My (not unique) story...

[shermanator]

Gently....

 

You hid your drinking for 9 years out 12 years of your marriage.

 

You and your wife are in marriage counselling and both your wife and marriage counsellor are unaware of the affair.

 

Do you see a pattern here, a pattern of your ability to manipulate by omission and lying.

 

We aren't in MC right now and yes, I see a pattern...

[shermanator]

But wasn't one of your strikes against your wife was because she was "zero fun"? Which would imply that you are having fun with the other woman and are looking for that.

 

Well, sure... I wouldn't have been drawn to the other woman if she was a miserable person, I imagine.

 

My wife's constant worrying/complaining about things (I think we had a pretty good life) contributed to my pulling away. I mentioned how much she worried and how I'd stopped having fun with her and she didn't really try anything to change that behavior. When my IC asked me what I loved about my wife, 'she's a good mom' is the best I could come up with right now.

[shermanator]

You are not alone in the universe in your decision not to tell. It might seem that way here in LS.

 

Anyone who tells you that there is ONLY ONE SOLUTION to your problem is delusional. There are dozens. Each with their own consequences. This is your life to decide how you are going to live it, to decide at what level you live 100% honestly and with the level of dignity that you want. Confession is for the church, and frankly, only one church that I know of. Your marriage is not a religion.

 

This is the gist of what both IC's have told me. If I feel like I need to confess, I should go to church and get it out of my system...

[Owl]

Of course the individual matters more than the R! the health of the individual should be paramount. If the M increases the individual's health and well being, then it is a good thing, and then he IC should support the M, but if there is any conflict between the health of the M and the health of the individual, of course the IC should focus on the individual. Not just because "that is what they are paid to do", but because that is the *right* thing to do. A R only has value if it enhances someone's life. If t detracts from it - in that, the health of the individual and the health of the M conflict, then the individual should not be in the M.

 

My experience clearly differs from yours.

 

Whether or not the marriage is beneficial to the individual...the advice most IC's give is entirely focused on the individual, and is OFTEN detrimental to the marriage...such as the situation the OP outlined above where they both counsel him NOT to tell.

 

It has nothing to do with whether or not the IC's view the marriage as beneficial or not.

 

The marriage is not ALWAYS the source of the problem, my friend. And given what the OP has described so far, I don't believe it is for him. HE is his own worse problem...and should focus on fixing things within himself while ALSO improving on his relationship as well.

 

He should seek counselors that support BOTH him AND his marriage.

[Owl]

This is the gist of what both IC's have told me. If I feel like I need to confess, I should go to church and get it out of my system...

 

See my comments about ICs.

 

But hey...do what you want. You can always find someone to agree with you and support you in whatever direction you want to go.

 

Personally...maintaining a relationship that only can survive by living a constant lie by omission...probably not worth the effort needed to maintain that lie indefinitely. If it can't handle the truth...then frankly, you should probably end it.

 

Why doesn't your wife deserve to make her own decisions in light of the full situation?

[Got it]

Well, sure... I wouldn't have been drawn to the other woman if she was a miserable person, I imagine.

 

My wife's constant worrying/complaining about things (I think we had a pretty good life) contributed to my pulling away. I mentioned how much she worried and how I'd stopped having fun with her and she didn't really try anything to change that behavior. When my IC asked me what I loved about my wife, 'she's a good mom' is the best I could come up with right now.

 

Do you not see how your alcoholism and hiding it for 9 out of 12 years and now the affair MAY have contributed to her constant worrying? There is a very good probable chance that one influenced the other, right?

 

What I am afraid of, you have spent little time learning to be self aware and healing from your toxic coping mechanism. So your relationship with your wife has never really been given a good chance to be transparent, authentic and "real". You haven't connected with yuorself and then shared it well enough to do that. Nor has your wife had time to heal and grow past your addiction behaviors to move beyond her coping mechanisms.

 

This is not saying her healing is determined by you but there "should" be some allowances made by you for her in this process.

