A theory about lonely nice guys

[MoreCoffee]

I think it might come back to the "putting on pedestal." Because of that initial perspective, everything forward from that fails. The field research proves women respond better to the "neg" or teasing, push pulling etc. than the "I lay my world at your feet." Feh, I know what works. There are books and books on "how to score." I just don't want to go there.

 

I'll stay on my island.

[you_can_not_see_me]

Sure I was disappointed, but he doesn't have to date me because I baked him a cake.

 

It was something nice that I wanted to do.

 

This is what people are complaining about. Nice guys expect women do fall in line because he did X,Y,Z. The point of the story about the cake was to illustrate that I didn't get upset because I baked him a cake and he didn't date me. It was not tit for tat and shouldn't be tit for tat. That's the part of relationships that nice guys miss.

 

I've had guys come and say it,"I have bee nice to you and waiting for so long, why aren't we having sex/dating?"

"I texted you and talked to you, now you're dating him?" It's always I did this, so date me/sex me b****!

I don't care what some "nice men" say or do, that wasn't my point. I just said its normal to be upset and let down when you run into unrequited attraction. No guy should feel ashamed for feeling down because of it. Of course no guy should feel entitled to sex with a girl because of friendship either.

[you_can_not_see_me]

one some level I can see where some so called nice guys come from.

 

There have been a few cases where I went out of my way to talk and interact with a certain girl more because I thought of her as a possible dating option. When I made my intentions clear and the girl told me she has a boyfriend, it did make me regret the extra time I spent with the girl, because in all honesty even though the girl was a nice and interesting person, I really wasn't looking for a new friend in her and if I wasn't romantically interested in her I would have probably ignored her for the most part.

 

Of course none of this was the girl's fault, but it didn't change the fact that the time I spent with her did feel like waste of time. That doesn't mean I hated the girl or anything though.

[somedude81]

A lot of people complain about their spouses.

 

See, when people complain about others, they usually do it in a way that makes the other person look bad and themselves look good. Human nature.

 

If someone complains that doesn't mean they are intending to leave. I know people with some serious and legit gripes against the other partner, but it took them a long time to leave.

 

 

Why are you trying to gloss over him chasing someone taken? Would you like for someone to chase your gf? Do nice guys not have to follow the golden rule?

If I was disrespecting my girlfriend and not treating her right, then yes, she should be open to other guys trying to win her over.

 

That's exactly how I got my last GF.

 

She had some serious issues with her BF, but for whatever reason, she didn't want to leave him until she found a guy to take his place; me.

 

I do not know why many women prefer to be in a toxic relationship instead of being single and alone, but that's just the way it is.

[somedude81]

one some level I can see where some so called nice guys come from.

 

There have been a few cases where I went out of my way to talk and interact with a certain girl more because I thought of her as a possible dating option. When I made my intentions clear and the girl told me she has a boyfriend, it did make me regret the extra time I spent with the girl, because in all honesty even though the girl was a nice and interesting person, I really wasn't looking for a new friend in her and if I wasn't romantically interested in her I would have probably ignored her for the most part.

 

Of course none of this was the girl's fault, but it didn't change the fact that the time I spent with her did feel like waste of time. That doesn't mean I hated the girl or anything though.

That happens a lot to me.

 

What starts to really bug me is when these girls are trying to actually be my friend and hang out with me. I have to be polite and make excuses for why I can't spend time with them.

 

Unfortunately I just can't tell them that I only want to date them, and have no actual interest in just being their friend.

[Monm82]

Some guys are generally just too nice. It's not just a ploy or "They're not really nice".

 

Then there are guys who are decent, not overly nice, but have very standard or dull lives/personalities.

 

Not attractive sexual traits to most women, unfortunately.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Monm82

[hotpotato]

If I was disrespecting my girlfriend and not treating her right, then yes, she should be open to other guys trying to win her over.

 

That's exactly how I got my last GF.

 

She had some serious issues with her BF, but for whatever reason, she didn't want to leave him until she found a guy to take his place; me.

 

I do not know why many women prefer to be in a toxic relationship instead of being single and alone, but that's just the way it is.

 

OK. We're gonna have to agree to disagree with this one.

 

Your thinking is going to put you at risk for a lot of bs.

[hotpotato]

Sure, when it is phony, it can come across as phony. Also, I think a lot of people like to say it's phony, just because they don't want to believe that someone is being that nice just because they ARE nice.

 

Most of the time it IS phony.

