18yrs is enough

[giotto]

Just go, Sparty, 18 years is long enough... it will never be fixed. You have my sympathy and my support...

[Sparty97]

I see you've been repeatedly flippant and argumentative with my posts.

 

It's cool. You don't have to participate in any meaningful discussion with me. I just wonder, if this is how you treat people trying to help you, how must you treat your wife?

 

Best of luck.

 

You may consider my post flip, but I consider yours presumptuous. I was simply making the point that "God" does not play a role in everyone's relationships.

[Sparty97]

A polite response would be, "Oh, I don't believe in God, but thank you".

 

No, the OP had to respond in a flippant way. Anyway, the comment about God really wasn't central to my post...the OP made it a big deal. If he doesn't believe, no need to say anything at all.

 

A polite post would not have assumed that the OP is a believer. For this reason I find it is necessary (as an atheist) to point out that I am a non-believer. People allow religion/god to rule their actions. I do not.

[cocorico]

I don't think there is any point in waiting for the anniversary. It simply adds another nail in the coffin lid. After 18, why not stay until 20... or 25..... or whichever anniversary requires you to give her a golden palace on a hill of unicorns. If you are certain you want to end it, do it now.

 

I agree that counselling can help - not to save the M, since you have no faith in her undertakings and would yourself likely not be invested in wanting to save it - but as a way of ending things with least animosity and an easier transition for your son. But you would need to be clear to both the counsellor and your W that that was your aim in counselling, so as not to generate false hope.

[oldshirt]

. Sex like everything in a marriage can be fixed with calm rational conversation.

 

 

 

I agree with a number of things you have said in your post but this idea that people have that all you have to do is talk about it and things will be better is is DEAD WRONG!

 

"Converstion" does fix crap. I can have conversations about being a millionaire all day every day and it won't put one single dollar in my pocket. The same thing is true with sex. You can talk about it untill you are blue in the face but it doesn't fix one dang thing.

 

Sparky has said he HAS addressed it multiple times and each she has said, "OK, I'll be sexy now..." and where has it got them????

 

Talk is cheap, only actions and behaviors matter.

 

I can tell some gal I will grow a penis that's a foot long and thick as a beer can that's so hard it can poke a hole through 3/4

[oldshirt]

. Sex like everything in a marriage can be fixed with calm rational conversation.

 

 

 

I agree with a number of things you have said in your post but this idea that people have that all you have to do is talk about it and things will be better is is DEAD WRONG!

 

"Converstion" does fix crap. I can have conversations about being a millionaire all day every day and it won't put one single dollar in my pocket. The same thing is true with sex. You can talk about it untill you are blue in the face but it doesn't fix one dang thing.

 

Sparky has said he HAS addressed it multiple times and each she has said, "OK, I'll be sexy now..." and where has it got them????

 

Talk is cheap, only actions and behaviors matter.

 

I can tell some gal I will grow a penis that's a foot long and thick as a beer can that's so hard it can poke a hole through 3/4 inch plywood and can pound her like a jackhammer for 8 hours straight untill she has so many orgasms she has to be hospitalized for exhaustion and dehydration, but that don't mean a thing because it's just talk. Talk without actions is just wasted breath.

 

You can't talk a person into desiring you or wanting to have sex with you. The roadblock is either with you or with them. If they have some kind of issue that's preventing them from having a normal sexual response, they have to fix it. If there is something about you that is turning them off, you have to fix that.

 

Yes it will take discussing it to get to that point, but once you're there, it will take actions and behaviors and changing your habits and patterns to make any difference.

 

Words change nothing.

[DKT3]

I agree with a number of things you have said in your post but this idea that people have that all you have to do is talk about it and things will be better is is DEAD WRONG!

 

"Converstion" does fix crap. I can have conversations about being a millionaire all day every day and it won't put one single dollar in my pocket. The same thing is true with sex. You can talk about it untill you are blue in the face but it doesn't fix one dang thing.

