If God alredy knows if I'm going to hell or heaven what's the point in praying?

[bostonterrier]

And the more I try to believe the harder it is.

[TheFinalWord]

And the more I try to believe the harder it is.

 

This can get very complicated, if you try to break it down philosophically. Craig holds to a middle-knowledge approach:

[KathyM]

Because you have the power to determine your fate - whether you go to heaven or hell. God offers you the gift of life in heaven with Him if you will believe in Him and accept His path to heaven. It's up to you if you want to accept that offer. That gift. Praying has multiple purposes. It is a way to honor God and respect/acknowledge His authority, to express your concerns to Him and ask for guidance and forgiveness.

[2sunny]

How about praying for OTHERS?

 

No need to think of yourself so much - Rewards come when we pray and do for others.

[jay1983]

You don't necessarily have to pray for salvation. How bout that special someone, new job, car won't breakdown, AC/heat gets fixed.

[umirano]

Do you think god cares about your A/C? God doesn't give a damn about millions of kids starving, suffering from diseases or having to watch their parents raped and killed in front of them (or vice versa). What makes you think he cares about your withe people problems?

 

People who pray, for whatever stupid or not so stupid thing to happen, should know best that there's no god.

[umirano]

And the more I try to believe the harder it is.

 

You're bang on the money. Prayer doesn't work. Just look at how the most religious places/people in the world suffer most.

 

Belief = ignoring facts and logic

 

This in turn leads to bad technical / medical / political decision making, thus the suffering.

[todreaminblue]

Haven't read a lot about this but i know god wants to hear from you praying is communication it brings blessings and it also brings peace......

 

 

I personally feel if the consequences of me, leading the life i have lived is to go to hell then i deserve that consequence because god is a just god.....but....i am not stopping to pray to him because i have done something in my life that pointed me to go to hell,or the other way guaranteed to enter heaven ...i wont sleep without praying.....

 

 

 

i have a tendency to go off and swear and praying gives me the opportunity to say hey im really sorry god didnt mean it truly.....

 

 

 

see i understand people go NO CONTACT when they are pissed at people.I have never been able to go no contact with god(cant really do it to people either) as i have a conscience and i dont blame him fro my mistakes or dont take consequences of my own actions.he never went no contact with me.....and even when i did wrong he helped em to see what was wrong and how to fix it...........and when people hurt me...god has often been the only one who listened and was there for me......cold nights colder people and prayers to get through when i shut my eyes and no roof over my head to block out the starshine........and i did survive everything...with his help and guidance i wouldnt have made it otherwise.........deb

[pureinheart]

Do you think god cares about your A/C? God doesn't give a damn about millions of kids starving, suffering from diseases or having to watch their parents raped and killed in front of them (or vice versa). What makes you think he cares about your withe people problems?

 

People who pray, for whatever stupid or not so stupid thing to happen, should know best that there's no god.

 

You sound like you do, what in fact are you doing to elevate this problem? Serious question.

 

I know many Christian, Bible believing organizations who are led by God and through their prayers and others are making a difference. Also the help and money get to the people unlike many secular organizations where most of the donations are spent on administration costs (which are unusually high for some reason).

[pureinheart]

Haven't read a lot about this but i know god wants to hear from you praying is communication it brings blessings and it also brings peace......

 

 

I personally feel if the consequences of me, leading the life i have lived is to go to hell then i deserve that consequence because god is a just god.....but....i am not stopping to pray to him because i have done something in my life that pointed me to go to hell,or the other way guaranteed to enter heaven ...i wont sleep without praying.....

 

 

 

i have a tendency to go off and swear and praying gives me the opportunity to say hey im really sorry god didnt mean it truly.....

 

 

 

see i understand people go NO CONTACT when they are pissed at people.I have never been able to go no contact with god(cant really do it to people either) as i have a conscience and i dont blame him fro my mistakes or dont take consequences of my own actions.he never went no contact with me.....and even when i did wrong he helped em to see what was wrong and how to fix it...........and when people hurt me...god has often been the only one who listened and was there for me......cold nights colder people and prayers to get through when i shut my eyes and no roof over my head to block out the starshine........and i did survive everything...with his help and guidance i wouldnt have made it otherwise.........deb

 

You are so real!

