Understanding American Dating Customs

[Potz4prez]

Dem sexy Germans wit der giant pretzels -.-

 

 

Honestly, a guy doesn't have to live up to archaic standards anymore. It's the guys that ARE that make the rest of us look cheap.

 

It also depends on what kind of company you find yourself in. Chances are a smart, educated women will be less likely to expect a man to pay for every date, etc.

[normal person]

 

I think you are way too nice and forgiving towards women, when at the same time, they are not extending the same courtesy towards you.

 

Let me turn this around and ask you this: Do you think it's perfectly OK for a man to be expecting a woman to do his household just because it fits in with traditional gender roles? Would you think it'd be OK for men to collectively build up societal pressure on women to be their housewife?

 

"A woman is supposed to do his man's household."

 

"A girl not doing housework is not a real girl."

 

"A woman not doing dishes and cleaning my pants won't get a second chance."

 

"If you won't do it, I'll find someone who will."

 

 

I think you're maybe right to suggest that it's not "ok," but that's not going to stop it. As Americans, we're aware of the flawed nature of it. But it's culturally engrained. Here's something I don't know if you've considered yet: when women accept dinners and things like that from a guy, more often than not they know that something is expected of them in return. The problem is that we let our culture predetermine the currency of exchange between the genders. Men buy dinner, and after a dinner or two the girl will probably think she probably has to give the guy something sexual in return. It's like a contract.

 

Instead of a guy saying to a girl "I'll buy this dinner and you'll buy the next one" like you have with your girlfriend, we just sort of enter into an agreement that roughly translates to "I'll buy you dinner and you're going to pay me back in some other way, most likely sexually." And you know what binds her to that? The same principle that affords her the free dinner, "if you don't do it, I'll find someone who will." So if she doesn't want to fulfill her obligation, the guy can move on. The women have the power upfront, but if she wants the guy to stick around and keep the gravy train flowing, she needs to do what she can to make sure the guy feels it's worth it to keep doing so. Each person has a bargaining chip, they're just different kinds. Yes, it's very odd to have the terms like that ahead of time. I'm sure it's ludicrous from a foreign perspective. I wish I knew why it was but I'm not a sociologist.

 

There's a relevant bit from a stand up comedian Iliza Shlesinger, who's sort of a very self-aware grown up sorority girl who talks a lot about the absurdity/intricacies of the American female/dating culture. She advises girls that if they order lobster (which is expensive) when they're on a date with a guy then they'll have to touch his dick afterwards:

 

"It's like a sexual contract from the sea. It's binding. Keep in mind he wants you to get the lobster."

 

 

After blending in to American dating customs for a while last year, I decided to do something else and break free of these expectations. I'm now in a relationship with a wonderful black girl in the States. When I invited her to our first date, I paid everything. Not because I'm the guy, but because I invited her. She thanked me, and I replied smiling "My pleasure, if you want a second date, you'll return the favor." And she did, no questions asked. We are seeing each other for a couple of months now, and I can't wait to see her again when I return to the States. And we are still taking turns. That's because I didn't mind telling her what I expected, making it clear that I would not accept anything less, without sounding impolite or demanding. Basically, exactly the same thing girls do all the time.

 

You and your girlfriend seemed to have opted out of the whole thing, which is impressive. If it works for you, great. Maybe I'm not the best person to have responded to thread because I don't mind our model. I'll buy a women dinner upfront and if I don't feel I get the return on the investment, I cut my losses and move on. You go dinner for dinner, most Americans go dinner for something else. No, it's not the most practical way of doing things but it's just how our society's evolved.

[umirano]

I think it's one of the biggest lies told to American men: that only women have to offer beauty. I'm not saying I'm a prize, I'm saying that women fall in love with men for their looks, too. Men can be handsome and athletic, just as women can be beautiful and curvateous. You make it sound like men are these ugly creatures that a woman couldn't possibly fall in love with, would it not be for their wealth.

I don't see how I was saying that men are ugly and women can only fall in love with them because of their money and power. I have neither and I can't complain about a lack of dating options. I'm saying that, all things equal, more power and money make you more attractive.

