7 year itch? Midlife crisis? How will it end?

[Ultramarine]

Current situation: we are both unhappy with our relationship and narrowed down our issues with each other to:

 

 

• His with me - he needs a lot of affection, appreciation, and sex. I don't give much.
  

 

 

• Mine with him - I need to feel that I'm the only one and nobody else matters to him. He likes women and had several emotional affairs. Plus at least one that included exchange of semi-nude pictures. I don't trust him.
  

 

This is getting to the stage where we both are questioning the point of continuing the marriage.

 

Now, the background. We've been together for 8 years, married for 7. We have 3 kids... 4, 2 years and 7 months. I stay home, he works full time.

He says he's had the issue with me from the very beginning and asked me to change for all these years. I have recognized it on some occasions and got a little bit better at giving attention and affection. I think the real improvement has been in sex. I never turn it down and I think my libido is just fine. He just wanted me to initiate it more, which took a real paradigm shift (I grew up with the idea that a woman is the responder not initiator) but I'm glad now and find it empowering. It's still not frequent enough for him. Also, he was my first sexual partner, while I wasn't same for him.

 

I admit that I suck at affection and appreciation. I am a very private and reserved person and I don't pay a lot of attention to other people in general. Which is fine, until those people are my husband. Part of it is the nurture - I grew up in a family that I don't remember being very physical or talk about anything significant (like emotions or gratitude). Same goes for the culture (Ukraine /former USSR). What I learned is toughness, avoiding conflicts and covering up emotions. But also not relying on praise and affection.

 

I think I need to unlearn it all. I don't mind working towards being affectionate, thankful and sexually proactive, since I think those are qualities that would benefit not only this relationship but also any future ones if this doesn't work. I'm also finally accepting the fact that it's actually a big deal to my husband and is the source of his unhappiness with me. On the other hand, this situation makes me question whether I want to be with someone this needy at all.

 

 

Now, the other side. When I was pregnant with our first child, he reconnected with a girl he grew up with and always liked. She finally became interested in him, which he told me all about, including how he's always had a crush on her and was now struggling with the fact that he's married and can't drop everything and run into her arms. He did not run to her but it still made me feel very unhappy and unwanted.

 

That's that. Only a few months later, he met another girl and proceeded to have an affair with her. They only didn't get to the point of sleeping together because her boyfriend contacted me and I confronted my husband. Who then freaked out and tried to make me feel bad about not trusting him and trusting the girl's boyfriend. Sort of apologized and said it will stop. It didn't. While I was away for my baby shower 400 miles from home, he was kissing her in that same home.

 

I don't remember how it ended... We probably fought a lot. He stopped contact with her and seemed genuinely sorry. I probably refocused on having the baby and tried to forget.

 

There was a long distance emotional affair with a girl he met on WOW. And probably a few more I don't remember. He is more "social" than me and goes through periods of being bored and looking for new friends. He also prefers female friends and doesn’t get along well with men. This goes back to his childhood when he was left by his own dad and abused by mom’s boyfriends, so I get it, he doesn’t trust most men.

 

I was fine with his preference up until he started crossing boundaries with these friends. He believes that it’s completely possible and okay to love more than one woman and that in doing so, he does not take anything away from anybody. And that there is no harm in developing a relationship with a girl he’s attracted to or keeping in touch with exes and such. He thinks it’s fine to flirt with his female friends, exchange photos, text for hours, etc., as long as he’s paying the bills and comes home for supper.

 

When I was pregnant with the second child, he went on one of his online friend crusades (signing up for a bunch of websites, talking to people online). I remember clearly that his “looking for” in one of the profiles was “whatever I can get,” which I asked him about and he gave some seemingly logical answer (he’s good at talking). He found a married girl and their conversations culminated in exchanging topless/fig leaf pictures and planning to meet. Which I found out about, again, from the girl’s husband. I got my stuff and my son and left while he was at work. I wasn’t sure I’d be coming back and spent the night at a hotel wondering if I wanted a divorce right there and then.

He made it very clear that he wasn’t sorry and instead, kept talking about how sick he was of me trying to control him. And how I wasn’t satisfying his needs and how maybe marriage isn’t for him. This was pretty much the content of the marriage counseling sessions we started going to a couple of weeks after.

 

We both still wanted it to work I guess…And I was pregnant and I had no job. Doesn’t help with decision-making. Because in perspective, I feel that that was a major breaking point for me…I give you a second chance and you…what? How much respect do you have for me? None? Thought so.

