My (not unique) story...

[cocorico]

I think my kids could handle the transition, but, if there's no OW, wouldn't it be better if I didn't split?

 

This suggests to me that you're no nearer deciding and making your decision the right one. Essentially, it seems to me you've outsourced the decision about who you want to be to someone else (your OW). You told her you wanted to be with her - that *seemed* like a decision, but your response to her response shows that it wasn't a decision but merely a testing of the waters. If it was a real decision, you'd have gone through with it irrespective - you'd have left, then told her, and taken her response in your stride.

 

So, your "decision" is a non-decision. You haven't decided to leave your M, and you haven't decided to stay - you're just treading water. You ask, wouldn't it be better if you stayed (since the OW didn't bite your arm off when you told her you wanted to be with her). I'd say no - not unless you really want to be there and are choosing to be there. It's not fair to anyone - you all get stuck with a suboptimal situation because no one is unhappy enough to pull the plug. The note your wife gave you suggests she knows something is wrong, but she can't put her finger on it.

 

Sherman, are you happy to be a passenger in your own life? I suspect happiness will elude you until you exercise some agency and *make* your life the one you want.

[FredJones80]

Ah, torn between something that will require work and something that will easy but hurt others... I'm glad I'm not in this tangled web.

 

Limbo, Limbo... but for how long? Getting out of this state of Limbo won't be easy, but it won't get easier the longer you leave it. Unless you do something you're going to be in this Limbo state forever until someone else decides for you, either your wife pulls the plug because she is sick of your general mood or this OW will move on because she can't wait any longer.

 

Ask yourself, if you leave for the OW and it doesn't work out, will you be happy to be on your own or will you look back at your W and family and want them back?

 

To me it seems the difficulty in your decision is your infatuation with the OW. If your marriage was so bad BEFORE this OW, why hadn't you communicated your displeasure with your W so then you could both rejuvenate the marriage?

 

I could be wrong but if you take up with the OW you may find in years to come, the same situation, just a difference face on the pillow next to you. Part of the problem is how you cope with relationships at certain stages. You've only gone and confused the matter because you've thrown in emotion for this OW now.

[shermanator]

This suggests to me that you're no nearer deciding and making your decision the right one. Essentially, it seems to me you've outsourced the decision about who you want to be to someone else (your OW). You told her you wanted to be with her - that *seemed* like a decision, but your response to her response shows that it wasn't a decision but merely a testing of the waters. If it was a real decision, you'd have gone through with it irrespective - you'd have left, then told her, and taken her response in your stride.

 

So, your "decision" is a non-decision. You haven't decided to leave your M, and you haven't decided to stay - you're just treading water. You ask, wouldn't it be better if you stayed (since the OW didn't bite your arm off when you told her you wanted to be with her). I'd say no - not unless you really want to be there and are choosing to be there. It's not fair to anyone - you all get stuck with a suboptimal situation because no one is unhappy enough to pull the plug. The note your wife gave you suggests she knows something is wrong, but she can't put her finger on it.

 

Sherman, are you happy to be a passenger in your own life? I suspect happiness will elude you until you exercise some agency and *make* your life the one you want.

 

100% accurate, I think. Had I not met the OW, I probably wouldn't have questioned my current relationship as much. So, without her in the future, it seems crazy to leave my marriage.

 

I'm not scared of being alone (I know it'll be a stretch financially), but I'll miss seeing my kids everyday. I love them deeply. Once I made the decision to start a family, didn't I sort of lose the right to just 'make my life the one I want?'

 

In your situation, your current H made a decision to be with you, to continue your relationship and make it 'official' so to speak... If you'd pulled back and told him, "I'm not sure what I think anymore," would he have left his former wife?

[shermanator]

Sherm...all I can think to say to you right now is this...

 

GUILT...we experience it for a reason.

 

What should you do in light of that note from your wife?

 

It's simple.

 

Either become the man who DESERVED to receive that note...or free her up to meet him and be with him.

 

IMO...you don't deserve that note right now, considering what you've done, and the baldface LIE that your marriage is right now.

 

Either change things and EARN the praise that this note offers you...or get the hell out of her life.

 

Harsh...but I'm really hoping you finally take some actual stock of who you are and what you're doing...and DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

 

Of course I don't deserve that note right now. I didn't even know how to respond to her when she sent it...