 

I also cannot confirm that "american men are being fed a lie" (by who?) on what they can offer besides money. I think, like I tried to explain in the other post, that the competitiveness ingrained in american culture shows in dating this way. But I don't think it's a systematic scheme set up by someone to twist how people mate. It's just what this society deals with as one major factor in culture, politics and economics.

 

It's not about having more options dating when you have more money or power. It's about American men grossly underestimating their intrinsic value and thinking the only thing they have to offer is their money.

 

I don't agree with this premise either. I have yet to meet these (american) men that think money is the only thing they can offer.

 

And in turn, what you're saying comes down to claiming that most if not all women largely ignore their need to be entertained by, physically attracted to and feeling safe around their partner and just focus on signs for wealth. I don't see this happening. Do you really think for the most part partnerships in the US form when the girl picks the wealthiest of guys that asked her to become their GF?

[Haydn]

I had brief liason with a nice girl from Miami. I really didn't feel a difference. Unfortunately her name was Mindy.

[Ninjainpajamas]

Well many American women are raised to believe that they are "special" and some become self-proclaimed princesses, whether it's from the overpraising of their parents, or watching Disney movies, romantic comedies and other romanticized and fantasy filled imagery to fill their heads with...they can develop this expectation or ideal of how they hope every man they are with should treat them, and that they should be rolling out the red carpet for her...and what does he get in return? well simply her time and occasional vagina, the reciprocation of what she needs to give back is not a question in her mind, she likely already sees herself as amazing and one-of-a-kind just by default.

 

You see in American culture, the better looking the woman....the more wealthy, status, or handsome you have to be in order to be "worthy" of dating her (at least in major cities, doesn't apply to rural areas), you are not just valued by who you are as a person because that's not enough...unless they already know you or have affections for you, otherwise on paper, you need to this pinnacle of expectation...ideally.

 

But even for American men a lot these guys are suckers just submitting to that culture, so don't think it's something that American men don't realize and many don't participate in that and still date just fine. And honestly in reality a lot of relationships are more balanced than they may appear...it's just more appropriate for women to boast about how well she is treated by her man in order to make other women jealous...so don't believe everything coming out of their mouths, a lot of it can be just for show to display to other people.

 

Women who are actually attractive enough however to push their luck can practically have men trained like obedient dogs, buying them things, wining and dining them...well they can get away with it because of their looks...granted a lot of women who are not all that attractive, whether short, fat, ugly or whatever...can still hold these standards for themselves very high but for many it's more of a dream than a reality, and there is no mirror for them in what they have to give back...only the standard in what they expect from men...they are "special" to themselves for simply breathing air, and men feel confident and validated that pursue these types when they can live up to their expectations, because for those guys it's an accomplishment...they can tell themselves they are "good enough" to have a girl like THAT. But a lot of them are pussies of course with low self-confidence often times...I've seen MANY of these guys in action and within themselves, they are very insecure underneath it all...all the flash and substance they have is more like an offering; not to mention if they can actually afford it, they could be in debt or irresponsible with money and unfortunately a lot of men are raised to give into this ideal that a man should put it all on the line if he wants to have not just the "best" girl, but the best life.

 

So American culture is about striving and working for these GRAND ideas and expectations, outdoing the other guy, you are competing with your own sex as much as the woman, it's all about being accepted and validated through the culture..that's why in American if you hold a certain status, like rock-stars or movie stars, you can still get away with being a douchebag or person with poor morality and character, people only care about the facade...at least the public, and the public eye is important in American culture...that's why you see people with all these things they can't even realistically afford, and wouldn't have living in many other countries without financing and credit, a lot of these people are in way over their heads...and for American, that's "normal".

 

Furthermore there's actually an oppression of men in America with men being able to voice their opinions transparently....meaning any kind of critique or negative criticism about women and you're just a jerk, you should essentially accept her for however she looks and accept her demands as reasonable...too fat? that's ok, media is ruining the image of women, don't cook or clean? that's ok, the husband should help out and if there are children it's automatically assumed he is doing less work and she's doing all the work and she's overworked and stressed, which is why she also shouldn't have to have sex without a candle-lit dinner and a trip to the Bahamas to quell her anxiety and stress. You will hear nothing about what men or want, because they're not allowed to...the only thing you'll hear about is things about how to read our mind and manipulate us to doing what the woman wants.