 

Anyway, here we are, another kid later. His current best friend is a married woman who he likes a lot and talks to a lot, though she is apparently not the kind to send nude pictures. He is also at a waning stage of his online friend-finding period and he’s talking to a couple of girls. He says that everything is innocent and he has no intention of getting into anyone’s pants. He's also starting to see a counselor tomorrow to work through his own personal issues (including his overall dissatisfaction with life). I would like to do that too, to help with the affection/emotional stuff, and we are likely to continue into marriage counseling after that.

 

 

 

Thanks for reading all the way to the bottom. I'd love to get someone else's perspective. What should we do?

[Mr. Lucky]

C He's also starting to see a counselor tomorrow to work through his own personal issues (including his overall dissatisfaction with life).

I wouldn't do anything with MC unless you saw tangible change in his behaviors and improvement through his IC. You can't have a marriage without a partner that's physically, emotionally and exclusively committed to you and the relationship. Unfortunately, right now there's not much to be saved since he doesn't seem to feel what he's doing is wrong.

 

What's your Plan B? Might be time to at least talk to an attorney to understand your options. That might also be a wake up call for him. Keep posting...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Spectre]

He has cheated on you, so dump him. Two things though, first you say you suck at showing affection and appreciation. That is not good, not good at all. You should be able to show your husband how much you love and appreciate him. Of course that is no reason for him to actually cheat, but I can understand how it would make someone *want* to cheat. Thing is, guys like getting affection just as much as women do.

 

Second thing is this guy sends major red flags. Just like with the women who say silly things like "oh I need mostly male friends, I just don't get along well with females!" this "I'm a man and I don't get along with dudes, only females!" is JUST as insane and silly. When someone spins you an excuse about how they "don't get along" with members of their own gender..they are basically saying "don't be shocked if I cheat on you with some of these 'friends'".

 

So, my advice for you would be to leave him, he has emotional affairs and also says silly things like the "don't get along with guys" stuff. My other advice will be nip this "I'm crappy at showing affection" thing in the butt before your next relationship.

[Ultramarine]

Thanks for the feedback, Mr. Lucky. I think what I'm looking for here in these forums in the first place is validation...that I have the right to feel the way I feel. As to your question, my plan B is very fuzzy but it includes separating, which would likely lead to a divorce. I've been looking for jobs and trying to figure out how I can be on my own (with kids) in general. We just moved very close to my family, so I would have some support when I need it.

[beach]

I can see why you don't trust him. Without trust - there is no foundation for a healthy marriage.

 

You can only control yourself. He may still continue his bad behavior forever IF that's who he is.

 

I agree with unlearning what doesn't work for you. We don't HAVE TO hang to what we were "taught" in our childhood if it doesn't work.

 

A good counselor could help you to unlearn what doesn't work for you - and to establish a healthy boundary FOR YOURSELF.

[Spectre]

I'm also finally accepting the fact that it's actually a big deal to my husband and is the source of his unhappiness with me. On the other hand, this situation makes me question whether I want to be with someone this needy at all.

 

Okay so red flag on your part for you referring to him as being "needy" for wanting his wife to show him affection. I'd feel pretty pissed off if my gf called me "needy" for that.

 

Now, the other side. When I was pregnant with our first child, he reconnected with a girl he grew up with and always liked. She finally became interested in him, which he told me all about, including how he's always had a crush on her and was now struggling with the fact that he's married and can't drop everything and run into her arms. He did not run to her but it still made me feel very unhappy and unwanted.

 

Okay so what the hell? This guy tells you he has crushes on other women and laments about how he can't drop everything and go be with them. I can't even figure out why you didn't just dump him then and there. Happily married people don't get crushes on others.

 

I don't remember how it ended... We probably fought a lot. He stopped contact with her and seemed genuinely sorry. I probably refocused on having the baby and tried to forget.

 

I have to ask why you continued to allow this guy to impregnate you if the marriage was in such trouble?

 

There was a long distance emotional affair with a girl he met on WOW. And probably a few more I don't remember. He is more "social" than me and goes through periods of being bored and looking for new friends. He also prefers female friends and doesn’t get along well with men. This goes back to his childhood when he was left by his own dad and abused by mom’s boyfriends, so I get it, he doesn’t trust most men.

 

Okay that is honestly the lamest excuse ever for why this guy only wants female friends.

 

I was fine with his preference up until he started crossing boundaries with these friends. He believes that it’s completely possible and okay to love more than one woman and that in doing so, he does not take anything away from anybody.

 

This is just flat out stupid, your husband says a lot of stupid things to you.

 

And that there is no harm in developing a relationship with a girl he’s attracted to or keeping in touch with exes and such. He thinks it’s fine to flirt with his female friends, exchange photos, text for hours, etc., as long as he’s paying the bills and comes home for supper.

