So many questions about my faith

[firmness]

First of all let me ask respectfully and kindly to avoid preaching at me or quoting scripture. I also hope anyone who answers will just answer the question and be civil and refrain from bullying. So on to my story and question...

 

Since childhood I have come to understand that I never truly believed in God, I just accepted it. It was all around me and still is.

 

Over the years though, so many basic fundamental questions have been posed by philosophers and I am finally reading what they had to say over the past 1,000 years or so. Mighty and powerful intellects have grappled with this question of God, the origins of the Universe, the Afterlife, etc.

 

The most beautiful answer that transcends all myths, legends, and other feeble explanations is nature herself.

 

 

The virtual infinite expanse of the Universe, the way we have evolved, the way we think and learn, the way nature on earth works, black holes and quasars. Wow! Now THAT is awe inspiring. The grand complexity of it all.

 

Now here is the most important part - I only moved through religion when two things happened:

 

1. I was no longer afraid of being mistreated by my family, friends, church or my woman in questioning such things. That is a biggie.

 

2. I started learning about the reality around me. Not what I believe to be reality - but the actual for real measurable, testable reality.

 

 

Reality: The natural and manmade world - the universe, is far more wondrous than any bible could ever be and has filled me with a deeper sense of love, compassion and respect for nature and humanity than I ever had before.

 

Now I fear religion. It seems petty and small and sleazy. Every time I point out an atrocity in the bible I get people saying either "Hey! That is not MY Jesus - my personal God is the God of love..." or the familiar "God works in mysterious ways..."

 

Both of these are disgusting sleazy responses to very real moral and ethical questions - which is why it makes religion seem even worse.

 

There is not an atrocity that I can think of that some Christian or Muslim could not just shoosh away. And it is the apparent ease and flippant nature of that shooshing that scares me.

 

It is in those moments that I realize how people in Germany could have turned a blind eye to the Nazis. This is fear plain and simple. Don't get me wrong, I am not calling religious people Nazis, but I get it now. Same mechanisms. People keep their mouths shut when they are scared.

 

And looping it back, I feel a bit sad and perhaps a bit guilty. I have made it through. I no longer have that fear. But so many people live in fear of death, the afterlife, superstition, and the ridicule of their families that they will never be free of it.

 

And that makes me very deeply sad - because there are so many.

 

Has anyone else gone through a similar spiritual journey?

[umirano]

Pretty much, and many fellow non-believers I know were on the same journey.

 

Religion damages people's mind and the political fallout of religion damages societies. That is sad. I do my best to inform people about this problem, and I have been fairly successful on- and offline. Getting the word out and helping people understand that we have THIS one life on THIS planet to take care of improves our world. Because it sets the priorities right. It's here and now where we should give it our all. Not in an imaginary afterlife. Right now, right here we have to be compassionate, smart, helping and caring.

 

Moving away from religion helped my family. We're happier and more tolerant with each other and other people in general now. Things are easier and more relaxed. No more irrational crazy fears.

 

There are still very many delusional people out there though, and the slaughtering of fellow humans because of absurd beliefs in old mythical texts is ongoing sadly. Ongoing as well is the abuse of the power implied by the alleged possession of spiritual truths. Clerics of all colors and flavors use the trust of weak people to get money and sex and power over their feelings of guilt.

 

But it's getting better. More and more people are starting to see through it and never in recorded history have been more people freeing themselves of the shackles of mythical threats to sanity, logic, compassion and true appreciation of our universe.

 

I haven't been a fervent believer, and I probably was a functional naturalist/realist/skeptic early on. Yet it took me another ten years (into my 20s) to intellectually dissect the claims of theism and see that there's nothing true, beautiful or even useful about it. I'm glad it happened, and I'm glad for the clarity that I have gained.