[todreaminblue]

You are so real!

 

 

 

thats the biggest compliment thank you glad you can see me......by proxy internet....smilin..did you know in oz that it used to be unreal was an excellent conjecture in aussie slang.........like "you're unreal banana peel"..meaning you are excellent and dr suessing it fro fun......i prefer real always have..because it would confuse me for a split second and then a voice inside me would say...... they mean good .....and i would go ohhhh back and smile and say thanks....... and i must have look confused because they suddenly looked confused too at complimenting me.....i think my mouth hangs a bit open when i am confused before i smile.....so yeah real is good....lol.........hugs..deb

[umirano]

You sound like you do, what in fact are you doing to elevate this problem? Serious question.

I'm sorry I don't understand this sentence.

 

I know many Christian, Bible believing organizations who are led by God

How do you know they're led by god and not the chairman?

 

and through their prayers and others are making a difference.

I'd like to see how prayers make a difference. I'm sure most parents of little kids with diseases or heart insufficiency pray endlessly and imploringly. Doesn't seem to make a difference at all. But research and hard work do.

 

Also the help and money get to the people unlike many secular organizations where most of the donations are spent on administration costs (which are unusually high for some reason).

It's OT because even if you were right (which you aren't) it would still be people doing the right thing, and not god or prayers. Either way, do you have a source for that? I look at megalomaniac church architecture and interior design and I see that it's about power and fancy ceremonies more than about anything else, especially compassionate help.

[todreaminblue]

I'm sorry I don't understand this sentence.

 

 

How do you know they're led by god and not the chairman?

 

 

I'd like to see how prayers make a difference. I'm sure most parents of little kids with diseases or heart insufficiency pray endlessly and imploringly. Doesn't seem to make a difference at all. But research and hard work do.

 

 

It's OT because even if you were right (which you aren't) it would still be people doing the right thing, and not god or prayers. Either way, do you have a source for that? I look at megalomaniac church architecture and interior design and I see that it's about power and fancy ceremonies more than about anything else, especially compassionate help.

 

 

ill pray for you to see the light ......but only you can take it into your heart when you see it......

 

 

if you dont accept you wont want to see it....so you can close yourself off or open yourself up...arguing your point is moot.........with people who have true faith you cant change their mind you can bash them to bits they wont change...... however it has been known on occasion to happen the other way around .....non believers becoming believers....power of faith is in your heart and your ability to stand firm you wont get back down on people of faith here just agreeing to respect your views while holding their own beliefs and letting you make your own mind and heart up..as usual all they try to do is help to give hope........as pureinheart says help others compassionately.......you just have proof of that right there unpaid effort, bothering to answer you and be thoughtful and respectful at the same time they are most definitely christian principles and a sign of strong faithful action.........no personal gain....deb

[umirano]

ill pray for you to see the light ......but only you can take it into your heart when you see it......

Thanks deb, but I'll be fine going to hell, seems like all the cool kids are going to be there anyway. And I don't want to hang out with all the child molesters in the sky. (disclaimer: I'm just messing with you I don't believe in neither)

 

if you dont accept you wont want to see it....so you can close yourself off or open yourself up...arguing your point is moot

Not really, I think it's a worthwhile exercise to point out the logical and moral flaws in holding a religious belief.

 

.........with people who have true faith you cant change their mind you can bash them to bits they wont change......

I know quite a few believers who've changed their view and are now non-believers.

 

however it has been known on occasion to happen the other way around .....non believers becoming believers....power of faith is in your heart and your ability to stand firm you wont get back down on people of faith here just agreeing to respect your views while holding their own beliefs and letting you make your own mind and heart up

That's what we're doing, right? You present your points of view, and I present mine.

 

..as usual all they try to do is help to give hope........as pureinheart says help others compassionately.......

pureinhart is not the only one saying that, nor are believers as a whole.

 

you just have proof of that right there unpaid effort, bothering to answer you and be thoughtful and respectful at the same time they are most definitely christian principles and a sign of strong faithful action.........no personal gain....deb

Sure. I'd like to make it known that I post here also without incurring personal gain other than a feeling of fulfillment from posting and from positive replies that I get from time to time. And I'm not a believer of any sort.

 

But to really be precise, what of whatever good things pureinhart did or does, or any other believer for that matter, is through god and not the person itself?

