My (not unique) story...

[Mr. Lucky]

She told me that she's not sure how she feels anymore. Because of how our relationship started (me being married and her engaging with a married man), she's not sure she trusts the feelings that we had for each other. She doesn't want to be the reason I leave and says I still don't know what I want... she's also not sure she'll get over the guilt she feels about what we did.

And that, my friend, is called karma.

 

But you're still leaving your marriage regardless, right ? If you're unhappy enough to leave for an OW, I'd assume the unhappiness is still in place even if the OW isn't...

 

Mr. Lucky

[shermanator]

[quote=CarrieT;5799564 Because - having been an OW - I can tell you that you should NEVER leave a marriage for another relationship. One should leave a marriage for one's self and never for another person.

 

If you are sincere that you do not believe your marriage is going to survive, then you should leave your marriage for YOU, build on your own self-worth and reasons for existence.

 

Honestly, I believe you had idealized this OW and a future together with her was all daisies and bunnies and doughnuts, but when/if it happened, you might very well have found yourself in a situation that you did not and could not anticipate and you ultimately would not have been happy: BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT HAPPY WITH YOURSELF.

 

I'm sort of glad the OW back-pedaled and is unsure. You really need to come clean with your wife on your feelings and consider individual counseling to figure out what you really want.

 

The OW went thru her own divorce about 3 years ago and quickly got into another relationship... the relationship ended up fizzling out and she's, understandably, worried the same thing will happen to us. She doesn't want me to leave, start a relationship with her, then realize what a horrible mistake I've made.

 

She has said, over and over, that I can't leave my W for her. I have to do it for myself...

 

I'm sure I've idealized the OW and have a semi-unrealistic vision of how life would look with her, but I really tried not to rush and take a step back. Like I said in the beginning of the thread, I was kind of bummering through life and my marriage...

 

The feelings and relationship and admiration I had with the OW were so intense, I'm pretty sure that, if I'd never met her, I wouldn't have started to examine my own marriage in counseling and realized that our relationship has some issues.

[shermanator]

And that, my friend, is called karma.

 

But you're still leaving your marriage regardless, right ? If you're unhappy enough to leave for an OW, I'd assume the unhappiness is still in place even if the OW isn't...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Oh, the unhappiness is still here... honestly, if I won the lottery tomorrow and could make sure the kids would stay in our house, I'd leave and get my own place. I can't imagine uprooting my kids, though. They are in a pretty good spot where we live. It's the most vexing thing about this entire situation.

 

I know using the kids is a cop out, excuse, etc...

Edited July 13, 2014 by shermanator

[beach]

Every M has there own set of issues.

 

Now, IF/ since you are staying married (by default) what do you plan to DO to add positivity to your marriage?

[Owl]

I just wanna know that you're going to use this next week to inform your wife, contact an attorney, and move out.

[sunburned]

Respectfully, it sounds like your OW is exhibiting more common sense than you and it was probably the period of NC that helped her. I see two possibilities:

 

1. She means what she says, especially having gone through a D herself. She's seen the movie! She's confused, she realizes you're a cheater and perhaps fears becoming a BS herself. In that case, give her her time, date legitimately and show her what a great guy you are. But do NOT ask her to iron out a plan with you ahead of time of how to deal with YOUR kids, live on a reduced (by divorce) income, determine a place to live, etc. Those are things you have to face alone. Then, when the D is final, you TELL her how it all shook out and see if she is willing to start over again within those parameters.

 

OR

 

2. Is it possible she said what she said because she realizes she really is DONE. Maybe she's trying to let you known gently because she doesn't want to take up with a known cheater.

 

I really think you need to return to NC and give yourself more time to get out of the affair fog. Some of us are just slow learners and it takes a long time and many, many months of sun to burn off that fog. I was there. I had some of these same desperate, obsessive feelings. They're gone now. What a mistake I made. What a bigger one I could have made!!

[shermanator]

Respectfully, it sounds like your OW is exhibiting more common sense than you and it was probably the period of NC that helped her. I see two possibilities:

 

1. She means what she says, especially having gone through a D herself. She's seen the movie! She's confused, she realizes you're a cheater and perhaps fears becoming a BS herself. In that case, give her her time, date legitimately and show her what a great guy you are. But do NOT ask her to iron out a plan with you ahead of time of how to deal with YOUR kids, live on a reduced (by divorce) income, determine a place to live, etc. Those are things you have to face alone. Then, when the D is final, you TELL her how it all shook out and see if she is willing to start over again within those parameters.

 

OR

 

2. Is it possible she said what she said because she realizes she really is DONE. Maybe she's trying to let you known gently because she doesn't want to take up with a known cheater.