Edited June 18, 2014 by umirano

[M30USA]

Firmness,

 

You asked us kindly to not use Scripture etc in our responses. While I will respect your wishes, I have question for you. How are we to direct you to the way of life when Jesus alone has the words of life? Would you have us direct you to the light using only darkness? Or have a doctor try to cure you of an illness without using medicine?

Edited June 18, 2014 by M30USA

[umirano]

M30USA, like so often I have the impression you're completely missing the OP's point.

 

He's not "in the dark" or in need of "medicine". If you were honest with yourself you'd see he is completely over the false sense of comfort that religion offers. Any religion, not just yours, but any of the hundreds of types of mono-/poly-/pan- or whatever- theism that have been documented.

 

He knows life, he isn't looking for guidance. He asks about other people's experience and progress when they rid themselves of religion. And expresses his feelings about the fact that still a lot of people are suffering from a negative, unhealthy spirituality.

 

I understand believers cannot even begin to fathom the type of calmness and peace of mind that a non-believer can have. But I assure you, resting your world view on verifiable, tested observations while freely admitting that there are things that still need to be investigated is incredibly relieving. It doesn't take away hope for good things to happen, and for life to be a joyous experience, or the faith in good people doing good things.

 

Non-believing does doesn't make make us want to do evil things. We do have a moral compass. There's no need to base one's view of the world on ancient books, not for morality, not for explanation of the origin of the world and life and not for everyday guidance of any sort.

[angel.eyes]

...

But so many people live in fear of death, the afterlife, superstition, and the ridicule of their families that they will never be free of it.

 

And that makes me very deeply sad - because there are so many.

 

Has anyone else gone through a similar spiritual journey?

 

I too feel that it's tragic when people succumb to external pressures rather than following what is in their heart.

 

To answer your question, most people do go on a spiritual journey at least once in their life. Justice, fairness, goodness, the meaning of life, and the purpose of our own lives are concepts that almost everyone grapples with, especially when exposed to how cruelly and callously humans will treat each other. There's a reason, I think, why most religions and systems of philosophy attempt to provide meaning and answer the tough questions that arise from living in an imperfect world. It's not coincidental.

 

People come to different conclusions as they go through their personal journey. Some find peace in their choices. Some don't. Follow what's in your heart. I do, and that provides the answers I need. I'm not worried or afraid of death, etc. Not quite ready to go there just yet, but that's not really my call to make. It will come when it comes, and I accept that.

 

I've delved extensively into the disconnect between near-universal societal ideals for human behavior and the reality of actual human actions and human nature. In the process, I've found answers that really work for me. Questioning is a very good thing in my book. It's part of the journey to find true inner peace. I wish you peace in your journey, wherever it might lead.

[M30USA]

Several posters have said to "follow what's in your heart". While I think it's important to learn your own identity and discover how you uniquely fit into the world, I think it can be potentially dangerous to follow your heart.

 

"The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

 

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart." (Proverbs 21:2)

 

(I know I said I wouldn't quote Scripture, but for me this is almost like asking me to stop breathing. Maybe I'll leave now.)

[pie2]

So many questions about my faith...

 

Has anyone else gone through a similar spiritual journey?

 

OP, I think it would help if you could define what "spiritual" means to you. Is there anything about finding beauty in nature that helps you in a spiritual realm? If so, how?

 

But regarding this thread, I don't know quite how to answer you. It seems that this isn't about faith...just the opposite, actually. It seems like you're moving towards belief in what a "measurable and testable reality" in nature and the universe. That is the opposite of faith.

[Glinda.Good]

I think I understand, and I am pretty sure that soon you will realize that you are just at the beginning of that journey and that it will take you through things you never would have expected.

 

One suggestion: try not to give too much focus on your disillusionment and disgust with organized religion and the way that people use the bible. Just keep your eyes, your heart and the spiritual center of you open.

[M30USA]

One suggestion: try not to give too much focus on your disillusionment and disgust with organized religion and the way that people use the bible. Just keep your eyes, your heart and the spiritual center of you open.