 

And yes, I feel guilt. In IC this week, we talked about how the guilt I'm feeling is preventing me from opening back up to my W... like I realize that I don't deserve her because of what I've done and my self-loathing is now pushing my W further away.

[cocorico]

100% accurate, I think. Had I not met the OW, I probably wouldn't have questioned my current relationship as much. So, without her in the future, it seems crazy to leave my marriage.

 

I'm not scared of being alone (I know it'll be a stretch financially), but I'll miss seeing my kids everyday. I love them deeply. Once I made the decision to start a family, didn't I sort of lose the right to just 'make my life the one I want?'

 

In your situation, your current H made a decision to be with you, to continue your relationship and make it 'official' so to speak... If you'd pulled back and told him, "I'm not sure what I think anymore," would he have left his former wife?

 

TBH, yes, he would have. Like you, he hadn't questioned his M until he had something to compare it to. But once he had that comparison, he knew he was unable to be authentic within the M, and while he was prepared to stick it out until the kids were old enough to face a D, it wasn't where he really wanted to spend the rest of his life. While I didn't pull back at that stage, he did not know until I actually moved in with him that I would - he and the kids lived on their own for about 6 months before I moved in. At any point I could have called it quits, decided not to go ahead.... He had to be sure that he was doing it for him, because it was what he wanted, not because it was what I wanted because there were no guarantees.

 

Yes, like you he also felt that all of his rights to happiness and choice evaporated when he M and had kids, but his IC taught him that his rights mattered too, and that by acting the martyr he was teaching the wrong lesson to his kids, and perpetuating an unhealthy R with the W. It's not about your needs vs their needs anymore than it was for him and his kids - if it was, you would not have considered a FTR with your OW. Either "their needs" matter to you and so a R with your OW was never on the agenda (if it was a case of their needs vs yours) or it's not one vs the other, they'd be OK with a split - and your reasons for staying lie elsewhere. I suspect your inconsistent thinking is really just a symptom of your continued confusion.

 

As I've said before, I don't have a dog in the race and where you end up, and who with, makes no difference to me. But it will make a huge difference to the people in your situation in the sense that choosing one and making it work will offer everyone a positive solution, while continuing to withdraw into detached inaction, allowing time to pass without driving your life will just make it woes for everyone. Already your W is struggling, reaching out with notes to try to fix something she knows so wrong but has no way into. It's a matter of time before this malaise reaches your kids - if it hasn't already. You think you're doing everyone a favour by staying but you're not - not if you're staying like this. If you stay, it must be because you choose to stay, because it's what you really really want and even of your OW phoned you up and said "let's do it" you wouldn't regret your choice to stay for a moment. If you don't have that certainty, that confidence... then your staying is not a choice but a submission.

 

If you really care about your kids, your W, your OW - make your choice, make it work, let them live authentic lives instead of trapping them all in the web of your inertia. Even the Pope abolished Limbo!

[cocorico]

Ah, torn between something that will require work and something that will easy

 

Neither choice is easy. Both require loss, grieving, hard work and determination. The "easy choice" is what Sherman is doing by default, ie not deciding, hoping time / fate / someone else will take the choice out of his hands and make it for him.

 

It's also the quickest and surest route to clinical depression. (IME)

[FredJones80]

Neither choice is easy.

 

Easy in the sense that marriage requires "work" and a new relationship is pretty easy... that's until it isn't new any more and then starts requiring "work" again.

 

I think you have to be very careful telling someone who is "in love" or "infatuated" the following :-

 

because it's what you really really want and even of your OW phoned you up and said "let's do it" you wouldn't regret your choice to stay for a moment. If you don't have that certainty, that confidence... then your staying is not a choice but a submission.

 

As we know, he has fallen for this new woman so he is basically in the early stages of a normal relationship where actions are based on emotion and impulse. How many people have moved, got married or a million other things in those very early days only to question them later, because in this state you think short term about your instant gratification and satisfying your "right here, right now" needs.

 

There are no long term thoughts, someone who gets in to a new relationship doesn't think about "are we going to be together in 5 years", "do we have similar interests", "are our life goals compatible" etc etc. How does he know this woman doesn't want to go travelling for the next 5 years or adopt a bunch of kids? He doesn't, but he will give up his wife and family for a shot at something that is uncertain.

 

That isn't to say that is wrong but I honestly don't think he can make a sensible choice that is best for his long term.