 

I think IC is good for you but you really need to not make any major life decisions right now. I think there is a lot of digging that is needed to really heal yourself before you make any marital decisions. Has your wife ever really had a chance to be the person you think you want? Do you think your OW really stands a chance? You are still semi blind and bouncing against walls, how does any woman stand a chance to measure up to your expectations when you aren't sure still what makes you tick and uncovering your "whys".

 

Stop focusing externally right now and really about becoming the fullest person that you can be. You are not worthy of any woman right now. Not to who you can be.

[waterwoman]

Do you not see how your alcoholism and hiding it for 9 out of 12 years and now the affair MAY have contributed to her constant worrying? There is a very good probable chance that one influenced the other, right?

 

 

Yes! I have an H who had a very unstable childhood with enough unresolved issues to keep a therapist in clover! (in fact both his sisters have been in therapy for many many years). For a long time he was a 'good' partner - reliable, loving, dependable - as if he was setting himself apart from his past. Until his father died 18 yrs ago and he went off the deep end emotionally. He recovered to a certain extent but since then he has been unreliable, distant, undependable from time to time. I have had to be the 'parent' to the marriage as well as to our 3 kids. It's exhausing and miserable. I ended up chronically depressed - it was inherent in me but being married to the man I was exacerbated it a great deal. I am not the woman I was. I probably was 'zero fun' too. I certianly felt like zero fun. I was at times suicidal.

 

He had a brief affair. He has the decency not to blame me for it at all but I can see that life wasn't exactly roses for either of us beforehand. Since then we are painfully clawing our way back up the hill. He is looking at himself much harder these days and I am learning to stop being the go-to-guy for everything hard that has to be done.

 

Give her a chance to heal. Look at her and see whether perhaps you have contributed to her current condition. Take responsibility for the marriage you have and take care of the wife you have. if that means leaving her then so be it, but this state of limbo is heartless and inexcusable.

[April Moon]

So OP why are you posting here? I don't mean this to be rude at all. It seems like you are not going to tell you wife and you are not going to contact the OW even though she makes you happy. What advice are you looking for? Are you trying to get us to ease your guilt by telling you it's okay not to tell you wife? Or are you looking for permission from us that it's okay to leave your wife for the other woman? I think you have received many responses but you still plan on sticking to you original plan. Are you looking for more advice? Or are you looking for a place to vent?

[shermanator]

So OP why are you posting here? I don't mean this to be rude at all. It seems like you are not going to tell you wife and you are not going to contact the OW even though she makes you happy. What advice are you looking for? Are you trying to get us to ease your guilt by telling you it's okay not to tell you wife? Or are you looking for permission from us that it's okay to leave your wife for the other woman? I think you have received many responses but you still plan on sticking to you original plan. Are you looking for more advice? Or are you looking for a place to vent?

 

I don't have a plan... I was looking for advice/feedback/suggestions/venting, etc.

 

I'm trying to avoid the OW and remain NC, day to day. I'm trying to work on myself, day to day, and do what my IC tells me.

 

I'm in a state of limbo... I really thought that you got married and that was it. You had a partner for life, so my actions and my emotions are throwing me.

 

On paper, nothing about the OW makes sense. My wife and I have a decent life - nice house, good kids, make enough money, etc... but something in me is broken to the point that I sought out someone else and was drawn to her to the point that I can't stop thinking about being with her.

[Owl]

Here's a thought.

 

Marriage counseling.

 

In addition to both you and your wife attending IC. I'd personally suggest at least one session for you with the MC...without your wife...so that you can tell the MC and let them help you sort out a plan to rebuild your marriage from there. Give your wife a chance to attend a one on one with the MC as well...she may have things to talk about with the MC without you present as well that could impact your marriage.

 

THAT seems like a decent compromise and a way to move forward.

 

Thoughts?

[fellini]

Experience or not, this is just untrue.

 

The IC therapist treats the WHOLE CLIENT, not just the "body" or "mind".