 

The problem the nice guys have is that a girl complains that her boyfriends treats her like dirt, he treats her well, and yet she always goes for the guys who treat her like dirt. It's the fact that so many women say they want a guy who treats them right, but never seem to date one. This attitude confuses men.

 

If she wants to stay, let her. It's her prerogative. I'm trying to explain this. There are two sides to every story. He might be disrespectful, but she might be a total b*****. We shouldn't assume she is a victim in need of a white in shining armor to save her because she complains about her boyfriend.

 

If she is still with him, he is doing something for her, obviously. Maybe he isn't the nicest guy, but just being nice isn't going to attract and keep a mate.

 

Sure, but it doesn't seem like there is much more to losing attraction than being nice.

Women can smell passive aggressive...

 

The desperation thing always got to me. Sometimes it isn't so much desperation, just anxiousness because the person may be REALLY into you. That's another thing I noticed long ago. If I really want a girl, instead of acting honestly, I have much better odds if I act aloof. Most women don't seem to want a man who openly shows that he wants her.

I'm fine with a guy expressing his interest in me. However, if he starts with the passive aggressive "nice" behavior, that makes me really uncomfortable.

 

 

It's not quite so simple. Think about the white knight stuff people always talk about. That's how many of us are. We have some seemingly nice girl, always complaining about how poorly her girlfriend treats her, and our instinct to take care of, and protect women kicks in. We feel like we are saving her from that guy.

 

I see that!

 

If I was single, and a girl baked me a cake, I'd be thrilled. Not just because I got a cake, but by the fact that she could actually bake. Was it from scratch? If so, that would definitely earn a date here.

Of course, it was from scratch.

 

Did you say tit? Sorry, I got side tracked for a moment. Most guys don't look at it as a transaction. Most of them truly believe that women want a man to be good to them. What they don't realize is that chemistry and attraction are priority one, and that being nice will just make them come off as desperate.

 

That's true for men and for women.

 

 

 

 

I don't care what some "nice men" say or do, that wasn't my point. I just said its normal to be upset and let down when you run into unrequited attraction. No guy should feel ashamed for feeling down because of it. Of course no guy should feel entitled to sex with a girl because of friendship either.

 

No one said it was abnormal to be upset or disappointed.

[ltjg45]

The amount of hyperbole in this thread catches me off guard.

 

Why is it impossible to be a genuinely nice person without some kind of hidden motive, or underlying passive aggressive tendencies?

 

I don't know why. People call me a "nice guy" and I am so temped to tell them that, if the opportunity presents itself, I can easily be a jackass so please don't test me.

 

I am only nice because it is a part of me. Abuse it and you will get the nasty side of me. You have been warned.

 

I don't ever want to hear me being linked to the "nice guy" label again.

[ChessPieceFace]

Bullied then and bullied now, even in this thread.

[Glinda.Good]

If the girl is constantly complaining about her boyfriend and talks about all the rude things he does and says to her, my guess is that he's a jerk.

 

If she does that, then SHE is a jerk, regardless of what he is or is not doing. Constantly complaining about your mate is not okay. If you need to talk about some things with a good friend, that is one thing.

 

Anybody who is constantly complaining and spelling out all the insults needs to get out of the relationship or face the fact that they have chosen this and quiet down.

[Glinda.Good]

I'm getting tired of this shaming of nice guys, incels, forever alone men etc.

 

I sure don't have any desire to shame them.

 

This attempt to try and paint them as sneaking seducers with entitlement issues is short-sighted and an attack on the kinder aspects of the fabric of our society.

 

People who "act" nice and understanding only because of an ulterior motive, and then get bitter and angry when their plan does not go as they'd wished, are not a part of the kinder aspects. They are just as self serving as the so-called "jerks," only more passive about it.

 

There are plenty of truly nice people with hurting hearts because the person they love and do kind things for only sees them as a friend. This is completely different from the embittered, entitled "nice guy" archetype.

 

Throwing up boundaries like let's just be friends" or "I don't want to ruin our friendship" doesn't suddenly turn them into a passive eunuch! Their desires and passions don't suddenly dissolve.

 

Where is the blame on the women in this? Women are routinely reported to be more adept at picking-up non-verbal signals. If you can tell a guy that you have no attraction for has feelings for you why do you think it's alright to lure him along as a friend?

 

There is NO "blame" for women in this.

