Finances Issues

[SleeplessIn]

My H and I have been married almost 20 years. For the last 6-7 years, we've been struggling financially and this is largely due to the fact that he can't seem to control his spending. Previously, there were some sporadic problems, but it's much more frequent now.

 

I believe that a large part of the problem has to do with the medications he is on. He had a major cancer operation in 2004 and was left with some nerve damage that gives him constant stabbing pain. We have explored all options, and the doctors have told us that only the meds will control it and he'll be on them the rest of his life. They are major narcotics (morphine for several months at first, then switched to methadone as it is safer ... and there are some other meds as well). He didn't want to be on the meds, as they are addictive and he doesn't want to be an addict, but the doctors have said there's no real choice -- of course he is going to be an addict, there is no way to keep him out of pain otherwise.

 

After a major cross-country move in 2007, in the last 6 years, we've had to live apart due to circumstances. I have been living with my very elderly mother as she can't be on her own, and H has been at the place we bought which is about 85 miles away. We see each other a couple or so times a month, talk on the phone at least twice a day, and so on. But since I am not there with him, I have no control whatever over what he is spending.

 

I handle the finances, pay the bills and whatnot -- he is not able to do that as he will not remember to enter expenditures in the checkbook register or what dates what bills must be paid by.

 

We are older and on fixed income. We both enjoy some spending as a recreational activity, and I have no problem if he wants to collect a new knife here or get a necessary tool there. But that's not what he does. He will, for example, go to the grocery store for 2 items and end up spending over $100 because he sees some things he's never tried before. And he'll do this even when I've told him we only have $200 in the bank right now.

 

The situation has reached critical mass. Last year we brought his daughter (from first marriage) and her young son to stay with us at our place while she got on her feet after being homeless for months. She was supposed to pay her fair share of food and utilities once she got a job, but she didn't do that and our costs went up over $400 a month with the 2 extra people. I ended up having to pay bills with credit cards every month and she was there for a year before she got her own place. Now our monthly bills are much higher because of the additional credit card payments, and he knows that but he is not changing his spending habits.

 

When I try to discuss this with him, he gets angry and throws it back on me as being my fault we have no money. Most recently, I sent him a copy of our bank statement that showed he had spend $400 in the course of 3 days ... grocery store, cigarettes, stuff from a dollar store, and plants he bought to put in the garden. Quite a bit were things he did not need or certainly didn't need "right now". For instance, we don't NEED 5 varieties of tomatoes to plant! He didn't NEED to buy shrimp and lobster.

 

I don't know what I can do, and the stress is really wearing on me to the point I'm starting to feel sick to my stomach at times when I'm trying to figure out how to pay the bills. We have in the past each had a "personal spending allowance" that was for us to use for things that were not food or budgeted otherwise, and it worked pretty well. For instance, he could have bought those tomatoes with his personal spending allowance if we still did that. But he won't stick to it, he refuses to keep a list of what he has spent personally and stop at the "limit".

 

I've thought about trying to have him declared financially incompetent so that I can control how much money he is allowed to have, but he would be so hurt and insulted that this would be the end of our marriage. I know that what he is doing is not intentional, and I think that fundamentally it is a psychological thing in that because even with the medications he is in a fair amount of pain and so he looks for things to BUY the way other people eat comfort food. Things he can take some interest in that will distract him from the tough stuff.

 

Maybe someone here will know of something I have not thought of or tried already ... figured it would be worth asking.

[TiredFamilyGuy]

Tough situation. You have my sympathy.

 

Sounds like, he is to a certain extent is in denial about what he is spending.

 

There are ways to control how much money he has. Debit card only on an account with no credit facility. Use cash in jars. Each of these might allow him to see, with his own eyes and no input from you, that he spends more than he thinks he does.

 

Otherwise, no suggestions but lots of good will and here's hoping you find a way to work it out.

[Tiger Lily]

Your situation sounds VERY stressful, OP. It seems common to me that financial struggles are probably a symptom of much deeper issues.