 

He is that confused he is trying to weigh up the odds in YOUR situation which is irrelevant, looking for answers on how things worked out. Now he's got himself in to this mess I doubt his wife will ever be able to compete.

 

I don't see a happy ending to this for anyone involved unfortunately.

 

As quoted in another thread :-

 

“Love is a temporary madness, it erupts like volcanoes and then subsides. And when it subsides, you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots have so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the promulgation of promises of eternal passion, it is not the desire to mate every second minute of the day, it is not lying awake at night imagining that he is kissing every cranny of your body. No, don’t blush, I am telling you some truths. That is just being “in love”, which any fool can do. Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away, and this is both an art and a fortunate accident.” ― Louis de Bernières

[Owl]

Of course I don't deserve that note right now. I didn't even know how to respond to her when she sent it...

 

And yes, I feel guilt. In IC this week, we talked about how the guilt I'm feeling is preventing me from opening back up to my W... like I realize that I don't deserve her because of what I've done and my self-loathing is now pushing my W further away.

 

I'm going to try this just one more time...maybe if I do it subtly...

 

 

THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TELL YOUR WIFE WHAT'S GOING ON, GIVE HER SOME UNDERSTANDING ABOUT WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG IN YOUR MARRIAGE...AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE STRENGTH TO MAKE A CHOICE...FREE HER TO DO SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Yep...that's me...master of subtlety.

[Mr. Lucky]

In IC this week, we talked about how the guilt I'm feeling is preventing me from opening back up to my W... like I realize that I don't deserve her because of what I've done and my self-loathing is now pushing my W further away.

It's amazing how skilled people in your position become at developing reasons why they can't act.

 

You can't open up to your wife because you feel guilty.

 

You can't tell her the truth because she'll be hurt.

 

You can't leave because your kids will be affected.

 

You can't be with the OW because she doesn't trust a married man who cheats.

 

You've rationalized that your actions are justified in order to protect those that depend on you. And that you've paid a price for doing so. Unhappiness. Self-loathing. Loss of love. You're tormented. Your wife is confused. I'll assume the OW is sad. Maybe even on some level your kids sense something going on.

 

What's the next step ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[notbroken]

Does anyone including the OP think that he will really live 'happily ever after' with the OW? She will never fully trust you. She knows you are a cheater. Doesn't seem like the foundation of a great long term relationship.

 

 

It's a fantasy. You have a real life at home.

 

 

Doesn't seem like the real choice is between the other woman and your family. It may be between being a single guy with a potential girlfriend vs staying with your family. Even if you decide to leave your wife and family, I seriously doubt you have a chance at a real long term relationship with your fantasy partner. Reality will set in.

 

 

Regardless, you have to do something. Limbo sucks for all concerned. Commit to either leaving or staying (and being faithful and building your marriage back).

[FredJones80]

Does anyone including the OP think that he will really live 'happily ever after' with the OW? She will never fully trust you. She knows you are a cheater. Doesn't seem like the foundation of a great long term relationship.

 

It's a fantasy. You have a real life at home.

 

My personal opinion (not that it matters) is agreement with you, it won't work out.

 

As long as his marriage didn't have serious issues then he contributed to it's downfall. If he doesn't recognise that (seeing as he can't fix it because he doesn't even know what, if anything is wrong) then I fail to see how he'll react when his fantasy becomes a real relationship and some time passes.

 

Same problems, different face.

[jackslife]

I'm not convinced that endless IC (or even endless commenting) on here will sort the problem either. Going over and over the same old thing won't change anything, actions will.

 

Sit down with your wife and talk to her, tell her you're unhappy in the marriage, discuss her feelings, talk and listen, ask questions, talk to her, listen to her, communicate with her, your hopes, your loves, your fears. But as has been mentioned, many, many, many times on here you need to do something.

 

Remember the scene in The Matrix where Laurence Fishburne offers Neo a choice of 2 pills. Neo has to pick one. Now imagine if at that point instead of Neo picking a pill, he spent the the rest of the movie and the next 2 sequels talking about his choice, his life, his potential pitfalls etc.

 

That's where you are right now. Limbo. Make a decision. Get your life moving again.

[violet1]

I feel so bad for your wife. That letter she wrote was beautiful and heart felt. She's trying to reconnect with you and here you are pining away for your OW. I get it takes time to get over an AP. It took me awhile too and there are days that I still miss him. However, I know it was a fantasy relationship and that my H is the one who truly loves me.