 

If she says she would like to be friends, she has every right to do so - even if she knows you "like" her. So what, does that mean she can't want to be friends with you? YOU don't have to be friends, if it does not work for YOU. But she has no responsibility to take care of you emotionally, even if she can read non verbal signals well.

 

Our only recourse was to go along as the platonic friend and hope foolishly that the young woman might finally see our worth or simply that we might grow on them.

 

Or, something entirely different might happen that you have not even acknowledged: You might actually come to see HER worth, as a person, who you value in your life even if you are not having sex with her as you'd like. I mean, her worth to you as a FRIEND. That is not worthless, you know.

 

If you rejected the offer of friend and walked away you were considered more of a lout than a love-em and leave-em he-man. Plus that sort of strong tactic went against our gentler nature and our old-fashioned upbringing.

 

I think you are spinning an off kilter fantasy.

 

Keep it simple. If YOU don't want to be friends with a woman, DON'T.

[somedude81]

If she does that, then SHE is a jerk, regardless of what he is or is not doing. Constantly complaining about your mate is not okay. If you need to talk about some things with a good friend, that is one thing.

 

Anybody who is constantly complaining and spelling out all the insults needs to get out of the relationship or face the fact that they have chosen this and quiet down.

 

I agree with you. But for some reason many women will choose to stay in a bad relationship. I see this all over the forum and in real life.

 

Many women would rather be in a bad relationship than be alone.

[Smilecharmer]

I don't know why. People call me a "nice guy" and I am so temped to tell them that, if the opportunity presents itself, I can easily be a jackass so please don't test me.

 

I am only nice because it is a part of me. Abuse it and you will get the nasty side of me. You have been warned.

 

I don't ever want to hear me being linked to the "nice guy" label again.

 

I think the label is being misused here. Passive nice guys who are only nice because they want something from the girl isn't really nice. I think you and Keenly are really good guys, who can be pleasant even if you don't want to nail someone. Some guys get mad if you don't want to sleep with them if they have invested a conversation with you and they say stuff like, I was so nice to her and she still wouldn't give it up. You don't know how boorish they can be and how scared we can get as women. This happened to me when I was a young girl, and I was a virgin and some creep said this to me before I even knew anything about how to deflect a guy who is only nice to get something. It happened again in college and I knew then how to extract myself by pretending to have a jealous boyfriend which they accept because I can't possibly not want to be with them unless I have a bf. These aren't nice guys is what people are saying, they are nice to get something and if they don't get it they act like they are taking the red pill, and we have somehow used our feminine wiles or something to entice them and to tease them when we are often trying to be nice. Genuinely nice guys are a turn on, but these guys aren't genuinely nice.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Smilecharmer

[Badsingularity]

But for some reason many women will choose to stay in a bad relationship.

 

Sometimes it's because, despite her annoyance, he makes her feel a certain way and she is strongly attracted to him.

[Taramere]

I also wonder what exactly a jerk is.

 

Of course, when we like someone we go out of our way to make them happy. At the same time, there is a differencd from a man being gallant and a passive aggressive nice guy.

 

How do we know for sure all these bfs are being jerks? How do we know for sure the relationship dynamics?

 

I wonder if passive aggressive nice guys are confusing assertive and straight forward with being a jerk???

 

When I was a teen, my older brother and one or two of his friends would always sneer about any boy I liked being "a poof". I genuinely did like nice guys, since they were a welcome break. My brother tended to be a bully and to undermine my confidence constantly when we were kids. A couple of his friends did the same. Those of his friends who were nice to me formed a model for the kind of boy/man I wanted to be with.

 

So men were either tormentors or rescuers, but couldn't possibly be both. As I got a bit older, I started to test out standing up for myself against some of the tormentors. My relationship with my brother improved, and he went from being a feared tormentor to, more often, a friendly supporter of me standing up for myself. I began to accept that he'd struggled with his own demons and that we were both essentially engaged in the task of trying to manage an often difficult world. To balance trying to be a nice person with not being walked all over by people who would perceive niceness as weakness.

 

There aren't many people out there who are just plain "jerks". People who are desperate to split the rest of the world into Nice Guys and *******s are going to find themselves disappointed by human nature over and over again. I've taken many a jaunt down the self pity and splitting ("poor me, I'm so nice and other people are just bastards) path myself. People who say it comes from being bullied when you were younger may have a point. It's a place of victimhood from which it's hard to perceive other people as anything other than potential rescuers, persecutors or fellow victims.

