, we'd probably both rather settle through free mediation and that makes it more likely that we end up closer to no-gain, no-loss financially.

 

In my experience, ppl become less reasonable when there is something like an affair involved. One of many big reasons to avoid even an emotional affair or flirtation, even though we aren't historically a very jealous couple. There's none of that on my end and if there is any on his end, I don't even want to know (unless of course we're going to stay together). It wouldn't change things legally anyway.

 

I guess my whole point is, I have to learn to take his possible "No" for an answer. Then I won't change the true dealbreakers, the things that are needs rather than wants. To take "No" for an answer, I want to know what it will look like. Even if I'm wrong, I want to know in my head what I think the next steps will be. I am petrified of the emotional and psychological aspect of becoming a single mother and changing all of our lives so hugely. Isn't there anyone who gets divorced, has a pretty non-contentious process, and gets to a place that is happy and healthy afterward?

 

All good thoughts. And I'm glad at least one sentence out of my ramblings resonated with you.

 

My gut says you really need to list your dealbreakers. They don't have to be accusatory. For example, "I won't continue to live in a 'separate bedroom' situation. I need a commitment from you to resolve our intimacy issues in a reasonable time frame." As you mentioned, make sure they're not wants but true needs. Requiring MC might be another good one (don't recall what you may have said earlier about his receptiveness to counseling).

 

As for custody, I got 50/50 (each have half the week, alternating Wednesdays). I believe it's best for the kids to have it that way (stats agree) and both of you can still have a single life. Honestly, it's actually easier to have a break for a few days at a time. But people settle on all kinds of options.

 

As yes, it is possible to have an amiable divorce. Mine was pretty gawd-awful but, as you mentioned, infidelity was the big factor. It's possible that you can essentially do free mediation but just don't count on it. I borrowed my $1500 retainer and spent probably $5k altogether. We paid for a 3rd attorney to mediate. I can say that I've seen other people use those free mediators and sadly, the general rule is that you get what you pay for. But it really gets down to how much you two agree. My ex wouldn't agree to 50/50 and I wouldn't accept less so we were stuck. It took 6 hours to get her to 50/50 and another 4 hours to do the other logistics. Some people obviously do much better. Others do worse and end up in court with a judge deciding.

 

But you definitely have to get over your fears of being a single Mom. Honestly, it ain't that big of a deal. The emotional part (accepting that the marriage failed, etc) was the harder part for me. The rest was finding an apartment and buying furniture from Ikea. I allowed my wife to establish the residence for the kids (for the purposes of school district) but we both agreed not to move more than 30 miles from the marital home. That gives everyone some stability. Anyway, it sounds like you do need to think about next steps and what would work well for both of you should it get to that point.

 

Good luck.

[contact1]

I'm rather surprised, given that your husband doesn't work, and you do, and he is considered the "stay at home parent" (I understand you are still doing a lot, but I'm trying to view this from a view of one person working, another not to watch the kid) that in the end it comes out to be 50/50 according to your attorney. Yet I get this irking feeling that if the roles were reversed, a woman being the stay at home parent, and a man working, it would be much more one-sided on her part. I'm not a lawyer and definitely not a family law expert, but the predicted outcome does bother me quite a bit.

[contact1]

On your topic though, it is good you have seen an attorney and it is unfortunate how this is resulting in your marriage. However when someone is out of love, they may go to extremes to get what financial stability they can, because well they are not in love anymore and may just not care what happens to the other person. I wish the best through this.

[Yasuandio]

Thank you for that, Yas--- I don't want to go 20 years like this. Why do strong, educated women get into situations like these? I'm sure I must have contributed to the downward spiral into my and H's unhealthy relationship.

 

Well, I called a marriage counselor yesterday and am engaging in some phone tag there. I'll post updates. This site will be a good outlet in lieu of blabbing at work about my troubles too--- really good advice about losing credibility.

 

I never did answer this. Probably because I'm in denial myself about it. This is my take. I have read every possible thing there out there to understand what happened to me, and to comprehend the personality type I was dealing with - some real in-depth scholary material. One book, entitled, "Malignant Self Love," by Sam Vatkin, took me two or more years to fully and completely digest. Here is my conclusion.

 

There is one topic, I came across frequently, that I avoided like the plague. I just was not interested in reading about. Simply, I figured the title of the subjuct said it all - so why read and study it? Not interested! This topic is called Co-Dependence. I still have not investigated nor discussed with my therapist. So I know very little on the subject. This could give you a clue to answer you question. Yas

[beach]

Since your H doesn't work and has made it perfectly clear he doesn't intend to change a thing - any CHANGE must come from only YOU.

 

 

He likes it this way - you don't. Since he's not going to change it ---> what action are YOU planning to CHANGE that makes things different than they are now?

 

Develop a plan on paper. Write out what needs to be done by YOU to execute THAT plan and start taking ACTIONS that set that plan into MOTION.

 

Doing things the same will get you the same results.

 

What can YOU DO DIFFERENTLY?