 

This can't be said enough. Remember how even Satan used exact quotes from Scripture while tempting Christ. If a person doesn't possess the Holy Spirit, then Scripture mean nothing.

Edited June 19, 2014 by M30USA

[pureinheart]

Several posters have said to "follow what's in your heart". While I think it's important to learn your own identity and discover how you uniquely fit into the world, I think it can be potentially dangerous to follow your heart.

 

"The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

 

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart." (Proverbs 21:2)

 

(I know I said I wouldn't quote Scripture, but for me this is almost like asking me to stop breathing. Maybe I'll leave now.)

 

This is scary:eek:

[todreaminblue]

i am not scared of much and yet i am scared of everything....multiple personality........

 

 

 

i have a noted philosopher who was also a devout christian apologist as a descendant and i will try and defend faith with his words for mine will never be good enough that i might be comfortable leaving them as a defense without the use of scriptures to incite a spirit of truth........... to touch your heart so i apologize as a fierce child apologist might for not having the knowledge without scriptures to be of use.... and that you would afford me the kindness to read my post regardless....

 

 

 

“The main point of Christianity was this: that Nature is not our mother: Nature is our sister. We can be proud of her beauty, since we have the same father; but she has no authority over us; we have to admire, but not to imitate. This gives to the typically Christian pleasure in this earth a strange touch of lightness that is almost frivolity. Nature was a solemn mother to the worshipers of Isis and Cybele. Nature was a solemn mother to Wordsworth or to Emerson. But Nature is not solemn to Francis of Assisi or to George Herbert. To St. Francis, Nature is a sister, and even a younger sister: a little, dancing sister, to be laughed at as well as loved.”

― G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy

 

 

 

 

“And as I close this chaotic volume I open again the strange small book from which all Christianity came; and I am again haunted by a kind of confirmation. The tremendous figure which fills the Gospels towers in this respect, as in every other, above all the thinkers who ever thought themselves tall. His pathos was natural, almost casual. The Stoics, ancient and modern, were proud of concealing their tears. He never concealed His tears; He showed them plainly on His open face at any daily sight, such as the far sight of His native city. Yet He concealed something. Solemn supermen and imperial diplomatists are proud of restraining their anger. He never restrained His anger. He flung furniture down the front steps of the Temple, and asked men how they expected to escape the damnation of Hell. Yet He restrained something. I say it with reverence; there was in that shattering personality a thread that must be called shyness. There was something that He hid from all men when He went up a mountain to pray. There was something that He covered constantly by abrupt silence or impetuous isolation. There was some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth; and I have sometimes fancied that it was His mirth.”

― G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy

 

 

 

 

“But the new rebel is a skeptic, and will not entirely trust anything. He has no loyalty; therefore he can never be really a revolutionist. And the fact that he doubts everything really gets in his way when he wants to denounce anything. For all denunciation implies a moral doctrine of some kind; and the modern revolutionist doubts not only the institution he denounces, but the doctrine by which he denounces it. . . . As a politician, he will cry out that war is a waste of life, and then, as a philosopher, that all life is waste of time. A Russian pessimist will denounce a policeman for killing a peasant, and then prove by the highest philosophical principles that the peasant ought to have killed himself. . . . The man of this school goes first to a political meeting, where he complains that savages are treated as if they were beasts; then he takes his hat and umbrella and goes on to a scientific meeting, where he proves that they practically are beasts. In short, the modern revolutionist, being an infinite skeptic, is always engaged in undermining his own mines. In his book on politics he attacks men for trampling on morality; in his book on ethics he attacks morality for trampling on men. Therefore the modern man in revolt has become practically useless for all purposes of revolt. By rebelling against everything he has lost his right to rebel against anything.”