 

Does it mean without god a believer would be an evil person of the worst kind, that there would be left nothing good in that person?

 

I have much more respect for most believers I know than that. I think they're good people despite being religious. Religion is just a crutch for them that they don't yet know isn't necessary anymore.

[jay1983]

You're bang on the money. Prayer doesn't work. Just look at how the most religious places/people in the world suffer most.

 

Belief = ignoring facts and logic

 

This in turn leads to bad technical / medical / political decision making, thus the suffering.

 

This isn't a debate about fate, you should really respect people's beliefs and culture and mind your own.

[umirano]

This isn't a debate about fate

I suppose you mean 'faith'? Well it is, very much so. Look at the opening post that I quoted. It burns down to the question "Does prayer change anything in the real world?", i.e. faith in prayer and even faith in god's fairness. And I explained why I think the answer is a resounding NO.

, you should really respect people's beliefs

Could you explain to me where I am being disrespectful? I am pointing out why I think believing (=having faith) in the efficiency of prayer or a fair god is not reasonable. That's not disrespectful IMO. If you cannot handle other opinions beside your own an online forum - freely discussing precisely this matter - may not be the right place for you.

and culture and mind your own.

The problem is, I live with religious people and the fallout they create in politics and society. I have a right, and even the moral duty, to make my POV known and explained.

[jay1983]

I suppose you mean 'faith'? Well it is, very much so. Look at the opening post that I quoted. It burns down to the question "Does prayer change anything in the real world?", i.e. faith in prayer and even faith in god's fairness. And I explained why I think the answer is a resounding NO.

Could you explain to me where I am being disrespectful? I am pointing out why I think believing (=having faith) in the efficiency of prayer or a fair god is not reasonable. That's not disrespectful IMO. If you cannot handle other opinions beside your own an online forum - freely discussing precisely this matter - may not be the right place for you.

 

The problem is, I live with religious people and the fallout they create in politics and society. I have a right, and even the moral duty, to make my POV known and explained.

 

And your free to believe whatever you want, but if tell no no no you need jesus, I'd be disrespecting you.

[umirano]

you should really respect people's beliefs

 

That's a cheap attack that many believers resort to in these debates.

 

People should be respected. Ideas and beliefs deserve no respect. They deserve scrutiny. If they withstand thorough scrutiny they can become useful.

 

Religions are not useful, they're damaging. They balkanize society into different moral communities, they make absurd claims about the world we live in, disregarding the knowledge about our world, they disrespect the human mind and nature. They poison decision making and hinder ethical progress.

 

If we went by your logic, we should respect national socialism, racism and other abhorrent ideas. No thanks.

[umirano]

if tell no no no you need jesus, I'd be disrespecting you.

If you were able to show me how "jesus" and everything that comes with it makes me a better person than I am without, and the world a better place, no.

 

And by "show" I mean real proof that can be examined by two or more independent individuals.

 

So far I can see believers doing good things, agreed, from time to time. I have no reason to believe it isn't them as people who decided to do good things. Also I have seen religious claims and ideas poisoning debates and dividing communities over hypothetical unproven assertions in old books.

[jay1983]

Religions are not useful, they're damaging. They balkanize society into different moral communities, they make absurd claims about the world we live in, disregarding the knowledge about our world, they disrespect the human mind and nature. They poison decision making and hinder ethical progress.

 

They're not completely damaging, if people had no fate, I'm sorry faith, do you think the wars would stop, I doubt it, the religion thing is just a front. I'll move on to everyday life. People are very selfish, how do you get a somebody that only cares about himself to not not rob, steal, kill for their own gain? Convince them they'd be rewarded for good deeds and they'd go to hell if not. Believe it or not, it works.

[umirano]

They're not completely damaging, if people had no fate, I'm sorry faith, do you think the wars would stop, I doubt it, the religion thing is just a front.

Well, right now sunni ISIS is slaughtering Shiites BECAUSE they have the wrong belief. And for Christians it was ok to subdue millions of people in africa, asia and the americas because they didn't "know" jesus. So, yes, not having a crazy religious sense of mission would actually force them to come up with a real reason why it is ok to kill, torture, rape and burn people.