 

Sparky has said he HAS addressed it multiple times and each she has said, "OK, I'll be sexy now..." and where has it got them????

 

Talk is cheap, only actions and behaviors matter.

 

I can tell some gal I will grow a penis that's a foot long and thick as a beer can that's so hard it can poke a hole through 3/4

 

The "RIGHT" conversation not just a conversation. If I'm upset and I start talking to my wife with a raised tone and aggresstion she will likely shut down or go on the attack herself. If I ask a question and don't LISTEN to the anwser we got nowhere.

 

Maybe like a lot of women out there she doesn't feel like he is a selfless attentive lover, over time she may have got the "what for, what do I get out of it"

 

My mother, yes my mother, once told me if you don't make sex enjoyable for your wife she may feel like its no different then cleaning the toliet, just something else she has to do around the house.

 

Having the right conversation could uncover that, not saying its the case with this OP.

[alwayshere]

The "RIGHT" conversation not just a conversation. If I'm upset and I start talking to my wife with a raised tone and aggresstion she will likely shut down or go on the attack herself. If I ask a question and don't LISTEN to the anwser we got nowhere.

 

Maybe like a lot of women out there she doesn't feel like he is a selfless attentive lover, over time she may have got the "what for, what do I get out of it"

 

My mother, yes my mother, once told me if you don't make sex enjoyable for your wife she may feel like its no different then cleaning the toliet, just something else she has to do around the house.

 

Having the right conversation could uncover that, not saying its the case with this OP.

 

Regardless of what one marriage "approach" in particular says...NO, this isn't a matter of "if you do it RIGHT it will work."

 

Sometimes people just WON'T meet their spouse's needs, and it isn't because the spouse didn't do it "right."

[spookysonata]

Look, sit her down and be bald. "I'm miserable because of x y and z, and if things don't radically change, I'm going to file for divorce."

 

If that doesn't get results, nothing will and you can leave with a clear conscience. I'm betting you haven't been THAT direct with her yet.

[Snowflower]

 

About 3 months ago I started to get my fitness and health back on track after a recent slide. I have lost nearly 30lbs and I am feeling and looking good. I have been getting hit on left and right at work and at the gym, it feels great but it also lets me know what I am missing.

 

 

 

Hi Sparty, okay so you started working out and getting in shape about 3 months ago.

 

And then you post the bolded a little later.

 

So she has no obligation to stick to her vows? I am not hitting the gym to attract women, but to improve my health. The other is simply a bi product. I was actually hoping it would attract her.

 

Well, it's only been a few months, so what has changed? At first it seems (I could be wrong) like you hit the gym in a vain, last ditch attempt to get your wife's attention/attraction? Am I reading this right?

 

You seem pretty pissed off, and rightly so.

 

Let me say this, at year 18 of my marriage, my husband would have said some pretty similar things and I was in your wife's shoes. If you're interested, I can try to give some ideas from my perspective (that of your wife)--not to make you feel bad or tell you're wrong for what you're feeling but just from someone who has BTDT. I nearly lost my marriage and learned some very painful lessons.

 

I try to help others (either spouse) who seem to be in the same dilemma.

 

However, some of your answers here are pretty condescending (IMO) and to other posters on this thread. They, like me, are just trying to help. So, please do not respond to me in a flippant manner.

[beatcuff]

... Each time she has said she will make efforts only to go back on her word.

 

(random thoughts)

 

i think the above quote sums up your relationship: its all on her and ALWAYS her fault.

 

you don't like IC/MC because --- well its evident any poster you disagree with you 'bash'.

 

you ASSUME she knows what is in your head (not really your fault, most do).

 

i believe your recent weight loss has changed your outlook/expectations (BTW what have you done in those prior years), after 17+ years i think W deserves a 'last chance'

 

i find it curious as well the area you posted (not separations section).