― G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy

 

 

doubt is the killer to all progression of thought it leaves you to wallow in a languidity in a place of no conviction less sought, nor a fighter who defends can afford doubt, nor rebel to have a cause to fight for a true route,, nor apologist can have the strength to ignore .....a god who for him to stand, gave him a floor.. deb

 

and that is my dr suess style attempt at defense...child like maybe but that is mine..best wishes may you find truth wherever and whatever your heart wishes to see.......deborah

[todreaminblue]

This is scary:eek:

 

 

 

 

hey pure.....not really scary if you look at the scripture as human heart......the natural man in all of us.....that we as christians go against that natural man, good people fight the urges christian and non christian to satisfy selfishpursuits and ways of the world to stand firm in light of biblical principles given to guide as away from having the heaviness of a natural man at heart and godly ways and hearts take steadfast reign....we shall overcome...we are not perfect but we strive for that...but you knew that......didnt you?.if you wanted words of comfort i hope i helped...even if you didnt i stand with you.....hugses....deb

[Madman81]

Firmness,

 

You asked us kindly to not use Scripture etc in our responses. While I will respect your wishes, I have question for you. How are we to direct you to the way of life when Jesus alone has the words of life? Would you have us direct you to the light using only darkness? Or have a doctor try to cure you of an illness without using medicine?

The answer to the final question you pose above is "no, but if that doctor told me that my brain tumour should be treated by bleeding me to correct the imbalance of bodily humours, I'd look for a second opinion."

 

Christianity may be the "medicine" for some people, but for the majority of the people on earth, it isn't. Most of your fellow inhabitants of this small planet of ours in this insignificant corner of the universe don't agree that "Jesus alone has the words of life". To believe that the path to "the light" lies only through your views is to go through life with blinders on.

 

OP, in my personal, biased, blindered view, it's all about being guided by your own heart, your own mind, and your own personal values and beliefs, as long as those values and beliefs don't hurt other people, whose journeys are intrinsically just as valuable as yours, by simple virtue of the fact that they are THEIR JOURNEYS.

 

Sometime in the last year I came upon an excellent, irreverent, enlightening speech by Australian comedian Tim Minchin that he presented to the graduating class of the University of Western Australia. So inspired was I, and so concisely did it encompass my own personal views on life, that I emailed it to my kids (one being my daughter who's a year away from finishing high school) so that they might get something out of it. Here's a link to it:

 

Tim Minchin UWA Address (2013) - YouTube

 

He had some very valuable things to say, especially to a person like me who doesn't follow any organized faith but who instead makes a practice of following my own heart and mind, doing as little harm to others as I can and trying in a small way to bring happiness to others. Regarding the idea of life having "meaning", he says that "There is none. Don’t go looking for it. Looking for meaning is like looking for a rhyme scheme in a cookbook — you won’t find it, and it’ll bugger up your soufflé." Similarly, "don’t seek happiness. Happiness is like an orgasm. If you think about it too much, it goes away. Keep busy and aim to make someone else happy, and you might get some as a side effect. We didn’t evolve to be constantly content. Contented homo erectus got eaten before passing on their genes."

 

He goes on: "A famous bon mot asserts that opinions are like a-s-s-holes, in that everyone has one. There is great wisdom in this, but I would add that opinions differ significantly from a-s-s-holes, in that yours should be constantly and thoroughly examined. ... We must think critically, and not just about the ideas of others. Be hard on your beliefs — take them out on the veranda and hit them with a cricket bat. Be intellectually rigorous. Identify your biases, your prejudices, your privileges. Most of society’s arguments are kept alive by a failure to acknowledge nuance. We tend to generate false dichotomies, then argue one point using two entirely different sets of assumptions, like two tennis players trying to win a match by hitting beautifully-executed shots from either end of separate tennis courts."

 

In conclusion, he offers this: "There is only one sensible thing to do with this empty existence, and that is, fill it. And in my opinion, until I change it, life is best filled by learning as much as you can about as much as you can, taking pride in whatever you’re doing, sharing ideas, running, being enthusiastic. And then there’s love and travel and wine and sex and art and kids and giving and mountain climbing, but you know all that stuff already. It’s an incredibly exciting thing, this one, meaningless life of yours!"