 

When YOU change - it changes things FOR him too! :-)

[jakrbbt]

I'm rather surprised, given that your husband doesn't work, and you do, and he is considered the "stay at home parent" (I understand you are still doing a lot, but I'm trying to view this from a view of one person working, another not to watch the kid) that in the end it comes out to be 50/50 according to your attorney. Yet I get this irking feeling that if the roles were reversed, a woman being the stay at home parent, and a man working, it would be much more one-sided on her part. I'm not a lawyer and definitely not a family law expert, but the predicted outcome does bother me quite a bit.

 

If a person puts a child in day care for 8 hours, those 8 hours are still considered to be a part of that person's parenting time-- parents have a privacy right in using nannies, child care et c and it doesn't mean they're not parenting. Courts don't give out the kids as commodities to whichever parent has put in the most time (though in our case, we're about 50/50 even if you don't count overnight care which is 100% me). Instead, they look at best interest of child, who is bonded to both parents in most cases. Otherwise, both parents would have a disincentive to work, AND the unemployed parent would have a child they can't financially care for (child support isn't THAT much, unless someone is wealthy). Usually both parents work after a divorce, so looking at who worked and who didn't work before the divorce won't really inform the parenting time for afterward. But I'd like to make it so we can each get our son on as many of our non-work days as possible and have him 50/50 with me overnight while he's tiny. He has a very strong bond with both, but the maternal bond is more needy, more physical, and more pronounced when he's scared or in the middle of the night.

[jakrbbt]

I never did answer this. Probably because I'm in denial myself about it. This is my take. I have read every possible thing there out there to understand what happened to me, and to comprehend the personality type I was dealing with - some real in-depth scholary material. One book, entitled, "Malignant Self Love," by Sam Vatkin, took me two or more years to fully and completely digest. Here is my conclusion.

 

There is one topic, I came across frequently, that I avoided like the plague. I just was not interested in reading about. Simply, I figured the title of the subjuct said it all - so why read and study it? Not interested! This topic is called Co-Dependence. I still have not investigated nor discussed with my therapist. So I know very little on the subject. This could give you a clue to answer you question. Yas

 

Ahhh yes, I bought a book called "Codependent No More" and devoured it during many winter bathtimes, then chucked it so H wouldn't see it. I do think it applies, but it was so much to absorb. I really should re-read it, good reminder. In my (probably flawed) opinion, H is passive-aggressive and I am co-dependent.

 

We have MC set for next week. I kind of dread it. H will use it to make himself the winner and ask the MC to fix the situation for him. I have a friend who thinks MC is a "farce" because both members just use it to try to convince the counselor to "fix" the other one. But it's our one recourse.

[beach]

If a person puts a child in day care for 8 hours, those 8 hours are still considered to be a part of that person's parenting time-- parents have a privacy right in using nannies, child care et c and it doesn't mean they're not parenting. Courts don't give out the kids as commodities to whichever parent has put in the most time (though in our case, we're about 50/50 even if you don't count overnight care which is 100% me). Instead, they look at best interest of child, who is bonded to both parents in most cases. Otherwise, both parents would have a disincentive to work, AND the unemployed parent would have a child they can't financially care for (child support isn't THAT much, unless someone is wealthy). Usually both parents work after a divorce, so looking at who worked and who didn't work before the divorce won't really inform the parenting time for afterward. But I'd like to make it so we can each get our son on as many of our non-work days as possible and have him 50/50 with me overnight while he's tiny. He has a very strong bond with both, but the maternal bond is more needy, more physical, and more pronounced when he's scared or in the middle of the night.

 

Your H doesn't work because he's not forced to work.

 

I bet if he had no money and was hungry he'd work.

 

 

You've made it easy for him to not work - and today might be the best time to tell him to go get a job that brings home good money.

[jakrbbt]

Since your H doesn't work and has made it perfectly clear he doesn't intend to change a thing - any CHANGE must come from only YOU.

 

 

He likes it this way - you don't. Since he's not going to change it ---> what action are YOU planning to CHANGE that makes things different than they are now?

 

Develop a plan on paper. Write out what needs to be done by YOU to execute THAT plan and start taking ACTIONS that set that plan into MOTION.

 

Doing things the same will get you the same results.

 

What can YOU DO DIFFERENTLY?

 

When YOU change - it changes things FOR him too! :-)

 

But what what what can I do? I just don't have a clue, and i don't want to make a mess of things. I wish someone had a step-by-step for me, but every situation is different.

 

I don't think H really likes it this way. He's not luxuriating and enjoying his reign-- he's miserable and trying to regain some power he thinks he's lost. I truly think he believes he can't work. He has a very common learning disability that I think his school system in childhood dealt with poorly. To this day he is amazed that he got into a state university, even though he is clearly much more intelligent than your average university student. In my opinion, he thinks he's not capable of half the things he is, and doesn't want to try. I have to accept that about him and stop making him feel even more inadequate than he does. When I try to complement and encourage him, he really balks at it.

 

You're right I can change only me. One of the main points in the codependency book if I remember.

 

Thank you so much everyone for all the replies so far-- I am so calmed by just knowing others are hearing my story and putting an oar in.