 

Okay so now I have to wonder why you even put up with this. I get you have kids, but your husband is being a terrible husband to you, if he can treat his wife with such utter disdain and disrespect I'd be wondering exactly how he treats the kids.

 

When I was pregnant with the second child, he went on one of his online friend crusades (signing up for a bunch of websites, talking to people online). I remember clearly that his “looking for” in one of the profiles was “whatever I can get,” which I asked him about and he gave some seemingly logical answer (he’s good at talking). He found a married girl and their conversations culminated in exchanging topless/fig leaf pictures and planning to meet. Which I found out about, again, from the girl’s husband. I got my stuff and my son and left while he was at work. I wasn’t sure I’d be coming back and spent the night at a hotel wondering if I wanted a divorce right there and then.

 

I just have to say your husband is really bad at affairs. How many times has he been busted by the other womans boyfriend? I mean, I'm not saying affairs are good, but you'd think with as much practice as he has had..he'd be a bit better at it.

 

Anyway, here we are, another kid later. His current best friend is a married woman who he likes a lot and talks to a lot, though she is apparently not the kind to send nude pictures.

 

She is not the kind to send nude pics, but she IS the kind who has a male best friend whilst married, which is just begging for disaster.

 

If for some reason you decide not to dump this man, you have to tell him he is done with this whole "friends with women" bullcrap. He cheated on you, so right there he lost any right to become best friends with other women.

[Ultramarine]

Okay so red flag on your part for you referring to him as being "needy" for wanting his wife to show him affection. I'd feel pretty pissed off if my gf called me "needy" for that.

 

I agree. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

Okay so what the hell? This guy tells you he has crushes on other women and laments about how he can't drop everything and go be with them. I can't even figure out why you didn't just dump him then and there. Happily married people don't get crushes on others.

 

I don't know. Maybe because I take my promises and commitments seriously...It didn't seem to me at that point to warrant a divorce.

 

I have to ask why you continued to allow this guy to impregnate you if the marriage was in such trouble?

 

 

1. Beats me. But we were supposedly on birth control.
   
2. I'm beginning to realize that my fear of conflicts and confrontation dictates a lot of what I do and don't do with my relationships.
   
3. At that point, this was a "Christian" marriage...so it was encouraged to forgive.
   
4. I still like him between the crappy times...or when I forget/block out the girl crap.
   
5. Even though everything in me may scream against it, I've always tried to be an open-minded person, so I try to understand others and I question myself. Which, in retrospective, is just setting myself up for more and more disappointment.
   

 

This is just flat out stupid, your husband says a lot of stupid things to you.

 

An excellent example of something I would try be open-minded about. But yes, he does. And he does it well. He is really good at debating, rationalizing, and explaining. I think he does it to himself to keep from feeling bad about his actions. Only once has he admitted to me that he actually doesn't like how his philandering hurts other people and that if he could change it, he would...

 

Okay so now I have to wonder why you even put up with this. I get you have kids, but your husband is being a terrible husband to you, if he can treat his wife with such utter disdain and disrespect I'd be wondering exactly how he treats the kids.

 

I'll have to think about this. Why I put up with it. I think I'm just trying to be nice and not throw away a family...And I really, really don't want our kids to have to pay for our mistakes.

 

As for treating the kids - he's a great dad. Best I've ever met.

Except for wanting to jeopardize their future just to make himself feel good in the short run..

 

I just have to say your husband is really bad at affairs. How many times has he been busted by the other womans boyfriend? I mean, I'm not saying affairs are good, but you'd think with as much practice as he has had..he'd be a bit better at it.

 

Good point. He sucks at hiding things. It also doesn't help that I'm a bit of public figure and it was easy to reach me for those guys.

 

She is not the kind to send nude pics, but she IS the kind who has a male best friend whilst married, which is just begging for disaster.

 

I agree. I can't do anything about it. The extent of our compromise right now is that they don't text while he's home. Does it make me feel better? Only marginally. I still know it's going on when he's away.

Apparently, they have a lot in common and she is also unhappy with her marriage but not willing to leave it just yet. They are both "free spirits" and want to travel and all...eek...I'm about to get bitter and sarcastic.

 

If for some reason you decide not to dump this man, you have to tell him he is done with this whole "friends with women" bullcrap. He cheated on you, so right there he lost any right to become best friends with other women.

 

I've told him that. Many times. In all kinds of different words. But I never gave him any serious consequences. I think he knows I don't want to leave the marriage and therefore, he feels he can walk all over me. Wow. Just writing this out makes me want to slap myself on the face and wake up.

[Ultramarine]

H came back from his counseling session and seemed confused. I think he was half expecting the counselor to tell him what he does is wrong and give him a clear list of things to do or not to do, think or not think. This, of course, didn't happen, and while the counselor expressed some surprise at his ability to emotionally detach himself from everything, she did not judge him.