The whole client. This includes his role in his own marriage, just as much as his role within his family ties, his friendships, his commitments, his desires, his fears... the whole client. I have no idea why you think the marriage does not enter into an IC.

 

Also I have no idea why you distinguish between IC and MC. Some MC do IC in order to treat the whole person outside the influence of the spouse, where discussions can be more fruitful and private. In my case the MC and the IC for each of us was the same person. I stopped MC precisely because my WS lied several times in MC in front of me. She clearly wasn't ready for MC, so I told her to go IC because she clearly wasn't ready to talk the truth to me, she might as well see if she could with IC, even though it was the SAME PERSON she was lying to, it was precisely my being there that was causing the problem of moving forward.

 

Also an IC is usually married. They know what a relationship is.

 

Also an IC is not treating the Spouse. Everything that comes out of the mouth of the client even if it his assessment of his spouse, is taken as a form of communication about the client, it is not misconstrued to be some kind of entry for the spouse and his/her pain. The IC does not treat the BS through dialogue with the WS. The IC is trying to ensure the best for the IC, and if that means working through getting him to divorce, leave, explore his needs, so be it.

 

 

My experience clearly differs from yours.

 

Whether or not the marriage is beneficial to the individual...the advice most IC's give is entirely focused on the individual, and is OFTEN detrimental to the marriage...such as the situation the OP outlined above where they both counsel him NOT to tell.

 

It has nothing to do with whether or not the IC's view the marriage as beneficial or not.

 

The marriage is not ALWAYS the source of the problem, my friend. And given what the OP has described so far, I don't believe it is for him. HE is his own worse problem...and should focus on fixing things within himself while ALSO improving on his relationship as well.

 

He should seek counselors that support BOTH him AND his marriage.

Edited June 20, 2014 by fellini

[carhill]

On paper, nothing about the OW makes sense. My wife and I have a decent life - nice house, good kids, make enough money, etc... but something in me is broken to the point that I sought out someone else and was drawn to her to the point that I can't stop thinking about being with her.

 

That's a pretty focused issue to task your IC on. How does your W feel about MC? Apologies if already asked and answered. Others have mentioned that IC is 'individual'; yep, pretty much. You direct the process and the IC works your tasking.

 

Throw the above quoted phrase at the IC and say 'I want to work this' and see what happens. You say you want to continue NC, one day at a time. Ask the IC for tools to assist you.

 

If you want to repair your M, a MC will take the M on as a client. You and your wife will work with the MC to benefit the client, which is the M.

[Owl]

Experience or not, this is just untrue.

 

The IC therapist treats the WHOLE CLIENT, not just the "body" or "mind".

The whole client. This includes his role in his own marriage, just as much as his role within his family ties, his friendships, his commitments, his desires, his fears... the whole client. I have no idea why you think the marriage does not enter into an IC.

 

Also I have no idea why you distinguish between IC and MC. Some MC do IC in order to treat the whole person outside the influence of the spouse, where discussions can be more fruitful and private. In my case the MC and the IC for each of us was the same person. I stopped MC precisely because my WS lied several times in MC in front of me. She clearly wasn't ready for MC, so I told her to go IC because she clearly wasn't ready to talk the truth to me, she might as well see if she could with IC, even though it was the SAME PERSON she was lying to, it was precisely my being there that was causing the problem of moving forward.

 

Also an IC is usually married. They know what a relationship is.

 

Also an IC is not treating the Spouse. Everything that comes out of the mouth of the client even if it his assessment of his spouse, is taken as a form of communication about the client, it is not misconstrued to be some kind of entry for the spouse and his/her pain. The IC does not treat the BS through dialogue with the WS. The IC is trying to ensure the best for the IC, and if that means working through getting him to divorce, leave, explore his needs, so be it.

 

Looks like one more area you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on.

 

Stick around for another 4-5 years, read a few hundred more stories where you see advice given that's completely incompatible for marital recovery. Go through 3 sets of IC/MCs trying to find the ones that work best for both individual and marital recovery after infidelity.

