My (not unique) story...

[Mr. Lucky]

I don't know that we are in a 'dead' zone yet... our MC has seen our interactions and, in his words, thinks we still have a spark or connection that is worth saving.

 

Do you agree? You see the framework of a relationship that will sustain BOTH of you for the rest of your lives?

 

Mr. Lucky

[RoseVille]

In the OP, you said:

 

...we agreed to step back until I figured out what to do with my marriage. She's told me that she loves me and can see a life with me and my kids - understanding how messy things might be.

 

And now, you're re-writing history, by spinning into this:

 

She wanted to wreck my marriage and step in as a mom to my kids.

 

She didn't want to wreck your marriage. YOU wanted to wreck your marriage. She just wanted to be with you.

[shermanator]

In the OP, you said:

 

 

 

And now, you're re-writing history, by spinning into this:

 

 

 

She didn't want to wreck your marriage. YOU wanted to wreck your marriage. She just wanted to be with you.

 

Fair point... In IC, my therapist has said that, based on my description of her, the OW has her own set of issues to work on. She was willing to engage with a married man, with kids, and that I should take that into consideration.

[shermanator]

IMO, everything is backwards in the OP's case. He treats the OW like an ex GF, not an Ex AP. The Ex AP should be looked at as a enemy of the marriage for reconciliation to work, not as the one who got away. He treats his wife like a rebound relationship. The poor wife doesn't have a chance. The kids will grow up thinking their parent's dynamic is normal and will likely follow in the same foot steps. Is this what you want Sherm?

 

I keep thinking about this post... and you're right, I'm having a hard time seeing the xAP as an enemy. I care deeply for her and it's hard to imagine her as evil.

 

But, when I'm with my W and the kids, I'm engaged. I'm present. I'm not 1,000 miles away, thinking about the OW. I don't think the dynamic with my W is as toxic as you are imaging. Maybe I'm in denial, but there's no screaming, undercutting and nastiness... overt gross behavior is not how we operate. We are laughing together again and having fun.

 

It's when I'm alone, working, driving, etc, that I think back to her and slip into the affair fog.

[shermanator]

I keep thinking about this post... and you're right, I'm having a hard time seeing the xAP as an enemy. I care deeply for her and it's hard to imagine her as evil.

 

But, when I'm with my W and the kids, I'm engaged. I'm present. I'm not 1,000 miles away, thinking about the OW. I don't think the dynamic with my W is as toxic as you are imaging. Maybe I'm in denial, but there's no screaming, undercutting and nastiness... overt gross behavior is not how we operate. We are laughing together again and having fun.

 

It's when I'm alone, working, driving, etc, that I think back to her and slip into the affair fog.

 

I also toss and turn at night, from time to time, thinking about her. Which is super unhealthy.

[violet1]

I keep thinking about this post... and you're right, I'm having a hard time seeing the xAP as an enemy. I care deeply for her and it's hard to imagine her as evil.

 

But, when I'm with my W and the kids, I'm engaged. I'm present. I'm not 1,000 miles away, thinking about the OW. I don't think the dynamic with my W is as toxic as you are imaging. Maybe I'm in denial, but there's no screaming, undercutting and nastiness... overt gross behavior is not how we operate. We are laughing together again and having fun.

 

It's when I'm alone, working, driving, etc, that I think back to her and slip into the affair fog.

I don't think any OW is an evil person. However, when you knowingly and willingly get involved with a married person, you play a role in the deterioration of another person's marriage. When feelings started to develop between the two of you, she could have said no. You are both equally responsible. I'm only encouraging you to change your perspective so your reconciliation can have a chance to work. Constantly thinking fondly of or reminiscing over the OW is not healthy for the marriage. Affairs are relationships, but they're not the same as an out in the open traditional type of relationship. Your relationship with the OW was based on lies. Look at the relationship with her as it really was- unhealthy and deceptive.

 

 

I advised you to think of her as an enemy to your marriage. She wasn't your personal enemy, no. However, she played a role in hurting your marriage and your wife. You want to stay married right? You want to fall back in love with your wife, right? If this is the case, your perspective has to change. Making comments that you are still in love with the OW and the jealousy of her with other men concerns me. This I why I think your marriage might be toxic. Your marriage is not just between you and your wife. You are thinking of another woman when you are alone. Your wife lashed out at you over it. Obviously, your constant thinking of the OW is hurting your wife. I think you are trying, but you continually put your OW on a pedestal. I think that's hurtful to your W and M. Do you think your behavior is healthy for your marriage?

