Understanding American Dating Customs

[Marc923]

Hello.

 

I was born in Germany, moved to the US last year for my PhD. I'm now back in Germany for a couple of weeks to see my family. Anyway, I really, really love the States, but this thread isn't about all the tons of things I like, but about one thing I... I wouldn't say dislike, that's too strong a word. There's something that I cannot get accustomed to, and that's the peculiarities of American dating.

 

In the US, society expects the man to treat the lady to everything. Buy her dinner, movie tickets, food, etc and the guy is not allowed to expect anything in return. Basically, it's expected of a "gentleman" to put her lady on a pedestal. In Germany, the girls I have dated almost always insisted on either splitting the bill or taking turns paying right from the first date. Most found it highly sexist to expect the man to do something the girl isn't doing, just because he's got something dangling between his legs.

 

I'm not saying there aren't any gold diggers in Germany. But I'm used to treating each other. I buy her something, she buys me something. If one earns more than the other, it's perfectly OK for the one who earns more to buy more, regardless of their gender.

 

Before moving to the US, I've been in a 3-year relationship with a girl that already earned a ton of money, while I was still a student with only a small income. She would insist on paying for the entire dinner when we went out, would buy me expensive gifts, even offered to pay part of my tuition fee (which I flat out refused, because I felt it went too far and I didn't want to use her). It made me feel uncomfortable, but she didn't mind paying at all, she felt I was still the man in the relationship, because I was much stronger and taller than her. She always told me, "I earn a lot more than you do, and I love to help you out."

 

In the US, I know couples where the girl earns a lot more than the guy, but the girl still expects the guy to buy her EVERYTHING, because he's "being a gentleman." She's basically getting richer and richer, because she can save a ton of money, while he's getting poorer and poorer because he has to feed two persons on a lower income. It seems to be me like she's just calling him a gentleman to flatter the guy into being perfectly fine with being used.

 

It seems to be the case that you have a huge advantage if you're born a woman in the US, because the only money flow is from the guy to the girl. And it's not even about the money for me. It's about a sense of equality and reciprocity. A sense of having an equal partner, not a goddess you have to worship to get her attention.

 

OK, before I come off sounding like an ignorant foreigner that just loves to complain 24/7 about a culture he doesn't understand, please allow me extend an olive branch : I usually consider it impolite to talk negatively about another country's customs and I don't mind "blending in" to a new culture. And I don't mind paying for a girl. I think it's kind of fun to spoil your girl every now and then. But I think it should be reciprocal right from the start and I consider everything else highly sexist and unfair. I have a strong sense of justice and equality and I cannot wrap my head around a culture that seems to expect the guy to basically worship the girl from anywhere between a couple of months to like, ever, depending on how long the courtship phase lasts and what girl you're dating.

 

There are a lot of double standards involved, which I don't understand:

 

When a girl lets the guy pay the entire bill, she's not considered cheap or a free loader, quite the opposite. But when a guy lets the girl pay the entire bill, he's often considered cheap and a free loader.

 

When a guy lets the girl pay just her half, he's still considered cheap and a free loader. (I've even heard some people comment that a guy splitting the bill is 'using the girl', even though everyone is covering their own costs and no one is really using anybody. If anybody is using someone, it's the girl using the guy when she's making him constantly pay for the entire evening.)

 

When a guy asks a girl out, he should pay. When a girl asks a guy out, ... he should pay, too.

 

When people say that a guy pays for dinner, they mean he's paying for the girl, too. When people say that a girl pays for dinner, they usually just mean she's paying only her half.

 

A guy paying EVERYTHING for a girl is common and lots of guys enjoy it. A girl paying EVERYTHING for a guy is highly uncommon and most girls hate the idea.

 

I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

 

I've heard girls literally tell each other: "You're the woman in this relationship, he should be giving YOU HIS money.", "My boyfriend never lets me pay for anything. If a boyfriend makes you pay for your own stuff, drop his lame sorry ass.", "Guys, never make your girl pay for anything."

 

If I want to sound a bit cynical, I would say that some American women seem to have huge entitlement issues. Is this observation correct or am I way off in my remarks?

 

From a neutral perspective, I can understand that women use men this way to get a free ride. I'm not saying I think it's morally right, I'm just saying some people are selfish and that's just the way it is. But the part I really, really don't understand is that most American guys are even playing this game and letting girls use them this way. They are making it extremely hard for someone who sees through this game, to demand equality in dating or in a relationship without sounding like a complete jerk.