 

Who knows...maybe your viewpoint might change.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Owl

[Snowflower]

That's a pretty focused issue to task your IC on. How does your W feel about MC? Apologies if already asked and answered. Others have mentioned that IC is 'individual'; yep, pretty much. You direct the process and the IC works your tasking.

 

Throw the above quoted phrase at the IC and say 'I want to work this' and see what happens. You say you want to continue NC, one day at a time. Ask the IC for tools to assist you.

 

If you want to repair your M, a MC will take the M on as a client. You and your wife will work with the MC to benefit the client, which is the M.

 

Well said and more succint than I could have phrased it.

 

To shermanator and the other who have been discussing the merits of IC:

 

If you present your situation to your IC as if you are not sure about your marriage, you're thinking about OW, etc, then that is what the IC is going to go with. In other words, they kind of follow your lead.

 

OTOH, if you went into your IC sessions saying that you had screwed up in your marriage, you want to save your marriage, etc. Then the IC will go from there and will try to guide you to determine what you should do about saving your marriage.

 

Thing is, from what you write here shermanator, you don't seem like you want to save your marriage. You know you "should" but you don't "want" to for reasons you've stated.

 

So, it follows that your IC is going to go from that point with you and explore with you the thought of leaving your marriage because that is what you indicate you want to do.

 

Make sense.

 

There is a lot going on in this thread, Shermanator and fwiw, I'm glad you've stuck it out with us here.

[April Moon]

I don't have a plan... I was looking for advice/feedback/suggestions/venting, etc.

 

I'm trying to avoid the OW and remain NC, day to day. I'm trying to work on myself, day to day, and do what my IC tells me.

 

I'm in a state of limbo... I really thought that you got married and that was it. You had a partner for life, so my actions and my emotions are throwing me.

 

On paper, nothing about the OW makes sense. My wife and I have a decent life - nice house, good kids, make enough money, etc... but something in me is broken to the point that I sought out someone else and was drawn to her to the point that I can't stop thinking about being with her.

 

Mostly everyone is giving you the same advice because we believe it will help your marriage. You have a decsion to make. You can choose to be with OW, you can be honest with your W and try to fix the marriage, or you can stay quiet and try to work on your marriage. If you choose the last, I doubt much will change. I say this because it is hard to fix a marriage. There is no easy route and no shortcuts. If you are unwilling to tell her the truth, then to me, you are unwilling to give your marriage a fair shot. But if you don't want to fix you marriage and be with the OW, then do that. But I think you are being unfair to your family by being in this limbo. Because it is not just your wife that you are affecting, you are affecting your kids too.

[Mr. Lucky]

but something in me is broken to the point that I sought out someone else and was drawn to her

This why the repeated suggestions for MC make sense. If you and your W haven't slept together for 5 months and the two of you aren't actively engaged in trying to fix that disconnect, it's your marriage that's broken. And if your wife is in denial that the issue exists, she owns her part of the problem.

 

I like to think that, under similar circumstances, I wouldn't do what you have done. But I'll have to admit the thought would cross my mind...

 

Mr. Lucky

[fellini]

On paper, nothing about the OW makes sense. My wife and I have a decent life - nice house, good kids, make enough money, etc... but something in me is broken to the point that I sought out someone else and was drawn to her to the point that I can't stop thinking about being with her.

 

For months I kept asking my WW why she didn't seem happy, she had everything she wanted. She wanted a wedding, I didn't but no big deal, I truly felt she was the woman I was going to spend with the rest of my life, so Ill give her that. She wanted to buy an apartment. I didn't, rental market was better, but hey, if it's what she wants, Ill give her the home. So we settled on one that cost in mortgage more or less what we were paying in rent. She wanted a child with me. I didn't, I already had a grown child across the Atlantic and the thought that I would have a child in two places, and not be able to stay in either, plus the costs, she seemd to be a workaholic and I feared having everything dumped on me while she worked etc. etc.