 

In short, OP.... don't seek meaning, and don't seek happiness. Seek experience. Seek those moments that take your breath away, but remember that while you might find them on the top of a mountain, you might also find them in music, in art, in sex, in love, in sports, in the design of a seashell, and in any number of things. And yes, maybe even in one of the religions. It's all up to you. Seek experience, and you will probably find sufficient happiness and meaning along the way.

 

MM81

Edited June 19, 2014 by Madman81

[littleplanet]

I too started out on a spiritual journey in life.....at the age of 3.

It continues still.

 

Thing is though, I'm not a joiner. (except for boy scouts)

Never was, and never will be.

Being a member of the human race is all the joining I need.

 

I figured out as a kid, that if I've got something inside me that is that precious for all the fightin' going on to somehow gain control of it.....name it and claim it......something immortal......

Well then, it's out on loan. Ain't mine to sell.

 

I figured if faith and truth don't dance together - then that's a fox in the chickenhouse, and them chickens are in big trouble.

 

There are a lot of humans on this planet enslaved to something.

But there are a lot who aren't.

The template for goodness and decency is still free (though many squabble over the ownership of it.)

 

OP, that was a great opening post.

I agree. Blind acceptance never opens hearts and minds.

It is a glorious journey. Nature herself is not good or evil (except when we try to define her) but whatever happens to be beyond our understanding in the moment.....humans remain as natural as ever. All to the good.

[firmness]

Thanks for all these responses. Most of the posts that go back to religion as some sort of answers make huge assumptions that are based only on the faith that claims them.

 

Saying things like "Skeptics have no loyalty" is absolutely bizarre and sick - apart from being blatantly false. Take out the word "Skeptic" and insert the word "Jew" or "Black" or "Woman" - it should sound offensive.

 

Saying things like "Nature is our sister" is a horrible metaphor. I can try to convince my sister - as a peer - to do or not do a thing. There is no negotiating with nature. We can influence it, but it is what it is. We are beholden to nature - not the other way around - so it is more of a God than God is. God NEEDS worshipers, Nature does not.

 

Saying things like "OP is on a long journey and this is just the beginning. This may or may not be true, but I can tell you that I have come THROUGH Christian/Abrahamic beliefs to emerge on the other side a more complex, more ethical, more humble and respectful, happier man. I am encouraging others to do the same.

 

Finally, if one has only scripture to bolster one's beliefs, then that sort of shows how bereft of real meaning the belief system is. It is like claiming that Lord Voldemort is really God because it says so in Harry Potter - and every time someone tries to tell me otherwise I just start quoting from the book. That is what I think the responder meant when they said "Scary" . It is very scary indeed!

 

Thanks for taking the time folks. If one person can read these words and come through the falseness of all of those myths and emerge through the clouds then this is all worth it.

[umirano]

Finally, if one has only scripture to bolster one's beliefs, then that sort of shows how bereft of real meaning the belief system is. It is like claiming that Lord Voldemort is really God because it says so in Harry Potter - and every time someone tries to tell me otherwise I just start quoting from the book. That is what I think the responder meant when they said "Scary" . It is very scary indeed!

 

Beautifully and eloquently put, as is the rest of your post. The fallacy that you're pointing out and which believers make time and again, in complete disregard of all rebuttals, has a name: Courtier's Reply

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_Reply

 

I'll quote the original author's (PZ Myer) analogy, which is rhetorically equivalent to the OP's Harry Potter analogy, it is about a certain Mr Dawkins pointing out the emperor's nudity (based on the famous story of a king without clothes and none of his courtiers daring to call him naked)

 

