Infant screams until he gets what he wants or what?

[KathyM]

I disagree with this. I mean, I agree that nighttime isn't for playing, but I do not believe that a baby has to be left on their own all night by 6 months.

 

My child definitely has learned how to self-soothe. He transitioned from feeling safe in my arms to feeling safe out of them quite well.

 

I am firmly in the "you can't spoil a child with love" camp.

I'm not advocating leaving him alone all night if he is awake and crying. I'm advocating helping him to gradually learn good sleep habits and learn to sleep for longer periods and be able to get to sleep on his own after a good bedtime routine, and learn to get back to sleep on his own after he wakes during the night.

 

 

You can spoil a child with too much attention. If he's used to having a lot of attention during the night, after he no longer needs the nightly feedings, he will expect that attention and, in fact, demand that.

[KathyM]

This is definitely NOT my experience, and I parented very similarly to your niece. Of course, what is done in the daytime has impact too, and I encouraged other people holding and comforting, spending time away from me, etc. I do not believe that your niece's experience is due to sleep training alone.

Her experience was due to many things. She generally "hovered" and was overly hypervigilent, but at night and during the daytime, and so her child learned that, when mommy is not there, she is not safe. She would leave her child with close relatives, or later for short periods with child care workers on a limited basis, but it was always torment for her child when her mother was not there. She was inconsolable. That is because the mother gave her the message through her hypervigilence that she is not safe if the mother is not there. I used to work at the church nursery for preschoolers one evening a week, and there would always be some parents who were hovering and lingering, and giving their child too much attention upon their attempting departure. Of course, those children were the fearful ones who had a hard time with separation anxiety. Those parents who were more relaxed and brought their child to the nursery, gave them a quick goodbye and left, had children who happily adopted to the nursery activities, or had some brief tears upon their parent leaving, but soon started to play. Those with the helicopter/hovering parents were inconsolable the whole time their parent was gone.

[KathyM]

CPSC Warns Against Placing Babies in Adult Beds; Study finds 64 deaths each year from suffocation and strangulation | CPSC.gov

 

 

It stands to reason that sleeping in an adult bed is not safe for babies. They could be suffocated by adult pillows or bedding. They could become entrapped between the mattress and the bed frame. They could have a parent roll over on them during sleep. The mattress is not firm enough for a baby, and he could have his mouth and nose covered by the softer mattress that an adult bed would provide. The APA recommends that the baby sleep in his own safe crib, on a firm mattress, and a crib that meets current safety standards.

[lollipopspot]

It depends on how co-sleeping i done though, doesn't it. I mean, lot of things aren't safe for babies if done in a careless way.

 

Co-sleeping warnings are based on imprecise science: I began my pediatric career in academic medicine and teaching in university hospitals. At that time, I learned an important lesson about scientific research: When the conclusions of a scientific study and common sense don't match, suspect faulty science. Both Dr. McKenna's writings and my two books mentioned above contain information that proves the original studies that triggered the "alarm" about co-sleeping were flawed.

 

In addition, scientists have yet to come to a universal agreement on the definition of co-sleeping. I've always considered co-sleeping to mean bed-sharing or sleeping within arm's reach of mother; however, it can also be defined as simply being close to mom or sleeping in the parents' bedroom. No matter your interpretation, you will find general agreement among all SIDS researchers, pediatricians, and the American Academy of Pediatrics that sleeping in the same room with parents lowers the risk of SIDS.

 

Co-sleeping is as safe as the conditions you practice: For obvious reasons, parents under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or medications that interfere with normal sleep patterns should never have their baby in their bed. Other safeguards to employ:

 

Sleep in a king-size bed if possible, to give everybody enough room.

Be sure there are no wide crevices between the mattress and the guardrail or headboard that your baby's head could sink into.

Never allow infants to sleep in the same bed with siblings or caregivers - they may not have the same awareness of a baby's presence that parents do.

Don't fall asleep with your baby on a surface that isn't firm, such as a couch or a beanbag chair; she could suffocate by getting wedged between the cushions.

Many parents have resolved co-sleeping worries by using a bedside co-sleeper: a crib-like bed that attaches securely to the side of your mattress. This allows you to have your own sleeping space on your bed, while your baby sleeps within arm's reach for easy nursing and comforting.