[soccerrprp]

I've been thinking a little about this thread. I have a tremendous respect for the institution of marriage. I also place a high value on certain occasions which include wedding anniversaries and to my best ability, birthdays. When I support someone proceeding towards divorce, there are only 2-3 reasons for doing so. For me, cheating is a non-negotiable reason for divorce. There is clear premeditation involved no matter what the state of mind. The other is for reasons that involve irreconcilable differences that are fundamental to the health and foundation of any relationship. This last one is a little more subjective, but if you've done all you could over a period of time and one party is unwilling to change, it's time to end it.

 

It should be noted that for those of you who are religious (Christian), scriptures allow for two specific instances where divorce is tolerated: 1. Immorality (eg. cheating) 2. When a non-believer abandons or leaves a believer.

 

Anyway, if I were happily married and an anniversary were approaching, it would be a great tiime for celebration. Another opportunity to reinforce my love for my wife. That day would be made special, a time to be closer, more intimate with the woman I'm celebrating with. Saying that, it would be inconceivable for me to minimize the significance of that day by pretending it's more than it is. It is a day to be honored, celebrated. Whether you end it before or on or whatever, makes no difference. For the OP, it is just another day, not a day of any significance.

 

OP, just remember not to add any more significance to your anniversary. No mixed signals to her or anyone else.

[Sparty97]

i think the above quote sums up your relationship: its all on her and ALWAYS her fault.

 

-I have made a host of efforts over the years. She has not (other than words). Sorry if that makes it sound like I am blaming her, but I guess I am.

 

you don't like IC/MC because --- well its evident any poster you disagree with you 'bash'.

 

-I don't like it because I do not believe it works and have never seen evidence that it does.

 

you ASSUME she knows what is in your head (not really your fault, most do).

 

-Many times I have told her what is in my head.

 

i believe your recent weight loss has changed your outlook/expectations (BTW what have you done in those prior years), after 17+ years i think W deserves a 'last chance'

 

-Another last chance? How many of those should I give? Do I wait until I a 50? 60?

 

i find it curious as well the area you posted

 

-This is the area of the forum I am familiar with. Don't read too much into it.

[Sparty97]

Hi Sparty, okay so you started working out and getting in shape about 3 months ago.

 

And then you post the bolded a little later.

 

 

 

Well, it's only been a few months, so what has changed? At first it seems (I could be wrong) like you hit the gym in a vain, last ditch attempt to get your wife's attention/attraction? Am I reading this right?

 

You seem pretty pissed off, and rightly so.

 

Let me say this, at year 18 of my marriage, my husband would have said some pretty similar things and I was in your wife's shoes. If you're interested, I can try to give some ideas from my perspective (that of your wife)--not to make you feel bad or tell you're wrong for what you're feeling but just from someone who has BTDT. I nearly lost my marriage and learned some very painful lessons.

 

I try to help others (either spouse) who seem to be in the same dilemma.

 

However, some of your answers here are pretty condescending (IMO) and to other posters on this thread. They, like me, are just trying to help. So, please do not respond to me in a flippant manner.

 

My apologies for seeming condescending. I do that as a defense mechanism when I feel I am being condescended to myself. I actually take great offense to the notion that everyone is a christian as was assumed by another poster and this kind of led me down that path.

[Sparty97]

Look, sit her down and be bald. "I'm miserable because of x y and z, and if things don't radically change, I'm going to file for divorce."

 

If that doesn't get results, nothing will and you can leave with a clear conscience. I'm betting you haven't been THAT direct with her yet.

 

 

In our many discussions about our sex life she actually asked me point blank if a lack of sex would make me think about divorce. I told her I had already thought about it. Pretty direct.

[bwright42tx]

I would do it before the anniversary. Why have a false celebration?

 

You've been unhappy so long, I'm glad to see you doing something about it. Good luck with this next chapter.

 

I agree with this, don't have a false celebration.....

 

However if you are willing to give it one more try, your anniversary may be a good opportunity to start fresh with one last try.

 

I'm not sure what your typical anniversary celebrations look like, but if they've mostly been lackluster, maybe it's a good time to let her know you can'

t keep going on like this. Don't even "blame" her, just set some expectations of what you feel is missing and what you need in the relationship if it's going to last until 20 years.