 

I really think you need to return to NC and give yourself more time to get out of the affair fog. Some of us are just slow learners and it takes a long time and many, many months of sun to burn off that fog. I was there. I had some of these same desperate, obsessive feelings. They're gone now. What a mistake I made. What a bigger one I could have made!!

 

Good advice, I think... during the A, we talked about trust issues that we might have in an 'official' relationship. Me being a cheater and her taking up with a married man.

 

And I wasn't really asking her to iron out a plan... it was more me talking through everything that I'd need to do and make sure she was okay with it. Just making sure she was fully aware of my entire situation, but I wasn't asking for help, financial or otherwise... maybe some emotional support, I suppose.

[beach]

Ok - emotional support, since you've flip flopped in the past few days - how can we support you now that you decided to stay married?

[Mr. Lucky]

Good advice, I think... during the A, we talked about trust issues that we might have in an 'official' relationship. Me being a cheater and her taking up with a married man.

This how far down the rabbit hole you've gone. She looks down her nose at you because you're a cheater ? Ironic in that unlike your wife, she's been fully informed every step of the way.

 

Reminds me of the angst you see in some of the other forums when the WS is unfaithful to the "main" AP. I guess a cheater isn't supposed to cheat on the main cheatee...

 

Mr. Lucky

[shermanator]

This how far down the rabbit hole you've gone. She looks down her nose at you because you're a cheater ? Ironic in that unlike your wife, she's been fully informed every step of the way.

 

Reminds me of the angst you see in some of the other forums when the WS is unfaithful to the "main" AP. I guess a cheater isn't supposed to cheat on the main cheatee...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Not really what I was trying to say... I would be surprised, based on what we have said to each other, if she all of a sudden felt like she couldn't trust me. I've been honest with her about everything.

[beach]

Not really what I was trying to say... I would be surprised, based on what we have said to each other, if she all of a sudden felt like she couldn't trust me. I've been honest with her about everything.

 

Why are you still focused on posting about your OW - when you said now you intend to work on your M?

[cocorico]

Were there kids involved? Did your current H go right from his marriage to a relationship with you, or did he take some time to be alone first?

 

I know things have moved on, but to answer your questions - yes, there were kids involved. Mine were grown, but his were still at home (teens when he left).

 

He didn't "go right from his M to a R with me" - we already had a R, and we didn't break that. We continued our R, although we did not immediately live together when he moved out. He and his kids settled into a new place, new routines, etc and I tied up loose ends on my side, and then about 6 months later I moved in with them. The D was final about 6 months after than.

 

He had started IC a while before and continued during the D.

[CarrieT]

Not really what I was trying to say... I would be surprised, based on what we have said to each other, if she all of a sudden felt like she couldn't trust me. I've been honest with her about everything.

WRONG!

 

She knows that you have been capable of lying and cheating on the one person to whom you made a vow of fidelity: Your Wife.

 

The OW knows that you can lie and manipulate to get what you want. She has no idea what you might be keeping from her.

 

If she is on boards like this one, she may have read other stories of being an Other Woman and how much cheaters weave stories to maintain the lies and affairs. She may have joined a similar site and seen others stories of how their MM strung them along to keep them in their lives. Or kept promising them they were going to leave their wives.

 

The bottom line is that you have not been honest with her about everything. Because you haven't been honest with YOURSELF about everything. Come clean with your wife and laid bare this entire situation before trying to reclaim the OW. Only then - after all the chips have fallen - can you reclaim some self-dignity.

[notserene]

Not really what I was trying to say... I would be surprised, based on what we have said to each other, if she all of a sudden felt like she couldn't trust me. I've been honest with her about everything.

 

Your relationship started out based on a really big lie to someone who trusted you implicitly. And you're surprised that OW is skeptical about your trustworthiness? I'm impressed that she is so clear headed.

[shermanator]

WRONG!

 

She knows that you have been capable of lying and cheating on the one person to whom you made a vow of fidelity: Your Wife.

 

The OW knows that you can lie and manipulate to get what you want. She has no idea what you might be keeping from her.

 

If she is on boards like this one, she may have read other stories of being an Other Woman and how much cheaters weave stories to maintain the lies and affairs. She may have joined a similar site and seen others stories of how their MM strung them along to keep them in their lives. Or kept promising them they were going to leave their wives.

 

The bottom line is that you have not been honest with her about everything. Because you haven't been honest with YOURSELF about everything. Come clean with your wife and laid bare this entire situation before trying to reclaim the OW. Only then - after all the chips have fallen - can you reclaim some self-dignity.

 

With respect, I've never made any promises to the OW about leaving and I really have told her everything - straight up, no games. When we first started seeing each other, I didn't play any games. She knew everything about me.