 

He asked me what would my goals for his counseling be if I were the one setting goals. I said, "Figure out what you want. Do you want to have a family? Or do you want to chase girls? Make a choice." He said that in his mind, there is no need for a decision like that...

 

It sure is in mine. I've made it known to him many times but I don't think I've made it clear enough.

 

 

BTW, this most recent crisis was mostly born out of his unhappiness with life, right when we moved to the other side of the state. He is the one who started questioning our marriage and considering leaving me. I was completely blindsided and seriously thought he was going through some sort of MANopause (which is unlikely, we're both 32). This, however, made me take a closer look at our relationship, helped by his current (girl)friend-finding quest.

 

I'm wondering now if it had anything to do with his best friend - the married woman I mentioned - who he used to hang out with before we moved.

 

Also, I just told him about this thread...so it may get interesting.

[harrybrown]

Find out about his choice.

 

If he goes for the family, if he changes, you might be able to R, but he has a rough road ahead.

 

I do not know if he is up for the challenge.

 

If you had the affairs, and the roles were reversed, what would he do?

 

He needs to grow up, he has kids.

 

If he does not go for the family, you are wasting your time. He will need to pay to help support his former family.

 

 

I hope you have an attorney lined up for the D. Did the counselor tell him how his life will suck as a divorced dad?

[BetrayedH]

I definitely think you need to have some clear expectations around interactions with other women. Communicate your dealbreakers, and make them ultimatums. "If you're going to stay in this marriage, here's what I expect. First violation is my first visit to a divorce attorney." Personally, I think ALL of this stuff he's doing is unacceptable in a marriage regardless of his skills at rationalizing it. I highly recommend the book, Not Just Friends, by Shirley Glass.

 

I also have to agree with the other posters that have chimed in on the changes you're making in regards to affection, attention, and sex. Keep going. Many women just can't make this kind of change so I applaud your efforts. Much like Spectre, I was pretty dismayed at your statement about not wanting someone so "needy." Good luck finding a man that doesn't want affection, attention, and regular enthusiastic sex from his woman. Hell, with most men I'd suspect it's the recipe to keeping them happy. Still, I love your openness to being introspective and challenging what you've "learned" in the past. Keep that up.

 

At the end of the day, I think your efforts deserve some REAL commitment from your husband. If you're making real changes, he CAN cut these women out of his life for the sake of his marriage. If he's not willing, I'd day to get the eff outta there. So far, his willingness to go to individual counseling is a good step in the right direction. Kudos to him for that. Unfortunately, the IC is going to focus on what works for HIM rather than what's best for the marriage. An MC might be better so that the marriage is really the client.

 

Good luck.

Edited June 11, 2014 by BetrayedH

[pteromom]

Sure, it is normal for him to want affection and sex from his wife. But in order for YOU to feel good about giving that to him, you need to feel connected and loving toward him.

 

HIS ACTIONS are the things standing in the way of what he wants.

 

If he wants his wife to show love to him, he shouldn't be telling her he wishes he could run into another woman's arms. There ain't nothing going to slam a vagina shut faster than that!

 

He should also take your concerns seriously. It isn't as if he is some honest, faithful guy who just happens to have female friends, so he needs to quit acting like that. He is the one who created this situation where his wife is not happy about his female friends. He's the one who has crossed boundaries and killed off trust in his marriage.

 

If he wants affection and sex, he needs to be completely transparent, turn his own affection inward toward his wife, and make her feel loved and cherished. Nobody wants to feel like they are a second choice.

 

I hope he DOES come to this thread. I wrote all that hoping he does.

 

To the OP, I say:

 

You can't control what he does. You can't change who he is. But you can set standards and boundaries for yourself, and you can cut him loose if he isn't doing what he needs to do to help you get over his past infidelity.

[Mr. Lucky]

I've been looking for jobs and trying to figure out how I can be on my own (with kids) in general. We just moved very close to my family, so I would have some support when I need it.

Again, you might have a clearer picture after an initial consult with a lawyer. Your H's support obligations don't end upon separation ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[tnimbus]

Hello Ultramarine. In reading this, I have to agree with Ptero...what woman, or man, wouldn't close down on affection when their partner keeps having affairs of any sort. Also, you have 3 small, very small, children, for whom, if I read your post correctly, you are the sole caregiver. That is enough to wear a person out. No, that shouldn't completely stop affection, or sex, but some leeway has to be granted...it wears me out thinking about taking care of three small children, so I can imagine how tiring it is in rl.