 

Your wife loves you and it's obvious. You need to either put 100% into your M or let her go. Don't stay just for the kids or because the OW doesn't want you. It's almost like your wife has become your back up plan. That makes me sad for her.

[beach]

Nothing will change until you start participating in a way that invests in your marriage.

 

Staying married but pining away for your OW will not make your M better - yet this is what you've been doing.

 

It's obvious your W cares about you and is interested in a healthy marriage - but how can you get that when you're not committed to her by offering the same right back to her? You can't.

 

So IF you're not planning to give your M 200% effort - then just stop wasting your W's time and energy. Years could go by and it will still remain the same if you don't start doing everything differently.

[cocorico]

Nothing will change until you start participating in a way that invests in your marriage.

 

 

Nothing will change until you make a decision and follow through. Whichever way.

[woinlove]

I think my kids could handle the transition, but, if there's no OW, wouldn't it be better if I didn't split?

 

I don't love the drama, but these boards are the only place (outside of IC), I can talk to people and hear about other experiences... if you're tired of it, stop posting, I guess.

 

As for telling me to speed up and that my wife is miserable, here's a message she sent me TODAY. How do I handle this? Oh, thanks for the note, I met someone else??

 

 

First, whatever the outcome, do remember you've been a very fortunate person to share part of your life with a partner who writes you a note like that. Secret affairs are heady and can prevent you from seeing the big picture, so even if this chapter of your family life is over, try to stop to appreciate the years you had that can nurture that kind of deep appreciation and love.

 

Second, you ask if you should respond by expressing thanks and saying you met someone else. Yes! I think honesty is best with those who love us and have shared so much of our life (3 children together is another huge blessing). That honesty should be combined with as much kindness as you can muster, so not a blunt, thanks but my head and heart are with another woman. First take some time to reflect on where your wife's head and heart are and what that means to her, and then open up to her with respect and truth.

 

You don't know whether you want to stay with your wife, but you also don't know whether your wife would want to stay with you if she knew the truth. Give her the respect of allowing her to know what is going on with you.

[shermanator]

First, whatever the outcome, do remember you've been a very fortunate person to share part of your life with a partner who writes you a note like that. Secret affairs are heady and can prevent you from seeing the big picture, so even if this chapter of your family life is over, try to stop to appreciate the years you had that can nurture that kind of deep appreciation and love.

 

Second, you ask if you should respond by expressing thanks and saying you met someone else. Yes! I think honesty is best with those who love us and have shared so much of our life (3 children together is another huge blessing). That honesty should be combined with as much kindness as you can muster, so not a blunt, thanks but my head and heart are with another woman. First take some time to reflect on where your wife's head and heart are and what that means to her, and then open up to her with respect and truth.

 

You don't know whether you want to stay with your wife, but you also don't know whether your wife would want to stay with you if she knew the truth. Give her the respect of allowing her to know what is going on with you.

 

This is a beautifully written post. We started another round of MC last week ... I can see the pain I've caused and it's been brutal. I don't know if we are going to make it or not, but I figure my W deserves to know what I've done and my kids are worth me giving our M a real effort.

 

This MC doesn't let either one of us off the hook... the first session was hard on both of us and he allowed us to feel safe enough to say things that we'd never say outside of his office.

[CarrieT]

he allowed us to feel safe enough to say things that we'd never say outside of his office.

Does this mean you have confessed yet?

[shermanator]

Does this mean you have confessed yet?

 

I did a partial confession during the first session... EA, developed feelings for someone else. I guess that's a trickle truth or whatever you call it. So, no, I haven't fully confessed.

 

My wife has begged me not to tell her things that aren't going to help us move forward... To me, that's another clue that, deep down, she probably knows there's more to the story. She wants to figure out how/why we got so emotionally disconnected.

 

I told her that, when she told me she was pregnant with our 3rd child, I didn't know whether to be happy or sad because of how I was feeling about our marriage and that crushed her... she said, 'that's water under the bridge and it doesn't help us move forward... it might make you feel better, but it does nothing to help me. Please don't tell me any other things like that.'

 

When I was drinking, I buried a lot of these thoughts/emotions, so now that I'm trying to share what I'm thinking, it's hard for her to hear it from me, because she was so used to me keeping stuff bottled up.