 

I think the thing is not to lambast oneself for being inclined towards that Nice Guy/Nice Girl who is sometimes a bit of a doormat and has spent a fair bit of time in the victim role. It's to develop self awareness and recognise that sometimes you really do have to behave in ways that don't really gel with your basic temperament and belief systems. To move out of your comfort zone and develop interactional tools for those times when Being Nice just doesn't isn't going work. To try to develop the art of doing it without being a complete arsehole and without losing your basic values. To accept that there is such a thing as genuine victimhood, but that just because there have been times you genuinely were a victim, it doesn't mean that has to identify who you are in the normal course of events.

 

The last part is where I sense a struggle for some men. When they take that "No more Nice Guy, women like jerks and so that's what I'll be. From now on I'll be a total douchebag. I have to stop being the victim or rescuer and start being the persecutor." It suggests a very flaky sense of self. Okay, if the guy in question is 14 years old...but when grown men talk like that it leaves you thinking "does this person have no real temperament or personality, if it's easy - or even possible - for them to totally reinvent who they are? Don't they realise that what they really need to do is snap out of this drama cycle and start behaving like an adult?"

 

I can think of times in my teens and early twenties when other people were probably trying to teach me that my version of being nice could be (or could at least be perceived as by others) a bit manipulative. It's not a good or easy message to hear, and to be honest I think most people are probably not up to the teaching of it. Not in a way that's going to achieve anything positive. Probably the easiest and least painful way to learn it is for the Nice Guy or Nice Girl to read up on co-dependency - and to do so not with an open mind. ie ready to accept that they might have co-dependent aspects, but that this doesn't mean they're an awful person. It just means that they are, as people say, a work in progress. Maturity is something even the mature have to keep working at sometimes.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Taramere

[ascendotum]

Sometimes it's because, despite her annoyance, he makes her feel a certain way and she is strongly attracted to him.

 

Correct...and so is SD.

[Noproblem]

I think you are somehow right.

[Taramere]

Yes and no. Being nice is actually supposed to help you attract people who are also nice. Sort of like a "treat people as you want to be treated" kind of thing. If you act nice, you'll get treated in kind. In general, sometimes you meet crappy people.

 

It's very similar to why people respect each other's property rights. You hope that yours will be respect in kind. Won't always happen, but in general it holds true.

 

If you're a pleasant person who doesn't cheat, lie, steal, needlessly make fun of others, and so on, you hope that you will be treated the same by other people. In the world of dating though, this does not hold true. Lots and lots of terrible human beings get dates, girlfriends, wives and all of that every day.

 

The conclusion isn't to become a bad guy. The conclusion is that if you're struggling with women, it's likely because you're unattractive in some way. Could be physical, could be mental, could be anything really. It's also likely to never change. Best to just live with it.

 

I liked the first part of this, forty, but not so much the second. Don't give way to that negativity. Some people do stay single. I'm one of them - and I think that has more to do with me just not putting myself out there than it does with not being partner material. I suspect the same is true of many men who are single. If you do end up being single - well, it's still eminently possible to be happy in that state, and it's certainly far better than being in a bad relationship.

[hotpotato]

Trust me, I know this now. I've had a lot of my female friends hit on me over the years, and it usually starts with her complaining about her boyfriend. I would always think those guys were obviously douchebags until I found out my ex wife was doing the same thing to me when I was married. She went around telling people all sorts of lies about me, and than I started to think about all those "doucehbag" boyfriends I've heard about over the years.

 

Yep!

 

Honestly, I just think that men and women look at things differently, and this is we we struggle so much with this topic. Girl says she wishes she had a nice guy, guy hears this and tries to be nice, girl never goes out with nice guy. Nice guy left wondering WTF went wrong.

 

Just being nice won't get a date. That's some serious bamboozlement. :/

I think in dating it's better to watch what people do instead of listening to what they say. I've learned this the hard way lol

 

Well, then that guy was an idiot. It takes quite a bit of effort to make a cake from scratch. Cooking me a decent meal is probably the surest way to get a date from me.

 

Awww!

 

I agree with you. But for some reason many women will choose to stay in a bad relationship. I see this all over the forum and in real life.

 

Many women would rather be in a bad relationship than be alone.

 

How do you know what their relationship is like? Are you a fly on the wall? Or sometimes one person exaggerates their story to make themselves look like a victim. Maybe one day if someone pulls that number on you, you'll understand.

Edited July 1, 2014 by hotpotato