[turnera]

Unless you lied to your AP and said you were single, your AP IS at the very least, immoral and selfish, and very possibly a predator, for seeking out a married man.

[RoseVille]

Fair point... In IC, my therapist has said that, based on my description of her, the OW has her own set of issues to work on. She was willing to engage with a married man, with kids, and that I should take that into consideration.

 

We all have sh*t we need to own, but don't make her out to be some sort of predator out to destroy your life and hurt the people you love.

 

Most of us just don't think - in the moment - that we can do better, or want to try to do better. That doesn't make us malicious predators, particularly when we're just naively going along with what's presented to us and thinking it'll never cause problems.

[turnera]

We all have sh*t we need to own, but don't make her out to be some sort of predator out to destroy your life and hurt the people you love.

 

Most of us just don't think - in the moment - that we can do better, or want to try to do better. That doesn't make us malicious predators, particularly when we're just naively going along with what's presented to us and thinking it'll never cause problems.

Taking up with a married man doesn't make you a predator? Seriously? Even though you know you just stole something from his wife?

 

Knowingly taking up with a MARRIED man is naive? Maybe for someone with an 80 IQ.

 

So you pick the married man because you're lazy and/or don't think a 'better' man (i.e. one with morals) will want you?

 

Ok. Then it just makes you SELFISH.

[RoseVille]

Taking up with a married man doesn't make you a predator? Seriously?

 

Correct. I did not seek out a MM; he was not my prey. We were equals, or if anything, I was his prey thanks to skillful manipulation on his part and naively giving him the benefit of the doubt on mine.

 

Even though you know you just stole something from his wife?

 

I didn't steal anything from her. He took what was his to protect and threw it away.

 

Knowingly taking up with a MARRIED man is naive? Maybe for someone with an 80 IQ.

 

You twisted what I said, but yes, it was naive to think that just because the wife has no clue and will never find out that no one (including myself) would be harmed by the affair.

 

So you pick the married man because you're lazy and/or don't think a 'better' man (i.e. one with morals) will want you?

 

Ok. Then it just makes you SELFISH.

 

Not exactly. More like didn't think I could do better in terms of finding someone I felt so connected and attracted to.

 

And since I believed going in that our involvement would be limited to the physical, and believed (and still do) that the physical is not something his W cares for anyway (she's repressed), I did not see the issue at the time, beyond the danger of eventually catching feelings and wanting more.

[Hope Shimmers]

Taking up with a married man doesn't make you a predator? Seriously? Even though you know you just stole something from his wife?

 

How does anyone 'steal' a person? People have free will, married or not. How do you 'steal' a person who willingly participated and perhaps even initiated? You're acting like someone kidnapped him at gunpoint.

[turnera]

How does anyone 'steal' a person? People have free will, married or not. How do you 'steal' a person who willingly participated and perhaps even initiated? You're acting like someone kidnapped him at gunpoint.

I didn't say she stole a person. I said she stole what should have been his wife's: his time, his sex, his sperm, his allegiance, any number of things.

[turnera]

Correct. I did not seek out a MM; he was not my prey. We were equals, or if anything, I was his prey thanks to skillful manipulation on his part and naively giving him the benefit of the doubt on mine.

Oh, aren't you the pitiful VICTIM?

 

The minute you found out he was married, YOU COULD HAVE WALKED AWAY.

 

You DIDN'T. You CHOSE to screw a married man.

 

You twisted what I said, but yes, it was naive to think that just because the wife has no clue and will never find out that no one (including myself) would be harmed by the affair.

Now YOU are twisting what I said. I said you can't SCREW a married man and not know it's wrong. To be naive on whether it is wrong would require you to have a substandard IQ.

 

Not exactly. More like didn't think I could do better in terms of finding someone I felt so connected and attracted to.

 

And since I believed going in that our involvement would be limited to the physical, and believed (and still do) that the physical is not something his W cares for anyway (she's repressed)

Says every cheating husband ever. And you just lapped it up. Because you WANTED him, whether he was married or not.

 

Like I said, selfish.

[RoseVille]

...his time

 

No.

 

his sex

 

Didn't "steal" it. He's a willing participant, free will and allathat.

 

his sperm

 

Ha, nope. Snip snip!

 

his allegiance

 

Nope, his allegiance was always clear: it's with his family.

[RoseVille]

Oh, aren't you the pitiful VICTIM?