 

This is a very grand generalization, not all women are this way of course...I've dated women from different cultures and background, several women from Europe, one being of my longest relationships and I do prefer the less entitled and expectation of being praised attitude and I notice the differences in expectations but there's always two sides to a coin. I have also never been treated as well as I have by American women, I've been treated like a king by some women and they were completely fair and giving.

 

What I'm getting at though with the general culture is, it's all apart of the same dynamic, and in a sense you can't hate the player you've got to hate the game. But it's always your choice as an individual whether to feed that monster or not.

 

As far as your relationship...well, you do fit into the dynamic a little more than you may realize. Sure, she might be putting out for all the bills and such, but you're not just some schmuck working at the local Walmart...you have what women call "potential" my friend...you are working on your PHD, you might not be doing well now but you will be in the future, and you'll provide security and that potential for a nest as she plans her future and life around you (or with you, however you want to look at it), and you're "exotic"...Americans like exotic things, that means you don't have to conform to the stereotype because you are "different", and that makes you an exception to some extent. I'm not saying your GF is dating you and doing what she is just because you are working on a PHD, but she's not stupid either and knows the potential...and I know you might think the best of her, but she might be working towards that payoff in the future...a lot of women will "sacrifice" to get what they want in the end, to get you to settle into that little "trap"...women have agenda's, I don't care what country they're from or how little expectations they may have...but you'd be a fool to believe you are any more an exception to THAT rule than anyone else, you DO have your American culture worth for certain, you're just not seeing it from a woman's eyes. And some things are more important than others to women.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Ninjainpajamas

[littleplanet]

I dunno.............

I never bought a woman.

 

I just bought stuff.

 

(And the women I've known, have always known the difference.)

 

I do believe this is a planetary issue, not just a (North) American one.

 

My starving artist youthful days always, of course - precluded any MR Moneybags affectations. I woulda had to have robbed a bank, or somethin'.

Romance just never was precluded by a dollar sign.

 

But then again.....now that I think of it.......I don't believe I ever really participated in a "dating" culture. So what do I know?

 

What did I do instead? Found other ways to lubricate romantic possibilities and opportunities into desired results.

How?

 

Ahhhhhh. I was born with romance in my soul.

I guess I could say.....I learned how to play a guitar, instead of learning how to play the "game."

 

and it all worked out just fine.

[Woggle]

I am an American but America is filled with morons. There are great things that come out of this country and there are great people but for the most part we are seriously jumping the shark and we don't even know it. I think many Americans don't even know how to interact in a manner that isn't us vs them anymore. Travel outside the US and the difference is like night and day.

[2.50 a gallon]

It is simple, I asked her out, it was my treat.

[hasaquestion]

I am an American but America is filled with morons. There are great things that come out of this country and there are great people but for the most part we are seriously jumping the shark and we don't even know it. I think many Americans don't even know how to interact in a manner that isn't us vs them anymore. Travel outside the US and the difference is like night and day.

 

So true. The night I was leaving Germany on my recent trip, I was hanging out overnight in the Frankfurt Hbf (huge train station), waiting to go to the airport. Wheelie briefcase, headphones, default grumpy American "don't F with me" face. Ended up getting approached by a group of people who were coming back from the bars and chatting for like 1/2 an hour over coffee at the stand.

 

Wish that kind of thing happened here too.

[compulsivedancer]

I think it's a product of inequality in the culture. In Germany, women are more equal than in the US, so they don't expect special treatment. In countries where women are less equal than in the US, men take care of them even more than here.

 

I think as you move into social circles where women provide more for themselves, you'll see more women paying for themselves.

 

I think you'll also see more of this dating structure in areas where men are expected to "take care of their women" in the US: the South, the Midwest, the Southwest (yes, I know that's half the country). It's part of the cowboy mentality (remember, we're only about 120 years from the Old West), where you often had 5 men competing for the attention of one woman.