I have considered the impudent accusations of Mr Dawkins with exasperation at his lack of serious scholarship. He has apparently not read the detailed discourses of Count Roderigo of Seville on the exquisite and exotic leathers of the Emperor’s boots, nor does he give a moment’s consideration to Bellini’s masterwork, On the Luminescence of the Emperor’s Feathered Hat. We have entire schools dedicated to writing learned treatises on the beauty of the Emperor’s raiment, and every major newspaper runs a section dedicated to imperial fashion; Dawkins cavalierly dismisses them all. He even laughs at the highly popular and most persuasive arguments of his fellow countryman, Lord D. T. Mawkscribbler, who famously pointed out that the Emperor would not wear common cotton, nor uncomfortable polyester, but must, I say must, wear undergarments of the finest silk. Dawkins arrogantly ignores all these deep philosophical ponderings to crudely accuse the Emperor of nudity.

[Yamaha]

So many questions about my faith

 

So what are your questions?

From your responses I don't see your questions.

 

religion as some sort of answer

nature - is more of a God than God is.

if one has only scripture to bolster one's beliefs, then that sort of shows how bereft of real meaning the belief system is

read these words and come through the falseness of all of those myths and emerge through the clouds

I never truly believed in God

The most beautiful answer that transcends all myths, legends, and other feeble explanations is nature herself

The natural and manmade world - the universe, is far more wondrous than any bible could ever be

Now I fear religion. It seems petty and small and sleazy

There is not an atrocity that I can think of that some Christian or Muslim could not just shoosh away

so many people live in fear of death, the afterlife, superstition, they will never be free of it.

 

So, I guess I am wondering what your faith questions are?

You don't ask questions. Your post is an attempt to show those of faith how folly and fearful their faith is. Why disguise the truth?

If you think God and religion is a bunch of bunk, then come out and say it.

You want us to think you were this fearful Christian and now. through experience and study, you have found the truth and no longer need faith and God, then own it.

Be who you are.

 

God will be sad but he won't deny you your free will.

You have the right to live your life the way you desire. He gave you that life.

If at some point in your life you question again if there is a God, he will be there to listen to you. He has not given up on you.

God is an awesome God and he made you and all things for his own purposes. We do not understand all things but we are given enough to make our decisions pertaining to him.

You have made your decision, and that is your right, but that does not make it true. It is hard for you to understand why some hold fast to this God that enslaves us and demands worship. The truth is we are free. Free to believe and love him. We choose to worship him. We are not blinded by religion.

I understand you can't accept this and it seems like hooey and mind control.

I didn't believe once but he didn't give up on me.

I wish you well on your journey!

Peace to you!

[Madman81]

You have made your decision, and that is your right, but that does not make it true.

Can you acknowledge the same thing about your decision?

[pureinheart]

So what are your questions?

From your responses I don't see your questions.

 

So, I guess I am wondering what your faith questions are?

You don't ask questions. Your post is an attempt to show those of faith how folly and fearful their faith is. Why disguise the truth?

If you think God and religion is a bunch of bunk, then come out and say it.

You want us to think you were this fearful Christian and now. through experience and study, you have found the truth and no longer need faith and God, then own it.

Be who you are.

 

God will be sad but he won't deny you your free will.

You have the right to live your life the way you desire. He gave you that life.

If at some point in your life you question again if there is a God, he will be there to listen to you. He has not given up on you.

God is an awesome God and he made you and all things for his own purposes. We do not understand all things but we are given enough to make our decisions pertaining to him.

You have made your decision, and that is your right, but that does not make it true. It is hard for you to understand why some hold fast to this God that enslaves us and demands worship. The truth is we are free. Free to believe and love him. We choose to worship him. We are not blinded by religion.

I understand you can't accept this and it seems like hooey and mind control.

I didn't believe once but he didn't give up on me.

I wish you well on your journey!

Peace to you!

 

This is what I didn't get and thought I was missing something- guess not. Anyway, good to see you Y:)

[firmness]

So what are your questions?

From your responses I don't see your questions.

...Be who you are.

...I wish you well on your journey!

...Peace to you!