 

Where's their sense of self-worth? Where's their ego that demands that the girl returns the favor? How can some American guys be so submissive and be content with such a one-sided relationship? He has to basically do and buy everything for her, while her presence is just enough? Guys, why are so eager on selling yourself short?

 

It's perfectly OK to make your girl feel special, but what about the girl making the guy feel special? It's perfectly OK to spoil your girl, but what about the girl spoiling her man? It's perfectly OK to buy expensive gifts for your girl, but what about reciprocity? And no, having sex with the guy isn't reciprocity, because the girl should enjoy sex as much as the guy.

 

In a time, where women had no rights and no money, I completely understand the guy paying everything for the girl. But this custom should have died off the moment women got the same rights and could earn money just like men.

 

Girls say they like to be traditional. Well, then grab some gloves, clean my house, cook me dinner, and prove it. That's what being traditional means. The woman taking care of the household and the men being the sole bread winner. Saying that you like to be traditional when you benefit from it, then saying you like to be independent when you don't benefit from being traditional, that's not being traditional, that's just being dishonest and deceptive. You can't have the cake and eat it. Don't you think?

 

Anyway, re-reading my post I sound like a nagging, woman-hating jerk, but I assure you I'm not. I'm just begging for someone to explain this to me. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. I'm really open to changing my opinion and now I would love to hear yours.

 

Love,

Marc

[mrs rubble]

I'm really interested to hear from the American's too. I get a similar impression of their dating culture too, from what I've seen, heard and read about.

[nofeelings22]

Having spent months in Germany, as well as years in western Europe, I can shed some light...

 

YOU COME FROM A PLACE WITH SMARTER PEOPLE AND BETTER CULTURE.

 

The USA is a wasteland of idiots, over entitled women, a general lack of culture and no sense of equality in anything we do. There is no thought to the future, no sense of a stewardship of the planet and no sense of community or family. It is every idiot for themselves. A free for all.

 

PS: I'm an American.

Edited June 9, 2014 by nofeelings22

[TXGuy]

I think you summed up dating in America perfectly. I assumed all Western countries were like this. It is refreshing to hear that is not the case.

[Phoe]

There are many American women who happily split bills and treat their dates. MANY.

[Imported]

Having spent months in Germany, as well as years in western Europe, I can shed some light...

 

YOU COME FROM A PLACE WITH SMARTER PEOPLE AND BETTER CULTURE.

 

The USA is a wasteland of idiots, over entitled women, a general lack of culture and no sense of equality in anything we do. There is no thought to the future, no sense of a stewardship of the planet and no sense of community or family. It is every idiot for themselves. A free for all.

 

PS: I'm an American.

 

 

I'm gonna have to agree. Generally people are trying to get theirs while the getting is good for as much as they can and as long as they can.

 

Even women trying to get to know a guy. She is making sure to get what she can. Yeah, it's even expected and she feels entitled to it.

 

I was raised like this. It's pretty normal to me. But even I can see fairness between the sexes is a joke here.

 

Guys have to approach and ask out women or they are not man enough.

 

If you are not told that you should pay because you're the man, then you will be told the person that ask out should pay. Which is the man of course.

 

It's not always like this OP and I don't think it's an American thing. I have gone out with women in latin countries a lot and it is even more so there.

[umirano]

Hahaha nofeelings, aren't you being a bit harsh with your countrymen and -women? This is a great thread for me because I have German family and have been dating an american girl for quite some time and I know a little about the US, though constantly learning and still very interested.

 

Also lol at the OP I completely get where you're coming from, as I interact with many Germans all the time and I know exactly what kinds of arrangements would make you cringe.

 

I just adored my girl and I didn't mind paying huge sums of money to entertain her and show her how much I care for her respect. Is it sexist? I guess, yeah, even to my disadvantage!!

 

OTOH, I think if she earned much more she'd have happily helped me out if I needed money at some point. So from my limited personal experiences american girls are not closet gold diggers across the board. At all. That would be very unfair to say from my experience.

 

If I understand the american mentality correctly, it's about being your girls hero. That's very american. You can't just be her guy, where you split the bill and sit down at the end of the month to balance the accounts (which is the German extreme). You have to be her super hero, precision firing a yard long shotgun with one hand and steering a car at a 100 mph with the other sweeping lanes and smashing thrash cans, while being funny and good looking at the same time.