 

And don't get me started on the South...the Southern gentleman is the nice face of a culture that uses civility to hide a lot of cultural evils.

[2.50 a gallon]

This thread got me to looking back at some of the relationships I have been in. In almost every case, although I might have started out footing the bill, in almost every case, it did not take long for her to begin throwing her money into the relationship, and I have found women to be most generous, as it did not take long before the amounts of money spent would even out and I think in many cases, I might have pulled ahead.

 

 

The relationship prior to my present lady, was an on again / off again relationship that lasted somewhere around 6 years. We met when she moved into my apartment complex. The first time we went out, I took her to the ribs house down the street followed up by a movie or two. After that it was equally paying, many a night the bill was just a few bucks, for renting a movie. About 3 months into dating she fell in love with me and invited me on a weekend trip to a B&B in a local pricey tourist town, about 60 miles away. While window shopping, she drug me into a custom, high priced jewelry store and told me to pick out anything I wanted and she would buy it. We are talking thousands, and that is how I found out that she was actually very wealthy. For the next 5 years, she invited me on several cruises. Bahamas, Mexico and day trip of two to see some ruins, Hawaii, and the last 2 weeks in Tahiti. After a couple of years, I learned to break up with her a couple of months prior to Christmas, as I could not get her to back off on spending hundreds and once a thousand dollars for toys for me. It just didn't feel right as there was no way I could compete.

 

 

First date with my present lady cost me $20 for a couple of drinks and an hour or two of shooting pool. Second date was another $20, the third date was a night of baking Halloween cookies. Fourth date, was maybe $40 when I took her to the local races. By that time we had become a couple, and I have long lost forgotten who paid for what. We bought a house about 8 years back, she pays half of the bills. Over the years she has spent thousands furnishing it. New couch, new table and chairs, patio tables and chairs. Three Christmases back she threw down $400 for a wide screen TV for us.

 

 

I am retired and on a fixed income. Today we went shopping for up scale camera for me. Found what I was looking for, and when I went to dig the large bills I had tucked away in my wallet to pay for it. I couldn't find them. So the sale was off. That is when she offered to pay for it with her debit card. I turned her down as it would take several months before I could pay her back. That is when she said I would not have to pay her back. Thankfully as we were leaving the store, I found the bills and we went back and bought the camera. Tonight she dropped $40 on us when she took us out for Mexican food. I paid the tip.

[Grumpybutfun]

You have an opinion and that opinion is yours to have. We don't need to change your mind. It is all about preference.

Southern gentility masked for evil chauvinistic purposes,

G

[regine_phalange]

Every country has its particularities, it's better not to judge the people for acting a certain way.

 

Here, in Greece, people grow up believing that a man should pay for everything. Some even act insulted when the woman wants to treat them. Even after some dates. I guess it's cultural, because this also extends between friends or family dinners, to "fight" because everyone wants to pay the check (it's a showoff thing I suppose).

 

At the same time, when someone never goes the extra mile to pay once in a while (eg paying sneakily while pretending to go to the toilet - or leaving half of the bill money in the boyfriend's car when he is not looking), they are considered stingy. Also men who like to pay always for dinners and the such, also secretly expect their girlfriends to spend money on them. Not on dinners but on gifts. Again, when a man pays in public for both it's a macho showoff thing.

 

If you ask me, as a woman, I prefer to split, or treat each other with turns. Simple and thoughtful.

[Frank2thepoint]

In the US, I know couples where the girl earns a lot more than the guy, but the girl still expects the guy to buy her EVERYTHING, because he's "being a gentleman." She's basically getting richer and richer, because she can save a ton of money, while he's getting poorer and poorer because he has to feed two persons on a lower income. It seems to be me like she's just calling him a gentleman to flatter the guy into being perfectly fine with being used.

 

Welcome to America.

 

 

The position you describe sounds so extreme that I can't imagine what kind of women you are dating. I honestly can't think of a single relationship I know of where the man pays for everything and the woman is just sitting back banking her money.