 

For example:

 

• Your H sounds depressed. I agree that this problem has psychological roots, and I think he might benefit from talking to a counselor.
  
• You and your H are on different pages, both financially and in your marriage. I would consider talking to a counselor together. 6 years of living apart for the reason of taking care of you mom hints that there may be other issues going on.
  
• I have heard of Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University, and you both might benefit (well, obviously he needs the help, but you could do it together. Dave Ramsey talks about how important it is that someone understands the WHY and the BENEFITS about saving...not just the restrictions being put in place. Also, he really touts the envelop system (which I personally don't see as a bad thing, as long as your H is on board).
  
• Your step-daughter probably has access to MANY resources to help her get on her feet. I would talk about making a time limit to her stay. She can apply for CashAID, pursue online studies, find low-income housing. She just needs to know that she can't have a free ride forever!
  

Best of luck OP. I'm sorry you're going through all this. Also remember that if you need prayer for your family, just ask, or go to a local church for support. You're not alone!

Edited June 2, 2014 by Tiger Lily

[SleeplessIn]

@TiredFamilyGuy

 

-- Yes, "in denial" is a good phrase to describe the state my H is probably in with regard to the spending. I feel sure this is not deliberate on his part, it's unconscious and when I raise the issue he throws it back on me that it must be *I* doing the spending or somehow otherwise mis-managing the finances so we are coming up short. I think he doesn't want to believe he is making these mistakes. It may be scary to him that he's overstepping and not aware of it.

 

@TigerLily

 

-- I agree he is somewhat depressed, but he's been on medication also for that for many years. He's a war veteran and had a very good psychologist through the VA before we made the move west; since we've been here he has not yet found one he feels confidence in, so he has not been in IC for some time. I'm in IC and have a very good counselor, but as she is a woman and has been mine, I think he might feel she is just taking my side over disagreements, plus he'd have to drive 85 miles one-way just to meet with her.

 

We have no marital issues that resulted in our lives being "separate" for the last few years. He is in agreement with me looking after my mother, he loves her to pieces also and well recognizes the healthful benefits to her of remaining in her own home with a caregiver she can trust. However, there is not much for him to do here at my mother's, and since we had to sell our previous home in the down market, it only made sense to buy another during the down market also. The place we bought has a number of fix-or-fix-up things needed or that we want to do, so he has projects he can involve in but can work on his own timeframe depending on how he is feeling from day to day.

 

His daughter moved out this past December. My only gripe is that it would be nice if she paid us back what she could since we went into so much debt for her, but I'm sure that won't happen. So my focus really has to be on not getting FURTHER into debt due to my H's extravagances.

[CC12]

Also, he really touts the envelop system

 

I was going to suggest this, basically. But since you're not physically there to fill the envelopes every month/week or whatever, give him a prepaid debit card for each category. One for groceries, one for personal spending. I can recommend the Walmart prepaid debit card. You can get two cards per person, so you can use one to take to your local Walmart to reload it and he can use the other to shop with. He can check the balance and purchase history online. He'll only be able to spend what's on it.

 

Unfortunately, it seems that any realistic, immediate solution involves cutting off his access to all bank accounts and credit cards so hopefully you can somehow get him on board with that. Maybe you can try catching him at a good time to have this conversation.

 

when I raise the issue he throws it back on me that it must be *I* doing the spending or somehow otherwise mis-managing the finances

 

I'm sure there are ways you can improve your spending as well, so don't let this turn into a fight. Accept some responsibility and tackle the problem in a "WE need to fix this" way. Let him give some input. Ask him how much he thinks he should spend on groceries for one week. If his answer seems unreasonable, show him this: http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/FoodPlans/2013/CostofFoodNov2013.pdf Even the "liberal" plan is well under $100 per week for a man of his age.

 

It seems that he could have pretty generous grocery and personal spending allowances, and you all would still be in much better shape than when he drops hundreds of dollars over a few days without even thinking about it.

 

Do you think he would agree to any of this?

[Lisey9]

Is there a reason you can't move your mother to where your husband lives, so you can live together again? Or could your husband move to your mother's with you?