[CarrieT]

My wife has begged me not to tell her things that aren't going to help us move forward... To me, that's another clue that, deep down, she probably knows there's more to the story.

I would be curious as to your counselor's response to this. Her statement is a two-sided coin that - like you said - deep down, she probably knows there is more, but there is a point where - I believe - you do need to stop the trickle truth and confess everything.

 

That *is* what is going to help both of you move forward. Trickle truth will not, because you will still be holding so much of the lie inside. She needs to know that you were physically intimate with another person...

[Hope Shimmers]

She needs to know that you were physically intimate with another person...

 

You don't know that, as you don't know her. You might know it for YOU, but not everyone is you. Not everyone thinks like you or others here. Only SHE can know that, and other than her, the OP is in the best position to know what she wants and needs to hear.

[Owl]

I'm not a fan of the trickle truth, but by the same token, if your wife flat out said "don't tell me anything more than what I have to know to move forward", she's telling you she doesn't want to know everything.

 

It's not common, but there are some folks out there who live like that.

 

I'd suggest that you have a one on one session with the MC...tell them the full truth, and have them figure out what your wife needs to hear and doesn't need to hear, based on her request.

 

Your comment about being able to say things in his office you couldn't have outside his office outlines one of the main reasons that MC was key to saving my own marriage back in the day.

[woinlove]

I did a partial confession during the first session... EA, developed feelings for someone else. I guess that's a trickle truth or whatever you call it. So, no, I haven't fully confessed.

 

My wife has begged me not to tell her things that aren't going to help us move forward... To me, that's another clue that, deep down, she probably knows there's more to the story. She wants to figure out how/why we got so emotionally disconnected.

 

I told her that, when she told me she was pregnant with our 3rd child, I didn't know whether to be happy or sad because of how I was feeling about our marriage and that crushed her... she said, 'that's water under the bridge and it doesn't help us move forward... it might make you feel better, but it does nothing to help me. Please don't tell me any other things like that.'

 

When I was drinking, I buried a lot of these thoughts/emotions, so now that I'm trying to share what I'm thinking, it's hard for her to hear it from me, because she was so used to me keeping stuff bottled up.

 

The example of saying you didn't know if you were happy or sad about expecting your 3rd child is different, so I don't think you can translate that to an affair. You may have demonstrated that you do fully love and accept your 3rd child and are happy to have him/her in your life, so as your wife says "it is water under the bridge" if you at one time doubted that. I don't see how your wife or anyone could think the fact that you have feelings right now for another woman - "dying to be with her" right now - is "water under the bridge". Not the same at all.

 

You may want to continue keeping your secrets, in which case it is difficult to not view everything through the lens of your own self-interests.

 

It would be useful to bring up this topic together in counselling - the fact that your wife said she didn't want you to tell her things that won't help her move forward and you wonder if this includes your affair. However, if you aren't prepared to tell the truth, there may be no point in asking.

 

ETA just saw Owl's response and a one-on-one with the counsellor is another way to go on this. Either would be more useful than jumping to conclusions on whether your wife wants to know the true nature of your affair and that it was physical as well as emotional -- if there is any chance you would be willing to tell the truth.

Edited July 29, 2014 by woinlove

[waterwoman]

I am glad you have told her something at least. I can understand your reluctance to open up completely - she has more or less told you not to! BUT... if you don't give her complete honesty how will your marriage survive, in what sort of state? If you were 100% committed to your wife and 100% certain that the OW and the affair were in the past and done with, and you could wave it all goodbye happily, maybe this would work, you could work on making your marriage stronger and your relationship with your wife a good one ...but you're still on the fence.

 

You will be fighting a battle on two fronts, for your marriage/wife and against the feelings for the OW. That is a hard and lonely battle if your wife doesn't understand how deep you got in the affair. She is your wife, she loves you, she has demonstrated that she sticks by your when life gets tough, maybe trust her to do it again against a far more serious problem.

 

BTW re third pregnancy - when I was pregnant with number 3 I wasn't sure about anything! He was a 'mishap' and much as I adore him now, I cried for about the first month of the pregnancy and was very unsure for the rest of it. No 3 is a real game changer IME - life is just much more challenging with 3 than 2.

[nycrunner]

DELETED - just read the last post

Edited August 1, 2014 by nycrunner
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