 

In the ideal case she rewards you with a crazy amount of displayed affection (in German terms where things are way more dry IMO).

 

In Germany you have to be politically correct, keeping a close eye on the subtleties of gender equality at all times lest you're up for being grilled, ground and treated with contempt. Don't be too loud, don't be too conservative, don't be too manly, don't be too much of a bad boy. German culture is big in rules and strict ideas of how things have to be done. Germans love rules and experts who tell people what the correct thing to do is. They're very peculiar about social fairness and equality. "Soziale Gerechtigkeit" easily is the most frequently used term in German politics.

 

All right, I've exaggerated on both sides a little, but just to paint a vivid picture. Take it with a grain of salt, it's just my experience

[Mrin]

So I was about to make a snarky comment that the gender wage disparity makes it even in the end but Germany's is actually larger than ours. 23% vs 19%.

 

It is just an American cultural thing. Probably not unique to us per se. That being said, I always offer to pay for the first 4 or 5 dates but I don't insist. Women who are cool with that usually don't make it very far. Women who say "ok I'll get the next one" or "let's go to a bar and I will pick up the tab" usually do. I certainly don't use it as a test of any sorts. But more attracted to women who are assertive and don't mind contributing to our mutual fun. So it is more just something that happens.

 

I offer to pay somewhat out if some sense of chivalry. I will admit. But also, it is just easier.

[Marc923]

YOU COME FROM A PLACE WITH SMARTER PEOPLE AND BETTER CULTURE.

 

The USA is a wasteland of idiots, over entitled women, a general lack of culture and no sense of equality in anything we do. There is no thought to the future, no sense of a stewardship of the planet and no sense of community or family. It is every idiot for themselves. A free for all.

Don't be so harsh on Americans. Every country has their fair share of idiots.

 

You can't just be her guy, where you split the bill and sit down at the end of the month to balance the accounts (which is the German extreme).

I'd never ever do that and I barely know any Germans who are like that. I was talking about reciprocity, girls insisting on splitting the bill on the first date, or taking turns paying, that's something entirely different in my opinion. Someone sitting down at the end of the month to balance the accounts is even extreme for German dating and I don't know any guy who does that.

 

Don't look at it as being so black-and-white. Demanding your girl to take turns paying doesn't equate to demanding back the 10 cents you spent more on your girl than she did on you.

 

In the ideal case she rewards you with a crazy amount of displayed affection (in German terms where things are way more dry IMO).

In my last relationship with a German girl, we both rewarded each other with a crazy amount of (not just displayed) affection. Doesn't that mean that I was getting something for free, that you had to pay for?

 

German culture is big in rules and strict ideas of how things have to be done.

I have to completely agree and that's one of the things I find annoying about Germany. There's basically a guideline and rulebook for EVERYTHING. Even how plants and trees are supposed to be planted in a city and what colors are acceptable for the roofs of new houses. I'm not kidding you. Everything has to be clean, tidy and ordered. It's really refreshing to see a more casual and lax attitude in the US.

 

But I have to disagree with you when you're suggesting that girls chipping in on dates is due to strict rules. I'd state the exact opposite. Requiring a guy to pay every single time is due to strict dating rules, and you need these rules to keep anyone from actually looking at this with a logical, objective mindset. Ask any German, or Belgian, Swiss, Danish, etc girl how they would feel about a guy paying everything for them. Most would say, they would feel bad about it, they would never accept that, they take pride in earning and spending their own money. This has nothing to do with strict rules IMHO, but a sense of not wanting to use the guy and standing on your own feet.

 

I had a discussion about this with a Danish pen pal of mine, and she felt that a guy paying everything for her girl would make her feel like he's got low self-esteem and tries to compensate for that. Like his presence isn't good enough and he has to buy her love. Like he's less attractive than her, and he needs to balance that with his money.

 

They're very peculiar about social fairness and equality.

I don't think there's anything wrong with standing up for social fairness and equality. Why should it be? I think a person should have the same chances and opportunities regardless of their gender, race, skin, ethnicity, or religion. That applies to laws, but also to social norms. I don't think it's fair to expect women to carry the entire burden of raising children or having to do the entire household, either. I don't really think that that viewpoint is a peculiar German phenomenon, it comes from a basic moral understanding of equality.