 

I'll move on to everyday life. People are very selfish, how do you get a somebody that only cares about himself to not not rob, steal, kill for their own gain?

So you'd go to kill and rob the minute you find out there is no god? You would not be afraid someone would come after you? You would not see that a civil, peaceful society provides more opportunities and security for everybody? Do you realize that there are many other reasons not to go beserk other than religion?

 

Convince them they'd be rewarded for good deeds and they'd go to hell if not. Believe it or not, it works.

 

It doesn't. Go to a prison. Hard to find more religious people in a given place. Catholic and evangelist priests don't agree with you, in large numbers. Or raping little boys is a good deed?

[jay1983]

Well, right now sunni ISIS is slaughtering Shiites BECAUSE they have the wrong belief. And for Christians it was ok to subdue millions of people in africa, asia and the americas because they didn't "know" jesus. So, yes, not having a crazy religious sense of mission would actually force them to come up with a real reason why it is ok to kill, torture, rape and burn people.

 

 

So you'd go to kill and rob the minute you find out there is no god? You would not be afraid someone would come after you? You would not see that a civil, peaceful society provides more opportunities and security for everybody? Do you realize that there are many other reasons not to go beserk other than religion?

 

What I'm trying to tell is those will find another reason to kill each other. Would I kill and rob the moment I found out there was god? Maybe not me, what about all the gang members and people in jail that found jesus and turned their life around?

[Michelle ma Belle]

And the more I try to believe the harder it is.

 

Forgiveness and repentance.

 

Forgiveness

Answer: Acts 13:38 declares, "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you."

 

Forgiveness of your sins is available if you will place your faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior. Ephesians 1:7 says, "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace." Jesus paid our debt for us, so we could be forgiven. All you have to do is ask God to forgive you through Jesus, believing that Jesus died to pay for your forgiveness – and He will forgive you! John 3:16-17 contains this wonderful message, "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him."

 

You can’t earn forgiveness from God. You can’t pay for your forgiveness from God. You can only receive it, by faith, through the grace and mercy of God.

 

Repentance

The words "repent" and "repentance" occur 56 times in the New Testament. It is similar in meaning to the word translated "convert" or "turn", which is also common. The main theme of the preaching of John the Baptist, who prepared the way for the coming of Jesus, was: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near" (Matthew 3:2). The first recorded words of the public ministry of Jesus are also "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near" (Matthew 4:17). Jesus declared that the purpose of his coming and ministry was to call "sinners to repentance" (Luke 5:32). When Jesus sent out his disciples to preach, we read that "they went out and preached that people should repent" (Mark 6:12).

 

After his resurrection from the dead, he declared that "repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations" (Luke 24:47). He declared that unless people repented they would perish, and in order to enforce the message, he repeated it (Luke 13:3,5).

 

Ask for forgiveness and repent for your sins and the Kingdom of heaven is yours.

[umirano]

What I'm trying to tell is those will find another reason to kill each other. Would I kill and rob the moment I found out there was god? Maybe not me, what about all the gang members and people in jail that found jesus and turned their life around?

 

I don't happen to think that they actually change because they suddenly found an imaginary friend. Most people tend to realize how wrong it is to use violence for material gain, esp. if they have to suffer actual physical consequences for it as opposed to imaginary punishments in an imaginary afterlife.

 

I give them more credit than that. Ofc they (subconsciously) coat it with some religious icing, because that is socially accepted in the US right now, and may even lead to more benefits, like early release or less stricter restrictions for the remainder of their punishment. I think they're just better people, and sometimes it takes the ugly experience of prison time to realize that.

[umirano]

What I'm trying to tell is those will find another reason to kill each other.

That's exactly what we should strive to find out, those other reasons, the real reasons why they kill. Because preaching to people obviously does not reduce crime. We should find out the actual reason why people kill and address that, instead of avoiding the real problem by blanket-excusing it with "well, we haven't preached enough, they didn't have enough jesus in their life". That's not a useful insight. Misery, through Poverty, through lack of work, through lack of education is the reason why people resort to violence for material gain. And some people are simply mentally ill and think it's alright to force sex or whatever else they want.

 

They need treatment and correction. But attributing these problems to a lack of belief in a fairytale story, dating 2000 years back, in a middle eastern desert will not do the slightest to solve our modern day problems.