 

But in the end, I agreed and we have a fantastic daughter whom I love more than life itself.

 

Then she cheated on me. Short version: She said she hated married life, hated coming home to the house, of course she loved her daughter but the excitement of newborn had worn off years ago, and she was back submerging herself in her exciting career as a Uni professor. Or so I thought, no she spent about 18 months developing a relationship with a single highly respected and outgoing guy. The very thing she had with me before she pushed for her happy ever after marriage.

 

Just like the Talking Heads song I found myself asking...

 

And you may find yourself in another part of the world

And you may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile

And you may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife

And you may ask yourself

Well...How did I get here?

 

and she got to ...

And you may ask yourself

What is that beautiful house?

And you may ask yourself

Where does that highway go to?

And you may ask yourself

Am I right?...Am I wrong?

And you may say to yourself yourself

My God!...What have I done?!

 

And now, I am asking the same. What have I done.

[Owl]

Looks like one more area you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on.

 

Stick around for another 4-5 years, read a few hundred more stories where you see advice given that's completely incompatible for marital recovery. Go through 3 sets of IC/MCs trying to find the ones that work best for both individual and marital recovery after infidelity.

 

Who knows...maybe your viewpoint might change.

 

In fact...my wife's first IC flat out TOLD her this...that she was there to provide support and therapy for my WIFE...the maintaining or improving the marriage wasn't her concern or interest. If she wanted support for that, she needed to seek out an MC seperately.

 

So again...not only has this happened in my own personal experience, but I've seen the same thing repeated many, many times here on this and other forums.

[Owl]

In my case the MC and the IC for each of us was the same person. I stopped MC precisely because my WS lied several times in MC in front of me. She clearly wasn't ready for MC, so I told her to go IC because she clearly wasn't ready to talk the truth to me, she might as well see if she could with IC, even though it was the SAME PERSON she was lying to, it was precisely my being there that was causing the problem of moving forward.

 

 

My wife and I both started out with seperate IC's when neither of us were sure that we were going to recover or not. MY purpose in seeking out IC was to help me sort out and assess what I wanted to do, and once I decided I did want to reconcile, to help me figure out how to do so. Her IC was to help her figure out what led her to where she was at, and what she wanted to do next.

 

Our first MC was at the same facility that her IC was...and my wife was infuriated (rightfully so) when she found that her IC and our MC were cross-talking.

 

Around that time, we also decided to reconcile. I suggested we use my IC as our MC...and he STRONGLY cautioned me that acting as our MC would mean he couldn't continue as my IC, as it could represent a conflict of interest.

 

So...I discontinued IC, we dropped our original MC, and we went to my original IC as our MC...and it was one of the best decisions I could have made.

 

I'm not sure how your counselor avoided that conflict of interest while being IC for both of you, and MC to both of you as well.

[fellini]

Because from day one I agreed to try to recover and reconcile. And she had it in her mind to stay in the happily ever after marriage and not pursue the exciting single wild unfettered life with the AP.

 

So the C that we first spoke with as a couple, said he would work on her issues (which included not owning her responsibilities, and recovering her dignity) and for me to help me recover, to find my "spark" as he called it, because he could see I was pretty much dead inside. His followed O'Hanlon's Solution Based Therapy which focusses on the present-future not the past-future typical of most post infidelity IC/MC and nothing to do with "Trauma of Betrayal" approaches.

 

The problem was not basically in our marriage. Every marriage can improve. But if we were going to need MC it was going to be about communication, connection, and conflict resolution, not a space to discuss the affair.

 

So to speak about the problem faced with OP, his choice of IC is not for anyone here to judge. All therapists operate from their own selected methods. I cannot see how anyone here can just talk about IC like it was some kind of homogenous and clearly formed field. If you go to a Trauma of Betrayal specialist you are going to get one line of work, but if you go to someone who has started to address new methods like those of Michelle Scheinkman, O'Hanlon, or Esther Perel, then you are going to get a completely different approach.