 

So I was about to make a snarky comment that the gender wage disparity makes it even in the end but Germany's is actually larger than ours. 23% vs 19%.

I remember reading an official study about this. If you take into account the fact that women in Germany are more likely choosing less well-paid jobs (e.g. nursing vs a high-salary manager position), you get down to less than 8%. Basically, the gender wage disparity for the same job is assumed to be less than 8%.

[Mrin]

We make the same argument over here about the wage gap... Same methodology used in the OECD study. And we need to solve it when we are done watching Game of Thrones. ;-) But I digress...

Edited June 9, 2014 by Mrin

[normal person]

 

Where's their sense of self-worth? Where's their ego that demands that the girl returns the favor? How can some American guys be so submissive and be content with such a one-sided relationship? He has to basically do and buy everything for her, while her presence is just enough? Guys, why are so eager on selling yourself short?

 

There have been plenty of American men before you who have complained about how a terrible of a custom this is from their perspective. Chalk it up to our horrific culture of entitlement. If a girl wants to be a princess, the she expects to be treated like one -- it's that easy for her. The way I see it, no man is really happy about it but we continue to accept it begrudgingly because complaining about it leads to worse alternatives. Yes it's terrible, but we do it because we want the women. They know it's advantageous to them and they aren't going to drop it anytime soon.

 

How or why we have the custom is irrelevant, but I see it like this: American society reveres the driven and the successful. Plus our social mobility is a lot more fluid than in an other countries. It's social Darwinism. People rely on their resources: for simplicity's sake let's just dumb it down and say men have money and women have beauty. The more you have of one, the more you're likely to garner of the other. So you're going to expend what you have to get what you want. The richest guys will spend the money and set a standard. If the next guy doesn't meet the standard set, he's out of contention. Yes, it's incredibly materialistic on the surface. On a cro magnon level it's the most avid providers getting the most desirable females.

 

It's so engrained into our culture that mere complaints aren't going to change a decades-old custom. Girls got the long end of the stick on this one and I don't see them wanting to give it up anytime soon.

 

Here's how you play "America" the game in its most basic form:

 

Guys: You want the most desirable woman.

Girls: You want to attract the best provider (the one with the most success and money).

 

Losing move for guys: insist that the game is unfair and refuse to play by the rules

Winning move for guys: Accept the rules and work to get money or whatever resource she desires and then expend it on her.

 

I know it's not that simple but that's the elementary principle of the thing in my eyes. Yeah, it's a horrible aspect of American culture. It's not a secret.

 

Whenever this topic pops up I'm always curious to hear from the girls. Usually you'll get:

1). A few outliers who are quick to say that they always pay their way

2). Some girls who will insist that they enjoy the "chivalrous" aspects of it

3). A ton of girls who read the thread and willfully don't respond because they know there's no real reasonable defense of it. I can't blame 'em, really.

[umirano]

I don't think there's anything wrong with standing up for social fairness and equality. Why should it be? I think a person should have the same chances and opportunities regardless of their gender, race, skin, ethnicity, or religion. That applies to laws, but also to social norms. I don't think it's fair to expect women to carry the entire burden of raising children or having to do the entire household, either. I don't really think that that viewpoint is a peculiar German phenomenon, it comes from a basic moral understanding of equality.

Not trying to derail the thread, but for my personal taste German politics are too much about equality and too little about freedom for citizens and (small) businesses and individuality. Not everyone wants to pay roughly 50% of their income to a government and have no say about where the money goes at the same time. I do not find that particularly moral. Some US states at least have a financial referendum. Laws have to be equally applied to everyone, that's basic enlightenment state policy and it should stay that way, but financially and otherwise leveling out the whole society at the cost of basically robbing ppl of their money and personal freedom (i.e. the nanny state making sure you do what "society" expects of you) is not my cup of tea.

 

Also, esp. with regards to religion, the US approach seems much more fair and moral than the German approach. In Germany the church forms a creepy para-state, having seats in ethical committees and drawing millions of euros of tax money.

 

Back OT: I'd say that the actual differences between the two dating cultures are smaller than between different dates and that it's more subtle than the man always having to pay for everything (in the US) vs always splitting everything (in Germany).

[nofeelings22]

Normal person nailed it.

 

My post was tongue in cheek and also a bit jealous of what I see as a better society in many ways on the other side of the Atlantic. Sure, they aren't perfect, but there are a lot of great aspects to the culture there.