[bwright42tx]

In our many discussions about our sex life she actually asked me point blank if a lack of sex would make me think about divorce. I told her I had already thought about it. Pretty direct.

 

I would lay an ultimatum on the table, extremely clear and direct. I will divorce you before our next anniversary if things don't improve, here is what I expect, let me know what I need to do to help us get there.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I would lay an ultimatum on the table, extremely clear and direct. I will divorce you before our next anniversary if things don't improve, here is what I expect, let me know what I need to do to help us get there.

 

Sure just like the old saying

 

Q: What kills a woman's sex drive?

 

A: Her Wedding Cake....

 

Sure give it a shot, but I think counseling (IC & MC) is needed.

 

As for Spin btdt and again see minimal fraternizing and certainly no women throwing themselves at males......

 

Divorce because it is the right thing to do and you've tried everything to make the marriage work, not because you think you're some hot commodity.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Toodamnpragmatic

[rester]

i think the above quote sums up your relationship: its all on her and ALWAYS her fault.

 

-I have made a host of efforts over the years. She has not (other than words). Sorry if that makes it sound like I am blaming her, but I guess I am.

 

you don't like IC/MC because --- well its evident any poster you disagree with you 'bash'.

 

-I don't like it because I do not believe it works and have never seen evidence that it does.

 

you ASSUME she knows what is in your head (not really your fault, most do).

 

-Many times I have told her what is in my head.

 

i believe your recent weight loss has changed your outlook/expectations (BTW what have you done in those prior years), after 17+ years i think W deserves a 'last chance'

 

-Another last chance? How many of those should I give? Do I wait until I a 50? 60?

 

i find it curious as well the area you posted

 

-This is the area of the forum I am familiar with. Don't read too much into it.

 

It sounds like you have your views set and you are only looking for validation here, but one thing that you may consider is that counseling helps partners work through each of their needs so that they can attempt to come up with a mutually agreeable solution. It may be a safer place to discuss this issue because, from your posts, I get the impression that you blame everything on your wife. I don't mean offense, it's just the sense/vibe that I get.

 

Does she tell you why she is not interested in sex? Do you listen to her? I could be off, but just from reading your posts her I get the sense that you blame her for something you don't like, she says she will change, she doesn't, and you harbor resentment.

 

My point is that it's possible you could work through this with counseling if you are both willing to try. If not, enjoy your newly found freedom, but if you love your wife, I believe it's fair to her to give it one last shot.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

Being with someone who isn't normal usually means sacrificing something. Anyone who is mentally ill is not "normal".

 

If that sacrifice makes you miserable, and I believe it does, then weigh the options, make a choice and stick to it.

 

No counseling is going to solve this issue. You are two very different people who have never, and will never see eye to eye.

 

No amount of talking will change her attitude towards sex. Like you know, it can change for the short-term, but no one wants to work that ****ing hard to enjoy each other in that way, nor should they have to.

 

Trying to fix it, and failing repeatedly only builds upon the resentment you already feel for her. If that resentment should fade, it is only a matter of time before something brings it right back to the surface. Then you'll be 18 years worth of angry again.

 

You can be an honorable captain and go down with a sinking ship. You will die a slow, painful death.

[Sparty97]

Sure just like the old saying

 

Q: What kills a woman's sex drive?

 

A: Her Wedding Cake....

 

Sure give it a shot, but I think counseling (IC & MC) is needed.

 

As for Spin btdt and again see minimal fraternizing and certainly no women throwing themselves at males......

 

Divorce because it is the right thing to do and you've tried everything to make the marriage work, not because you think you're some hot commodity.

 

 

I think I said I felt hit on, not that women were throwing themselves at me. A bit of a difference.

 

I wouldn't say that it is making me feel I am a hot commodity as much as it is reminding me I don't have to settle for what I am getting.