 

I see some things in your post that I have had some experience with, and I can't really throw stones as a person who had an EA, for which I'm very sorry, but I feel the need to comment on your husband's ongoing online quests for "company." The keyword being "ongoing"..yes, I had an online EA, but instead of 1. keeping it going, and 2. engaging in even more of them, I STOPPED. My LTR has a rocky road ahead, but I KNOW that it has to go the way it goes on it's own, involving third parties in it isn't going to help it, that's for sure. Not judging, but your husband has to STOP his "quests" in every way, if there is to be any chance of your marriage working out.

 

I've had experience with online games as well, not WOW, but I met my XOM on one. These games are rife with "separated", married, LTR people looking for "company"...yes, there are good people who play just to play a game, but many,(many, many) are looking for something else, and being in a relationship,(or someone else being in a relationship) doesn't deter them. Having friends is one thing, being on the prowl is another...and the ones who prowl excuse it by saying "it's online, no harm". I saw a few rl marriages crumble, a few LTR's too, and mine almost did over these "games"...when my LTR asked me to stop going to online games after my EA, I did just that. Your H needs to do the same for the sake of your marriage. There is a "cheating" culture accepted on many of them as a given, and even a person who is not generally susceptible to that can fall into it very easily if things are amiss in their life. The "fantasy game relationship" takes on a life of it's own..and before you know it, your rl relationships are more of a mess, with internet-people addiction thrown in. Some people never recover from it and lose all semblance of their real lives.

 

You mentioned how he seems to "need" a bunch of female friends, and seeks them out online (and in rl), but more online, if I read correctly....and that he goes back to it again and again in cycles. From this, it sounds like he has become addicted to internet people and possibly, I don't know, just saying, cybersex. I've had experience with this too, not myself, so much, but my XOM who I met online. This man had to have a bunch of internet female "friends", he "got on with them more then men", he had to have female attention, of any sort, almost all the time, and it got worse the longer he was on online games,(and for all I know, he still does this). The last time I spoke with the XOM he was at the point of losing his job and his on-again relationship with his ex-rl wife from being addicted to internet women and online 10 hours a day. The reason that I'm writing this novel,(sorry), is that you have HELPED me greatly in seeing my XOM online in his true light, and if I can, I would like to help you back in some way.

 

Like BetrayedHusband said to me, "Ultimatums are unsavory, and no one likes them, but you have to get SERIOUS."...I think with your husband, you're going to have to make one about "internet women" (to start) and if he won't STOP even after that, you have some serious thinking to do about your own happiness and that of your children.

[Ultramarine]

Find out about his choice.

 

If he goes for the family, if he changes, you might be able to R, but he has a rough road ahead.

 

I do not know if he is up for the challenge.

 

If you had the affairs, and the roles were reversed, what would he do?

 

He needs to grow up, he has kids.

 

If he does not go for the family, you are wasting your time. He will need to pay to help support his former family.

 

 

I hope you have an attorney lined up for the D. Did the counselor tell him how his life will suck as a divorced dad?

 

 

I agree with all of this. I haven't asked him about his choice yet...I'm giving him space to think for a few more counseling sessions. Thing is, while I want our marriage to survive, I accepted that it may not. Based on our conversations over the last two days, he seems to be leaning towards keeping me and ditching the girls but I am slow and cautious to believe him.

 

I asked him a few times before what he'd do if the roles were reversed. He usually says he wouldn't want to know (which is another one of our sticking points - he thinks that as long as the BS doesn't know anything, it doesn't hurt anyone. I disagree.) But if I know anything about my husband, I think that if the tables were turned, he would give me an ultimatum after the first time and if I slipped even once, he would end the marriage.

 

I don't have an attorney yet. But I may start looking for one...Like Mr. Lucky said, good to have a clearer picture.

[pteromom]

he thinks that as long as the BS doesn't know anything, it doesn't hurt anyone. I disagree.

 

This should concern you greatly, if this is truly his belief and he isn't just saying it to defend himself.

 

If he truly believes this, you shouldn't even be having sex with him without a condom.

 

Seriously - how are you EVER going to be able to regain trust if he believes his only responsibility is to be more discreet?

[Ultramarine]

I definitely think you need to have some clear expectations around interactions with other women. Communicate your dealbreakers, and make them ultimatums. "If you're going to stay in this marriage, here's what I expect. First violation is my first visit to a divorce attorney." Personally, I think ALL of this stuff he's doing is unacceptable in a marriage regardless of his skills at rationalizing it. I highly recommend the book, Not Just Friends, by Shirley Glass.