 

FWIW, I play the American game. I get the top girls. A mixture of keeping in shape, boldness and spending money lands you the best ones there are. That's all you really need.

[Marc923]

There have been plenty of American men before you who have complained about how a terrible of a custom this is from their perspective. Chalk it up to our horrific culture of entitlement. If a girl wants to be a princess, the she expects to be treated like one -- it's that easy for her. The way I see it, no man is really happy about it but we continue to accept it begrudgingly because complaining about it leads to worse alternatives. Yes it's terrible, but we do it because we want the women. They know it's advantageous to them and they aren't going to drop it anytime soon.

 

I think that's because most men look at this from an entirely wrong perspective.

 

It's like trying to prevent people from abusing loopholes in the welfare system for personal gain by begging abusers to please, please stop. It's never going to work. Selfish people are going to abuse the system as long as they can. Instead, you need to close the loopholes.

 

In other words, men need to just stop playing this game. Period. Instead of fulfilling the girl's expectations, have you're own expectations and act on them. I hear plenty of girls saying "if a guy doesn't pay on the first date, he doesn't get a second." but rarely any guys saying "If a girl doesn't offer to pay on the second date, she doesn't get a third." Instead, they are letting the girl wrap them around their little finger.

 

In other words. Don't be spineless weasel that puts up with everything a woman demands from you. State your own demands and expect no less. If there are not enough spineless weasels left for every entitled girl, these issues will be gone within one generation.

 

A woman once told me, a man that just offers and offers and doesn't demand anything in return from a girl, is not a real man and she will be using him for as long as she can, because she has no respect for him.

 

This is what makes a man a real man. Standing up, demanding your own fair share and saying what you believe. Not catering to every wish a girl has.

[nofeelings22]

Not trying to derail the thread, but for my personal taste German politics are too much about equality and too little about freedom for citizens and (small) businesses and individuality. Not everyone wants to pay roughly 50% of their income to a government and have no say about where the money goes at the same time. I do not find that particularly moral. Some US states at least have a financial referendum. Laws have to be equally applied to everyone, that's basic enlightenment state policy and it should stay that way, but financially and otherwise leveling out the whole society at the cost of basically robbing ppl of their money and personal freedom (i.e. the nanny state making sure you do what "society" expects of you) is not my cup of tea.

 

Also, esp. with regards to religion, the US approach seems much more fair and moral than the German approach. In Germany the church forms a creepy para-state, having seats in ethical committees and drawing millions of euros of tax money.

 

Back OT: I'd say that the actual differences between the two dating cultures are smaller than between different dates and that it's more subtle than the man always having to pay for everything (in the US) vs always splitting everything (in Germany).

 

Ideally, a society somewhere in the middle, picking and choosing components would be best.

[Marc923]

Not trying to derail the thread, but for my personal taste German politics are too much about equality and too little about freedom for citizens and (small) businesses and individuality. Not everyone wants to pay roughly 50% of their income to a government and have no say about where the money goes at the same time. I do not find that particularly moral. Some US states at least have a financial referendum. Laws have to be equally applied to everyone, that's basic enlightenment state policy and it should stay that way, but financially and otherwise leveling out the whole society at the cost of basically robbing ppl of their money and personal freedom (i.e. the nanny state making sure you do what "society" expects of you) is not my cup of tea.

You're preaching to the choir, I completely agree. But it has nothing to do with this thread.

[Potz4prez]

Oh man... I may just have to do my post doc in Germany now.

[umirano]

If a girl wants to be a princess, the she expects to be treated like one -- it's that easy for her.

Then maybe dads should stop to raise entitled little princesses. Normal kingdoms have a handful of princesses tops The US are a fine republic, no need for herds of princesses.

Au contraire, some aspects of the republican state/social philosophy should be deepened, more thoroughly applied IMO.

 

How or why we have the custom is irrelevant, but I see it like this: American society reveres the driven and the successful. Plus our social mobility is a lot more fluid than in an other countries. It's social Darwinism. People rely on their resources: for simplicity's sake let's just dumb it down and say men have money and women have beauty. The more you have of one, the more you're likely to garner of the other. So you're going to expend what you have to get what you want. The richest guys will spend the money and set a standard. If the next guy doesn't meet the standard set, he's out of contention. Yes, it's incredibly materialistic on the surface. On a cro magnon level it's the most avid providers getting the most desirable females.