 

My first two exes had this expectation. With my first, I was young, dumb, and just got a credit card. So I racked up my debt. I didn't exercise much self control. With my second, she always made comments about how how I need to get rich. In fact, she made more money than me, and she still wanted me to pay for dinner. It's one of the reasons why I rarely took her to a nice restaurant. And when time came for her to spend money, she would whine and moan about how she wants to save and abhorred touching her funds.

 

The position that Marc923 describes, are not extremes, they are more prevalent than you think. Many such women never advertise such expectations. They subtly and manipulative (using words such as "chivalrous", "gentleman", or even "manly") to exploit a man. In fact, there are plenty of female members on this very message boards that have used such terms perpetuating the expectation that a man has to pay, not just for the first date, but nearly all dates, and even during the relationship. If a man does not pay, or accepts a woman's offer of her paying for the date, he's automatically relegated to "non-romantic" status.

 

Oh and to boot, being in NYC, this issue is worse, because there is an expectation of men to be successful. I've read many female posters that are in or near NYC, have this expectation of men having to pay. If you pay attention, you can spot them easily on LS.

[proactivedreamer]

When I was in Australia with my Swiss born ex bf, we decided to go out to dinner and then going dancing. He paid for dinner at a nice restaurant, and I paid for us to go dancing at a club. When I was paying to get into the club the attendant( who was Australian) made a big deal to my ex that I was paying. I told her he paid for dinner, and she said, "so what, a lady should never pay." so I wouldn't say this is strictly an American custom, and I think the dating customs might vary state to state. I personally don't mind paying, however I do feel the pain of having to pay almost all the time now with my current bf.

Edited June 13, 2014 by proactivedreamer

[Zapbasket]

I think it's easy to end up down some reality-clouding side roads when a person takes his scope of personal romantic experience and observation and globalizes it into a statement about an entire culture.

 

Not saying you're entirely wrong, but you're claiming to have a handle on the whole of "American Dating" while having observed and experienced only a very small part.

 

I know many women who, like your ex-girlfriend, have paid for everything from dinners out to vacations to school tuition to house down payments to monthly rent on behalf of their boyfriends, without asking for a thing in return. They do it out of love and for the good of the relationship, as well as for the pleasure of treating the man they love. This is not an "American" thing, but a thing women across many cultures do in the name of love. Often women's assets are not pecuniary, and so they generously give in other ways--their talent, contacts, cooking/cleaning.... It all balances out, for the most part.

 

Of course there are selfish people--men and women--who take more than they give. But "reciprocity" doesn't just have to mean monetary exchange, and to count it out that way bodes poorly for the healthy of ANY relationship or dating experience in ANY culture.

 

I will say that it is more a norm, in the US, for the man to pay on the first date, maybe even the first few dates. I personally would have an issue with a guy who didn't pay for the first date, though I'd never say anything. I just most likely wouldn't agree to a second date. I think the man paying at first is an archaic ceremonial norm, a kind of gallantry, that helps grease future interactions. It's more likely from such a beginning for a woman to feel very comfortable paying for future dates and being generous in manifold ways, as well.

[Allumere]

Very interesting.

 

My dating resume is not long considering my age (45) but so far my experience has been things have been reasonably back and forth. If a gent ask me on a first date then yes I have the expectation that he will pay, however I always offer to pay half or at least cover the tip and if he takes me up on it that's totally fine..it isn't a test. After the first date then I think folks should take turns. I am generous with my money although I don't have much. The men I have dated were certainly not wealthy and one was literally winging it. As an Insurance salesmen it was feast on famine. When he had it, he paid, when he didn't I gladly covered. Last gentlemen I dated just wasn't a gift giving sort but his actions like making me a meal or rubbing my back or leaving nice notes were gifts enough. I got him things all the time but again they were't fancy things...sometimes just practical (i.e., a $5 yard sale mailbox I purchased and painted for him). Don't get me wrong, if some guy wants to shower me with gifts and fly me places I'm cool with that but again it has never been expected. I figure if you can't work together financially when dating it isn't gonna get better when married.