 

The book seems relevant, thanks. I ordered one. I realize now that my lack of very clear boundaries (partly because the open-mindedness efforts, partly because of conflict avoidance) has contributed to the problem for sure. It's pretty much like seeing my kid hit someone at the park and look at him with a frown but not really say anything. I requested that H keeps all the texts and pictures with his best friend lady (he used to delete everything) as well as any other online "friends" he's still talking to. He offered for me to read everything a few times before but i haven't really taken him up on it. I don't know how much good will come out it but I think it may help with clarifying the limits of interaction that I'm sort of comfortable with.

 

Much like Spectre, I was pretty dismayed at your statement about not wanting someone so "needy." Good luck finding a man that doesn't want affection, attention, and regular enthusiastic sex from his woman. Hell, with most men I'd suspect it's the recipe to keeping them happy. Still, I love your openness to being introspective and challenging what you've "learned" in the past. Keep that up.

 

Yeah...I second guessed myself even writing that but let it be. I'm just being honest, sometimes it feels that way. Interestingly, this is the only part of my post that H commented on. I do agree though that it's perfectly reasonable for him to expect these things out of a relationship. It just seems like he needs more than I do, quite possibly because our love languages aren't all the same and speaking the other's language requires much more effort.

[Ultramarine]

Sure, it is normal for him to want affection and sex from his wife. But in order for YOU to feel good about giving that to him, you need to feel connected and loving toward him.

 

I struggle with that, yes. I am making an effort to be what he wants me to be but I have to psych myself beforehand and plan almost everything. I almost threw up yesterday after he told me that the counselor "broke him" and he spent Tuesday night on meetme (dating/social site). I am pretty much swimming against the current.

 

HIS ACTIONS are the things standing in the way of what he wants.

 

I think this is very true.

 

If he wants affection and sex, he needs to be completely transparent, turn his own affection inward toward his wife, and make her feel loved and cherished. Nobody wants to feel like they are a second choice.

 

And this.

 

You can't control what he does. You can't change who he is. But you can set standards and boundaries for yourself, and you can cut him loose if he isn't doing what he needs to do to help you get over his past infidelity.

 

Working on it . It's rather hard for me to move past "Divorce is not an option except for a PA" mindset that I have. He knows I wouldn't tolerate a PA but I've obviously tolerated other crap for too long.

[BetrayedH]

The book seems relevant, thanks. I ordered one. I realize now that my lack of very clear boundaries (partly because the open-mindedness efforts, partly because of conflict avoidance) has contributed to the problem for sure. It's pretty much like seeing my kid hit someone at the park and look at him with a frown but not really say anything. I requested that H keeps all the texts and pictures with his best friend lady (he used to delete everything) as well as any other online "friends" he's still talking to. He offered for me to read everything a few times before but i haven't really taken him up on it. I don't know how much good will come out it but I think it may help with clarifying the limits of interaction that I'm sort of comfortable with.

 

Yeah...I second guessed myself even writing that but let it be. I'm just being honest, sometimes it feels that way. Interestingly, this is the only part of my post that H commented on. I do agree though that it's perfectly reasonable for him to expect these things out of a relationship. It just seems like he needs more than I do, quite possibly because our love languages aren't all the same and speaking the other's language requires much more effort.

 

All good thoughts here ^^^^.

 

I was going to suggest the love languages book but it's apparent that you've already been there. Sounds like it resonated with you.

 

And yes, the Glass book is quite appropriate for your scenario. It's actually more important that your H read it than you but you gotta start somewhere.

 

What I would like to see is your H coming more your direction, just like you are trying to move towards his. His willingness to be transparent with his communications is a good step. I suggest you embrace it. In fact, I suggest you get him to agree that you can investigate whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want without notifying him of your methods. If he has nothing to hide, he'll hide nothing. The cool thing is that when you investigate and find nothing, you both win. This is his opportunity to rebuild trust. And it's your chance to verify that it's all legit. "Snooping" is kinda counter-intuitive but when there are legit trust issues to address, it's a step that too many shy away from. I say embrace it. In a marriage, privacy is for the bathroom. You are partners in life; get rid of the secrets. And as you mentioned, you may learn a lot more about where your real boundaries and dealbreakers lie. Then you can communicate them and he can adhere to them. Win-win.

 

I think you're doing well. Try not to be desperate to save the marriage at all costs because sometimes the cost is just too high. Try to keep making decisions with your head rather than your emotions. And keep going. I see progress but at the same time, I only have the luxury of speaking with one of you.

Edited June 13, 2014 by BetrayedH

[pteromom]

It's rather hard for me to move past "Divorce is not an option except for a PA" mindset that I have. He knows I wouldn't tolerate a PA but I've obviously tolerated other crap for too long.