That's how I see the US too. It contrasts strongly with the (modern) European social model. A lot of people here, and probably in other parts of the world get into a love-hate RS with the US (culture) over this. They're amazed at the material wealth, the brutal, almost painful display of wealth of some individuals, corporations or govt agencies (think of that enterprise-like command deck of NSA). They secretly dream of participating in that wealth somehow (shiny hummers, long legged girls, jetting down to Vegas to party over the weekend, etc.). And on a more public note they look down at the US for being arrogant, power hungry, respecting international law (trade and war) only when it suits them, trailer parks next to 8 lane highways, political and environmental cover-ups of the worst kind, crazy religions, violence and last but not least bad cuisine (just stating what I hear from sometimes pretty arrogant Europeans). It's a weird fascination with the arrogance of power and the other points and the simultaneous equally strong fascination with the US cultural output that makes people pretty conflicted.

Now, what a lot of the "good people" are missing, is the fact that obviously behind curtains every society works like the US society does. The US is just more up front about it.

I know a lot of people here that would fiercely differ, but it just isn't true. Of course you have more options dating when you have more money or power. Any given country of the world. It may not be fair, but it's what it is.

 

It's so engrained into our culture that mere complaints aren't going to change a decades-old custom. Girls got the long end of the stick on this one and I don't see them wanting to give it up anytime soon.

 

Here's how you play "America" the game in its most basic form:

 

Guys: You want the most desirable woman.

Girls: You want to attract the best provider (the one with the most success and money).

 

Losing move for guys: insist that the game is unfair and refuse to play by the rules

Winning move for guys: Accept the rules and work to get money or whatever resource she desires and then expend it on her.

 

I agree, but

 

I know it's not that simple but that's the elementary principle of the thing in my eyes. Yeah, it's a horrible aspect of American culture. It's not a secret.

Is it really horrible? And it most certainly isn't exclusive to the US. It's how mating worked over the past 200k years of human existence. There's nothing wrong with wanting the woman that looks like she's bringing the best genes to the table, and in turn there's nothing wrong with the woman looking for the best provider (and finances and influence are gigantic in determining who can or cannot provide).

 

Whenever this topic pops up I'm always curious to hear from the girls. Usually you'll get:

1). A few outliers who are quick to say that they always pay their way

2). Some girls who will insist that they enjoy the "chivalrous" aspects of it

3). A ton of girls who read the thread and willfully don't respond because they know there's no real reasonable defense of it. I can't blame 'em, really.

That's probably true also. The question is, is it really worth arguing about certain principles of our society? I think so because I find it interesting but the smart girls are probably out meeting their next best mate (group 3)

[umirano]

You're preaching to the choir, I completely agree. But it has nothing to do with this thread.

 

Well, maybe it does. The level of competitiveness and the importance of self provided economic independence for sure do play a role in the selection process that dating is. I would say that there are systematic differences in the willingness to take risks among random samples of american daters and a random sample of German daters (male). I would also say that the self confidence and the aggression turn out to be different in the two groups and I would say that those differences are (at least partly) rooted in societal differences (which can be observed in political differences).

[Marc923]

Of course you have more options dating when you have more money or power. Any given country of the world. It may not be fair, but it's what it is.

 

I completely understand what you're saying from top to bottom. But I still think you're entirely missing the point.

 

I think it's one of the biggest lies told to American men: that only women have to offer beauty. I'm not saying I'm a prize, I'm saying that women fall in love with men for their looks, too. Men can be handsome and athletic, just as women can be beautiful and curvateous. You make it sound like men are these ugly creatures that a woman couldn't possibly fall in love with, would it not be for their wealth.

 

It's not about having more options dating when you have more money or power. It's about American men grossly underestimating their intrinsic value and thinking the only thing they have to offer is their money. Of course, you're going to have more potential mates when you're rich. But that applies to males as well as females. Of course, you're going to have more potential mates when you are good looking, but that too applies to males as well as females.

 

This isn't the issue. The issue is the average men thinking they cannot compete with the average women in terms of looks and hence having to compensate by spending tons of money on the girl. And all that without realizing they would probably get the same amount of women if they collectively decided to stop pampering women. Why? Because women would still want men for their strength, looks, boldness, bodies, etc.

 

How do I know? I'm an average guy with an average face and little to no money. I'm not special in any way. And I still got women to fall in love with me, just as they got me to fall in love with them.