 

I hope you continue to enjoy co-sleeping with your baby, practice it safely, and reap the rewards of feeling more connected with each other. Just remember -- wherever you and your baby get the best night's sleep is the right arrangement for your family.

Ask Dr. Sears: Co-Sleeping a SIDS Danger? | Parenting

[Haydn]

You are serious? I never had any such problems. From a wee babe my daughter was in with us. Moved to her own room and no worries. Still climbs in early morning. You read too much. Just get on with it. Whatever suits or feels good, parents should do.

 

CPSC Warns Against Placing Babies in Adult Beds; Study finds 64 deaths each year from suffocation and strangulation | CPSC.gov

 

 

It stands to reason that sleeping in an adult bed is not safe for babies. They could be suffocated by adult pillows or bedding. They could become entrapped between the mattress and the bed frame. They could have a parent roll over on them during sleep. The mattress is not firm enough for a baby, and he could have his mouth and nose covered by the softer mattress that an adult bed would provide. The APA recommends that the baby sleep in his own safe crib, on a firm mattress, and a crib that meets current safety standards.

[KathyM]

It depends on how co-sleeping i done though, doesn't it. I mean, lot of things aren't safe for babies if done in a careless way.

 

 

Ask Dr. Sears: Co-Sleeping a SIDS Danger? | Parenting

The point is that an adult bed is not safe for a baby to sleep in. It has pillows and bedding which a child could suffocate with. The mattress is not firm enough, and the baby could become entrapped between the mattress and the headboard or bedframe.

[KathyM]

You are serious? I never had any such problems. From a wee babe my daughter was in with us. Moved to her own room and no worries. Still climbs in early morning. You read too much. Just get on with it. Whatever suits or feels good, parents should do.

Well, just because your daughter did not get harmed by it doesn't make it a good idea. An adult bed does pose a risk of suffocation, strangulation, and entrapment. It's also hard to ween the child to his own bed after he has become accustomed to sleeping with parents. It also inhibits sexual relations between parents. I think the negatives and risks are too great, and the rewards of the family bed, if any, are not worth the risks/negatives.

[Haydn]

Dr Sears says so. Take heed.

[Haydn]

Like i said, whatever parents feel comfortable with. No judgements.

[KathyM]

Dr Sears says so. Take heed.

lol. I'll take the other experts' opinion instead. Adult beds don't meet proper safety codes for babies. They pose too many risks, and are meant for adults.

[pteromom]

An adult bed does pose a risk of suffocation, strangulation, and entrapment.

 

This is true. Great care needs to be taken in co-sleeping.

 

It's also hard to ween the child to his own bed after he has become accustomed to sleeping with parents.

 

This is not necessarily true.

 

It also inhibits sexual relations between parents.

 

And this is a benefit!

 

I keed, I keed.

 

Seriously though, it isn't as if you can't find creative ways and places to have sex.

 

I think the negatives and risks are too great, and the rewards of the family bed, if any, are not worth the risks/negatives.

 

I never did the "family bed" thing, but I have no problems with a child climbing into my bed in the night, or with lying with me for a bit before I go to sleep. Closeness is beautiful.

 

If I HAD to choose between co-sleeping and CIO, I'd choose co-sleeping in a heartbeat.

[lollipopspot]

lol. I'll take the other experts' opinion instead. Adult beds don't meet proper safety codes for babies. They pose too many risks, and are meant for adults.

 

There isn't only one way to co-sleep with one's child...

 

Bedsharing is another form of cosleeping which can be made either safe or unsafe, but it is not intrinsically one nor the other.... This is akin to suggesting that because some parents drive drunk with their infants in their cars, unstrapped into car seats, and because some of these babies die in car accidents that nobody can drive with babies in their cars because obviously car transportation for infants is fatal. You see the point.

 

One of the most important reasons why bedsharing occurs, and the reason why simple declarations against it will not eradicate it, is because sleeping next to one’s baby is biologically appropriate, unlike placing infants prone to sleep or putting an infant in a room to sleep by itself. This is particularly so when bedsharing is associated with breast feeding.

 

When done safely, mother-infant cosleeping saves infants lives and contributes to infant and maternal health and well being. Merely having an infant sleeping in a room with a committed adult caregiver (cosleeping) reduces the chances of an infant dying from SIDS or from an accident by one half!