 

But he's already told you there is nothing wrong with an affair as long as your partner doesn't know, because what they don't know doesn't hurt them... right? So how do you know he isn't or hasn't had a PA? He could just be keeping you in the dark to be true to his values.

 

Divorce IS an option. You need to crush that mindset.

 

If he isn't willing to be true to you... in body AND in heart... he does not deserve you.

[Ultramarine]

I feel the need to comment on your husband's ongoing online quests for "company." The keyword being "ongoing"..yes, I had an online EA, but instead of 1. keeping it going, and 2. engaging in even more of them, I STOPPED. My LTR has a rocky road ahead, but I KNOW that it has to go the way it goes on it's own, involving third parties in it isn't going to help it, that's for sure. Not judging, but your husband has to STOP his "quests" in every way, if there is to be any chance of your marriage working out.

 

tnimbus, thanks for your comment. I read your recent thread and was telling my H how I could relate...Your LTP sounds like a more extreme version of myself. Maybe what I could be like when I'm older...and I don't like it. Seeing it from your perspective helped me understand where my H is coming from a bit better.

 

You mentioned how he seems to "need" a bunch of female friends, and seeks them out online (and in rl), but more online, if I read correctly....and that he goes back to it again and again in cycles. From this, it sounds like he has become addicted to internet people and possibly, I don't know, just saying, cybersex. I've had experience with this too, not myself, so much, but my XOM who I met online. This man had to have a bunch of internet female "friends", he "got on with them more then men", he had to have female attention, of any sort, almost all the time, and it got worse the longer he was on online games,(and for all I know, he still does this).

 

I'm afraid I've seen some of this. Even before you mentioned it, I thought it looked quite a bit like an addiction. Binging at the start of the cycle, withdrawal at the end, prioritizing the online "friends" over the family and certainly me, complete lack of interest in anything other than talking to the girls, etc. I don't think he sees it as as much of a problem though.

 

And about cybersex...we'll need to talk. I never asked. We had a brief conversation recently on why I thought porn was okay but real time interaction was not. He said porn was boring...vs the excitement of a real person on the other end of the screen/phone/whatever. So...yeah.

 

Same about PAs that pteromom mentions. I see some difficult conversations in the near future. I'm hoping they will be short.

[Ultramarine]

So...some developments here. H says he made the decision to "stay with me" (vs. leaving...not vs. chasing girls). I asked him if he can make the "me vs the girls" decision but he pretty much evaded the question. Said I've made him feel loved and all that in the last 1-2 weeks (which I have been trying to do) so, given the apparent benefit of such a relationship, he wants to stay and focus on us being happy as a couple/family. Also, that he has "no intention" of cheating in the future, but, of course, can't promise he won't. And that if he made the decision two months ago (timing of his crisis), it would have been in favor of the girls. At least, I appreciate him being honest (in that part of the conversation).

 

H did admit that even though wandering is in his nature, it's wrong when it hurts relationships and that it's one of the main reasons he's currently in IC. He said that he wants to work on it and would like me to help him by keeping him accountable.

 

All of this is fine and dandy...except I don't feel good about it at all. I told him that I would like to move past the infidelity issues and, in order to do that, I need to dig up the past and deal with it. I need to know everything that's been swept under the rug and I need to feel the feelings (negative, of course) that I've been avoiding/burying/ignoring for years. I don't see any other way to get over it.

 

When I brought up the past, he let me ask a few questions but became defensive very quickly...said that everyone is entitled to have their secrets (I agree, but only when those are not secrets concerning our relationship) and that there is no point for me to dredge up the dirt. Here's where this quote comes to mind:

But he's already told you there is nothing wrong with an affair as long as your partner doesn't know, because what they don't know doesn't hurt them... right? So how do you know he isn't or hasn't had a PA? He could just be keeping you in the dark to be true to his values.

 

Yeah...He kept saying that it's my problem that I want to dwell on the past and not look forward to the bright future. I really don't see how I can trust him in the future if he doesn't even let me in on what has already happened in the past.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Ultramarine, Just a few quick questions. How did the two of you meet? How long did you date? What did you see in your future husband and what do you think he saw in you?

 

It seems to me your marriage was flawed from the very beginning. Are you both from the same ethnicity? I ask because you mentioned something about your being from a Ukrainian background. With the kind of facts you have written with respect to your husband I would think it would be extremely difficult for the two of you to be able to reconcile and have a happy marriage. You are both very different people with very different mind sets. Just give it a very serious thought. Cheers!

[Friskyone4u]

Well, you two obviously need some marriage counseling, but it seems like you recognize your faults and are trying to work on them and he is telling you to just accept his desires and live with it. And I do think he is taking advantage that he is breadwinner to emotionally take advantage of you. You can't insulate him from females but he is carrying it much further than just friendship and is going to cheat on you in PA eventually. Sounds like he wants a poly amorous or open marriage.