 

 

The only thing I can recommend is some variation of the envelope/debit card idea that has already been mentioned. You would have a lot more oversight if you were in the same place as your spouse.

 

 

Good luck

[bwright42tx]

I'll jump on the envelope system bandwagon. Maybe start with an in-person conversation, and just let him know that with two people spending money it is more difficult for you to keep track of the spending and make sure there is enough money left over for bills. (i.e. Don't make this about his spending). Then come to an agreement about a monthly spending allowance for him for his needs (groceries, personal necessities, etc.) and agree to give him that much in cash each month in advance. Then he agrees to spend NOTHING else without talking to you first. When the cash is gone, it's gone.

 

Alternatively, you could just take the cash out each month for the bills before he starts spending and pay them from another account, or with money orders, etc. so he doesn't feel like you are cutting him off from the bank account.

[bwright42tx]

And to add, I'm probably more like your husband, I spend too much and don't track it too well and end up over spending. My wife manages the budget because she's better at that. I'm doing better after much encouragement from her about at least checking and seeing if I have the money available before I go spending, but she does all the tracking, even of my expenses. If I was having to track my own spending I'd probably fail, and I'd be on the cash/envelope system to control my spending.

[SleeplessIn]

It's fundamentally out of the question to move my mother to our place where my husband is. She's 94, she wants to be in her own house, have her own things around her, etc. Not only that, but also she is only 5 minutes from the hospital here and the hospital near our place is at least a 20-minute drive. She'd be 85 miles further away from her own doctors who take very good care of her.

 

As far as the envelope system, I've done that before and it was a good system, but as has been mentioned I doubt I can get my H to follow it, especially when I'm not there to remind him. He's resistant to my other organizational suggestions such as keeping a record of his spending as he goes, so he can see how much he spends ... making a list before going to the grocery store so that he remembers to get everything he needs and doesn't have to go back the next day (which only leads to more impulse, unplanned purchases).

 

I'd never say that I can't improve on my own spending. For example, I need to keep an eye on such things as buying a magazine when I'm at the grocery store, or picking up a plant, things like that. These can be expenditures that although inexpensive in general, can add up over the course of a month if one is not careful. But since I'm so aware of our precarious situation, I've been extra careful about that stuff for months and months now.

[Mr. Lucky]

I handle the finances, pay the bills and whatnot -- he is not able to do that as he will not remember to enter expenditures in the checkbook register or what dates what bills must be paid by.

Why not place his funds into a separate account that he alone draws against? This would effectively be an electronic envelope in that, when it's gone, it's gone. The store isn't going to sell him lobster or tomato plants if his purchase is denied for insufficient funds...

 

Mr. Lucky

[SleeplessIn]

Why not place his funds into a separate account that he alone draws against? This would effectively be an electronic envelope in that, when it's gone, it's gone. The store isn't going to sell him lobster or tomato plants if his purchase is denied for insufficient funds...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I really like this idea and will make this suggestion. However, I anticipate argument because he doesn't see he has a problem, so why should he be restricted.

 

I check our bank account balance daily to keep track of expenditures, and for quite some time I've been making a notation in the register as to who spent what. At the end of the month, I added up what he spent and what I spent, and his amount was quite a lot. I thought that showing this to him would have the desired effect, but nope! He has looked at these records, expressed surprise he spent so much and said he would work on it, and nothing has changed.

[pink_sugar]

Sorry to hear about your financial troubles. My H and I have experienced the same thing over the past several years. Do you both work? Is there steady income coming in? You really need to sit him down and develop some sort of plan. This cannot continue, if nothing is working, I would look into MC. If he does not work, I would suggest opening a personal account and putting funds there. This may sound drastic, but you may need to have all funds in your name and give him an allowance to budget his spending since this is getting out of control. If he really isn't capable of sticking to his budget and nothing works, it may come down to that. Your H may not like it, but either he makes a conscious effort to change his spending habits or agrees that you have full control of the money. My mom has to do this w/ my stepdad, because he spends money extremely frivolously....so much that he's bounced rent checks and overdrawn their account many times that very few banks will give him an account since he had even gotten a judgement against him for unpaid overdrafts at one point.