 

Research

 

In Japan where co-sleeping and breastfeeding (in the absence of maternal smoking) is the cultural norm, rates of the sudden infant death syndrome are the lowest in the world. For breastfeeding mothers, bedsharing makes breastfeeding much easier to manage and practically doubles the amount of breastfeeding sessions while permitting both mothers and infants to spend more time asleep. The increased exposure to mother’s antibodies which comes with more frequent nighttime breastfeeding can potentially, per any given infant, reduce infant illness. And because co-sleeping in the form of bedsharing makes breastfeeding easier for mothers, it encourages them to breastfeed for a greater number of months, according to Dr. Helen Ball’s studies at the University of Durham, therein potentially reducing the mothers chances of breast cancer. Indeed, the benefits of cosleeping helps explain why simply telling parents never to sleep with baby is like suggesting that nobody should eat fats and sugars since excessive fats and sugars lead to obesity and/or death from heart disease, diabetes or cancer. Obviously, there’s a whole lot more to the story.

 

As regards bedsharing, an expanded version of its function and effects on the infant’s biology helps us to understand not only why the bedsharing debate refuses to go away, but why the overwhelming majority of parents in the United States (over 50% according to the most recent national survey) now sleep in bed for part or all of the night with their babies.

 

That the highest rates of bedsharing worldwide occur alongside the lowest rates of infant mortality, including Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) rates, is a point worth returning to. It is an important beginning point...

Cosleeping and Biological Imperatives: Why Human Babies Do Not and Should Not Sleep Alone « Neuroanthropology

[alwayshere]

Like i said, whatever parents feel comfortable with. No judgements.

 

I wish more parents could figure this one out. And non-parents? Well, talk to me when you're a parent.

 

To clarify, I agree with KathyM, but I am not going to berate someone who doesn't. Or be childish and sarcastic. Sadly, lots of parenting discussions tend to devolve.

Edited June 13, 2014 by alwayshere

[KathyM]

I wish more parents could figure this one out. And non-parents? Well, talk to me when you're a parent.

 

To clarify, I agree with KathyM, but I am not going to berate someone who doesn't. Or be childish and sarcastic. Sadly, lots of parenting discussions tend to devolve.

No one is being childish, sarcastic, or berating anyone on this thread. We are all having an intelligent discussion on the pros and cons of co-sleeping, and the risks involved, as well as debating the topic of child sleeping practices.

[alwayshere]

No one is being childish, sarcastic, or berating anyone on this thread. We are all having an intelligent discussion on the pros and cons of co-sleeping, and the risks involved, as well as debating the topic of child sleeping practices.

 

I agree. And that was certainly not directed in any way toward you. I enjoy reading your posts, and you always are respectful.

[tbf]

We picked up both our boys and even stayed with them when they needed us to fall asleep with. This was enforced with their nanny who agreed to abide by this.

 

No problems with them falling asleep now by themselves. They're both very confident, secure and happy children, our older one more loud and rambunctious where our younger one is a bit more quiet and introspective.

[Silly_Girl]

Apparently as a precautionary measure related to SIDS during early infancy, and in their own crib, but if the baby stops breathing suddenly during sleep, as what happens in SIDS, that is not going to wake parents up who are sleeping in the room. I don't see how that will prevent SIDS, or reduce the risk. Certainly, if the baby is sleeping in the parents' bed, the child is more likely to die from SIDS or suffocation. That is what I have read, and I did a research project on SIDS a few years back. And good luck with getting a child to sleep in his own room once he has developed a pattern of sleeping in a parent's room and having his parent in the room whenever he is sleeping. I've always used a baby monitor with my babies so that I could hear every sound in their room, so that if there is an issue, I would hear it. And what happens during naptime then, is the mother supposed to stay in the room the whole time during morning and afternoon naps to keep a watchful eye on her baby during every sleeping moment? That's just not doable or feasible, and fosters a dependence which is hard to break when the baby gets older.

 

The norm here in the UK is that baby shares a room (if not a bed) with parents until AT LEAST 6 months.

 

KathyM, have you read up again on SIDS recently? - the room-sharing is not so that parents can spot if their child is struggling to breathe. Instead, although the causes of SIDS are still not known, large data sets indicate that sleeping in the same room greatly reduces the risk. It appears it may be linked to a sleep apnea-type behaviour. By sharing a room the baby hears noises and is unlikely to go in to a secondary, much deeper sleep that he/she is unable to rouse themselves from.