 

I think she wants me to leave my M and make a commitment to being alone, FOR ME, before she agrees to re-start our relationship. She has said, repeatedly, that she doesn't want to be the reason I leave... I have to do it, FOR ME, not for her.

[CarrieT]

With respect, I've never made any promises to the OW about leaving and I really have told her everything - straight up, no games. When we first started seeing each other, I didn't play any games. She knew everything about me.

With respect, re-read what I wrote.

 

Now that she has spent time away from you, she may have done some investigation into the actions of cheaters and questioning how honest you really were.

 

I know that YOU believe you were honest with her, but I'm suggesting that she truly doesn't know if you were playing games or not.

 

It is not about any promises you made, it is those stories that so many married men tell their AP about how little sex they are getting, how their wives don't understand them, etc...

 

There must have been some scenario you ascribed about your marriage that made it seem troubled to her and you probably believed it as well. But you even said: " I'm pretty sure that, if I'd never met her, I wouldn't have started to examine my own marriage in counseling and realized that our relationship has some issues."

 

It is a matter of perspective and how that perspective changes with the existence of the AP. Does that make sense? You painted a picture of discontent to the OW that didn't necessarily exist until she was within your orbit. That, in-and-of-itself is a form of deception!

 

Had you never met the OW, would you have examined your relationship and considered a divorce? That is why the OW - and many of us - say that you have to leave the marriage FOR YOU, if that is what you want; and probably be on your own for a while, before you will be capable of establishing another positive and successful relationship.

Edited July 15, 2014 by CarrieT

[shermanator]

With respect, re-read what I wrote.

 

Now that she has spent time away from you, she may have done some investigation into the actions of cheaters and questioning how honest you really were.

 

I know that YOU believe you were honest with her, but I'm suggesting that she truly doesn't know if you were playing games or not.

 

It is not about any promises you made, it is those stories that so many married men tell their AP about how little sex they are getting, how their wives don't understand them, etc...

 

There must have been some scenario you ascribed about your marriage that made it seem troubled to her and you probably believed it as well. But you even said: " I'm pretty sure that, if I'd never met her, I wouldn't have started to examine my own marriage in counseling and realized that our relationship has some issues."

 

It is a matter of perspective and how that perspective changes with the existence of the AP. Does that make sense? You painted a picture of discontent to the OW that didn't necessarily exist until she was within your orbit. That, in-and-of-itself is a form of deception!

 

Had you never met the OW, would you have examined your relationship and considered a divorce? That is why the OW - and many of us - say that you have to leave the marriage FOR YOU, if that is what you want; and probably be on your own for a while, before you will be capable of establishing another positive and successful relationship.

 

I told the OW that our relationship made me realize certain things were missing in my marriage. I told the OW (at the beginning of our EA) that I thought my marriage was decent (except for my lying about drinking, which led to intimacy issues)... my wife and I don't really argue, we agree on money, we share responsibilities with the kids, etc, but in talking thru things with the OW, I realized how my conflict avoidance led to resentment.

 

So, no, if I hadn't met the OW, I don't think I would have done as much reflection on the marriage... she opened up with me about her failed marriage and how hard it was for her. She's done nothing to demean my W...

 

And once I fell for the OW, my sex life dried up at home completely... I told the OW that, as well. In IC, my therapist has said that I'm a one woman man. My relationship with the OW prevented me from feeling those emotions for my wife and I had no desire to be with my W, physcially, because of how I felt for the OW. I couldn't fake it.

[CarrieT]

So what is your next step?

[BrokenPrincess]

It doesn't sound to me like your OW is rejecting or back pedaling...she's just protecting her heart & probably very cautiously optimistic that you'll follow through. And that you're it going to turn around & blame her for splitting up your kids & finances.

 

So far you've only told OW that you choose her but talk is cheap and LS has shown me that most MM are cowards at heart who won't change the status quo until W kicks them out. So, are you ready to make this a reality and tell your W you want a divorce?

[2sunny]

With respect, I've never made any promises to the OW about leaving and I really have told her everything - straight up, no games. When we first started seeing each other, I didn't play any games. She knew everything about me.

 

I think she wants me to leave my M and make a commitment to being alone, FOR ME, before she agrees to re-start our relationship. She has said, repeatedly, that she doesn't want to be the reason I leave... I have to do it, FOR ME, not for her.

 

It may be a good plan being on your own to be happy yourself.

[cocorico]

With respect, I've never made any promises to the OW about leaving and I really have told her everything - straight up, no games. When we first started seeing each other, I didn't play any games. She knew everything about me.

 

I think she wants me to leave my M and make a commitment to being alone, FOR ME, before she agrees to re-start our relationship. She has said, repeatedly, that she doesn't want to be the reason I leave... I have to do it, FOR ME, not for her.