 

Thanks for the response. You are right - I did not post my actual faith questions. Sorry to disappoint. It is my hope that my comments will serve as an opportunity for true and open dialogue.

 

It has been my experience that folks who have faith rarely, if ever, come to the table with a true open mind and a willingness to reject God. They are just capable of doing this - and hence the key problem with such belief systems.

 

I look forward to the day when a religious person says to me - "firmness, thank you for pointing out these myriad inconsistencies. I was raised to believe and I realize how that kills my ability to truly think critically and my ability to ever listen - openly and honestly- to opposing views. I will think about what you have said. You have made me question my faith in a fundamental way and this may be a good thing for me."

 

I look forward to that day. But for now, the only people who have ever said things like this to me are very educated people and atheists. In fact this is another thing that led me through that darkness.

 

It feels good to be free from supporting organizations that worship and revere torture crosses, dead bodies, jealous gods, global floods, genocide, child rape, inquisitions, and infanticide, etc.

 

Therein you will find many questions. But I trust the intellect of the average reader here to know that they can figure out the questions on their own. Perhaps believers are not capable of this?

[famethrowa]

Congrats Firmness. If only there were more people like you who see through the sleaze ball salesmanship of religion and GET THE HELL OUT.

[OpenBook]

"... Be hard on your beliefs — take them out on the veranda and hit them with a cricket bat."

 

Love this... and I'm a card-carrying Christian!

[bippy123]

Now I fear religion. It seems petty and small and sleazy. Every time I point out an atrocity in the bible I get people saying either "Hey! That is not MY Jesus - my personal God is the God of love..." or the familiar "God works in mysterious ways..."

 

Both of these are disgusting sleazy responses to very real moral and ethical questions - which is why it makes religion seem even worse.

 

There is not an atrocity that I can think of that some Christian or Muslim could not just shoosh away. And it is the apparent ease and flippant nature of that shooshing that scares me.

 

 

Religion is simply a strong belief in something, it isn't a 100% blind faith in something without any evidence to back it up.

I had some problems understanding the supposed atrocities in the old testament until I start researching the culture of the times, the purpose of the mosaic laws as well as God's reasons for executing his judgments.

 

 

Every supposed atrocity in the old testament can be answered with a little bit of research and I have gone thorough most of them. On the surface what God ordered against the Canaanites (my ancestors lol) seemed brutal until I researched and understood the full story in the context of that culture. Now I don't have a problem with any of them whatsoever.

 

 

Another example is the slavery of the old testament. Looking at it through the shallow eyes of someone who just glossed over it and didn't bother to look into it further it would shake a Young Christians faith, but when researching the whole story you get that AH-HA moment .

 

 

The reason why the old testament is harder then the new testament is that it was a different law and a very different culture and time. You need to take all of these into consideration.

 

 

Back to slavery in the OT. Most people would never understand that the word for slavery in Hebrew wasn't meant to mean involuntary slavery. It was more like servitude. In essence It was a voluntary servitude like having a butler or Maid. They did this to make sure that even the poor were taken care of. Kind of like a welfare system but one that truly benefitted the poor.

 

 

If you only read the OT in English without understanding the whole picture your gonna be rattled, but this rattling isn't over the truth of the bible but its over getting only 50% of the picture.

 

 

This whole I love Christ but I hate religion is a new thing, it was never believed or practiced by the early Christians starting with the apostles and the students of the apostles (the apostolic fathers)

 

 

When God scolded the pharasees and compared them to a brood of vipers he wasn't railing against all religion, he was railing against the wrong religion in which these high priests would exalt in themselves. Jesus even said to follow their teachings of scripture because they have the teaching authority of the Chair of Moses, but do not act like they outside their position of authority.

Edited August 1, 2014 by bippy123

[quankanne]

Thanks for the response. You are right - I did not post my actual faith questions. Sorry to disappoint. It is my hope that my comments will serve as an opportunity for true and open dialogue.