 

But in the US, you have created this artificial rule that the guy has to treat his lady to everything and expect nothing in return. And that rule keeps itself alive and feeds from the selfishness of some women and the ignorance of most men, because women benefit from it and men feel like they have to put up with it, when they really, really don't.

 

That's what I'm saying. This isn't at all about having more options when you have more cash or better looks. This isn't a debate about evolutionary biology and Darwinism. It's about this artificial belief that you have to do a lot more than the other gender just because you've got a penis.

 

It's basically the male version of the archaic female belief that they have to put up with having no rights and no money. You could come up with all kinds of evolutionary justifications for that kind of treatment (and scientists of past centuries have come up with all kinds of these, like men are superior to and stronger than women and hence are made to control women as they wish, women are incapable of logical thought and should have no say in politics, etc). You will even find old texts written by women justifying their treatment and them having less rights than men (the equivalent of modern men trying to justify today's dating culture even though it's disadvantageous to them.). It lasted for a long time until women understood that all they have to do is to collectively stop putting up with it. And see where it got them. That's my point. Just stop doing something that isn't beneficial for you. That should be one of the most basic principals of Darwinism.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Marc923

[M30USA]

Having spent months in Germany, as well as years in western Europe, I can shed some light...

 

YOU COME FROM A PLACE WITH SMARTER PEOPLE AND BETTER CULTURE.

 

The USA is a wasteland of idiots, over entitled women, a general lack of culture and no sense of equality in anything we do. There is no thought to the future, no sense of a stewardship of the planet and no sense of community or family. It is every idiot for themselves. A free for all.

 

PS: I'm an American.

 

I agree with your viewpoint. Unfortunately most people will only see your "anger" and not examine your statements. Add that to yet another fault of Anericans: we only hear the tone of how a person speaks and how they look while speaking, yet we ignore the message.

[normal person]

In other words. Don't be spineless weasel that puts up with everything a woman demands from you. State your own demands and expect no less. If there are not enough spineless weasels left for every entitled girl, these issues will be gone within one generation.

 

A woman once told me, a man that just offers and offers and doesn't demand anything in return from a girl, is not a real man and she will be using him for as long as she can, because she has no respect for him.

 

This is what makes a man a real man. Standing up, demanding your own fair share and saying what you believe. Not catering to every wish a girl has.

 

I agree with you. But what you're describing is easier said than done. Personally I'm not one to complain the custom only because I've accepted and prepared for it financially. I don't think most guys will tolerate a girl who "demands" anything from them. But I also don't think an American girl expecting a guy to pay for dinner is a character flaw. It's just something that's been engrained in our society for so long, it's not something I'd judge a girl on. About a year ago I was having a conversation with a girl who I thought was amazing -- smart, beautiful, funny, accomplished, etc. She said this:

"Being a guy must be so hard! You can't cry, you have to pay for everything..."

 

It wasn't that she was demanding or that I was spineless (I'm assuming), it was just the default responsibility of the gender roles: Men buy dinner. It was just understood and accepted in my mind. I had never even thought about questioning it, not because of the money, but because of the cultural prevalence of the idea. If you're a guy, you should go into a dinner expecting to pay.

 

There is a line that can be crossed. If the girl starts demanding things or expecting things that are unreasonable, then it's perfectly acceptable to cut her loose. Women can expect some free dinners without question, but if she's upset that she doesn't get more than that then no one will fault a guy for not tolerating it.

 

Is it really horrible? And it most certainly isn't exclusive to the US. It's how mating worked over the past 200k years of human existence. There's nothing wrong with wanting the woman that looks like she's bringing the best genes to the table, and in turn there's nothing wrong with the woman looking for the best provider (and finances and influence are gigantic in determining who can or cannot provide).

 

Well it makes perfect sense to me, to be honest. The thing is, 200k years ago people didn't have society and cultural nuances forcing them to second guess their actions and motives. I'm very much of the opinion that humans are just animals with self awareness living in the context of a refined society. If you strip away all the cultural subtleties and just look at things on a primal level, attraction really makes a lot of sense to me.

Edited June 10, 2014 by normal person

[Marc923]

Not trying to derail the thread, but for my personal taste German politics are too much about equality and too little about freedom for citizens and (small) businesses and individuality. Not everyone wants to pay roughly 50% of their income to a government and have no say about where the money goes at the same time.