 

This is sensible. You cannot leave for,someone else. It sets up too many power imbalances in the R. My H left his xW *because of* me! but he did not leave *for* me, he left for himself (and for his kids).

 

On the "trust issues" question - I never had any reason to distrust my H, during the A or since. I'm not someone who trusts easily; I always verify things from multiple sources before I believe them. I know he was completely honest with me, and needed to be, to provide respite from his M where he could not be honest and had to keep sides of himself hidden because they were not approved of. So I do not buy the whole "but your A is founded on dishonesty" myth some perpetuate - no, his previous M may have been founded on dishonesty or certainly characterised by it before and during the A, but our R never was. I knew that, came to trust him because there was 100% alignment between what he said, what I observed, and what I could verify - and because he has been consistently authentic with me. I still trust him completely, years on in our subsequent M, because he continues to show himself to be completely honest with me.

 

At the same time, I understand what your OW may have meant, Sherman, by her concern about trust issues given you were an MM and she an OW. That concerns, for her, the nature of the R being an A, that want counter to her morality, that she - and you too - allowed yourselves to be tempted out of your value system into something you don't approve of morally, which must therefore be tainted - and your judgment must therefore be held in question on issues around it. I know my H had to address issues like this in IC - having been a model, perfect H for 30 years, why did he allow his values to slip and engage I actions he felt were wrong? What in himself allowed him to do that? IC helped him explore and resolve that, and he and I discussing and exploring these things and sharing "meaning making" helped us underscore our trust too. You might want to look at Esther Perel's paper "after the storm" about trust in post-A Rs (she's dealing specifically about reconciling Ms after an A, but it applies to post-A Rs of fAPs too). I have posted the link elsewhere, but it's on her website.

[Oberfeldwebel]

I still go back to my original post, which you really have never answered. If the relationship with the other woman is so perfect and so wonderful, then why are you hiding it and sneaking around behind your wife's back? If it is so great, confess to wife and let her go find someone who loves her.

 

Don't bother to tell me you love your wife. You my care for her as an individual and respect her as a mother, but you don't love her as a husband should love his wife. You say you don't want to hurt her. If you leave, she is going to be hurt, there is no way around this. She is going to blame herself for the problems in the marriage, when the truth is it has nothing to do with her and it is you. So all you are really doing is covering your own a$$, so you aren't the bad guy. The OW is right about one thing, finish one relationship before you start another one. Regardless if you stay or go you still need to start being honest with your wife. Time to put on your big boy pants and do the right thing.

[spookysonata]

I told the OW that our relationship made me realize certain things were missing in my marriage. I told the OW (at the beginning of our EA) that I thought my marriage was decent (except for my lying about drinking, which led to intimacy issues)... my wife and I don't really argue, we agree on money, we share responsibilities with the kids, etc, but in talking thru things with the OW, I realized how my conflict avoidance led to resentment.

 

So, no, if I hadn't met the OW, I don't think I would have done as much reflection on the marriage... she opened up with me about her failed marriage and how hard it was for her. She's done nothing to demean my W...

 

And once I fell for the OW, my sex life dried up at home completely... I told the OW that, as well. In IC, my therapist has said that I'm a one woman man. My relationship with the OW prevented me from feeling those emotions for my wife and I had no desire to be with my W, physcially, because of how I felt for the OW. I couldn't fake it.

 

Do you realize that all of the problems you're describing here are a direct result of your behavior?

 

You choice isn't between one woman or the other; it's between whether to be a man of integrity or not.

[Owl]

I'm curious what the status of you ending your marriage is at this point?

 

Told the wife? Contacted a lawyer? Started seperation proceedings? Moved out?

[shermanator]

This is sensible. You cannot leave for,someone else. It sets up too many power imbalances in the R. My H left his xW *because of* me! but he did not leave *for* me, he left for himself (and for his kids).

 

On the "trust issues" question - I never had any reason to distrust my H, during the A or since. I'm not someone who trusts easily; I always verify things from multiple sources before I believe them. I know he was completely honest with me, and needed to be, to provide respite from his M where he could not be honest and had to keep sides of himself hidden because they were not approved of. So I do not buy the whole "but your A is founded on dishonesty" myth some perpetuate - no, his previous M may have been founded on dishonesty or certainly characterised by it before and during the A, but our R never was. I knew that, came to trust him because there was 100% alignment between what he said, what I observed, and what I could verify - and because he has been consistently authentic with me. I still trust him completely, years on in our subsequent M, because he continues to show himself to be completely honest with me.

 

This is what I've said in IC, too... I don't think I'd leave 'for' the OW, but certainly in some part 'because' of her. I'd ultimately do it, for me, but because of the relationship that we started.