I would try MC to see if there is any chance he will stop this behavior which is obviously hurting you. At the same time I would see an attorney so you know exactly what your rights financially are.

Lastly, I am a man , and a lot of men who act like him think it is fine until they get a dose of their own medicine. He might not think his friendship style is so great if you start doing the same thing and he is the one doing the wondering. That's not in my opinion the most preferential solution but I have know friends who thought they were avid swingers until they saw their wife on another mans penis. That fixed them quick.

I'd do the MC . Right now you are getting the short end of the stick

[BetrayedH]

So...some developments here. H says he made the decision to "stay with me" (vs. leaving...not vs. chasing girls). I asked him if he can make the "me vs the girls" decision but he pretty much evaded the question. Said I've made him feel loved and all that in the last 1-2 weeks (which I have been trying to do) so, given the apparent benefit of such a relationship, he wants to stay and focus on us being happy as a couple/family. Also, that he has "no intention" of cheating in the future, but, of course, can't promise he won't. And that if he made the decision two months ago (timing of his crisis), it would have been in favor of the girls. At least, I appreciate him being honest (in that part of the conversation).

 

H did admit that even though wandering is in his nature, it's wrong when it hurts relationships and that it's one of the main reasons he's currently in IC. He said that he wants to work on it and would like me to help him by keeping him accountable.

 

All of this is fine and dandy...except I don't feel good about it at all. I told him that I would like to move past the infidelity issues and, in order to do that, I need to dig up the past and deal with it. I need to know everything that's been swept under the rug and I need to feel the feelings (negative, of course) that I've been avoiding/burying/ignoring for years. I don't see any other way to get over it.

 

When I brought up the past, he let me ask a few questions but became defensive very quickly...said that everyone is entitled to have their secrets (I agree, but only when those are not secrets concerning our relationship) and that there is no point for me to dredge up the dirt. Here's where this quote comes to mind:

 

 

Yeah...He kept saying that it's my problem that I want to dwell on the past and not look forward to the bright future. I really don't see how I can trust him in the future if he doesn't even let me in on what has already happened in the past.

 

Screw that.

[Ultramarine]

Hi Ultramarine, Just a few quick questions. How did the two of you meet? How long did you date? What did you see in your future husband and what do you think he saw in you?

 

It seems to me your marriage was flawed from the very beginning. Are you both from the same ethnicity? I ask because you mentioned something about your being from a Ukrainian background. With the kind of facts you have written with respect to your husband I would think it would be extremely difficult for the two of you to be able to reconcile and have a happy marriage. You are both very different people with very different mind sets. Just give it a very serious thought. Cheers!

 

We met online, on a Christian dating site. At the time, I was under the impression that finding a good Christian boy would save me from the heartbreak. We dated for a bit over a year...broke up two or three times in that span of time. Fought quite a lot, both when dating and into the first years of our marriage. Mostly, whenever he was unhappy about something...I have always been reluctant to start arguments (now I know it's called conflict avoidance and it hasn't been a good thing for me), so I mostly ignored and internalized things I was unhappy about.

 

What I saw in him was what I wanted to see in him. Confidence, intelligence, sense of humor, sensitivity and caring. The most beautiful smile. He seemed to know what he wanted and how to get there and I needed some direction and I needed to feel safe. I thought he would take care of me. When we met, I was still recovering from a breakup that happened two years before then, I was still getting used to living in a different country and I still lived with my parents.

 

What he saw in me...I think he usually says that I was pretty and smart. But the same thing I said above is probably true here, I bet he saw what he wanted to see. Nice Slavic girl who would make him feel loved and wanted. Smart and pretty as a bonus.

 

We are not from the same ethnicity, but I don't see a problem here at all. I'm Ukrainian, he's American. There may be some differences in how we perceived our roles in the marriage and some cultural effects when it comes to dating, interaction with opposite sex and infidelity - but I think most of those are individual and have little to do with ethnicity.

 

I have considered the possibility of us having made the wrong choice. And we are, in fact, very different. But...I don't know...it's very difficult for me to scrap it and just blame my poor judgement seven years ago. I still love him...everything infidelity-related aside, probably more than I did at the beginning of our marriage. He has shown some consistent effort this past week in trying to make things right between us. My only fear, albeit a very strong one, is that eventually, he will get tired of the effort and go back to what comes easy and hurt me again. That...I can't take.

 

And I know that it is very rare that people really change. And if they do, it's only because they want it for themselves. I want to be more caring and affectionate and sexual for myself, and I only started changing when I realized that. I really hope he has the internal drive and perseverance to change...