I must have glanced over this the first time I read your post, but "roughly 50%" taxes are only for people with an income of more than 250,000 Euro. In fact, you will find the state of New York to be roughly the same taxation-wise as Germany, when it comes to the marginal tax rate (14% in Germany vs 16% in NY) and the top income tax rate (45% in Germany at 250,000 Euro vs 43.2% in NY at ~264.000 Euro).

 

But I also don't think an American girl expecting a guy to pay for dinner is a character flaw.

I think you are way too nice and forgiving towards women, when at the same time, they are not extending the same courtesy towards you. Let me turn this around and ask you this: Do you think it's perfectly OK for a man to be expecting a woman to do his household just because it fits in with traditional gender roles? Would you think it'd be OK for men to collectively build up societal pressure on women to be their housewife?

 

"A woman is supposed to do his man's household."

 

"A girl not doing housework is not a real girl."

 

"A woman not doing dishes and cleaning my pants won't get a second chance."

 

"If you won't do it, I'll find someone who will."

 

Do you think women would then be nice enough to tell you "It's just something that's been engrained in our society for so long, it's not something I'd judge a man on".

 

Hell no, women would be kicking and screaming, calling you sexist for even suggesting such a thing. And they would be right. But men, on the other hand, put up with this sexist crap. They don't even mind, they play along. Most men are trained to be these domesticated cats that look dangerous and strong from a mouse's point of view, but they really are just pets for your mistress to play with. I'm sorry if that sounds offending, but it's the truth.

 

She said this:

"Being a guy must be so hard! You can't cry, you have to pay for everything..."

That's the thing. You don't have to do anything just because you're a guy, the same way you don't have to do anything just because you're the girl. Not even to get a partner. Women were smart enough to understand this for decades now. They just state what they want, and they get it.

 

After blending in to American dating customs for a while last year, I decided to do something else and break free of these expectations. I'm now in a relationship with a wonderful black girl in the States. When I invited her to our first date, I paid everything. Not because I'm the guy, but because I invited her. She thanked me, and I replied smiling "My pleasure, if you want a second date, you'll return the favor." And she did, no questions asked. We are seeing each other for a couple of months now, and I can't wait to see her again when I return to the States. And we are still taking turns. That's because I didn't mind telling her what I expected, making it clear that I would not accept anything less, without sounding impolite or demanding. Basically, exactly the same thing girls do all the time.

 

Meanwhile, three of my American friends let themselves wrap around their girlfriend's little finger. "A guy must pay, he's such a gentleman, blah blah." The guys are a lot stronger than their girl, physically at least, yet you can clearly see who's got their pants on in the relationship. Little princess does.

 

 

Whenever this topic pops up I'm always curious to hear from the girls. Usually you'll get:

1). A few outliers who are quick to say that they always pay their way

2). Some girls who will insist that they enjoy the "chivalrous" aspects of it

3). A ton of girls who read the thread and willfully don't respond because they know there's no real reasonable defense of it. I can't blame 'em, really.

So true. Have you noticed that not a single American woman has actually admitted to this in this thread, although there are plenty of women in other threads? Speaks volumes.

 

I agree with your viewpoint. Unfortunately most people will only see your "anger" and not examine your statements. Add that to yet another fault of Anericans: we only hear the tone of how a person speaks and how they look while speaking, yet we ignore the message.

Haha, I must seem like an angry smartass in my posts. I'm really not at all. I'm just truly amazed at the level of sexism American men are willing to tolerate in their lives. I'm actually trying to be helpful by giving you an outsider's view (coupled with a bit of cynicism here and there) .

 

EDIT: Just found this: Study: ‘Entitled’ Men and Women Are More Sexist. Fits perfectly with the topic .

Edited June 10, 2014 by Marc923

[clia]

The position you describe sounds so extreme that I can't imagine what kind of women you are dating. I honestly can't think of a single relationship I know of where the man pays for everything and the woman is just sitting back banking her money. In most of the relationships I've had and that I've been privy to (friends, siblings), the guy paid for the first few dates, and then things evened out and both the man and the woman paid at times. If you are against doing that, then I understand a lot of the younger women these days have no problem going dutch from the getgo.

[hasaquestion]

How do I know? I'm an average guy with an average face and little to no money. I'm not special in any way. And I still got women to fall in love with me, just as they got me to fall in love with them.

 

I was in Germany recently. If you are an "average" man there, you're definitely above-average in the states.