 

The minute you found out he was married, YOU COULD HAVE WALKED AWAY.

 

You DIDN'T. You CHOSE to screw a married man.

 

Now YOU are twisting what I said. I said you can't SCREW a married man and not know it's wrong. To be naive on whether it is wrong would require you to have a substandard IQ.

 

Says every cheating husband ever. And you just lapped it up. Because you WANTED him, whether he was married or not.

 

Like I said, selfish.

 

Did I personally offend you or something? What's with the anger? Please stop projecting whatever you're going through onto me.

 

I am not a victim, never claimed to be. I own my choices. I just know that they were naive when made.

[turnera]

I am not a victim, never claimed to be. I own my choices. I just know that they were naive when made.

You said you were his victim:

I did not seek out a MM; he was not my prey. We were equals, or if anything, I was his prey thanks to skillful manipulation on his part

[RoseVille]

You said you were his victim:

 

I said we were equals, and that if either of us were prey, it was me, not him.

 

Your anger is misdirected.

[Hope Shimmers]

I didn't say she stole a person. I said she stole what should have been his wife's: his time, his sex, his sperm, his allegiance, any number of things.

 

Those things are all specific to a person. They are not "things" that anyone owns, to be 'stolen'. They are characteristics that any given individual chooses whether or not to share with someone else. He chose to do so.

[shermanator]

I don't think any OW is an evil person. However, when you knowingly and willingly get involved with a married person, you play a role in the deterioration of another person's marriage. When feelings started to develop between the two of you, she could have said no. You are both equally responsible. I'm only encouraging you to change your perspective so your reconciliation can have a chance to work. Constantly thinking fondly of or reminiscing over the OW is not healthy for the marriage. Affairs are relationships, but they're not the same as an out in the open traditional type of relationship. Your relationship with the OW was based on lies. Look at the relationship with her as it really was- unhealthy and deceptive.

 

 

I advised you to think of her as an enemy to your marriage. She wasn't your personal enemy, no. However, she played a role in hurting your marriage and your wife. You want to stay married right? You want to fall back in love with your wife, right? If this is the case, your perspective has to change. Making comments that you are still in love with the OW and the jealousy of her with other men concerns me. This I why I think your marriage might be toxic. Your marriage is not just between you and your wife. You are thinking of another woman when you are alone. Your wife lashed out at you over it. Obviously, your constant thinking of the OW is hurting your wife. I think you are trying, but you continually put your OW on a pedestal. I think that's hurtful to your W and M. Do you think your behavior is healthy for your marriage?

 

It's hard for me to see my relationship with the OW as one based on lies - I was honest with her about everything. She knew I was married, I never promised I was leaving, etc. I was weak to not walk away when I started having feelings. It's such a cliche, but I never thought about the consequences.

 

I'm concerned about feeling jealous about her being with another guy. I can't harbor those feelings and give my marriage a genuine shot. I had a meeting in town today, near her gym, and I drove by. I thought seriously about stopping.

 

When I'm underground or distant, I know I'm hurting my wife and our marriage. I'm using behavior techniques from IC to try and teach myself how to let go of the feelings and emotions. You are right, though, my behavior, during those underground/distant times, IS disruptive to the marriage and I understand that. I know my wife deserves better and, if we are going to survive, I need to give us a real chance - based on us - not based on the fantasy of how perfect things would be with the OW.

[shermanator]

We all have sh*t we need to own, but don't make her out to be some sort of predator out to destroy your life and hurt the people you love.

 

Most of us just don't think - in the moment - that we can do better, or want to try to do better. That doesn't make us malicious predators, particularly when we're just naively going along with what's presented to us and thinking it'll never cause problems.

 

That's a pretty big reach from what I said... I just said that my IC, based on my description of the OW, suggested that I tread carefully. I don't, for a second, think she set out on a warpath to destroy my family. I don't think she's a predator and I know she feels guilt over what we did.

[turnera]

I said we were equals, and that if either of us were prey, it was me, not him.

 

Your anger is misdirected.

I have no anger. I am not a BS. I just think bullshyte justification for immoral behavior should be called out for the bullshyte that it is.

[violet1]

It's hard for me to see my relationship with the OW as one based on lies - I was honest with her about everything. She knew I was married, I never promised I was leaving, etc. I was weak to not walk away when I started having feelings. It's such a cliche, but I never thought about the consequences.

 

I'm concerned about feeling jealous about her being with another guy. I can't harbor those feelings and give my marriage a genuine shot. I had a meeting in town today, near her gym, and I drove by. I thought seriously about stopping.