Edited June 4, 2014 by pink_sugar

[SleeplessIn]

My husband has not worked since 2000 when the VA made him "unemployable, permanent and total" due to his PTSD issues. Since then he has received the VA disability compensation and Social Security. I worked until the end of 2003 when I had to leave the job for the foreseeable future due to a medical issue. In 2004 my H's cancer was diagnosed and operation done, and I could not return to work after that due to his health issues. Now I too am on Social Security.

 

All our income is electronically deposited in our joint account. If I set up a separate account just in my name, would the bank permit me to transfer nearly all our funds to that separate account? I don't know about something like that. And unless my H agrees to it, if I did something like that he would feel so back-stabbed that I think our marriage could be over.

 

What I could do is ask him "do I need to go that far before you face the facts about your spending?" Might get his attention even if we have an argument.

[pink_sugar]

My husband has not worked since 2000 when the VA made him "unemployable, permanent and total" due to his PTSD issues. Since then he has received the VA disability compensation and Social Security. I worked until the end of 2003 when I had to leave the job for the foreseeable future due to a medical issue. In 2004 my H's cancer was diagnosed and operation done, and I could not return to work after that due to his health issues. Now I too am on Social Security.

 

All our income is electronically deposited in our joint account. If I set up a separate account just in my name, would the bank permit me to transfer nearly all our funds to that separate account? I don't know about something like that. And unless my H agrees to it, if I did something like that he would feel so back-stabbed that I think our marriage could be over.

 

What I could do is ask him "do I need to go that far before you face the facts about your spending?" Might get his attention even if we have an argument.

 

Yes, if both your names are on a joint account, you can transfer them to an individual account. In this situation, you must have your own account...each of you. You can be up front with your husband that if you don't resolve this issue, you will need to manage the finances for him.

[Mr. Lucky]

Yes, if both your names are on a joint account, you can transfer them to an individual account.

And so could he, just so you understand ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Tayla]

Yes, if both your names are on a joint account, you can transfer them to an individual account. In this situation, you must have your own account...each of you. You can be up front with your husband that if you don't resolve this issue, you will need to manage the finances for him.

 

I think its wise for the OP to contact Social Security on separate accounts. It can be done. I would not recommend though doing it without consulting the Social Security adminstration. Taking funds that are deposited and transferring them from Federal funds may send up a red flag. Even if they are married.

 

I use pre-pay cards as a way to tender small items. Would getting him prepay cards be an alternative?

Also My sincere sympathy on his diagnosis. When you are in that mind frame you truly do understand thatt money is no where near as important as it once was. You have a perspective of just how looney turning over paper is to acquire objects. I know because I went thru the medical trauma and at some point you simply do not care about the rest of the world or its silly economic ways. You just want to live.

*LIVE*

 

Material things are just that.

 

The problem is though, You are still living and having to manage a parent and spouse. That is allot to put on your shoulders. I pray you have a support system to aide. You seem like a strong person to offer your kindness and dedication to your parent. She is blessed to have you.

[Tiger Lily]

As far as the envelope system, I've done that before and it was a good system, but as has been mentioned I doubt I can get my H to follow it, especially when I'm not there to remind him. He's resistant to my other organizational suggestions such as keeping a record of his spending as he goes, so he can see how much he spends ... making a list before going to the grocery store so that he remembers to get everything he needs and doesn't have to go back the next day (which only leads to more impulse, unplanned purchases).

 

You won't know until you try. Keeping records of money spent is time-consuming and boring; most people don't keep up with it. We're not all that good! But that's the beauty of the envelopes...it's simple!

 

And you're really going to have to talk with him about his goals from here on out. If he's not motivated towards a goal and understanding what the savings will do for him down the line, he probably won't ever care.

 

Other than that, this is possibly more of a marriage counseling topic. I still think he could stay with you more often throughout the week, and do odd jobs at your family home once and awhile! Honestly, I think you guys like this set up (don't know...just an opinion).