[Sparty97]

It sounds like you have your views set and you are only looking for validation here, but one thing that you may consider is that counseling helps partners work through each of their needs so that they can attempt to come up with a mutually agreeable solution. It may be a safer place to discuss this issue because, from your posts, I get the impression that you blame everything on your wife. I don't mean offense, it's just the sense/vibe that I get.

 

Does she tell you why she is not interested in sex? Do you listen to her? I could be off, but just from reading your posts her I get the sense that you blame her for something you don't like, she says she will change, she doesn't, and you harbor resentment.

 

My point is that it's possible you could work through this with counseling if you are both willing to try. If not, enjoy your newly found freedom, but if you love your wife, I believe it's fair to her to give it one last shot.

 

 

I have given her numerous "shots" over the years. How many is enough?

 

You are right. I do blame her for the lack of sex in our marriage. Of course there are two sides to every story I suppose, but she is the one with the lack of interest so isn't the blame for that hers? If I leave my dirty clothes around isn't that my fault? If I have an affair is any of the blame hers? People are responsible for their actions. Yes, I do harbor resentment towards her. I feel her lack of effort is worthy of that. Getting a divorce would end that.

[oldshirt]

I think I said I felt hit on, not that women were throwing themselves at me. A bit of a difference.

 

I wouldn't say that it is making me feel I am a hot commodity as much as it is reminding me I don't have to settle for what I am getting.

 

You are noticing women noticing you. That's normal and it happens when people start looking better and feeling better and feeling more confident in themselves.

 

It can also be a symptom of you disengaging from your wife and noticing that there are other women and other options out there.

 

Don't feel like you need to defend yourself or clarify yourself to all the naysayers out there who don't want to believe that a guy can appreciate getting some attention from women while out doing something that he enjoys.

[Sparty97]

You are noticing women noticing you. That's normal and it happens when people start looking better and feeling better and feeling more confident in themselves.

 

It can also be a symptom of you disengaging from your wife and noticing that there are other women and other options out there.

 

Don't feel like you need to defend yourself or clarify yourself to all the naysayers out there who don't want to believe that a guy can appreciate getting some attention from women while out doing something that he enjoys.

 

Thank you.

[oldshirt]

It sounds like you have your views set and you are only looking for validation here, but one thing that you may consider is that counseling helps partners work through each of their needs so that they can attempt to come up with a mutually agreeable solution. It may be a safer place to discuss this issue because, from your posts, I get the impression that you blame everything on your wife. I don't mean offense, it's just the sense/vibe that I get.

 

Does she tell you why she is not interested in sex? Do you listen to her? I could be off, but just from reading your posts her I get the sense that you blame her for something you don't like, she says she will change, she doesn't, and you harbor resentment.

 

My point is that it's possible you could work through this with counseling if you are both willing to try. If not, enjoy your newly found freedom, but if you love your wife, I believe it's fair to her to give it one last shot.

 

 

I would agree with this post if they had been married for half a dozen years and the first several years they were going at it like rabbits in heat and then things changed somewhat abruptly and he needed help figuring out what caused the change and they had small children that needed an intact home.

 

But this is a case of chronic unsatisfactory sexlife and intimacy for the duration of their 18 year marriage. If a couple had a good sex life in the beginning and something changed, they may be able to troubleshoot and correct the issue(s).

 

But when they have had a lacking and lackluster sex life from day one and it has been discussed time and again over the years and nothing changes, then what makes people think that more time and energy needs to be thrown at it.

 

They've had 18 years to work this out and its only gone downhill. He hasn't mention children's ages but I am assuming they are not little any more, she is educated and employed.

 

He is at a point where it becomes an issue of efficient use of time and energy.

What is more effective use of resources? Continuing to Put time and energy into this 18 year pursuit of this windmill? Or cut losses and put time and energy into something that may have potential to actual pay a return on the investment?

 

There is a risk he may not find a good sexlife and satisfying relationship after a divorce. But I'd say after 18 years of an unsatisfying marriage, it's a pretty good bet he's guaranteed of not ever getting a good one if he stays.