 

It's nothing at all to do with dependence on parents. And I'm not sure why I baby *shouldn't* be dependent on their parents... that's what we're there for and it's beautiful and wonderful

[Silly_Girl]

Sleeping in the same bed with a baby is certainly not a good thing. That increases the risk of SIDS and suffocation.

 

Not if done properly.

[Silly_Girl]

Sleep training is evil. EVIL. At least in the crying-it-out context. It actually leads to insecure fretful babies, not independent, secure, happy babies.

 

There are ways to promote good overnight habits without being cruel, such as low lighting and no chatting/play for nighttime feeds, good pre-bed routines, have baby sleep with/close by you so you can easily settle him/her when needed to prevent big crying bouts overnight, correct clothing/warmth... I never let my child cry or demanded they self-settle. Both my babies have been excellent sleepers (although my youngest is only 7 weeks so there's plenty of time for it to change!).

Edited June 14, 2014 by Silly_Girl

[Janesays]

My baby sleeps in our room, just not in our bed. Because I'll be darned if I'm going to schlep to the other side of the house when she wakes up to nurse...and then schlep all the way back to my room.

 

You know what else kills marriages? Angry sleep deprived parents.

[alwayshere]

Sleep training is evil. EVIL. At least in the crying-it-out context. It actually leads to insecure fretful babies, not independent, secure, happy babies.

 

There are ways to promote good overnight habits without being cruel, such as low lighting and no chatting/play for nighttime feeds, good pre-bed routines, have baby sleep with/close by you so you can easily settle him/her when needed to prevent big crying bouts overnight, correct clothing/warmth... I never let my child cry or demanded they self-settle. Both my babies have been excellent sleepers (although my youngest is only 7 weeks so there's plenty of time for it to change!).

 

I rest my case

[lucy_in_disguise]

It's funny to me how a simple topic like sleep results in 5 pages of contrasting, passionate viewpoints.

 

From my point of view, it seems there are pros and cons with any method, and quantifying all the risks as they apply to your particular situation is no simple feat. Though "staring" baby down while he screams "bloody murder" for several hours does not constitute a "method", IMO.

 

Can you all agree to disagree that what is best for you and your child may not be best for someone else?

[Silly_Girl]

Can you all agree to disagree that what is best for you and your child may not be best for someone else?

 

I can agree to disagree. Of course

 

But I don't believe that young babies in a room alone or cry-it-out sleep training is good for anyone. Same as I'll never agree that smacking is best for some children.

 

If it were a pet thread and someone's techniques were well-intentioned yet cruel, I'd hope others who felt passionately spoke up.

 

And yes, the cruel part is subjective, but that's not the point.

[Giggle]

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in without reading the rest of the thread because these debates make me twitch

 

I slept with each and every of my 5 kids. They slept between me and the wall. I do not have the risk factors that make co-sleeping unsafe. It was awesome. They would make a little bit of fussing, and i would instantly be awake.. Just enough to give them a boob, and go right back to sleep. So we had heavenly amounts of nice sleep.

 

Our sex life did not suffer as my ex continued to get the twice a month he wanted. That was all he wanted before kids too.

 

Getting the kids out? Really wasn't that big of a deal. They aren't still there lol. Grown people don't like sleeping by themselves, why would a baby? I loooooved having them next to me.

[KathyM]

We picked up both our boys and even stayed with them when they needed us to fall asleep with. This was enforced with their nanny who agreed to abide by this.

 

No problems with them falling asleep now by themselves. They're both very confident, secure and happy children, our older one more loud and rambunctious where our younger one is a bit more quiet and introspective.

I did that too with my first son - made sure he was asleep before leaving the room, and trying to carefully ease him into bed after he fell asleep in my arms, so as not to wake him up. When he woke up later and realized I was not there, he wouldn't be able to get back to sleep on his own. He had become dependent on me being there before he can go to sleep, and dependent on my being there every time he woke up and needed to go back to sleep, instead of learning to go to sleep on his own. I agree with the experts who are saying that a baby should be helped to learn to go to sleep on his own after his bedtime ritual is done, and helped to learn to go back to sleep on his own after he no longer needs feedings at night.

 

 

My three kids are also very confident, capable, independent and well adjusted young men. So are the two sons of our friends who recommended the sleep training to us when they observed my immediately going to respond to my 6 month old's waking every couple of hours.

Edited June 16, 2014 by KathyM