 

It has been my experience that folks who have faith rarely, if ever, come to the table with a true open mind and a willingness to reject God. They are just capable of doing this - and hence the key problem with such belief systems.

 

I look forward to the day when a religious person says to me - "firmness, thank you for pointing out these myriad inconsistencies. … I look forward to that day. But for now, the only people who have ever said things like this to me are very educated people and atheists. In fact this is another thing that led me through that darkness.

 

It feels good to be free from supporting organizations that worship and revere torture crosses, dead bodies, jealous gods, global floods, genocide, child rape, inquisitions, and infanticide, etc.

 

Therein you will find many questions. But I trust the intellect of the average reader here to know that they can figure out the questions on their own. Perhaps believers are not capable of this?

 

sounds like you've swapped your belief in God via a religion for something that pokes a stick at it, because it doesn't meet whatever goals you've established for it. And that's okay, because it's YOUR spiritual journey. No one can live it but you.

 

and in that vein, you cannot live the journey for the rest of us – what works for you ("free from supporting organizations that worship and revere blah blah") doesn't necessarily work for someone else. I'm not the best at practicing my faith the way I'm called to do so, but I do believe what the Church teaches and try to adhere to that in how I am in life. And really, that's much more important to me than to call down someone who doesn't follow the same catechism I do, because I'm thinking that the best way to "explain" my belief to someone is to live it unhesitatingly.

 

am I going to figure it out on my own? No, probably not, because man is not created to act independently, no matter how he convinces himself otherwise. Everything is an influence ...

[pie2]

Religion is simply a strong belief in something, it isn't a 100% blind faith in something without any evidence to back it up.

I had some problems understanding the supposed atrocities in the old testament until I start researching the culture of the times, the purpose of the mosaic laws as well as God's reasons for executing his judgments.

 

 

Every supposed atrocity in the old testament can be answered with a little bit of research and I have gone thorough most of them. On the surface what God ordered against the Canaanites (my ancestors lol) seemed brutal until I researched and understood the full story in the context of that culture. Now I don't have a problem with any of them whatsoever.

 

 

Another example is the slavery of the old testament. Looking at it through the shallow eyes of someone who just glossed over it and didn't bother to look into it further it would shake a Young Christians faith, but when researching the whole story you get that AH-HA moment .

 

 

The reason why the old testament is harder then the new testament is that it was a different law and a very different culture and time. You need to take all of these into consideration.

 

 

Back to slavery in the OT. Most people would never understand that the word for slavery in Hebrew wasn't meant to mean involuntary slavery. It was more like servitude. In essence It was a voluntary servitude like having a butler or Maid. They did this to make sure that even the poor were taken care of. Kind of like a welfare system but one that truly benefitted the poor.

 

I completely agree with you bippy. Understanding the culture of the times is crucial to the meaning of some of what the bible is expressing. Many people who show frustration for some of the things that happened in the past seem to have no patience to understand that the culture was totally different (in many ways) from modern Western culture.

 

If there are cultural practices going on TODAY that are difficult to understand, it's even more difficult to fully grasp the customs, attitudes, etc of a society 2000-5000 years ago!

 

Take the war in Gaza (side note: I'm very ignorant on this subject). People are doing things and acting in ways I do NOT understand (like staying in a war zone...?). But they have motives and meanings behind their actions that I can't fully understand.

 

When God scolded the pharasees and compared them to a brood of vipers he wasn't railing against all religion, he was railing against the wrong religion in which these high priests would exalt in themselves. Jesus even said to follow their teachings of scripture because they have the teaching authority of the Chair of Moses, but do not act like they outside their position of authority.

 

I think you're probably right, in a way. But when many people say they don't agree with "religion", I think they're referring to outward rules, regulations and acts that make the person appear, or think they are, closer to God, while ignoring the true heart and soul connection with God. I think it's just a term that has taken on another, slightly derogatory, meaning at times.