 

When I'm underground or distant, I know I'm hurting my wife and our marriage. I'm using behavior techniques from IC to try and teach myself how to let go of the feelings and emotions. You are right, though, my behavior, during those underground/distant times, IS disruptive to the marriage and I understand that. I know my wife deserves better and, if we are going to survive, I need to give us a real chance - based on us - not based on the fantasy of how perfect things would be with the OW.

You didn't stop by her gym. That's a good step. It shows that you are demonstrating self control. You just need to work on changing your perception of your A.

 

 

You can't look at your OW as the perfect woman, the one who got away. Your marriage doesn't have a shot if you continue to live in the fantasy of the OW. Try looking at her as someone you used to know. Push yourself to feeling indifference towards her. Challenge yourself a bit here. Every time you are alone and start thinking about the OW, do something for your wife and family. It could be something simple like sending your wife a I love you or miss you text. These are things I would do when I was trying to be over my exAP. I would also listen to music or watch YouTube videos. You could also try journaling. Writing in a journal is very therapeutic. There are a lot o things you can do. I was also very deep in my A. I never thought I would get over the exAP, but I did and my M is doing pretty good for the most part. You can get there too. Just keep pushing along.

[violet1]

That's a pretty big reach from what I said... I just said that my IC, based on my description of the OW, suggested that I tread carefully. I don't, for a second, think she set out on a warpath to destroy my family. I don't think she's a predator and I know she feels guilt over what we did.

Maybe...but she didn't feel enough guilt to stop herself from emailing you recently, did she? Especially since she knows you are trying to work on your marriage. She's probably not an evil or horrible person, but in order for an A to happen, a level of selfishness is required from both AP's. Most people who have cheated, myself included, don't think about consequences or the ones we hurt. I didn't think I would get caught, I didn't think anyone would get hurt. I was wrong! I wasn't thinking about anything but myself.

 

 

Sherm, just remember, just like you, your OW wasn't thinking about the people she would hurt. You were both very selfish. If she or you had stopped, it would be a different story. I don't believe all people who knowingly get involved in affairs are evil A holes, but I do believe they are being very selfish. Affairs and selfishness play hand in hand.

[shermanator]

You didn't stop by her gym. That's a good step. It shows that you are demonstrating self control. You just need to work on changing your perception of your A.

 

 

You can't look at your OW as the perfect woman, the one who got away. Your marriage doesn't have a shot if you continue to live in the fantasy of the OW. Try looking at her as someone you used to know. Push yourself to feeling indifference towards her. Challenge yourself a bit here. Every time you are alone and start thinking about the OW, do something for your wife and family. It could be something simple like sending your wife a I love you or miss you text. These are things I would do when I was trying to be over my exAP. I would also listen to music or watch YouTube videos. You could also try journaling. Writing in a journal is very therapeutic. There are a lot o things you can do. I was also very deep in my A. I never thought I would get over the exAP, but I did and my M is doing pretty good for the most part. You can get there too. Just keep pushing along.

 

This is what my IC has said, as well. She's given me techniques to try when I start to think about the OW. I'm surrounded by triggers, which is tough. I also think about how LONG I took to develop feelings (almost a year), which led to the EA, then the PA.

[shermanator]

Maybe...but she didn't feel enough guilt to stop herself from emailing you recently, did she? Especially since she knows you are trying to work on your marriage. She's probably not an evil or horrible person, but in order for an A to happen, a level of selfishness is required from both AP's. Most people who have cheated, myself included, don't think about consequences or the ones we hurt. I didn't think I would get caught, I didn't think anyone would get hurt. I was wrong! I wasn't thinking about anything but myself.

 

 

Sherm, just remember, just like you, your OW wasn't thinking about the people she would hurt. You were both very selfish. If she or you had stopped, it would be a different story. I don't believe all people who knowingly get involved in affairs are evil A holes, but I do believe they are being very selfish. Affairs and selfishness play hand in hand.

 

We did stop, though.

 

Ultimately, our guilt and selfishness (coupled with me not being available as often as my xAP wanted), led to us backing away. We never had a 'true' D-Day and my W doesn't know the true extent of the A - she has basically said 'I don't want to know anything else... I know that you had feelings for someone else and that's enough for me.'

 

Because I let the EA grow and grow and grow while I fell in love the my xAP, I started to resent my W and just see her faults. I did that for a LONG time, which is making the reconnecting pretty tough.