 

Of course someone treated on the Trauma approach is going, like katie above, to say that everyone else is crap. But it's not about crap detection or right or wrong, its about the best fit for the couple or individual.

 

 

 

 

My wife and I both started out with seperate IC's when neither of us were sure that we were going to recover or not. MY purpose in seeking out IC was to help me sort out and assess what I wanted to do, and once I decided I did want to reconcile, to help me figure out how to do so. Her IC was to help her figure out what led her to where she was at, and what she wanted to do next.

 

Our first MC was at the same facility that her IC was...and my wife was infuriated (rightfully so) when she found that her IC and our MC were cross-talking.

 

Around that time, we also decided to reconcile. I suggested we use my IC as our MC...and he STRONGLY cautioned me that acting as our MC would mean he couldn't continue as my IC, as it could represent a conflict of interest.

 

So...I discontinued IC, we dropped our original MC, and we went to my original IC as our MC...and it was one of the best decisions I could have made.

 

I'm not sure how your counselor avoided that conflict of interest while being IC for both of you, and MC to both of you as well.

Edited June 20, 2014 by fellini

[shermanator]

See my comments about ICs.

 

But hey...do what you want. You can always find someone to agree with you and support you in whatever direction you want to go.

 

So can you, right? You can find someone to support your perspective and agree with you, too, right?

 

I've gone to two different ICs... the first was very "do whatever you want... you only have one life." The one I'm seeing now is more interested in seeing me work on myself and the marriage to get to the bottom of whatever is missing in me.

[shermanator]

Here's a thought.

 

Marriage counseling.

 

In addition to both you and your wife attending IC. I'd personally suggest at least one session for you with the MC...without your wife...so that you can tell the MC and let them help you sort out a plan to rebuild your marriage from there. Give your wife a chance to attend a one on one with the MC as well...she may have things to talk about with the MC without you present as well that could impact your marriage.

 

THAT seems like a decent compromise and a way to move forward.

 

Thoughts?

 

We went to a couple sessions and I told the MC, in the interest of full disclosure, that I was having an EA (it wasn't physical yet). After I told him that, he said he couldn't work with us anymore... and we haven't gone to another MC yet. He suggested that I continue my IC and that my wife start IC... so that's where we are at right now.

[shermanator]

Well said and more succint than I could have phrased it.

 

To shermanator and the other who have been discussing the merits of IC:

 

If you present your situation to your IC as if you are not sure about your marriage, you're thinking about OW, etc, then that is what the IC is going to go with. In other words, they kind of follow your lead.

 

OTOH, if you went into your IC sessions saying that you had screwed up in your marriage, you want to save your marriage, etc. Then the IC will go from there and will try to guide you to determine what you should do about saving your marriage.

 

Thing is, from what you write here shermanator, you don't seem like you want to save your marriage. You know you "should" but you don't "want" to for reasons you've stated.

 

So, it follows that your IC is going to go from that point with you and explore with you the thought of leaving your marriage because that is what you indicate you want to do.

 

Make sense.

 

There is a lot going on in this thread, Shermanator and fwiw, I'm glad you've stuck it out with us here.

 

This post makes a lot of sense... that's why going NC is the right thing to do. I need to step back and look at myself and the M and see if it's worth saving, without being in the haze of the new relationship and OW. The OW has said as much, too...

 

For continuity, the kids, financially, I understand that I 'should' stay together... my wife and I have a life together.

 

When I asked my original IC how I could justify walking away from my family and the memories and our life, she said "those memories don't go away... you just make new ones with the new people and experiences you have for the rest of your life."

[2sunny]

What tasks has your IC suggested to you - and which ones are you putting into action?

 

Which ideas have you dismissed?

 

And have you been honest with your IC about the extent of your affair?

[April Moon]

To me it seems like you don't want to stay in your marriage. You keep saying it's what you should do. At this point, do what you want. Why stay in a marriage that neither one of you are happy with? The only thing you should do is tell your wife so that this limbo can stop.